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BIG LOAN BY RFC FOR RUSSIA PLANNED (9/17/41)
Microfilm-New York Times archives, Monterey Public Library | 9/17/41 | Turner Catledge, C. Brooks Peters, Herbert L. Matthews, David Anderson, Ray Brock, Lansing Warren

Posted on 09/17/2011 4:49:50 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: catholic; milhist; piusxii; realtime; worldwarii
Free Republic University, Department of History presents World War II Plus 70 Years: Seminar and Discussion Forum
First session: September 1, 2009. Last date to add: September 2, 2015.
Reading assignment: New York Times articles delivered daily to students on the 70th anniversary of original publication date. (Previously posted articles can be found by searching on keyword “realtime” Or view Homer’s posting history .)
To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by freepmail. Those on the Realtime +/- 70 Years ping list are automatically enrolled. Course description, prerequisites and tuition information is available at the bottom of Homer’s profile. Also visit our general discussion thread
1 posted on 09/17/2011 4:49:54 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Selections from West Point Atlas for the Second World War
Advance on Moscow – Operations, 26 August-5 December 1941
The Mediterranean Basin
The Far East and the Pacific, 1941 – Major Japanese War Objectives and Planned Opening Attacks
2 posted on 09/17/2011 4:51:43 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
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Gordon W. Prange, At Dawn We Slept

3 posted on 09/17/2011 4:53:09 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
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William L. Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

4 posted on 09/17/2011 4:54:11 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
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Winston S. Churchill, The Grand Alliance

5 posted on 09/17/2011 4:55:29 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; GRRRRR; 2banana; henkster; ...
“Big Loan by RFC . . .” With that headline I predict a slow day here at WWII + 70.

Russia Separate – 2-3
The International Situation – 2
Nazis Claim Rout of 3 Red Armies Below Leningrad – 3
Pope Said to Bar Roosevelt Plea to Call War Just – 4
Iran’s Shah Out; Allies Advancing – 4-5
Iran is Regarded as Allied Bastion – 5
Germans Shoot 10 Paris Hostages, but Two More Nazis are Fired On – 5-6
The Day in Washington – 6
Red River ‘War’ Hangs in Balance (by Hanson W. Baldwin) – 7
The Texts of the Day’s Communiques on the War – 8-9
Lewis Bars Plea to Reopen Mines – 9
15,000 to March in Victory Parade – 9

6 posted on 09/17/2011 4:59:02 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/sep41/f17sep41.htm

US Navy expands escort duties

Wednesday, September 17, 1941 www.onwar.com

From Washington... The US Navy increases its role in escorting Atlantic convoys. It assumes responsibility for some of the Halifax to Britain convoys and the security of traffic to Iceland. It will augment the Canadian Naval escorts which travel to 22 degrees west until British ships take over.

In Iran... Allied forces occupy the capital Tehran to ensure that Axis influence is halted.

On the Eastern Front... Heavy fighting in the outlying areas of the city of Kiev between Soviet and German forces.


7 posted on 09/17/2011 5:02:41 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
September 17, 1941

"A general deportation of German Jews begins."


"German police and possibly members of an Einsatzkommando murder Jews who stand helpless in a trench.
Because of the sandy soil, this image may be of an Aktion carried out by Einsatzgruppe A along the coast of the Baltic Sea in Lithuania, Latvia, or Estonia.
Although many German soldiers claimed after the war that they had no choice but to shoot when ordered to do so, the fact is that incidents of punishment of men who refused to participate in execution murders were rare.
Men who perpetrated such atrocities did so because they wanted to."

8 posted on 09/17/2011 5:55:03 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
"German police and possibly members of an Einsatzkommando murder Jews who stand helpless in a trench."

So, how far are we from the day when our own national socialist party, the democrats, start doing the same to conservatives in this country?

