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I Confess: I Don't Understand Why Some Atheists Are So Angry
Taki's Top Drawer ^ | 5/11/08 | Tom Piatak

Posted on 05/11/2008 6:32:22 PM PDT by Thorin

Posted by Tom Piatak on May 10, 2008

In response to my recent piece on science and religion, one of the commenters, GM, took me to task: “you may want to consider and ask why atheists seem angry. There’s no indication that you understand why.” I have to confess, GM was right: I do not understand why some atheists are so angry.

I have no trouble understanding that some people cannot give intellectual assent to faith, and I have long known atheists and agnostics. But none of the atheists and agnostics I know are angry. In fact, they respect the role Christianity played in creating our civilization and plays today in the lives of millions. This attitude is unsurprising, since my nonbelieving friends are conservatives, and it is hardly possible for a conservative to hate the font of Western civilization. Not so the “new atheists” such as Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and PZ Myers, and their followers, who are defined by a bitter, all-consuming hatred of Christianity. We are a long way from the wistfulness of Dover Beach.

If anyone doubts the existence of this rage, I invite him to peruse the websites of Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers and such online forums as “Raving Atheists.” Once there, he will find a universe of people who regularly prattle on about how smart they are and how stupid believers are--there is a move afoot for atheists to identify themselves as “brights,” and Dawkins modestly bills his website as a “clear-thinking oasis"--and who think it a telling point to compare belief in God to belief in “the Flying Spaghetti Monster.” Not all the new atheists are equally angry--PZ Myers was taken aback when Christopher Hitchens called for the mass murder of Moslems at an atheist gathering--but none of them appears capable of approaching religion with equanimity. Only a disfiguring rage could lead the angry atheists to brand Benedict XVI, a gentle lover of felines and Mozart, who has also written dozens of books, a “sanctimonious monster,” in Myers’ phrase, or a “completely undistinguished human being,” in Hitchens’ words. This rage is directed at more than such unlikely targets as the Pope. Indeed, Dawkins’ website is now hawking a video in which he and Hitchens, Harris, and Dennett expore the question of whether religion is the “root of all evil.”

What a strange focus of inquiry for the angry atheists, all of whom grew up in America and Britain, one a nation with no state church, and the other a nation whose religious establishment is famously mild. I will admit, wondering whether religion is the “root of all evil” is not a question that naturally comes to mind when I Iisten to Christmas carols, or go to church and join with people who gather together out of a common love, or when I encounter any of the numerous examples of Christian charity that dot the American landscape. I am not led to wonder whether religion is the “root of all evil” when I read what social scientists have found, such as University of Virginia psychology professor (and atheist) Jonathan Haidt, who writes on his website that religious believers are “happier, healthier, longer-lived, and more generous to charity and to each other than are secular people.” (Hat tip to Russell Seitz for linking to Haidt on his blog). I am not caused to wonder whether religion is the “root of all evil” when I consider the history of the past century, which saw the most murderous war in human history fought for purely secular reasons, atheist regimes murder at least 100,000,000 people, and the great evil of Soviet Communism overcome in large part because the visit of Pope John Paul II to his homeland helped inspire a then unknown electrician and his compatriots in their strike at the Gdansk shipyards, a strike that saw the workers decorate the gates to the shipyard with images of John Paul and Our Lady of Czestochowa and which ended when that electrician, Lech Walesa, signed the Gdansk agreement with an oversized souvenir pen bearing a picture of the Pope, a pen so large that anyone watching on television was bound to be reminded of the one institution that had stood up to Communism from its beginning. I did not wonder whether religion was the “root of all evil” when I went to Europe last spring, and admired the great cathedral of Paris, marveled at the stained glass in Chartres, and was overwhelmed by the treasures of Italy, from the wonderful frescoes in Assisi, to the Caravaggio masterpieces lurking in a side altar in the neighborhood church five minutes from our hotel in Rome, to the glories of St. Peter’s and the apogee of Western art found in the Sistine Chapel, where Michelangelo vividly portrayed man’s origin on the ceiling and man’s destiny on the wall.

