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NAVAL AIR FORCE HELD WORLD’S BEST (3/8/39)
Microfiche-New York Times archives, McHenry Library, U.C. Santa Cruz | 3/8/39 | Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

Posted on 03/08/2009 8:06:05 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: milhist; navair; realtime
If you would like to be added to or deleted from the Real Time +/- 70 Years ping list, send me a freepmail. You can also search for these articles by the keyword realtime, going back to the first one on January 27, 2008. These articles are posted on the 70th anniversary of their original publication date.
1 posted on 03/08/2009 8:06:05 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: fredhead; r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; GRRRRR; 2banana; ...

Today’s post is everything on page 10 of the news section.


2 posted on 03/08/2009 8:07:27 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
"Voters Still Back War Referendum"

A constitutional amendment that would require a national referendum to go to war. I never heard of that.

3 posted on 03/08/2009 8:10:27 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: 2banana
A constitutional amendment that would require a national referendum to go to war. I never heard of that.

Me neither. Interesting idea, if impractical.

4 posted on 03/08/2009 8:14:44 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Thanks for the posts. I'm sure these questions have been asked before, but here goes. How do you obtain all the old articles you post? Are they in a central location or do you have to hunt for them?

Also, do you have an opinion whether Fall of the Third Reich is a creditible resource? I think I will buy it soon.

5 posted on 03/08/2009 8:25:15 AM PDT by Loyal Buckeye
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
they were so wrong on the superiority of naval aviation. great book mainly about midway, but detailing how good japanese were at start of war is "shattered sword" shattered sword
6 posted on 03/08/2009 8:32:17 AM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: 2banana
"A constitutional amendment that would require a national referendum to go to war. I never heard of that."

The amendment never passed, of course, and we can see that as fears of war in Europe increased, support for it was already falling.

After Pearl Harbor, 12/7/41, the whole issue became moot, because now it was no longer a "foreign war."

7 posted on 03/08/2009 8:40:46 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Very interesting articles.

Can anyone verify that the naval exercises these reports talk about included a US Navy "attack" on the fleet sleeping at Pearl Harbor?

I know there were several similar exercises, any one of which put the lie to claims that "no one expected" such an attack. In fact, by December 1941, our Navy had been practicing these for many years.

8 posted on 03/08/2009 8:49:51 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: Loyal Buckeye
How do you obtain all the old articles you post? Are they in a central location or do you have to hunt for them?

I should put an explanation on my profile page - both where the articles come from and what my crazy project is all about.

I find all the articles on Microfiche at U.C. Santa Cruz. They have files full of reels for the New York Time, San Francisco Chronicle, L.A. Times, and more. I stick to the NYT because they have the broadest coverage. The microfiche readers are connected to printers that the public can use for no additional charge. (Parking is $6, however.) I can sit and run through the reels for about 6 hours before I get too punchy to continue. That gets me through about one to one-and-a-half months. I take all my copies home and do a cut and tape process to put the articles in 8 1/2 X 11 format for scanning. I upload the images to photobucket and then generate links for posting here. Those I download to Word documents, which I post when the big day comes. I estimate conservatively that I spend about 20 hours to get one month's worth of articles ready to post.

As for The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I think it is an amazing eyewitness account by a trained journalist. Shirer was in Europe for all during the thirties (I think) and spent the war years in England. He was in the audience when Hitler made some of his major speeches. On rare occasions Shirer lapses into the first person when he wants to relate his personal memories or relate what was in his diary. Third Reich is really thorough. Shirer might have a left-leaning bias, but it doesn't distort his reporting enough to diminish its value. He is clearly anti-Nazi. I don't recall him showing such hostility to Stalin or the Soviet Union. But the book is not about Stalin so it doesn't bother me. Other freepers may have a different opinion based on more knowledge. Anyhow, the book is 1143 pages of fascinating history.

9 posted on 03/08/2009 8:53:47 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
NAVAL AIR FORCE HELD WORLD’S BEST (3/8/39)

March 1939?

