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The Toll of Human Suffering During the Great Depression
Socyberty.com ^ | August 19, 2008 | Joanna Lenae

Posted on 09/25/2008 12:25:31 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Human suffering became a reality for millions of Americans as the depression continued. Many died of disease resulting from malnutrition. Thousands lost their home because they could not pay the mortgage. In 1932,at least 25,000 families,and more than 200,000 young people wandered through the country seeking food,clothing,shelter,and a job.

Many of the young people traveled in freight trains,and lived near train yards called hobo jungles. The homeless,jobless travelers obtained food from welfare agencies,or religious missions in town along the way. Most of their meals consisted of soup,beans,or stew and had very little nourishment. The travelers begged for food,or stole it if they could not get something to eat. They even ate scraps of food from garbage cans.

The ragged travelers found clothing even harder to obtain than food. Missions gave most of the clothing they had to the needy local people. Many of the travelers became very ill because they did not have food,or proper clothing. Even the sick wanderers had trouble getting help because the hospitals aided local residents first.


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: bailout; depression; difficulttimes; economy; financialcrisis; housing; human; suffering; toll
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NO BAILOUT! That is the Conservative cry! No discussion of whether or not it could work to stave off a depression. Just pitchforks, torches, flags flying and a rising choros of "NO BAILOUT!".

Well, folks... I can't say if $700 billion in taxpayer money will avert a depression or not, but no attempt is going to embrace a depression.

Food distribution is going to be very interesting. It will be interesting to see how fast shelves go bare in stores. I hope you don't expect your internet provider not to be impacted by a depression. Prepare for internet service to be a thing of the rich, not the common man. How will you connect to Free Republic?

The riots and violence in bigger cities are going to be very interesting to watch unfold. Just wait until things break down along racial lines and might makes right again as large contingencies vie for feudal control of portions of cities. Cops are going to be protecting the rich and influential. They aren't going to have any time for you.

So enjoy your malnutrition and disease. I'm sure the garbage of the rich will still be available. Maybe you can tear out your front yard and plant a garden. And maybe you'll even live to see some of plants start to bear fruit.

I posted this as a small reminder of how rapidly civilized society falls apart in a depression, when the normal lines of supply, communication, energy distribution and social structure break down.

Y'all think it can't happen again. "We're beyond that," you are thinking. Right. Just like NASDAQ was going straight to the moon, you thought. Just like house prices always go up, you thought. Just like the economy was peachy and it as just the evil MSM and doom and gloomers talking down the economy to get Hitlery elected you thought.

Stick around. Y'all will be shocked to see how fast the entire economy can grind to a screeching halt. Gas stations completely empty. Grocery stores completely empty. Hospitals rationing medicine. Watch and see.

But that's OK. You will have done your duty as a Conservative and screamed "NO BAILOUT, NO SOCIALISM" and you will have your pride as you look for another pair of shoes for dinner, but guess what, soles are plastic today so you can't even eat your shoes.

I'm sure I'm exaggerating, but the point remains. For those who lose their jobs -- and there will be NO finding work for years for these people -- it will be back to "Hey buddy, can you spare a $100 for a meal? I haven't eaten in a couple of days." Churches are dying. Families are scattered. Where is the support network going to come from in the next depression, from the cash strapped government running their printing presses? Not hardly.

So go ahead. Stick to your guns. Sink any chance we have, slim as it may be, to restore confidence to the market, avert depression now, and then we can shoot the bastards later. No, go ahead and embrace the new Depression. I'm sure your starving children living in the streets will thank you for it. "Mom, Dad, thank you so much for standing up for your principles. My pneumonia will kill me without medical help, but at least I'll die the child of a proud, conservative, unyielding Freeper."

Booyah! NO BAILOUT! Screw em! Bring on the Depression. Bring it all down, man! NO BAILOUT! No bailout for wall street pigs! No money for wall street! Hands off my taxes!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BAILOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So long, and thanks for the Depression...

1 posted on 09/25/2008 12:25:39 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Thank you for your permission. I will take my chances.


2 posted on 09/25/2008 12:31:24 AM PDT by DeuceTraveler (Freedom is a never ending struggle)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Your right! It won’t be very pretty!


3 posted on 09/25/2008 12:34:24 AM PDT by tallyhoe
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Bailout or not, stockpile food and ammo.


4 posted on 09/25/2008 12:37:01 AM PDT by exnavy ( conservative, not republican)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

So you really think that the government is going to fix things and not make them worse?


5 posted on 09/25/2008 12:40:05 AM PDT by thecabal (Conservatives who don't live up to the liberal caricature are now hypocrites.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
I'm sure your starving children living in the streets will thank you for it. "Mom, Dad, thank you so much for standing up for your principles. My pneumonia will kill me without medical help, but at least I'll die the child of a proud, conservative, unyielding Freeper."