These are obvious points, but they do not trouble the new atheists, who are so removed from the way ordinary people experience religion, and so infatuated by the brilliance they detect in themselves, that they never seriously consider them. (Those interested in a more detailed response to the new atheists might enjoy my review of Hitchens’ atheist manifesto). GM informed me in the same post where he chided me for not understanding why atheists are so angry that “Dawkins and Myers...do not discount religion’s past role in culture a la Bach et al., both for good and ill.” But they do try to discount Bach. Both Hitchens and Dawkins claim that before Darwin, men had to believe in a creator, so it was possible for a genius like Bach to believe. But this is an evasion. Bach, who placed an invocation to God on each of his manuscripts--a practice also followed by Haydn--did not believe in an abstract, impersonal creator; he believed in the same God that the Christians so despised by the new atheists do today. Belief that the universe was in some manner created does not entail belief in Christianity or in any religion, and Bach and his contemporaries knew this. As Pascal, another genius on the level of Bach, wrote in the memorial of his own intense religious experience that he always kept with him, “Fire. God of Abraham, God of Isaac, God of Jacob, not of the philosophers and the scholars.”

Indeed, even many years after Darwin, geniuses continue to be found among those whose belief would disqualify them from the fellowship of the “brights.” To take just two examples, I suspect that Waugh and Tolkien will continue to be read and enjoyed long after the only place it will be possible to find a book by Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris will be the dusty backshelves of university libraries.

If anything, the constant need of the new atheists to belittle religious belief suggests a defensiveness, a need to reassure themselves that they are right. Not to mention its obvious obtuseness. Anyone wondering how an intelligent person could believe in “magical wafers” should wonder instead how anyone who has listened to this could ever refer to the Eucharist in such a manner, whether he believes in transubstantiation or not. Anyone who thinks “the Flying Spaghetti Monster” is the equivalent of God might wonder instead why no one who believes in such nonsense has ever written anything like the St. Matthew Passion

The new atheists would do well to ponder the wisdom of Charles Murray, who told Reason in an interview that “I’m not a believer, but I am also not nearly as confident as intellectuals were 50 or 60 years ago that I do know the truth. I am much less willing to say, boy was Johann Sebastian Bach deluded [because he believed in God].” And they might also ponder the words of Thomas Fleming, who wrote in his The Morality of Everyday Life that “After two thousand years the Christian religion, especially in its more traditional forms, is a vast treasury of philosophical and theological thought, poetry and art, ritual and custom. Even if there were no God and Christ were no greater than Mohammed, Christianity would offer the possibility of a rich and passionate life undreamed of by the village atheists who join objectivist circles and sue schoolteachers who tell Bible stories in class.” Or who go about making fools of themselves on the internet.


TOPICS: Religion; Society
KEYWORDS: atheists
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1 posted on 05/11/2008 6:32:22 PM PDT by Thorin
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To: NYer

Of possible interest.


2 posted on 05/11/2008 6:32:57 PM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin

Why are they so angry? Because, when they die, they’ll be all dressed up with nowhere to go.


3 posted on 05/11/2008 6:35:26 PM PDT by Buckeye Battle Cry (Life is too short to go through it clenched of sphincter and void of humor - it's okay to laugh.)
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To: Thorin

They are angry because they are scared they are wrong.


4 posted on 05/11/2008 6:36:47 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
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To: Thorin

bookmark for later


5 posted on 05/11/2008 6:37:36 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Thorin
The pearl of great price from your article: Even if there were no God and Christ were no greater than Mohammed, Christianity would offer the possibility of a rich and passionate life undreamed of by the village atheists who join objectivist circles and sue schoolteachers who tell Bible stories in class.” Or who go about making fools of themselves on the internet.

Heh. Lots of people on this forum, particularly on the evo threads, might take heed, but won't.......

6 posted on 05/11/2008 6:39:52 PM PDT by Lakeshark (Thank a member of the US armed forces for their sacrifice)
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To: All

I’ve heard a ton of aethists opine in 12-step meetings, and it’s my sense that they are mad because addicts hate to be told what to do, and they think that religion wants to fence them in.