9 posted on 09/17/2011 5:58:44 AM PDT by meyer (We will not sit down and shut up.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Homer: "“Big Loan by RFC . . .”
With that headline I predict a slow day here at WWII + 70. "

And yet... that headline buries a number of stories which are still debated to this day.

Oh, dear... where shall we even start?

;-)

10 posted on 09/17/2011 6:10:43 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Headline: "Pope Said to Bar Roosevelt Plea to Call War Just – 4"

Reply is Reported to Stress Vatican Cannot Take Sides With Any Belligerent

By Herbert L. Matthews
"The Pope today gave Myron C. Taylor, President Roosevelt's personal envoy to the Vatican, his prply to the President message, and it appears on good Vatican authority to have been a polite 'no.'

"The refusal is understood to have covered a request to the Pope to declare that the war against nazism is a just war.
However, the Pope's reply was evidently so worded as in no sense to indicate favor toward the Nazis or opposition to the American attitude.

"The problem appears to have been primarily an inability on the Pope's part to take sides and an unwillingness on doctrinal grounds to consider this or any war as just...."

Today's criticisms of the Pope, and outrage that he might be named a "saint", include his inability to morally distinguish between Nazi attrocities and those trying to defend themselves against the Nazis.

If making such distinctions was just too hard for him to do, the Pope should have resigned, and turned his job over to someone more worthy.

So, what do you think, Homer?
Enough to stir up the hornet's nest?

;-)

11 posted on 09/17/2011 6:28:09 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: meyer
meyer: "So, how far are we from the day when our own national socialist party, the democrats, start doing the same to conservatives in this country?"

For decades conservatives have tried to convince Jews that their real political home belongs with us, not with those national and international socialists: liberal, progressive, "no labels", etc., Democrats.
And all this time, most Jews have said "thanks, but no thanks", and stuck with their traditional allies, Democrats from the old FDR mold.

Until... maybe, possibly, can it be?
In Wiener's district, not only the Orthodox, but but also the majority of conservative and other Jews voted for, let's call him what he is: an early supporter / mentor of Rush Limbaugh!

Of course, your comment here is so appropriate, because politically at the least, we conservatives will be standing down in that trench with Jews (or they with us, depending on how you look at it), when the shooting starts.

But maybe this time, we'll be shooting back? ;-)

12 posted on 09/17/2011 6:41:50 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

we were always taught the Pope could talk with God. why didnt he just ask?


13 posted on 09/17/2011 6:50:40 AM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: BroJoeK; Coleus; Salvation; NYer
If making such distinctions was just too hard for him to do, the Pope should have resigned, and turned his job over to someone more worthy.

So, what do you think, Homer?
Enough to stir up the hornet's nest?

That could do it.

I remind readers that this article was written by Herbert L. Matthews, who is unlikely to sympathize with any "crusade against bolshevism," as he calls it in the article. Also please note that much of what he wrote is conjecture based on second-hand reports. As in "It was understood in Vatican circles that the crux of the President's letter . . ." "There appear to be three main points in the Pope's answer." "In Vatican circles, according to what the writer has learned, it is being said . . ."

And by the way, why is Roosevelt asking the Pope to rule on a war in which the United States isn't even (officially) a belligerent?

Beyond that, I am not knowledgable enough on Pius XII, just war doctrine or the Vatican's international relations to mount an authoritative defense of Pius' position in this matter, other than to say he is unquestionably correct in whatever he actually did say.

14 posted on 09/17/2011 7:04:42 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: beebuster2000
we were always taught the Pope could talk with God. why didnt he just ask?

I'm certain that he did. In September 1941 this is substantially a war between Nazi Germany and communist Soviet Union. Perhaps the Holy Spirit preferred not to take sides at this point.

15 posted on 09/17/2011 8:12:10 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

From the article:

“..........The Pope’s reply has been studied for five days and during that time there has been much talk about it in high Vatican circles.”

That is quite some letter to study for 5 days.

“Roosevelt’s promise that he would try to sway the Moscow governments policy toward religious freedom.”

