The last charge (Knights Templar are back...)

The Guardian (U.K.) ^ | 3-19-08 | Patrick Barkham

[wideawake]

Did Jesus 'excommunicate' the Knights Templar or did the Pope do it?

The Knights Templar were not, as a body, excommunicated. Their order, as a canonical entity, was dissolved.

[Lurker]

The Knights Templar were not, as a body, excommunicated

But you said: "Anyone who claims to be a Knight Templar today is a member of a secret society and is, if Catholic, under a latae sententiae excommunication"

Talk about a distinction without a difference....

L

[wideawake]

Talk about a distinction without a difference....

The distinction is quite differentiated.

The original Knights Templar were not a secret society, but a religious order established according to the norms of canonical law.

Anyone who claims to be a Knight Templar today cannot claim membership in the original Knights Templar, since that order was dissolved as a canonical organization centuries ago.

The "Knights Templar" today are any of a number of secret societies that claim to be somehow occultly linked with that long-dissolved order. There is, of course, no actual, historical link.

Membership in a secret society incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

[Lurker]

The "Knights Templar" today are any of a number of secret societies that claim to be somehow occultly linked with that long-dissolved order.

Every one of them? You have proof of this?

Membership in a secret society incurs a latae sententiae excommunication

So if as a Catholic I had a 'secret society' called "Lurkers Secret Society" I would be automatically excommunicated?

Exactly which Pope wrote that?

L

[mnehring]

ping

[wideawake]

Every one of them? You have proof of this?

Name one person who claims to be a Knight Templar who believes he bears no relationship whatever with the original.

So if as a Catholic I had a 'secret society' called "Lurkers Secret Society" I would be automatically excommunicated?

So if as a Catholic I had a 'secret society' called "Lurkers Secret Society" I would be automatically excommunicated? Exactly which Pope wrote that?

Such a society would have to meet the criteria defined by Pope Clement XII back in 1738 - to summarize the bare essentials: a group whose rules require one to conceal his membership in the group from all non-members including even his family and pastors, which requires a solemn oath to be taken to conceal the secrets of the society, and which undertakes corporate actions or requires rules of conduct that are concealed from outsiders.

[Lurker]

Name one person who claims to be a Knight Templar who believes he bears no relationship whatever with the original.

How interesting that you won't answer my question.

It's a strong indicator that the person doing it is full of horse manure.

L

[wideawake]

How interesting that you won't answer my question.

Every KT claimant I have ever encountered in reality or on the web claims some kind of affinity with the historical Knights templar. That's the best I can do for you. Can you give me a counterexample?

You're getting pretty frustrated with my ability to definitely answer all your other questions, I see.

[Lurker]

Such a society would have to meet the criteria defined by Pope Clement XII back in 1738 - to summarize the bare essentials: a group whose rules require one to conceal his membership in the group from all non-members including even his family and pastors, which requires a solemn oath to be taken to conceal the secrets of the society, and which undertakes corporate actions or requires rules of conduct that are concealed from outsiders.

So every single undercover CIA and FBI agent is automatically excommunicated?

L

[mnehring]

The original Knights Templar were not a secret society, but a religious order established according to the norms of canonical law.

Thank you. It really is sad that this military order who really had an amazing and interesting history of its own is so buried in all the conspiracy theories and groups who want to claim to have some sort of connection. (IMHO, only one group has even the slightest claim to some sort of relationship, and they don't claim direct relationships, only inspiration and very lose family ties- but that isn't for here).

I believe we need to distribute copies of Foucault's Pendulum before they are allowed to continue to post.

[Lurker]

I believe we need to distribute copies of Foucault's Pendulum

Read it.

L

[mnehring]

The Knights Templar were not, as a body, excommunicated. Their order, as a canonical entity, was dissolved.

Right again, the Pastoralis Praeeminentiae (may have the spelling wrong on that) ordered the capture of all Templars for crimes against the crown and church, but only some individual leaders were excommunicated.

[mnehring]

Catholic definition of secret societies.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14071b.htm

[wideawake]

So every single undercover CIA and FBI agent is automatically excommunicated?

Not at all. Non-members of both organizations have investigative oversight of them, and the laws governing their activities are matters of public record, as are the oaths they take.

[rmichaelj]

widewake, you seem to have the patience of Job.

[wideawake]

You’re too kind.

[Natural Law]

Amazing isn't it. Those who claim to be the purest Biblical Literalists have given dominion over the interpretation of the word of God to past Popes and conventions of politically appointed Bishops, but deny any such authority to today's more enlightened and accountable members of the clergy. Go figure.