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Ok...Catholics. Just had a Catholic tell me that I'm not saved by "Grace"
vanity | 06/03/11 | winston's julia

Posted on 06/03/2011 7:29:16 PM PDT by Winstons Julia

I was raised Lutheran and have attended many churches. I was born-again in 2005. I was shocked to have a Catholic tell me that *we* aren't saved by grace alone ... but that we need to recharge our salvation with works.

Now ... it's not that I'm not charitable and kind. We all know the studies about Christians and charitable giving.

But *I'M* NOT saved by Grace? Are you kidding?


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Education; Religion
KEYWORDS: grace; salvation; solagratia
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1 posted on 06/03/2011 7:29:20 PM PDT by Winstons Julia
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To: Winstons Julia

interesting. My husbands cousin is a nun and she has never said that. She talks about Grace and Grace alone.


2 posted on 06/03/2011 7:33:29 PM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: Winstons Julia; it_ürür; Bockscar; Mary Kochan; Bed_Zeppelin; YellowRoseofTx; Rashputin; ...

Actually, the Church does teach Sola Gratia. Without Grace, there is no salvation. We cannot be saved apart from Grace. So it is not incorrect to say that we are saved by Grace alone. There is nothing else that can save us.

The Church also teaches Sola Christo - we are saved by Christ alone. Without Jesus Christ, there is no saving Grace.

It is therefore possible for infants to be saved, even though they have neither Faith nor works.

Beyond the age of reason, we participate in the economy of salvation (which is really the economy of Grace), which includes both Faith and works, which is where the early protestants took a wrong turn. But neither faith nor works could save us without Grace, so they got that one right.

From http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=505494


3 posted on 06/03/2011 7:33:37 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Winstons Julia

the “church” has to have a reason for existing.

If your were Born Again last week your still Born Again this week and next week as well.


4 posted on 06/03/2011 7:34:55 PM PDT by Bailee
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To: Winstons Julia
The Catholic Church teaches (citations are to the Catechism of the Catholic Church):

[2024]Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God."

[2025]We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of His grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God."

5 posted on 06/03/2011 7:38:32 PM PDT by aposiopetic
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To: narses

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9


6 posted on 06/03/2011 7:41:13 PM PDT by crosshairs (The left's hatred of Christianity has blinded them to the REAL threat which is Islam.)
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To: narses

There is a difference, I believe, between Sola Gratia-Grace alone- and Non Gratia-without Grace. The problem is part Protestant (whence the various and sundry Solas) and part semantic (Sola doesn’t actually mean alone as commonly understood).
I run into theological maneuvering via semantics with the folks who tout “unconditional love”.


7 posted on 06/03/2011 7:41:45 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Racist! is the new nigger.)
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To: narses
It is therefore possible for infants to be saved, even though they have neither Faith nor works.

You have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. An infant is incapable of doing that.
8 posted on 06/03/2011 7:42:46 PM PDT by crosshairs (The left's hatred of Christianity has blinded them to the REAL threat which is Islam.)
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To: Winstons Julia

Tell your catholic friend to read the New Testament. And then also pick up a paperback copy of “Destined to Reign” by Joseph Prince. He puts all the “Grace + works” heresy in the round file where they belong; and he does it with the plain unvarnished Scriptures.


9 posted on 06/03/2011 7:43:09 PM PDT by Tucker39
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To: Winstons Julia
Unlike other Christian bodies, the Catholic Church has an authoritative source of Scriptural interpretation - the Church's teaching authority. And the Church's teaching authority - the magisterium - has stated definitively and authoritatively that salvation comes solely by God's free gift of grace.

The person you spoke to is poorly instructed and needs to read the Bible and the catechism a little more attenetively before presuming to make such statements.

10 posted on 06/03/2011 7:43:36 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: crosshairs

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


11 posted on 06/03/2011 7:43:43 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: crosshairs

The age of reason. God has given this assurance, as in David and his child.


12 posted on 06/03/2011 7:44:27 PM PDT by svcw (Non forgiveness is like holding a hot coal thinking the other person will be blistered)
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To: crosshairs
You have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. An infant is incapable of doing that.

13 posted on 06/03/2011 7:44:39 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: aposiopetic

I used to be a Catholic but decided I didn’t have the legal mind to navigate through all of their rules, regulations, traditions, encyclicals, etc. God never intended for salvation to be so difficult, and certainly not something that has to be “achieved”.


14 posted on 06/03/2011 7:44:58 PM PDT by crosshairs (The left's hatred of Christianity has blinded them to the REAL threat which is Islam.)
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To: aposiopetic

The wonder of redemption is that we have been reborn into the Family of God. When we were yet separated, our works were as nothing... just as I take no personal pride in the accomplishments of the neighbor kids. Now, God does delight in our works and the New Testament speaks in many places of God rewarding His children according to their deeds. In essence, Christ merited for man the ability to merit from God.


15 posted on 06/03/2011 7:45:30 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: narses

We are discussing grace, and not faith or works.