Wow. Just wow.

6 posted on 09/25/2008 12:41:22 AM PDT by TheWasteLand
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
So long, and thanks for the Depression...

You're welcome. In turn, thanks for the hyperbole, Emo.

By the way, hyperbole cuts both ways.

Below is a heartbreaking picture of a poor woman in Weimar Germany burning hyperinflated banknotes, because their value as fuel is greater than their purchasing power.

We are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY going to have WORSE FREAKING INFLATION THAN THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN if we HAVE A BAILOUT!!!

What proof do I have? Just my say-so. As with you -- my shrieking hyperbole and my historical (hysterical?) reminders that it can happen, and it did happen, are all I need. :-)


7 posted on 09/25/2008 12:42:25 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Don’t forget Seabiscuit.


8 posted on 09/25/2008 12:45:54 AM PDT by MarMema (regime change in Russia!!)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Y'all think it can't happen again. "We're beyond that," you are thinking. Right. Just like NASDAQ was going straight to the moon, you thought. Just like house prices always go up, you thought.

Just to be clear, I never thought that. And interestingly, none of my fellow dumb friends who also went to state universities thought that. Seems this concept of "what goes up will continue to go up" is something they only teach the Ivy Leaguers on Wall Street.

There will be suffering. You are correct.

9 posted on 09/25/2008 12:47:56 AM PDT by PressurePoint
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To: DeuceTraveler

HA! You say that now. How flippant we all are when we are warm and comfortable and sated and our stomachs are full. When our children our safe. When we aren’t living with 14 other people in one home. When we aren’t massed on buses taking a 2 hour ride to go 20 miles to work because we can’t afford to operate our cars. When we aren’t living on rice and beans day after day and can’t remember the last time we enjoyed a dessert.

Yes, you say that now. Ha ha ha ha. “I’ll take my chances”. Right, like you would honestly take a 50/50 chance on being deprived all of the comforts, conveniences, safeguards and essentials that you take for granted daily. Not me, baby! Oh, not me. My father went through a depression and scared the crap out of me with his stories. No thank you, baby! You go right ahead and take your chances. And then you get back to me when you cross your 50th month without a steady paycheck, just very rare odd jobs here and there because NOBODY is hiring. Come my way and if I am still employed and earning a regular measly check, then when you say “Hey buddy, can you spare $20 for a meal, I haven’t eaten in a couple of days”, then I’ll be happy to treat you to one meal. Hopefully a lot more people will be as generous. Hopefully I won’t be one of those begging from need.

Oh, take your chances you will. In a pigs eye, you will. If you knew what many will be in for in the next depression, you would be on your knees praying to God that would not happen. I kid you not.

If you thought the last depression was bad, how will it go for a nation of 350 MILLION people, mostly packed into crowded cities. Just wait until the violence starts. A whole lot of strong, mean, angry people who have been told they were given the short end of the stick all their lives are going to have a field day putting “might makes right” into practice, gleefully taking the spoils of bitterness from the man, and from every segment of society they have been brainwashed to believe are oppressors.

This is going to be stomach turning.

Anybody who thinks a depression can’t happen is ignorant. Anybody who thinks society can’t devolve is badly misinformed. Re-read “Lord of the Flies”. Might come in handy during the upcoming depression — all but guaranteed now by the ignorant masses who are trying to tie the hands of government from even attempting to avert it.

Again, I am not so stupid as to know the bailout will work. I absolutely do not know if it will work. I do know that there is a VERY NARROW window of opportunity before the entire system collapses from panic and screams of NO BAILOUT from 90% of the electorate will guarantee that panic and resulting worldwide financial collapse.

Oh, you’ll take your chances all right...

So long, and thanks for the Depression.


10 posted on 09/25/2008 12:48:08 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Let me guess...

You’re up late worrying because you’re long LEH and GS and JPM and AIG &etc. and you’re worried about your portfolio.

You poor dear. Have a glass of milk and try to go back to bed.

I’ll stay up and worry for both of us. I’m worried that after working hard and saving and getting out of debt I’m nothing but a big chump who is about to get *SO* screwed by our benevolent government as they inflate away and devalue my hard-earned nest egg.


11 posted on 09/25/2008 12:51:54 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: exnavy
Sounds like ammo production and canning supplies might be the businesses to get into right now.

But after paying my friggin taxes to bail these jokers out, I don't have anything left to invest. Darn the luck. I just can't catch a break.

