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Said TacticalogicLeGrande and I have already discussed this. We seem to be in general agreement on some points, and we may still disagree on others.

But what about the point in question - as to whether, for an observer on earth, at an instant in time, the sun's apparent position will be 2.1 degrees behind its actual position? Do you agree with LeGrande on that one? Even though his same math and method would put Pluto out of the night sky when seen in the night sky? And even though there are no supporting scientific reports? And even though there are plenty of scientific reports which describe the sun having an apparent instantanious displacement of about 20 arcseconds -- not 2.1 degrees?

If you Believe in spite all of that, or if you believe that LeGrande sincerely believes, then the only conclusion I can come to is that you're of the same religion (Atheism, Naturalism, whatever it may be) of LeGrande and you'd take just about any absurd thing by faith if it was said by someone of your religion. I thought you might have practiced some logic at some point in your history, judging by the looks of your nickname.

I have no inclination see no good reason to join what appears to be a personal vendetta over whatever remaining difference of opinion we may have on the subject, so NO.

Differences of opinion? Uhh, this is science we're talking about here. We're talking about whether there is a 2.1 degree instantanious apparent angular displacement of the sun, or whether Pluto is apparently 102 degrees displaced. Simple math and geometry.

Is that how you arrive at your scientific knowledge -- pick some feller who's opinion you like then just take his opinion as gospel?

And this takes me exactly right back to my earlier statement - the fact is that there are lots of folks like you and LeGrande who love to teaching wrong ideas that they know is wrong in order to further their agenda -- and of course none of them will counter their fellow Believers even though they know things aren't right -- and I maintain that this is indeed why science education is today in such shambles.

But a lie is a lie!

The fact that LeGrande refuses to answer the my question ("What if the sun were 12 light hours away..") and refuses (or is unable) to provide a single supporting scientific article - these facts tell me that LeGrande must know that he's wrong and is therefor intentionally knowingly lying.

-Jesse

Uhh, this is science we're talking about here.

I don't think so.

If you Believe in spite all of that, or if you believe that LeGrande sincerely believes, then the only conclusion I can come to is that you're of the same religion (Atheism, Naturalism, whatever it may be) of LeGrande and you'd take just about any absurd thing by faith if it was said by someone of your religion. I thought you might have practiced some logic at some point in your history, judging by the looks of your nickname.

This is about going after people because of their religious belifs, and I'm not going to help you do that.

And this takes me exactly right back to my earlier statement - the fact is that there are lots of folks like you and LeGrande who love to teaching wrong ideas that they know is wrong in order to further their agenda -- and of course none of them will counter their fellow Believers even though they know things aren't right -- and I maintain that this is indeed why science education is today in such shambles.

Yes, this gets to the core of the problem. If there wasn't something fundamentally wrong with Darwinians then there would be no need for them to support Darwinism with so many specious and mendacious arguments as they constantly do. And the same applies to atheists who blather about physics; who cast their weird lobotomized ideas into scientific-sounding form and then force others to accept them, on pain of being called science-deniers if they resist. This farcical abuse of science has been going on a long time, as you can see from the following exposure:

Clodd's Primer of Evolution.

I suppose that the reason why atheists knowingly teach scientific and philosophical perversions under the aegis of scientific authority, is to wear down the brains of their victims until nothing at all makes sense: there is neither truth nor falsity; nothing can be proved; fact and fairytale are indistinguishable; everything is an illusion of bouncing atoms and waves of nothing; the Sun is 2.1 degrees away from where you see it; monkeys change into people; and so on. Nothing wearies the mind more than a steady diet of lies and fallacies. This conditioning admirably prepares the unfortunate victim's brain for its destiny as a receptacle of atheism.

mrjesse - But what about the point in question - as to whether, for an observer on earth, at an instant in time, the sun's apparent position will be 2.1 degrees behind its actual position? Do you agree with LeGrande on that one? Even though his same math and method would put Pluto out of the night sky when seen in the night sky? And even though there are no supporting scientific reports? And even though there are plenty of scientific reports which describe the sun having an apparent instantanious displacement of about 20 arcseconds -- not 2.1 degrees?

mrjesse - Of course the sun will still appear to move at 2.1 degrees per 8.3 minutes after it is shut off. (LG I added the last part 'after it is shut off' for clarification.

By your own logic, the Sun can't appear to continue moving if the actual and apparent position are only 20 arcseconds apart (or at least not more than 20 arcseconds anyway, which is miniscule.) Which is it mrjesse? Does the Sun appear to continue to move across the sky for 8.3 minutes or does the Sun appear to stop in the sky until the light goes out?

But a lie is a lie!

I think that you actually believe that you know the truth, that is scary. When someone shows me an error that I have been making, I thank them. I don't call them a liar. When someone points out an error to you creationists you attack them. I suppose you attack out of fear and rage, trust me, the fear and rage can be replaced by awe and amazement when you truly start seeing the Universe for how it is, but that involves letting go of false beliefs.

The fact that LeGrande refuses to answer the my question ("What if the sun were 12 light hours away..") and refuses (or is unable) to provide a single supporting scientific article - these facts tell me that LeGrande must know that he's wrong and is therefor intentionally knowingly lying.

I have answered the question. You are the one that is lying mrjesse. You also have the tools to answer the question yourself. If you look at an object 12 light hours away as it comes up over the Eastern horizon (at which time its light is shut off) which direction will you be facing 12 hours later when you see the light go out? East? Straight up? West? I know you know the answer so I will save you some time, you will be looking West, 180 degrees from when you first saw the object and the light was shut off. Thus, from the observers frame of reference, the actual and apparent position are 180˚ off, not your measly little 20 arcseconds or so.

Now mrjesse, do you know why Astonomers don't use the Earth as our frame of reference? In fact there is no absolute frame of reference. I know that you have stated that you don't want to get into that but sometimes background knowledge is important : )