16 posted on 06/03/2011 7:45:55 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: crosshairs

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he has faith, but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food: 16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works; and I will show you, by works, my faith. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
-James 2:14-20


17 posted on 06/03/2011 7:47:05 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Racist! is the new nigger.)
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To: crosshairs

You were never a Catholic.


18 posted on 06/03/2011 7:47:10 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

We? Really? You flatter yourself.


19 posted on 06/03/2011 7:47:10 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: crosshairs

It is therefore possible for infants to be saved, even though they have neither Faith nor works.

You have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. An infant is incapable of doing that.-——————

But they are innocent until the age of accountability...


20 posted on 06/03/2011 7:47:37 PM PDT by Freddd (NoPA ngineers.)
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To: crosshairs

“I used to be a Catholic but ...”

Yeah, right.


21 posted on 06/03/2011 7:48:40 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: narses

Examine yourself briefly.


22 posted on 06/03/2011 7:48:40 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake

Mea Culpa,...

These threads can often and easily take away the Grace God gives us.


23 posted on 06/03/2011 7:50:55 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: narses; Winstons Julia

Agreed. Without Grace, there is no salvation. So as you say, Luther’s “sola fide” is not correct, but “sola gratia” is. Actually there is a passage in the much maligned Council of Trent that makes that clear.

Curiously enough, Milton—who was anti-Catholic—gets it right in Paradise Lost. We have free will; but that free will is enabled by grace. Without the saving Sacrifice of Christ, we would have no truly free will. Freedom of choice was God’s gift to Adam and Eve; it was subsequently lost in the Fall, but given back to us again through the Sacrifice of the Cross.

So, Calvin was wrong on that point. We are not saved in spite of ourselves, like it or not; we are saved because we freely choose to do God’s will, enabled by His Grace and by what Milton calls God’s Umpire Conscience, which as St. Paul says, is “written in the heart” of all men.

Because God is a loving God, He wishes to be freely served, not forced to serve. Again quoting from Paradise Lost, in the words of the Archangel Gabriel, “freely we serve, / Because we freely love, as in our will, / To love or not.” But that freedom had to be restored to us by Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross.


24 posted on 06/03/2011 7:51:23 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: crosshairs

I’m sorry you were so poorly catechized. Your experience isn’t unique, unfortunately.


25 posted on 06/03/2011 7:52:41 PM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: Winstons Julia

One side of my family is Roman Catholic and the other Lutheran although they’re mostly agnostic.


26 posted on 06/03/2011 7:53:15 PM PDT by Chi-townChief
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To: crosshairs

So where do you believe the INFANT GOES?


27 posted on 06/03/2011 7:53:22 PM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today:))
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To: Winstons Julia

No works in the name of God are done without Grace. You might think it’s your effort, but that effort is the result of Grace. What you’ve done is open yourself up to receive the Grace, and the Grace then works through you. The misconception is to think you’re the doer. When you understand that it’s the Grace doing the work, and not you, then no egoic mistakes are possible. And usually, if you decide you are the doer after all, the Grace withdraws to get out of your way, and let you find out how much you can actually do on your own, LOL!


28 posted on 06/03/2011 7:53:34 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on its own.)
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To: Cicero

Grace is The Gift, our acceptance (or not) is our free choice. That is the first WORK we must do - to accept His Gift. It is often not the last work we must do.


29 posted on 06/03/2011 7:53:45 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: TradicalRC

Again, the topic under discussion is grace. Rather than making this into an empty fight about faith versus works, it would behoove us to point out that God’s grace is the source of both faith and works - neither faith nor good works can be ascribed to ourselves, but to God’s grace working in us. We are only ever cooperators.


30 posted on 06/03/2011 7:54:42 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: Winstons Julia; All

See? Even on this thread I’m confused by what people are saying.

Are you quoting the Bible? Are you telling me what Catholics believe?

If I am a Protestant ... am I damned? I have had Catholics here on Free Republic tell me that there’s only ONE TRUE CHURCH and it’s theirs?

I don’t want to disrespect you Catholics... but don’t you think you are overcomplicating salvation?

Is there such a thing as “born again” Catholics?

Please excuse my exuberance and clarity ... but I was raised Lutheran... and became an agnostic/atheist .... Jesus saved me in 2005 when I found my stupid self on my knees begging...

I’m just shocked to read Catholics saying I’m NOT saved by that grace.


31 posted on 06/03/2011 7:55:25 PM PDT by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives vent, it's called hate speech.)
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To: narses
Beyond the age of reason, we participate in the economy of salvation (which is really the economy of Grace), which includes both Faith and works,

The Bible does not teach that there are different rules for salvation when one reaches the "age of reason" - whatever that is. Interesting theory but it is not biblical. No amount of works can save us. Nothing but the grace of Jesus Christ can save us. Works are important and should result from someone being a saved Christian however the works themselves do not save us.

I think the whole topic is academic. A saved Christian will benefit from grace and also have works. Cheap grace and ignoring works is not biblical either.