12 posted on 09/25/2008 12:52:28 AM PDT by PressurePoint
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To: Nervous Tick

Explain how you go Weimar when debt is being destroyed faster than you can even monetize? Debt is being destroyed with every write down, now totalling some $500 billion. That is short of the entire authorization that Paulson wants to print. And you are telling me that $700 billion, spent likely over years — not months — takes us Weimar.

You have your opinion but I am seeing massive debt destruction that printing can’t even begin to keep up with and this leaps an order of magnitude with an entire US financial collapse, never mind the other world systems.

And you are talking Weimar. Please explain to me how $700 billion spent is going to initiate hyperinflation. Or were you similarly worried about the $600 billion spent so far on the Iraq war?


13 posted on 09/25/2008 12:55:35 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: exnavy

>> Bailout or not, stockpile food and ammo.

My neighbors and I have a deal.

They’re already stockpiling food; I’m going to stockpile ammo.

(At what point do you think I should tell THEM about our deal?)

jk


14 posted on 09/25/2008 12:55:52 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Nervous Tick

ROFL!


15 posted on 09/25/2008 12:57:28 AM PDT by Allegra
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
Well, folks... I can't say if $700 billion in taxpayer money will avert a depression or not, but no attempt is going to embrace a depression.

The only solution to the liquidity crisis is a market devaluation, especially in the house of CarDS. The market is going to come down severely, certainly within the next thirty years, probably within the next ten, and likely within the next three. The question of whether it will cause a depression will be determined by (1) what efforts are made to prevent the market correction [more == bad], and (2) what sorts of tax-and-spend programs are put in place afterward [again, more == bad].

If the government would put failed entities into receiver ship, let the bad debts play through the tangled web of CDSs, using only such intervention as is necessary to prevent bank runs and equalize losses, and if the government dropped tax rates, the market would recover since the systemic problems that are dogging it would be solved. Unfortunately, I really doubt anyone will have the courage to adopt such a plan. Instead, they'll throw $700bn+ into the house of CarDS thus ensuring that we're in more trouble three years from now than we're in presently.

16 posted on 09/25/2008 12:58:42 AM PDT by supercat
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To: Nervous Tick

LOL :)


17 posted on 09/25/2008 12:58:46 AM PDT by beaversmom
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To: Nervous Tick

For your information, we have lost $4 to $6 trillion dollars in housing wealth (yes, mainly fictitious, but gone none-the-less) in just the last year and another $4 trillion lost in the stock market.

And with that kind of capital/debt destruction, you are telling me that $700 billion in monetization is taking us Weimar? What the hell are you smoking?


18 posted on 09/25/2008 1:00:08 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

I already told you. My shrieking hyperbole is enough. I don’t need to explain a thing!

And why not? It worked for you. You just shrieked and emoted and called up ghosts from the past. You didn’t “explain” or “prove” Jack Squat.

My hypothesis is every bit as likely to happen as yours. So there. :-P


19 posted on 09/25/2008 1:01:19 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

>> yes, mainly fictitious, but gone none-the-less

I see. “Fake but accurate”.

...is that you, Dan?


20 posted on 09/25/2008 1:02:18 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

I don’t think 700 billion right now is the right thing to do but something has to be done.

I was at an accounting association meeting last night. We had two speakers from a nearby fortune 500 corporation speaking about cash management. They was responsible for the daily cash transactions that allowed the company to function daily.

They said that the day or so that the crisis on Wall Street blew up was one of the most stressful in their careers. They had one hell of a time getting banks to lend those days.

Now this is trade debt, it would be pocket change when compared to the assets of this corporation but if they don’t have assess to borrow that money then they may have to delay contracts or payments to suppliers.

Now this is a very conservative manufacturing company, bonds are always rated the highest. They won’t go bankrupt because the money markets has gone to pot but when it and thousands of other major corporations in America find they have a hard time borrowing cash then that affects thousands of smaller suppliers more harshly as sales to those larger corporations are delayed or cut back. Soon you start a cascade effect that causes a recession.


21 posted on 09/25/2008 1:11:07 AM PDT by Swiss
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To: MarMema
Don’t forget Seabiscuit.

How do you field dress a horse? :)

22 posted on 09/25/2008 1:11:37 AM PDT by CE2949BB (McCain/Palin 08)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free
I'm betting this is going to really hurt the film release of Cormac McCarthy's The Road that's coming out in November. Might hit a little too close to home.
23 posted on 09/25/2008 1:12:39 AM PDT by PressurePoint
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To: Swiss

Yes, that’s why my only conclusion is that the “let’s the chips fall” people are in deep denial about how bad this thing is.


24 posted on 09/25/2008 1:15:24 AM PDT by Truthsearcher
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To: Truthsearcher

>> deep denial about how bad this thing is.