Grumman F3Fs, Douglas TBDs, Curtiss SBCs against Mitsubishi A5Ms, Makajima B5Ns, Aichi D3As

Add combat experience, there's a clear winner here.

10 posted on 03/08/2009 9:07:31 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy ( As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities. - D)
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To: BroJoeK
Can anyone verify that the naval exercises these reports talk about included a US Navy "attack" on the fleet sleeping at Pearl Harbor?Now I wish I had collected more articles on the war games. They were on the front page for several days. I don't believe these games involved the Pacific fleet. I may be wrong.

I know there were several similar exercises, any one of which put the lie to claims that "no one expected" such an attack. In fact, by December 1941, our Navy had been practicing these for many years.

I am in the middle of At Dawn We Slept, by Gordon Prange. He describes the war games simulating a Japanese attack on Hawaii in the May 1941. The problem was that General Short saw it as an assault on the islands and not the fleet. He saw his mission as defending against an amphibious attack backed by surface ships.

11 posted on 03/08/2009 9:08:04 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
"I am in the middle of At Dawn We Slept, by Gordon Prange. He describes the war games simulating a Japanese attack on Hawaii in the May 1941. The problem was that General Short saw it as an assault on the islands and not the fleet. He saw his mission as defending against an amphibious attack backed by surface ships. "

I tried googling up reports on US Navy exercises during the 1930s.

According to this link: Admiral Yarnell attacked Pearl Harbor with Lexington and Saratoga, February 1932.

According to Wikipedia there was a 1933 US Navy exercise attack on Pearl Harbor

This report: 1933 & 1939 Naval exercises says: "The Navy held similar games involving a Pearl Harbor attack by enemy aircraft carriers in 1933 and in 1939. In the 1939 exercise, aircraft from the carrier USS Saratoga succeeded in a surprise attack on a Sunday morning. The attacking aircraft “sank” several ships at anchor in Pearl Harbor and attacked Hickam, Wheeler and Ford Island airfields before returning safely to their carrier."

This link says, Admiral Kimmel sent Fleet to find Japanese on November 23, 1941 but was ordered by Washington to return to Pearl Harbor.

Somewhere else I read that the US Navy practiced attacking Pearl Harbor every year during the 1930s. Seems pretty clear that the idea of such an attack was not so far from the thinking of top US officials.

12 posted on 03/08/2009 10:29:33 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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To: Loyal Buckeye
Fall of the Third Reich

If you are speaking of 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich', as long as you are aware of the author's bias, it can be an excellent source of information. It's a very good place to start for an overview of the period.

13 posted on 03/08/2009 10:49:30 AM PDT by PAR35
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To: Homer_J_Simpson; PAR35

Thanks.

And thank you HJS for your hard work.


14 posted on 03/08/2009 12:03:00 PM PDT by Loyal Buckeye
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To: magslinger

ping


15 posted on 03/08/2009 2:33:21 PM PDT by Vroomfondel
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To: Loyal Buckeye; PAR35

I highly recommend “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by William Shrier. Like Par says he can be biased, but I cant think of an author that is not. In the forward of his book he even admits that there is a degree to bias to it since he lived many of the events. However he does for the most part report factually and does point out in his text when his opinion is involved. If you read objectively you will get a lot out of this book. I also recommend the “Berlin Diary” by the same author.


16 posted on 03/08/2009 5:25:26 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

I can understand why Leahy and Roosevelt chuckle about their own ship being “sunk” from under them in these exercises, but I would bet that behind the scenes this would be very alarming at least to the admiral. The command ship and the central control point was wiped out at the onset of the attacks thus cutting the head off the operations. Not a good thing and a fine example as too how dangerous air power is to naval fleets when properly employed.


17 posted on 03/08/2009 5:28:19 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Oztrich Boy

Not to mention that P-40 and the P-38 are just barely comming off of madien flights and there are not deployed units of either yet.


