PayPal Does Something Truly Evil

Yahoo Finance ^ | 01/03/2012 | By Mike Schuster

[Swordmaker]

 If truly dispicable acts are now the norm for PayPal (EBAY), Scott Thompson should kick off his new Yahoo (YHOO) gig with a dog fight.

Sharing a heartbreaking account of a buy gone horribly wrong, Helen Killer of the hilarious Etsy send-up Regretsy posted an email from a reader who saw a treasured item destroyed at the behest of PayPal. Reader Erica writes in describing a recent sale she made to a buyer in Canada.

The item in question was a pre-WWII French violin worth $2,500. The buyer, however, disputed the label -- which isn't uncommon, Erica claims, but shouldn't detract from the craftsmanship of the instrument.

She writes, "Rather than have the violin returned to me, PayPal made the buyer DESTROY the violin in order to get his money back. They somehow deemed the violin as 'counterfeit' even though there is no such thing in the violin world."  And to the delight of the buyer, he sent Erica a photo of the destroyed antique.

Erica has since been on the phone with "numerous reps," but they have "100% defended their action and gave me the party line."

And lest you think Erica's situation was solely due to one disgruntled PayPal executive who's declared a war on art, the destruction of items that are simply suspected of being counterfeit is actually laid out in the company's Terms of Service. The very definition of "Smash first, ask questions later."

Although this seems a tad excessive, it doesn't stray far from other acts of delusional and malevolent behavior perpetrated by PayPal.

[visualops]

The buyer, however, disputed the label -- which isn't uncommon, Erica claims, but shouldn't detract from the craftsmanship of the instrument

If you are selling something, and you believe it would be "common" to have its authenticity questioned, you better choose your avenue of sale carefully. Erica is basically saying, "it's a nice violin, even if it isn't what the label says". The buyer obviously didn't care about anything but the label.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

From her own words, it sounds like the seller knew the label was counterfeit.

Was it a....Polyvarius?

[Swordmaker]

http://www.regretsy.com/2012/01/03/from-the-mailbag-27/

As you know, I have had my share of issues with Paypal recently, and while I appreciate the effort they made to do the right thing in our case, I still have a lot of misgivings about them as a company.

This e-mail didn’t help.

Dear Helen Killer,

I love your site and was thrilled to hear of your “win” against PayPal. I recently had a heartbreaking experience of my own with them.

I sold an old French violin to a buyer in Canada, and the buyer disputed the label.

This is not uncommon. In the violin market, labels often mean little and there is often disagreement over them. Some of the most expensive violins in the world have disputed labels, but they are works of art nonetheless.

Rather than have the violin returned to me, PayPal made the buyer DESTROY the violin in order to get his money back. They somehow deemed the violin as “counterfeit” even though there is no such thing in the violin world.

The buyer was proud of himself, so he sent me a photo of the destroyed violin.

I am now out a violin that made it through WWII as well as $2500.

This is of course, upsetting. But my main goal in writing to you is to prevent PayPal from ordering the destruction of violins and other antiquities that they know nothing about. It is beyond me why PayPal simply didn’t have the violin returned to me.

I spoke on the phone to numerous reps from PayPal who 100% defended their action and gave me the party line.

Erica

I forwarded this e-mail to my contact at Paypal several days ago. They have not replied.

UPDATE: I neglected to mention in the original post that the violin was examined and authenticated by a top luthier prior to its sale.

UPDATE 2: Thanks to sharp-eyed reader Mr. Pete, who found this paragraph in Paypal’s Terms of Service:

UPDATE 3: Paypal has advised that they are now looking into the matter.

[AlexW]

“What’s to prevent the buyer of the alleged fake from buying a cheap POS violin from a thrift shop,”
______________________________________________

Reminds me of a favorite event from my teen days.
My maternal grandmother was living with us, and pretty much non compos mentis from hardening of the arteries.
Every five minuets, or so, she would ask what the weather was outside.

My father bought a cheap violin at a pawn shop and gave it to her to see what she would do.
She immediately put it to her shoulder and started playing My Old Kentucky Home. Kentucky was her home state.

[Sacajaweau]

The buyer, however, disputed the label — which isn’t uncommon, Erica claims, but shouldn’t detract from the craftsmanship of the instrument.

[classified]

Agree! This could easily be the scenario. Wonder if the seller had it insured and would it be covered?