7 posted on 05/11/2008 6:40:40 PM PDT by prolifefirst
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To: Thorin

It is a nice sounding theory that when you separate the Christian Church from the state, you get stability, but it does not pass the common sense test.

For instance, I know it is the first words out of any atheist mouth when you try to talk with them about Jesus, “Explain the Inquisition,” and “Look how evil the church was!” and “Look what they did in the name of Jesus!”

It is true that about 500 years ago, Christian fanatics killed about 10,000 people over a 100 year time period (about 100/year) in the name of the Roman Catholic church. It is a shame on the record of an organization that claims to be promoting the ministry of Christ. Now compare this record to the example of the countries that have officially done away with religion. To the countries that have outright banned religion and imprisoned those who try to practice it (the ultimate test of the theory of separation of church and state).

Yes, I am talking about Communist countries. In the Communist Manifesto, Engel and Marx declared, “Communism abolishes all religion.” In my father’s lifetime, the numbers of people that officially atheist countries have murdered in the name of no-religion is staggering; the USSR slaughtered 20 million, China slaughtered 10 million, Communist Cambodia slaughtered 2 million, Communist North Korea has/continues to murder untold numbers, Communist Cuba has/continues to murder untold numbers, the list goes on.

The grand total is over 50+ million dead in the last 80-year time span (over 600,000/year). Even comparing the worst time of “Christian Persecution” to an average time of a just one country that has officially and forcefully separated church and state, the conclusion is obvious: Christianity has a huge calming influence on government.


8 posted on 05/11/2008 6:41:08 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: Thorin

Atheism always strikes me as a noun that sugggests a limiting venue.


9 posted on 05/11/2008 6:41:10 PM PDT by stevem
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To: All

Denish D’Souza, in his book on aethism, says that almost all aethists would have stayed believers if religion didn’t try to contrain their sex desires.


10 posted on 05/11/2008 6:42:24 PM PDT by prolifefirst
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To: Thorin

Such atheists don’t really believe in their hearts that there is no God. They hate God for laying down rules. Atheists who really believe there is no God tend to be much more even-tempered, knowing that others’ belief is simply irrelevant to them.


11 posted on 05/11/2008 6:43:18 PM PDT by arthurus
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To: Thorin
they're intellectual bullies.

everyone knows that all bullies are cowards.

12 posted on 05/11/2008 6:44:39 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (I'm over it.)
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To: Thorin
If you're actually interested in understanding the atheist point of view, perhaps I can help. I am not religious, so I am what many people would call an atheist (although I don't agree with all of the beliefs ascribed to atheists in this forum).

I warn you that 1) I can't speak for Hitchens, Dawkins, et al, and 2) exploring a non-religious viewpoint requires a degree of broadmindedness that some religious people seem to find quite uncomfortable.

13 posted on 05/11/2008 6:51:00 PM PDT by xenophiles
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To: 2banana

Puh-leeze. The claim of only 100 murders per year for all of Europe during the inquisitions and witch hunts does not pass the laugh test.


14 posted on 05/11/2008 6:52:26 PM PDT by steve-b (The "intelligent design" hoax is not merely anti-science; it is anti-civilization. --John Derbyshire)
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To: steve-b

Why don’t you tell us the real number then?


15 posted on 05/11/2008 6:54:53 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (Et si omnes ego non)
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To: prolifefirst

Yea....those pesky TEN COMMANDMENTS


16 posted on 05/11/2008 6:55:39 PM PDT by goodnesswins (Liberals learning curves are pretty flat,)
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To: Thorin
The only reason any atheist would be angry is because he or she has never read The Good News of the non-synoptic John persuasion. If someone ever read it to him or her, he or she has never taken a run at understanding it. For John defies you to continue loathing...others AND self.
17 posted on 05/11/2008 6:57:56 PM PDT by stevem
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To: steve-b
Current historical scholarship suggests that the number of people exectuted by the Spanish Inquisition over its history of nearly 400 years is approximately 3,000 to 5,000: takimag.com/blogs/article/i_confess_i_dont_understand_why_some_atheists_are_so_angry/

There are also documented instances of persons in royal courts blaspheming so that they would be transferred to the jurisdiction of inquisatorial courts, which were less severe than royal courts.