This is why he contacted the Pope but who did he make the promise to?


16 posted on 09/17/2011 8:26:10 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( getting closer to the truth.................)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

“First the British must proceed with the business of clearing Germans out of Iran, as well as rounding up others they have marked as undesirable persons, the most notable being the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. ...............................


The introduction of another character on the world stage................


17 posted on 09/17/2011 8:35:00 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple ( getting closer to the truth.................)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

18 posted on 09/17/2011 10:09:56 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (If I had a dime for everytime someone asked me if I could spare a dime, I'd break even.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson; beebuster2000
beebuster2000: "we were always taught the Pope could talk with God. why didnt he just ask?"

Homer: "I'm certain that he did."

It is said that the Pope showed signs of depression or "nervous breakdown", and that is also said of President Roosevelt in 1941.
Indeed, this request from FDR clearly shows him working to establish a "moral high ground" justifying war.

That the Pope apparently refused to give FDR the moral justification he wanted, while at the same time acknowledging the President's concerns, can be seen as the Pope reminding FDR of something that no politician wants to hear: Roosevelt alone must take moral responsibility for his actions, and no Pope, no matter how clear-cut the circumstances, can remove that burden from him.

19 posted on 09/17/2011 10:10:37 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

moral high ground.

an intersting concept. i have read roosevelts communique brutally critical of the japanese war in china, citing bombing civilians,etc., establishing the “moral” basis for opposing Japan.

by 1945, all that was out the window for USA, and winning, crushing Japan was all that mattered.

i dont disagree with that, but anyone planning on fighting a war “morally” could have problems.


20 posted on 09/17/2011 1:49:54 PM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/month/thismonth/17.htm

September 17th, 1941

U.S.A.: The US Navy takes over responsibility for some of the Halifax-UK convoys and most of the Iceland traffic. Canadian naval forces are escorting as far as 22 degrees West where the British take over.

The Government allocates US$100,000,000 (US$1.176 billion in year 2000 dollars) to the Soviet Union for the purchase of war materials.

In baseball, 20-year-old Stan Musial makes his major league debut for the St. Louis Cardinals against the Boston Braves in Sportsman’s Park, St. Louis. Before 3,585 fans, “Stan the Man” goes 2-for-4 with 2 RBIs. (Jack McKillop)

EASTERN FRONT: Some German successes mark the heavy fighting in the outskirts of Kiev, the capitol of Ukraine.

YUGOSLAVIA: Belgrade: Following attacks on German soldiers in the city, indefinite martial law has been proclaimed by the Serbia puppet regime set up by the Nazis. The regime is planning a punitive expedition into the mountains to round up rebels.

At dawn today, a Royal Navy submarine landed a British agent, Colonel D T Hudson, on the Dalmatian coast for a rendezvous with Tito and the other resistance leader, Mihailovich. Hudson’s orders are to find out which of the two is putting up the tougher fight against the Nazi occupation.

GERMANY: U-356, U-595 and U-596 launched.
U-405 and U-656 commissioned. (Dave Shirlaw)

UNITED KINGDOM: The British are being cajoled into eating more potatoes, one of the few staple food of which there is no shortage. The ministry of food has fixed their retail price at a penny a pound throughout the year.

Ministry advertisements featuring a cartoon character called “Potato Pete” suggest serving a pound per person per day. “Use potatoes in pastry,” he recommends, even going so far as to recommend mashed potato sandwiches. The ministry also sings the praises of carrots and swedes in all guises.

Plans are now being made to apply “points” rationing to tinned foods, beginning in November. Each person will get 16 points to spend on what he or she chooses every four weeks.

MEDITERRANEAN SEA:Convoy HG-73 sailed from Gibraltar. (Dave Shirlaw)

COMMONWEALTH OF THE PHILIPPINES: Hart informs Navy Department that, when hostilities began, he would move his ships to southern Philippine waters. (Marc Small)


21 posted on 09/18/2011 6:26:33 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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