[cableguymn]

A few years back I sold on ebay and one customer complained that one of the items was chipped and she wanted to keep all 9 plus get her money back...ebay told her to package up all items and send back to me then they would take the money out of my paypal account...she never sent them back, I was watching her site and she sold them....she didn’t get her money back cause she had no proof that she returned them to me...but paypal still stinks and I finally just quit selling...

---

She didn’t complete the scam. she could have sent back a rock in a box with tracking and paypal would have given her the money. Count yourself lucky.

[trumandogz]

[cableguymn]

When using paypal you got to sell”as is where is, no warranties expressed or implied, all sales final” on the invoice!

---

paypals rules trump yours.

[MindBender26]

Legally wrong.

First, a contract must be negotiated by both parties. This is a contract of adhesion. Although technically legal, she has a great case that PayPal was virtually the only payment source she could use and their actions are unconscionable. In addition, she was not given a chance to defend herself to a reasonable degree.

This is great fodder for class action. Also, Ebay is not about to pay some lawyer in her state $6500 retainer to defend a $2500 action.

She should get a lawyer, write a demand letter mentioning a potential class action and demand $2500 plus 40% legal fees. At a minimum they will settle for $2500, with her paying her own lawyer.

[eastforker]

Nope, you gotta put it on the paypal invoice when you invoice your customer.I have sold hundreds of items through pay pal, some of them running into thousands of dollars, never had a problem

[MindBender26]

In addition, their TOS legal language is horrible. Ebay MAY REQUIRE you to destroy the item?

Ebay is therefore liable for the arbitrary decision they made. Secondly, where did SELLER agree that the item could be destroyed?

Destroy a $2500 work of art to avoid $20 return shipping charges? Does not pass the smell test... and juries eat that stuff up!

“My” damages claim just went to $102,500. Lots of mental anguish, you know.

:)

[goat granny]

The gal was lying as I had seen she already sold the items. She was just trying a scam...didn't work for her she couldn't send back the items....I always described my items and if there was a flaw, it was not only described but had a picture of it...Some times, especially when selling collectible glass ware they cannot complain...I sold a designer purse that had a small flaw and also had a picture of the flaw, it was vintage..she emailed me about it and I told her to look again at the description and picture. She realized it was her error and everything was fine and had great feedback... Was into it for about 4 years, that was enough for me....GG

[Bobalu]

Paypal will have to make the seller more than whole.

The negative publicity is killing them.

[Lancey Howard]

I guess you better not use paypal to sell antiques!

...Or valuable collectible baseball cards, magazines, comic books, etc., etc.
"You thought that Honus Wagner card was what? So you WHAT??"

[Chickensoup]

I have one cc that I use for telephone and internet purchases. Everything else? other cards.

[DJ MacWoW]

Don't Let It Happen Again

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[cableguymn]

As anyone tried?

[Revolting cat!]

Let me tell you about my own experience with e-Bay just today. The first time I ever bid on something, though I seemed to have an account. Perhaps via one of their buyouts like Half.com, I don’t know.

An item I needed. brand new, starting bid $65, or Buy Now for $90. Not bad considering other new offers for $125-179, and used ones starting @$60. But I am replacing a used one myself, which failed after couple of years, so a new one is a must.

One bid $66. I researched the matter to find out about proxy bidding which is setting your max price, known only to you and e-bay, and e-Bay will bid competitively for you up to that price. OK, I set it at $81, and the new bid is set at $71, which tells me that the other guys max price was $70. He or some other bidder (biddie?) bids $72, e-Bay bids on my behalf $73. (This happens over a couple of days.) I’m still the highest bidder. I watch the last minute, my bid of $73 still stands, and in the last few seconds, somebody outbids me with $82. I try to outbid, but there isn’t enough time. I lose! WTF happened? How did anyone know my highest bid of $81? This was ‘sposed to be a secret? Or is this perhaps how e-Bay closes the bidding when the seller’s minimum selling price was set above the highest bid?

Anyway, a few minutes later I found this item on the web from a reputable store for $79, shipping free, unlike the e-Bay auction. Ef e-Bay!

[Oatka]

and in the last few seconds, somebody outbids me with $82. I try to outbid, but there isn’t enough time. I lose! WTF happened? How did anyone know my highest bid of $81?

He didn't. He's a "sniper" who comes in at the last second and makes a bid. It's a common practice. He bid at least $82 (probably something like $90) and legally outbid you.