18 posted on 05/11/2008 6:59:07 PM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin

bump for later read


19 posted on 05/11/2008 7:01:27 PM PDT by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: steve-b

Here’s the correct link on the Inquisition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition


20 posted on 05/11/2008 7:01:56 PM PDT by Thorin ("I won't be reconstructed, and I do not give a damn.")
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To: Thorin

Misery loves company.


21 posted on 05/11/2008 7:03:16 PM PDT by RBroadfoot
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To: Thorin

Because these athiests are Marxists who’s god is the State, and the state is a jealous god.


22 posted on 05/11/2008 7:04:30 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (No prisoners. No mercy. Fight back or STFU!!!)
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To: 2banana
It is true that about 500 years ago, Christian fanatics killed about 10,000 people over a 100 year time period (about 100/year) in the name of the Roman Catholic church

And 800 years ago they killed half a million for the same reason

Like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Kims, the various Popes killed for one reason: maintaining absolute power.

There's your problem, not atheism, or religion.

23 posted on 05/11/2008 7:07:11 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Holy State or Holy King - Or Holy People's Will - Have no truck with the senseless thing)
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To: xenophiles
exploring a non-religious viewpoint requires a degree of broadmindedness that some religious people seem to find quite uncomfortable.

It's an amazing straw man you set up there. You must be so, well......broadminded......

*rolls eyes*

24 posted on 05/11/2008 7:11:45 PM PDT by Lakeshark (Thank a member of the US armed forces for their sacrifice)
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To: Thorin
Well, there seems to be a clear nexus between the perverts and anti-(other)-religions. Exactly as islam's anger is entirely about steamrollering the imposition of dogma on everyone else.

In one case it is merely insanity; on the other, it is simply an extreme case of "misery-loves-company."

If I know that I was nothing before I was born, I am nothing now, and I will be nothing when I die, how dare anyone else have the hope of a higher fate?

Why should I embrace laws, ethics, morals and even civilization? Who decided it's important anyway?

As for science, it's settled. Just because it can't answer the most fundamental questions of creation doesn't mean we are closed minded, or anything...

25 posted on 05/11/2008 7:12:47 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: Thorin

I think one of the reasons for the anger is that the “freethinking utopia” has been such a disaster. The collapse of Christianity in Europe was supposed to usher in a new golden age of enlightenment, but instead it’s created an atmosphere where Islam, one of the most primitive religions on earth, is poised to become the dominant force there within a century.

Western atheists in the 19th & 20th centuries never gave Islam much thought because it wasn’t a significant factor in most Western nations. Christianity was the sole enemy as far as they were concerned, and once it was driven from a central role in community life, a new golden age would supposedly arise. Instead, those European nations are filled with secularized drones who merely want to live out the rest of their lives on a nice pension and then die. They don’t give a damn what happens to their nations after they’re gone. Militant atheists have come to realize that Christianity was a necessary ingredient in the success of the West. Knock Christianity out and you don’t get utopia, you get a shallow, empty culture filled with people too pessimistic and hedonistic to reproduce, followed by Islam.

And so there’s an increasing rage among atheists. As Mark Steyn once put it, for secular, socialist nanny states to survive, they need the family values and birth rates of a religious society. Otherwise the ponzi scheme collapses. So having purged Christian values from Europe, the secular elites have had to import fundamentalist Muslims to try to keep the scheme going. It’s frustrating to atheists that their societies are, for all practical purposes, dependent on religious people. So they lash out in rage, the way a spoiled child hates his parents.


26 posted on 05/11/2008 7:16:06 PM PDT by puroresu (Enjoy ASIAN CINEMA? See my Freeper page for recommendations (updated!).)
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To: ClearCase_guy
Why don’t you tell us the real number then?