18 posted on 03/08/2009 5:32:56 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

I’m just about to finish up “An Army at Dawn” myself and then I need to review Shrier again in preparation for the end of Czechoslovakia here in a few days. I’m thinking that the next book will have to be “The Day of Battle” to continue the trilogy and hope that Atkinson has the third one done by the time I finish it. It can be a hard read since at least with “An Army at Dawn” U.S. troops are surely not shown at its finest. There was a lot of learning through big mistakes in the African campaigns.


19 posted on 03/08/2009 5:37:20 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: CougarGA7

I appreciate the feedback. I’ll check out the Berlin Diary as well.


20 posted on 03/08/2009 5:49:51 PM PDT by Loyal Buckeye
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To: BroJoeK

While an attach on Pearl Harbor had been wargamed several times, the US expected the main Japanese thrust to be at the Philippines, Malaya, and the Dutch East Indies, which in fact was what happened.

The Pearl Harbor strike was a one shot given the distance involved. There was opposition to it in the Imperial Japanese Navy. Yammamoto lucked out in having two brilliant officers, Fuchida and Genda, to plan and lead the attack. Under other circumstances it might not have worked.


21 posted on 03/08/2009 7:43:26 PM PDT by GreenLanternCorps (01/20/2013 - Liberation Day)
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To: GreenLanternCorps

Which is one of the key reasons why there were not troop transports sent with that task force.


22 posted on 03/08/2009 9:18:40 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: CougarGA7

I wonder if either the ship’s captain or the subs captain suffered any repercussions.


23 posted on 03/08/2009 10:58:51 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

“Shirer might have a left-leaning bias, but it doesn’t distort his reporting enough to diminish its value.”

A good companion to “Rise and Fall” is Speer’s Inside The Third Reich”.

While it doesn’t go in to a lot of detail, it does show that much of the driving factor behind the Nazi leadership was a fear of the Soviets and expansionist International Communism. And that expansion was directed right at them. (Something Shirer conveniently leaves out).

And a LOT of the Anti-Soviet feeling in Germany was driven by the slaughter of so many Ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) and the Armistace stopping Germany from helping them. Ger. Some sources say up to 1 million were killed by the Communists during the Polish Wars of Independence from 1919-1921.


24 posted on 03/08/2009 11:19:45 PM PDT by tcrlaf ("Hope" is the most Evil of all Evils"-Neitzsche)
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To: PAR35

I wonder too. If it were me I would have pinned a medal on the sub captain at the very least. And then I would have to start looking at what our anti-submarine procedures were.


25 posted on 03/09/2009 6:08:08 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: CougarGA7; PAR35
He added that the "torpedoing" was not a part of the scheduled manoeurves, "so it did not count."

Tell that to the CO of the Houston.

From Wikipedia:

Houston became flagship of the U.S. Fleet on 19 September 1938, when Rear Admiral Claude C. Bloch brought his flag on board her, and maintained that status until 28 December, when she returned to the Scouting Force. Continuing the now-familiar routine of training exercises, she got underway for Fleet Problem XX, on 4 January 1939 from San Francisco, sailed to Norfolk and Key West, and there embarked the President and the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral William D. Leahy, for the duration of the problem. She arrived Houston, Texas on 7 April for a brief visit before returning to Seattle, where she arrived 30 May.

26 posted on 03/09/2009 7:19:13 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
He added that the "torpedoing" was not a part of the scheduled manoeurves, "so it did not count."

So did these not count too? I want a do over!!


27 posted on 03/09/2009 8:13:58 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Ok. I had to post this. This is the March 8th 1939 UK-Telegraph article titled Women leaders meet 'perfect Nazi woman' - Mar 8, 1939

Now after reading the article I felt I needed to go find out what this Frau Gertrud Scholtz-Klink (perfect woman mind you) looked like.

Here she is.

Ummm! Not so much.

28 posted on 03/09/2009 8:19:54 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Vroomfondel; SC Swamp Fox; Fred Hayek; NY Attitude; P3_Acoustic; Bean Counter; investigateworld; ...
SONOBUOY PING!