So in other words, the $700 billion isn’t going to fix it, right?


25 posted on 09/25/2008 1:19:17 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: thecabal

I honestly don’t know. I have no clue. We are in completely uncharted waters with this liquidity crisis.

On one hand, nobody can be sure any solution will work, form printing $700 billion to bailout the banks, to forcing them to collapse. Nobody knows. All I know is, money is to financial system as blood is the human body. If is not breathing but has a pulse, you have some chance to bring him back to healthy. If he has no pulse, your odds are VERY slim he will not die.

Right now, money is still flowing. It is binding, jamming and slowing down, but still flowing. As long as we can keep it flowing, we stand a chance of fixing the economy. Once a big run on the banks comes from panic by the public and the big institutional investors, everything will come to a screeching halt in the financial system and in the economy.

And like trying to defibrillate a human heart, the financial system is equally difficult to re-start. Once people think they will lose all their money if they pull it out of the mattress, you have total collapse.

So I have no clue if this will work. I’m even concerned that this is some kind of closet payoff to Paulson’s pals before the inevitable depression occurs, so they have a soft landing.

I personally believe politicians don’t want to live through a depression or see one in their lifetimes, even though they would likely ride it out better than most of us. If you keep a job all through a depression, you aren’t really all that bad off. You will have a roof and nutritious meals. The problem is, so many people are unemployed without a roof or an ability to get meals. And the survivors with jobs are just on the edge of surviving.

During a depression, everything deflates so you can be sure wages will plunge as your employer says, “sorry, our profits are slim and this is all I can afford to pay you.”

If you aren’t a hot shot actor or athlete, or living on old money, you suffer. Workers suffer a little, the unemployed suffer catastrophically. THIS CAN STILL HAPPEN IN MODERN SOCIETY.

So I conclude the politicians don’t want this. They are greedy, powerhungry, egotistical bastards, but they aren’t stupid. A Depression helps no one but a few very rich vultures who can buy assets for pennies on the dollar. Politicians are not among those very rich vultures.

Will the bailout work? I have no clue. Can it work? Absolutely. Starting to free lenders from the toxic paper weighing them down could start the process of allowing lenders to trust each other again and stop hoarding the money they are borrowing from the Fed. They are fearful. Doing nothing invites panic. Buying up the toxic paper takes the fear factor down.

It CAN work, I just don’t know if it WILL work. I just don’t know...

My example of a depression is extreme and is not the most likely scenario IMHO. But it is definitely a possibility if we demand a systemic crash by doing nothing.

Even Nouriel Roubini, who is always negative, thinks the bailout will have a positive effect on the US financial system and will avert a deep wide depression like Japans 10 years of deflationary stagnation, and will reduce the pain to an 18-month recession.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/24/news/economy/Roubini_on_bailout/index.htm

If a brilliant perma-bear like Roubini thinks a well-targeted plan will limit the economic damage to a short recession of 18 months, then I defer to his knowledge and analysis. So yes, this could work.

My example of “depression” is a worst case scenario that is unlikely but still possible, hence my reason for using it. I am trying to underscore the real though outside possibility if Conservative people continue to try to correct the extreme socialism in our society at this time with this issue.

How about we live to fight another day and then we string the bastards up by the short hairs? Won’t there be enough outrage at this entire episode for voters to get motivated to both throw all the bums out on their arses and to demand Wall Street cleans up its act? Why do we have to do all that now when the financial system is balancing delicately on the edge of systemic meltdown? I don’t get it.

I hate socialism as most do here. I hate it when we don’t punish lack of personal responsibility. I want the evildoers to pay for their sins. But I don’t want my family to pay for the evildoers sins by my relatives losing jobs and having their children suffer and pay the price for it.

Lets fix the financial system first, and then we can start the armed rebellion. But here is the problem... The American electorate is so collectively stupid, there is a good chance that after the problem is fixed, they’ll go back to their American Idol and reality TV.

What time the big game start? We gotnuff beers? Did Britney’s sister have her kid yet?


26 posted on 09/25/2008 1:22:59 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Homeowners will still lose their homes with this bailout.

Inflation will be rampant.

And fuel prices will once again skyrocket.

Of course the derivatives and the credit default swaps are still to come.

But go ahead argue for the crooks and buy into the vague threats and the state of fear... And here I thought that it was the liberals that were a bunch of sheep.


27 posted on 09/25/2008 1:24:08 AM PDT by Tempest (No more bailouts. No More Fear Mongers.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

You really need to use the word “BOOGIEMAN” more in your posts if you’re trying to instill fear in people.