Now that is, pardon my candor, a dumb question.

First of all, ignorant people aren't aware that they are ignorant. Point #2: ignorant people have no qualms about making up numbers, or quoting some obscure rant that does exactly that.

So where does that leave us?

How about insisting on documented numbers from historical sources?

If the ranter is claiming that during the official period of the "Inquisition" all executions, wars and other normal regional killings were religiously based, then all bets are off.

27 posted on 05/11/2008 7:19:49 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: Thorin

I’m almost 58yo, and I the closest I ever came to meeting an atheist (that I know of) was in Hammerfest Norway, and she said she was a pagan. Where are all of them, and how do you get people to say they are?


28 posted on 05/11/2008 7:19:57 PM PDT by stuartcr (Election year.....Who we gonna hate, in '08?)
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To: Thorin

For atheists, THIS is “all there is”. They have nothing to look forward to or anyone to lean on with power. It’s a ad life for them - but it is THEIR choice.


29 posted on 05/11/2008 7:35:37 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Oztrich Boy

“It is true that about 500 years ago, Christian fanatics killed about 10,000 people over a 100 year time period (about 100/year) in the name of the Roman Catholic church
And 800 years ago they killed half a million for the same reason

Like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Kims, the various Popes killed for one reason: maintaining absolute power.

There’s your problem, not atheism, or religion. “

Correction, as a Christian, and Bible based, don’t label ME a Catholic. Catholics are not Christians. Limit your reply to Catholics since they are the ones that murdered others in the name of Catholicism.


30 posted on 05/11/2008 7:38:10 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: prolifefirst

...Or any of the things that they consider immoral.

The thing is; most atheists are living a lifestyle that, if they would admit it, they themselves conciously or subconciously believe is immoral.


31 posted on 05/11/2008 7:39:28 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: nmh

I never said it was about religion.


32 posted on 05/11/2008 7:42:56 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Holy State or Holy King - Or Holy People's Will - Have no truck with the senseless thing)
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To: nmh

Yeah just write off the Church Jesus Christ Himself Founded... Yeah that Pope benedict XVI looks like a real Zealot on his recent USA visit..

The Catholic Monks of Europe lead the Western Civilization Read a Little History! In New and innovative Agriculture Wineries Mettalurgy Augauducts Education Charity etc..

The benedictine Monks of England had the Most Advanced Mettalurgical Furnaces to start the Industrial age They were stymied by Henry 8th by disbanding Them ... as they did in France later on..


33 posted on 05/11/2008 7:50:20 PM PDT by philly-d-kidder (From Kuwait where the Weather is always Partly Sandy!)
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To: Thorin

If anything, the constant need of the new atheists to belittle religious belief suggests a defensiveness, a need to reassure themselves that they are right.

Can we say "Teeny tiny gonads?" Of course we can, unless the Religion Moderator smacks us in the teeth.

34 posted on 05/11/2008 7:55:46 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Yes, but how does that help?)
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To: nmh
Catholics are not Christians. Pfft. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, nmh.
35 posted on 05/11/2008 8:09:07 PM PDT by cammie
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To: svcw

...and they hate being reminded of it.

“In God We Trust”


36 posted on 05/11/2008 8:11:26 PM PDT by Delta 21 ( MKC USCG - ret)
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To: Thorin
I usually steer clear of the crevo threads on FR because they so quickly degenerate into childish name-calling. There's better things to do with the time we're given than to engage in such wasteful activities.

The end will have the final say. I happen to believe life has a purpose, and I feel sorry for those who think that this is all there is. I just say a quick prayer for them and move on.

37 posted on 05/11/2008 8:19:01 PM PDT by reagan_fanatic (Average White Conservative)
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To: reagan_fanatic
I usually steer clear of the crevo threads on FR...

Do you have any idea why you didn't steer clear of this one? Pretty provocative heading, I'd say.

38 posted on 05/11/2008 8:25:55 PM PDT by Misterioso
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To: prolifefirst

The atheists I know are former Christians who are angry because they didn’t get what they prayed for.