Click on pic for past Navair pings.

Post or FReepmail me if you wish to be enlisted in or discharged from the Navair Pinglist.
The only requirement for inclusion in the Navair Pinglist is an interest in Naval Aviation.
This is a medium to low volume pinglist.

29 posted on 03/09/2009 1:58:08 PM PDT by magslinger (I talk to myself but sometimes I like a third opinion.)
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To: CougarGA7

More likely the other way around however. The boss was embarrassed, so the sub captain probably found a desk somewhere.


30 posted on 03/09/2009 4:11:36 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: fredhead; r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; GRRRRR; 2banana; ...
[The following is a sort of preview of the coming eventful week. – Homer]

A wave of perverse optimism had swept across the British scene during these March days. In spite of the growing stresses in Czechoslovakia under intense German pressure from without and from within, the Ministers and newspapers identified with the Munich Agreement did not lose faith in the policy into which they had drawn the nation. For instance, on March 10 the Home Secretary addressed his constituents about his hopes of a Five Years' Peace Plan which would lead in time to the creation of "a Golden Age". A plan for a commercial treaty with Germany was still being hopefully discussed. The famous periodical Punch produced a cartoon showing John Bull waking with a gasp of relief from a nightmare, while all the evil rumours, fancies, and suspicions of the night were flying away out of the window. On the very day when this appeared Hitler launched his ultimatum to the tottering Czech Government, bereft of their fortified line by the Munich decisions. German troops, marching into Prague, assumed absolute control of the unresisting State. I remember sitting with Mr. Eden in the smoking-room of the House of Commons when the editions of the evening papers recording these events came in. Even those who like us had no illusions and had testified earnestly were surprised at the sudden violence of this outrage. One could hardly believe that with all their secret information His Majesty's Government could be so far adrift.

Winston S. Churchill, The Gathering Storm

3/10/39: Stalin postulates a "kinship" between Nazism and Communism in his radio speech

http://www.worldwar-2.net/prelude-to-war/prelude-to-war-index.htm

Read all about it tomorrow.

31 posted on 03/10/2009 4:32:09 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: PAR35

best book ever on the subject is “coming of the third reich” its the first of a three part series, the second being “third reich in power”. i dont think the last on eis out yet.

coming of the third reich is the only book i read that really explains why and how the nazis were able to come to power. pretty intersting. a lot of lessons there for USA.


32 posted on 03/10/2009 5:50:22 AM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Agricultural secretary killed by his own grain. See, even then the earth was trying to warn us about global warming, or cooling, or something.


33 posted on 03/10/2009 6:08:46 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: CougarGA7

That’b because you’re not the perfect man yet. After a few beers, you will be.


34 posted on 03/10/2009 6:09:48 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido

“few” is probably too mild of a word to capture me getting interested in Frau Scholtz-Klink here (horses whinnying in background).


35 posted on 03/10/2009 6:19:19 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Meanwhile the back channels of the French government reported the comming storm. The French Yellow Book has these communiques from the French Minister in Prague to Paris.

M. V. DE LACROIX, French Minister in Prague, to M. GEORGES BONNET, Minister for Foreign Affairs.
Prague, March 10, 1939.

THE negotiations that were taken up again yesterday in Prague by the delegates of the Slovak Cabinet have culminated tonight in a new crisis which led the Government of Prague to dismiss President Tiso, as well as the Ministers Durcansky, Cabusinsky and Vanco. At the same time, the Czechoslovak Government entrusted the Government of the province to M. Sivak, who until now was Minister for Public Instruction.

According to the first information received, it seems that the following interpretation can be placed on the events leading to this decision which does not affect the autonomous arrangements stipulated in November last.

It is said that the Czechs rejected the Slovak proposal for the organization, not of a federal State, but a Confederation of States. In their opinion such a system did not afford them sufficient guarantees and involved serious risks for the future. In the Bratislava Cabinet, with which the Slovak negotiators were in constant communication by telephone, the uncompromising elements are said to have declared themselves for resistance.