28 posted on 09/25/2008 1:27:01 AM PDT by Tempest (No more bailouts. No More Fear Mongers.)
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To: TheWasteLand

It should not be that bad. I’m trying to make a point. But it could be that bad. That is why I’m trying to make the point. I don’t even want to risk it being that bad. I think we are in for a long deep recession, maybe 5 years. Nothing catastrophic but a lot of pain for those who can’t get jobs and not much fun and no raises for those who have jobs. The stock market will level off and retirees counting on asset appreciation will have none and see their retirement savings dwindle.

I don’t expect a depression, but lets not kid ourselves that it isn’t possible today, just because we are such technologically advanced people. Bunk. It CAN happen today and it can happen in the blink of an eye. Lets not give it a chance. Lets fight this thing first, and then we can go postal on socialsts and socialism.

If things do get bad, very bad, depression bad, and Obama is president, this idiot electorate is going to give him ALL of the Socialist power FDR could ever have dreamed of. I don’t want to give a President Obama that chance. If Freepers successfully persuade Republicans to oppose this bailout and the economy tanks, as it will, then Obama will become president and he will be the most socialist president we have ever had and will be given emergency powers by the Democrat House and Senate.

Just how in hell is that better than holding our noses and accepting an unpalatable $700 billion monetization of private debt? I can’t see it. We are tossing the baby out with the bath water.


29 posted on 09/25/2008 1:29:36 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

Alex Jones is on C2C currently.

I don’t know nor understand much about the high finances . . . but it sounds like lower reaches of hell evil by TPTB . . .

A clever expert of some such just called . . . Alex recognized his voice . . . searched the annual reports of the FED and Chase, Citi Group and Bank of America

$300 TRILLION with a T in derivatives, if I heard right.

Whatever that’s all about—$300 TRILLION!!! Pretty soon they’ll be talking about some real money! Sheesh . . . what would that equal for every family in America . . .

Anyway—somehow one of them was relating that to gobbling up all the smaller banks.

Alex mentioned it is a military operation long planned . . . I agree with him.

100% of the credible Christian prophet sources I’ve read on the topic absolutely insist that while there may be a temporary reprieve . . . after that, the crash will be far worse than the 1920’s/30’s DEPRESSION. Far, far far WORSE . . . and will NOT get better until AFTER ARMAGEDDON.

I believe them.

God will take care of His own . . . as long as He leaves them here . . . and the meek will inherit the earth . . . evidently some meek will be left. Some mysteries there.

But folks need to realize that walking close with God is not whistling Dixie in denial and continuing to do one’s own thing while giving God lip-service.


30 posted on 09/25/2008 1:36:38 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Nervous Tick

Your guess was close but only off by 179-degrees.

I am all cash and have been all cash since December of 2006, as you SHOULD know by now because I have been screaming here on Free Republic on a regular basis for everyone else to get out of the market and flee to safety in all cash. All that ever got me was accusation of being a tool of the evil MSM trying to talk down the economy to get Hitlery elected, and an avalanche of people “refusing to participate in a recession” ala multi-millionaire Rush Limbaugh. Multi-millionaire actually have the luxury of “refusing to participate in a recession,” unlike us working stiffs.

I am all cash and 100% debt free. I don’t own a house because I refused to buy in the insane housing bubble.

So your guess could not have been more wrong. As for worrying about inflation, you better start worrying about deflation in a major way. All you can see is the severe short term inflation we had in food and fuel during the commodity bubble caused by the collapse of housing nad by Bernanke dropping the Fed Funds rate to 2%.

If you get your way with no bailout, when the resulting crash occurs, at worst you get laid off or at best you get a pay cut. Both disinflationary, not inflationary. If you are a retiree betting on your stock market gains, you will find them to be deflating as well.

If this works, then the monetization WILL cause inflation. So pick your poison. Some inflation or a long, deep, deflationary recession. I hate inflation but I’ll take it any day over the alternative.

As for all the heat I’ll take in this thread, I’m used to it.

When I said NASDAQ was funny money, I got pounded on here by people who said “new economy”.

When I said there was a housing bubble, I got pounded on here by people who said housing won’t go down.

When I said oil was a bubble, I got pounded on here by people who said we would never see cheap oil again in our lifetimes and oil would got to $200.

I said Bernanke’s 2% rate cut would do nothing to stimulate economic growth, since the banks refused to lend the money out anyway. I got body slammed for that call as people said, “best time to buy ever!”

Last year I said housing wouldn’t bottom until 2009 or 2010 and that last year was a terrible time to buy a house and 2008 would be much better than 2007. The hordes chimed in to say they were buying and “BEST TIME TO BUY... EVER!”

I got a stream of people jumping down my throat when I said, months ago, we were in the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Funny, I don’t hear that talk anymore...