32 posted on 06/03/2011 7:55:48 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: fatima

I have a theory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7EtA8EP6B8


33 posted on 06/03/2011 7:56:52 PM PDT by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives vent, it's called hate speech.)
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To: Winstons Julia

Here is the definitive analysis of the heresies of the Roman Catholic Church:

http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm/Dangers.pdf


34 posted on 06/03/2011 7:57:42 PM PDT by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: Winstons Julia

This is kind of how the early “c”hurch felt about it.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


35 posted on 06/03/2011 8:00:57 PM PDT by Delta 21 (Make your choice ! There are NO civilians.)
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To: Winstons Julia

There are roughly 650 laws on the Old Testament. Roman Catholic canon law exceeds 1,700 rules. (It once exceeded 10,000).

As a Catholic you must keep canon law to be saved.

The New Testament teaches salvation by grace though faith - not by the keeping of laws.


36 posted on 06/03/2011 8:01:37 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Winstons Julia

Your friend wants to work his way to heaven?

Okay, then what is the amount of good works and which good works must be performed to enter heaven?

Can’t you “Tithe” your way in? (Like Elvis getting a black belt)

Why was it necessary for Christ to die for your sins and wash away your sins by his atonement?

Was Christ a good man? A philosopher? A rabbi?

Grace:

God’s
Riches
At
Christ’s
Expense


37 posted on 06/03/2011 8:02:54 PM PDT by Vendome ("Don't take life so seriously... You'll never live through it anyway")
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To: plain talk

38 posted on 06/03/2011 8:03:50 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Winstons Julia
See? Even on this thread I’m confused by what people are saying. Are you quoting the Bible? Are you telling me what Catholics believe?

What do you care what Catholics believe? Are you upset over hearing what Buddhists believe? The question is, what do YOU believe? Because no matter what religion you end up wtih, only you can choose it.

A million people waving holy books in your face won't tell you a thing. Why even post a thread if you're not going to talk about YOUR considerations, to see where they stand? Everyone has questions, so what? And if Catholics think you're not saved, what does it matter unless you're a Catholic? After all, it's not like were talking about Muslims, who will murder you for disagreeing.

You're sounding like a troll, trying to create factional fights instead of treating age-old questions with the respect they deserve.

39 posted on 06/03/2011 8:05:11 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on its own.)
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To: Winstons Julia

You are saved by Grace alone. Works are a response of faith to saving grace.


40 posted on 06/03/2011 8:05:24 PM PDT by GAB-1955 (I write books, love my wife, serve my nation, and believe in the Resurrection.)
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To: Winstons Julia

I’m not Catholic but I was taught that works are an outward manifestation of accepting Christ. Works won’t save you but it does show a changed heart by sharing what you’ve been given. Helping others DOES make one feel good or “recharged”.


41 posted on 06/03/2011 8:07:12 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are at your door! How will you answer the knock?)
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To: Winstons Julia; Chode

42 posted on 06/03/2011 8:08:57 PM PDT by Morgana (I speak no more)
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To: Talisker

“The question is, what do YOU believe? “

I can assure you that I’m not some troll. I don’t even know why you would suggest that.

I have said what I believe. I believe that we are saved by grace, not works.

Apparently ... some people disagree. I posted the thread so that I could get some insight from the Free Republic community.

And it’s STILL confusing regarding what people believe.

I’m not trying to sow bad seeds or foment discontent... I am seeking answers.


43 posted on 06/03/2011 8:12:44 PM PDT by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives vent, it's called hate speech.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
As a Catholic you must keep canon law to be saved.

False.

44 posted on 06/03/2011 8:13:34 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Winstons Julia

I will tell you what Catholics believe and what the Vatican has proclaimed regarding non-Catholic Christians. From CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS
OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH.

(about non-Catholic Christian churches.

“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”

In other words, if you walk in the steps of Jesus, you can make it to heaven. It’s grace, period.

Ask your Catholic friend what his/her idea of being saved came from. Then quote the Vatican.


45 posted on 06/03/2011 8:16:39 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Birther noobie - Wouldn't ya like to be called this too?)
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To: narses

You keep posting this cartoon... is it meant to be an insult?


46 posted on 06/03/2011 8:17:19 PM PDT by Winstons Julia (when liberals rant, it's called free speech; when conservatives vent, it's called hate speech.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

“As a Catholic you must keep canon law to be saved.”

Really? Sez who?


47 posted on 06/03/2011 8:18:07 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Winstons Julia

It speaks for itself. Why did you post this thread again?


48 posted on 06/03/2011 8:19:39 PM PDT by narses ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." Chesterton)
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To: Winstons Julia
I’m just shocked to read Catholics saying I’m NOT saved by that grace.

May we know a few things about this Catholic? Does he or she has any credentials of his/her authority to teach? Is there any reason to think that he or she speaks with any authority about Catholic doctrine. Do you think there's some scholarship here?

I would want to here the exact wording your friend used. But God is the source of every good thing. TO imagine that any fallen human could come up with a truly good work without Divine Favor is nuts.

49 posted on 06/03/2011 8:20:48 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; Winstons Julia

Mad Dawg is the person to ask. The one with all the answers.


50 posted on 06/03/2011 8:23:51 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Birther noobie - Wouldn't ya like to be called this too?)
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