In these circumstances the Government of Prague decided to recall the Ministers who were under the influence of the extremists, as well as the Prime Minister of Slovakia, who had proved incapable of keeping them in check. The Government also decided to take important police measures in Slovakia, so as to be ready for any contingency.

LACROIX.

Then later that same day

M. V. DE LACROIX, French Minister in Prague, to M. GEORGES BONNET, Minister for Foreign Affairs.
Prague, March 10, 1939.

ACCORDING to information I have just received from Bratislava, the Central Government until now seems to remain in control of the situation in spite of intense agitation. The military authorities, under the orders of the general who is said to have been sent from Prague, have unlimited control. It is reported that some units of the Hlinka guard made a show of resistance, but that they were held in check It was all confined to a few shots and some scuffling.

The Cabinet of Prague, according to M. Chvalkovsky's communication this morning to my British colleague, is said to be confident of complete success on the home front. As to the attitude of Germany, the Minister for Foreign Affairs had not yet noticed the least reaction from that side.

According to rumours which seem to be gaining strength, concentrations of German troops are taking place near the southern frontiers of Moravia and Slovakia. It should be observed that such rumours, for the time being are interpreted as a probable indication of Germany's desire, by intimidatory action, to exploit the situation created by her agents and to exercise pressure so as to extend her domination over Czechoslovakia.

LACROIX.

I bolded those lines because I found them curious. There is no sign of reaction by the government.......oh, except for the troop buildup on the border. [/scratches head]

I'm sure we'll read more about this tomorrow.

Today I was looking forward to posting the next installment from the Campbell Playhouse but their site is down. Now I wish I would have downloaded all of those so I could have hosted them myself in case this happened. :(

36 posted on 03/10/2009 6:35:35 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson; exg; Alberta's Child; albertabound; AntiKev; backhoe; Byron_the_Aussie; ...
The article mentions Admiral Leahy's advice that the exercise disclosed the need for mor bases.

In September 1939, Great Britain and the British Empire and the Commonwealth nations declared war on Germany following its invasion of Poland.

In 1940 The United States entered into a Lend-Lease agreement with Great Britain whereby the US transferred 50 desperately needed four stacker destroyers to the Royal Navy (some of which went to the Royal Canadian Navy) in exchange for leases on naval bases and air stations in British possessions spread from Trinidad to Newfoundland.

Newfoundland was not then part of Canada but nonetheless the RCN benefited from the deal. The RCN was then heavily involved in the Battle of the Atlantic, with primary responsibility for convoy protection in the western North Atlantic so it really needed the destroyers.

The US made good use of the bases. Even before the US joined the war it mounted a system of neutrality patrols which, although ostensibly to enforce US sneutrality control over the western Atlantic, actually served as an auxiliary naval patrol force to the advantage of the Empire and Commonwealth and the disadvantage of Germany.

37 posted on 03/10/2009 11:21:22 AM PDT by Clive
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To: GreenLanternCorps
"While an attach on Pearl Harbor had been wargamed several times, the US expected the main Japanese thrust to be at the Philippines, Malaya, and the Dutch East Indies, which in fact was what happened."

Many records of the pre-Pearl Harbor warnings and responses were destroyed, so we'll never know exactly who expected what to happen. And those who defend the Roosevelt administration claim that none of the Japanese messages pointing to Pearl Harbor as their target were decoded on-time.

But many records did survive, along with later testimony which adds up to dozens of warnings from spies, diplomats and foreign military (British & Dutch) plus decoded messages.

Indeed, there were enough warnings, along with the fact that the US Navy had been actually practicing the attack for years, that we have to wonder: were these warnings actually overlooked, or were they deliberately ignored, and if so why?

I think the answer is: they were deliberately ignored, and the obvious reason is, for much much larger strategic purposes.

38 posted on 03/12/2009 4:40:34 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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