By my record I am 6 for 6. Yet every time I post something, I invite the masses who probably haven’t read a small fraction of what I’ve read, jumping down my throat. That doesn’t mean intelligent people can’t disagree. There are several bright people here who fell the government can’t muster enough money to prevent systemic financial collapse and they back their arguments with facts and logic. There view is as good as mine. Nobody knows if the bailout will work.

But I take exception with this knee-jerk Conservatism in opposition of an action that just might prevent financial collapse. Without doubt, a financial collapse is a foregone conclusion if we keep going the way we are going, soaring national debt, trade deficits, corporate debt, private debt. If we avoid financial collapse, as soon as the fragile economy is strong, we have to bite the bullet and start saving, investing, and producing again — without undue debt.

That said, now is not the time to take some rigid ideological stand unless you want to destroy the village to save the village.


31 posted on 09/25/2008 1:50:28 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: supercat; Joya

The crash is deliberate.

The crash has been long planned.

The suffering is desired on the part of TPTB.

The evil b*stErds WANT death, chaos and destruction.

They think they have insured their elitist safety a dozen different ways and that they will end up riding a much more manageable bunch of chipped subservient slaves ‘stewarding’ a much more eco-safe and eco-friendly planet that will survive vs one that will self-destruct . . .

They have been seduced by satan; lied to by the fallen angels and convinced that they are tasked with reducing the population to 200 million globally . . . eventually erasing most of the signs of man on the North American Continent . . . leaving the bulk of it as their vast National Park Playground . . .

Many Christians are praying that all the evil that’s hidden be exposed. God has evidently told some folks that HE IS GOING TO EXPOSE such evils soonish.

Alex talking about BILLIONAIRES in Austin TX leaving the country . . . people that OWN DEFENSE companies freaked out and leaving the country.

1/10th of 1% who are the top elites ruling things to destruction.


32 posted on 09/25/2008 1:51:18 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Truthsearcher

Deep Denial has become a

way of life for massive percentages of the populace.


33 posted on 09/25/2008 1:54:05 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

>> like Japans 10 years of deflationary stagnation

I’m glad you brought that up.

That IMO was *worse* than we’ll have if we just let the chips fall here, and let the market punish the greedy and stupid as they deserve to be punished.

Nevertheless — I don’t recall any big hyperbolic “Toll Of Human Suffering” in Japan.

By the way — during that period of time I was on the executive staff of a company that had a subsidiary in Japan. I traveled to Japan many times during that period. It was a sobering time coming on the heels of the Japanese “party experience”. But all the dire things you predict DID NOT come to pass.

And, guess what? They have come out of it, arguably stronger.

One more comment: Million-five cardboard Wal-Mart McMansion “housing” in places like Stockton and Las Vegas and San Diego is no more “worth” the prices it attained during the drunken party than dot-com “companies” with no “products” were worth their share price in 1999.

The success of this whole bailout boondoggle is predicated on somehow “saving” the inflated housing market — i.e. keeping those prices at their stupidly inflated values.

Housing price does NOT equal housing value. The market determines value. The market says housing needs to deflate, and the market is right.

If one bought stupid or used one’s house as an ATM machine, then they screwed up! Let the chips fall.


34 posted on 09/25/2008 1:54:05 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: supercat

In your opinion then, Paulson and Bernanke are doing the exact wrong thing. Bernanke was chosen specifically because the knew a financial crash was on the horizon.

So, knowing that in your opinion they are implementing the exact wrong steps, are Paulson and Bernane

A) Morons and idiots?
B) Corrupt stooges for the power elite to tranfer wealth to them from the middle class?
C)Part of a plan to implement the new world order?

Which is it?


35 posted on 09/25/2008 1:54:33 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: supercat

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I read your post to say, “we need a financial collapse now because that fixes the systemic problems in the financial system and delaying will only make things worse.”

Do I interpret your post correctly, if simply?


36 posted on 09/25/2008 1:56:27 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Swiss

Good example of a severe liquidity problem.

So what do you think fixes this problem without a flood of money?

Lost in all this discussion is that US lenders have taken MASSIVE write-downs in very short order in 2008. Frankly, I think that is very healthy for the financial system. Japan did everything they could to delay those losses. The US financial institutions have been very aggressive in taking write-downs of late and while there is much left opaque, I think this debt destruction is moving us along very well. Now we just have to prevent catastrophic deflationary collapse of the financial system so we can keep these massive write-downs coming and push through this crisis in a reasonable timeframe. Japan refused to do that and you know what that lead to.


37 posted on 09/25/2008 2:01:25 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free; iThinkBig; Alamo-Girl; Joya; Marysecretary; Gamecock

You have my respect and appreciation for your coursage

for being awake

for being a watchman doing his job

for telling the truth as you perceive it and have researched it

May you walk close to God and be a treasure to all those you love.