39 posted on 05/11/2008 8:28:15 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Liberalism is a Socialist Disease)
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To: prolifefirst
Do you mean Danish D'Souza?
40 posted on 05/11/2008 8:29:04 PM PDT by Misterioso
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To: reagan_fanatic

That’s really about all you can do.


41 posted on 05/11/2008 8:31:22 PM PDT by Sue Perkick (And I hope that what I've done here today doesn't force you to have a negative opinion of me....)
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To: Loud Mime

Do you get what you pray for? Is that what grounds your faith?


42 posted on 05/11/2008 8:34:09 PM PDT by Misterioso
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To: reagan_fanatic
I have never claimed to be an atheist but before my conversion experience in 1975, I was closer to agnostic. I didn't say there was a God or there wasn't a God. I believed that if there was a God,I din’t know anyone who I thought truly knew him. I can understand the anger of atheists and agnostics. I resented someone telling me I had to live by a set of rules when I didn't know if it was the answer or not. After February 1975, I no longer questioned the fact that there is a living God and that the Bible is his infallible Word. If that offends anyone, it is not my intent.
43 posted on 05/11/2008 8:46:54 PM PDT by Know et al (Everything I know I read in the newspaper and that's the reason for my ignorance. Will Rogers)
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To: Misterioso
Do you get what you pray for? Is that what grounds your faith?

Not me. I only pray for guidance.

But, there's lots of prayer threads on FR....

44 posted on 05/11/2008 8:50:05 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Liberalism is a Socialist Disease)
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To: 2banana

The latest research:

The Spanish Inquisition maintained extensive records and these are now being sifted through by historians. They paint a very different picture of sentencing patterns to traditional historians, although like any historical document their accuracy can be disputed. Geoffrey Parker analyzed 49,000 trial records between 1540 and 1700, representing one third of the total, and found 776 executions took place. This suggests a total of about 2,250 in the period reviewed. Earlier records are less well preserved but do not support the picture of a bloodbath usually painted. Henry Kamen (p. 60) does not believe more than a thousand executions took place in the earlier period. However, he points out that the Inquisitors’ activities were heavily slanted towards Jewish and Moslem communities who would have suffered far more than most from their activities. Recent work, sponsored by the Catholic Church, also points to a significantly lower death toll. Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome, writes that about 125,000 people were tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain. Of these, about 1,200 - 2,000 were actually executed, although more killings were performed by non-church tribunals.


45 posted on 05/11/2008 8:53:14 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: steve-b
Puh-leeze. The claim of only 100 murders per year for all of Europe during the inquisitions and witch hunts does not pass the laugh test.

The standard for accuracy isn't laughing however, It is the historical record.

Like the Third Reich, the inquisition saw nothing wrong with what it was doing and kept extensive records of it's activities. See my previous post on Geoffry Parker's research.

46 posted on 05/11/2008 8:57:01 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: xenophiles
2) exploring a non-religious viewpoint requires a degree of broadmindedness that some religious people seem to find quite uncomfortable.

No, it doesn't. Atheists are usually small- and simple-minded. Following logic is the easiest thing an engaged brain can do.

It requires far more "broadmindedness" to consider and accept the existence of that which can't be physically sensed.

47 posted on 05/11/2008 9:00:06 PM PDT by Chunga (Vote Republican)
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To: Thorin

BTTT.


48 posted on 05/11/2008 9:33:33 PM PDT by TBP
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To: nmh
Correction, as a Christian, and Bible based, don’t label ME a Catholic. Catholics are not Christians.

Excuse me. Care to clarify that bigoted statement?

49 posted on 05/11/2008 10:08:05 PM PDT by Illuminatas (Being conservative means never having to say; "Don't you dare question my patriotism")
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To: Thorin

Because they think and act using the primitive “lizard” part of thier brain instead of the God given Intellect located in the frontal lobes?


50 posted on 05/11/2008 10:14:01 PM PDT by Global2010 (Waiting for Hillary to pull the Rabbit outa the Hat)
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