The fact that sooooo many Conservative Christians who OUGHT to know far more far better are still so clueless is a mind boggling thing to me. Given that so many of our brothers and sisters are so clueless . . . imagine what the average non-conservative non-Christian is . . .

What is beyond clueless?—amoebic?

Imagine the behavior of those millions of clueless . . . some will be loyal slaves and serfs mindlessly puppeting whatever the elites tell them.

Some will become violent anarchists destroying all within reach in suicidal rages.

What will Conservative Christians do as the light begins to dawn on their willful blindness? . . . beside regret being so slow to wake up . . . Prayer and fasting is certainly in order.

Preparing as best one can is highly in order.

Hiding Scripture in our hearts and minds . . . Living God’s priorities of Loving Him above all else and others as ourselves is a super priority. Learning to hear and obey His Voice is a high priority.


38 posted on 09/25/2008 2:06:17 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free; supercat

I realize you didn’t ask me but I’ll chime in anyway.

Scratch (C). I don’t believe in that new world order nonsense. Even if I did, it’s not happening. With few exceptions the bozos in this administration — including Paulson and Bernanke — could (if you’ll pardon my crudeness) eff up a wet dream. They simply don’t have the competence to pull off a conspiracy!

That leaves B) malevolance and A) stupidity.

I admit I’m not for sure on this choice. How do you explain a Bernanke and a Paulson that mere weeks ago were reassuring us that all was A-OK? Were they intentionally lying to us, or, despite what they’d have us believe are they not up to the job?

I’m going to have to go with A) Morons and idiots.

My reasoning is simply the old cliche:

“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”


39 posted on 09/25/2008 2:08:37 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Truthsearcher

I expect they are not in denial but are completely misinformed, like the mother who thinks she can hold her baby in her arms in a car crash. She just doesn’t realize that it is like trying to catch a bowling ball dropped from a 10 story window.

I don’t think enough people here know enough about the details of this crisis to be in denial. I think they are uneducated and misinformed. Further, I don’t think most of these people bother to read the more detailed posts about the liquidity crisis. All in all, I think 90% of freepers don’t know more than what they hear from Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly and then just regurgitate their views on this forum.

I heard Rush say the most idiotic thing today. He said, “the Democrats tried to pin all this on Phil Gramm, but people aren’t buying it”. Rushes point being, this is solely a Democrat crisis. And this after Rush said he was going to “quit carrying the water for the Republicans.”

Gramm and the Republicans are very bit as complicit in causing this financial crisis as are the Democrats. They both embraced the bubbles that kept their constituents happy and they both — with a few exceptions like Ron Paul — turned a blind eye to the rapidly escalating problems, thinking they could hide them forever, or at least until retirement.

An this is how Rush Limbaugh has quit “carrying the water for Republicans?” Call as spade a spade. They are almost all of them guilty in causing this financial crisis. Almost all of them — R and D alike. Almost all of them.

So Rush spouts off and you hear it regurgitated mindlessly here. Do people even bother to read the articles posted here? Retorically asked, I will answer, seldom and rarely.


40 posted on 09/25/2008 2:09:35 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Tempest

I agree with what you said and will add that the dollar will tank.

Now you lead me through why doing nothing and letting the market collapse is a good thing. Treasury crash, anyone? Watch China dump all of their treasuries. That will help our economy, right?

But I’m all ears to hear why you think that letting the system collapse is a better bet than holding our nose and doing the unpalatable — by rewarding a bunch of greedy bastards for screwing us over because we can’t cut off our nose to spite our face.

I agree that at some point we will have inflation and high energy costs and a weak dollar will come right away. Did you ever stop to think though that the world, since decoupling is another idiotic untrue myth, that the Euro may struggle even worse than the dollar in this crisis? If we prop up the US financial system, where does the world go for a flight to safety? It goes to Treasuries and to dollars. Think about that.


41 posted on 09/25/2008 2:14:29 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Tempest

No fear huh? Do you just like depressions or are you assuming that the US financial system is so strong it can’t possibly collapse? Are you so sure we can’t have another depression?


42 posted on 09/25/2008 2:15:38 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Nervous Tick

Let the chips fall! No bailout! Screw ‘em all! I’ll take my chances!

You say that now.


43 posted on 09/25/2008 2:19:11 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

>> Your guess was close but only off by 179-degrees.

I wasn’t really guessing. I was yanking your chain.

>> I am all cash and 100% debt free.

As am I.

>> I don’t own a house because I refused to buy in the insane housing bubble.

I don’t blame you. I bought my house in ‘94. It’s paid off.

>> you SHOULD know by now because I have been screaming here on Free Republic on a regular basis

I scream here too! But I don’t delude myself that anyone hangs on what I say enough to remember it for even one thread cycle... maybe your ego needs a deflationary cycle too? :-)

>> As for worrying about inflation, you better start worrying about deflation in a major way

I’m concerned about both. Trust me on that.

>> no bailout, when the resulting crash occurs, at worst you get laid off or at best you get a pay cut

Too late... I was already forced into a “sabbatical” when the company I worked for was sold. Fortunately I had some stock...

>> If this works, then the monetization WILL cause inflation. So pick your poison. Some inflation or a long, deep, deflationary recession

That’s a straw man argument: you assert, but you haven’t PROVEN, that the deflation will be long or deep. I’ll rephrase your statement to “pick your poison, some inflation or some deflation”. Since I’m in cash, I choose “some deflation”. OK?


44 posted on 09/25/2008 2:19:46 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

A depression (actully reccesiion) at this state would be global and since so many economies are tied together and diversified a truncated reccession would be much better than a long drawn out one. Bailing out the investment banks now will do nothing but postpone the inevitable. No one is looking at the real issue of derivatives and credit default swaps which stands to be much greater debt than sub-prime mortgages.


45 posted on 09/25/2008 2:21:27 AM PDT by Tempest (No more bailouts. No More Fear Mongers.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

>> Let the chips fall! No bailout! Screw ‘em all! I’ll take my chances! You say that now.

Why, yes, I do say that now. Well, not exactly that — you’re putting words in my mouth I didn’t say. But you get my drift.

What happened? Why have you grown tired of reasoning and gone back to shrieking hyperbole?


46 posted on 09/25/2008 2:22:26 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

NO BAIL OUT!


47 posted on 09/25/2008 2:23:21 AM PDT by PureSolace (God save us all)
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To: Nervous Tick

PLEASE read even 10%

or say a couple of quotes per screen page . . .

of our political & other leaders since 1900 linked in my tagline . . .

and then tell me if you still believe as you posted above.

Doesn’t sound like you’ve done much research in the field.


48 posted on 09/25/2008 2:26:56 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Nervous Tick

So you honestly believe you could walk to the Senate this minute and propose a better solution to this financial crisis than Paulson and Bernanke?

Yes, Paulson is one of the greedy pigmen, which means he knows them inside and out, like a parent who knows his kids tricks because he did them once. Paulson is a moron? And Bernanke, who although theoretically, has spent a lifetime studying the causes and mistakes of the Great Depression. Bernanke is an idiot?

Just 2 stupid men who are so stupid that an expenditure of $700 billion is going to lead us to a crisis of hyper-inflation along the lines of Weimar Germany against a national debt of $13 Trillion, against a GDP of $14 Trillion?

And these 2 men are just dunces who are so naive that they are accidentally going to cause a hyper-inflation and have no chance to stop a systemic WORLD financial collapse.

So what is your plan that you would put before Congress today, this minute. How do you plan to prevent a crash of the bond market, which holds multiple times the value of the stock market? How are you going to free the logjam in commercial paper? How are you going to stimulate lending among institutions that are terrified to lend money they fear they might lose as they are already technically insolvent and are trying to stall and find some way to recapture solvency?

Or is your answer just, crash and burn, bring it all down man, let it collapse, they have it coming, who cares if I get laid off or not and can’t find work for 5 years?


49 posted on 09/25/2008 2:27:55 AM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free
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To: Freedom_Is_Not_Free

>> Paulson is a moron? And Bernanke, who although theoretically, has spent a lifetime studying the causes and mistakes of the Great Depression. Bernanke is an idiot?

Here’s a FACT.

Both Bernanke and Paulson have told us multiple times in their tenure, including quite recently, that the economy was OK.

They never warned us about this supposed horrific event that was just down the pike.

Again, that is simply a FACT. You don’t get to spin it. It just IS.

Now, how would you prefer to explain this FACT?

I’ll grant you that calling either of them “stupid” is hyperbole on my part.

Having said that: is the reason they were so very, very WRONG about recent events — in spite of their experience, education, and access to essentially ALL the financial information there is to possess — because they aren’t quite the top-notch thinkers and executives that they were billed to be?

Or, did they in fact know about the train wreck, and they chose to lie to us?

Which answer do you prefer? If you don’t like “incompetent” we can go with “dishonest”. I chose “incompetent” because it seems more charitable. But it seems to me that it’s one or the other. Either they didn’t know, or they knew and they lied to us.


50 posted on 09/25/2008 2:37:23 AM PDT by Nervous Tick (I've left Cynical City... bound for Jaded.)
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