Response to post "What's So Great About Heaven?" posted yesterday...

The question posed by late yesterday’s post, “What’s So Great About Heaven” elicited some responses, many of which ring true from a Biblical perspective. I was compelled to put in my two cents and was blessed by the research done to compile the Bible verses to support the response. After some editing, I have now posted the response in an effort to resurrect the thread of this discussion. However, words do not do any justice in even beginning to scratch the surface of describing this state of Eternal Bliss we call Heaven. Incidentally, Heaven has nothing to do with the idea commonly portrayed by the movie industry.

The Bible, of course, gives us an indication and a mere glimpse of what words would fail to describe, of what lies in store for those who love Christ and also love His Appearing (2 Timothy 4:8)

Meeting our Creator, Jesus Christ, would have to rank number one on the poll, followed by the joy of meeting our saved loved ones, the Patriarchs, Prophets and Kings of the Old Testament, as well as the Twelve Apostles, the Early Church Founders, many of which are named in the New Testament and finally the Heavenly Host, including our Guardian Angel. This is of course assuming you would be reading your Bible and learning more about this enormous cloud of witnesses, that have preceded us in preparation for this Eternal outcome.

Love is the reigning Principle that envelopes the Atmosphere of Heaven, which is a pure reflection of God's True Character revealed in His Holy Law, the Ten Commandments. The three concepts that most clearly express God's Infinite Love are Truth, Justice and Mercy.

God will engrave His Eternal Law upon our Hearts, as He did on the two tablets of stone on Mt. Sinai (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 11:19)

We will Behold the face of Jesus and He will be our Light and there will be no more sun (Revelation 22:3-5)

God will dwell with Redeemed Humanity for All Eternity for Ever and Ever (Revelation 21:3)

We will eat fruit from the Tree of Life for the healing of the nations and drink from the River of Life (Revelation 22:1-2)

Will keep the Sabbath Eternally on the New Heavens and the New Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23)

The dimensions of Holy City, the New Jerusalem, are described not as a two-dimensional, flat surface area, but as a three-dimensional concept, laid out as a square, 1,500 miles on each side, indicating an engineering and design by the Master far beyond anything that could be even conceived presently by human engineers, let alone past or present constructing abilities. (Revelation 21:16)

As stated earlier, "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard" (1 Corinthians 2:9, Isaiah 64:4), but there is so much more the Bible tells us about the Desire of Ages, which is Christ (Haggai 2:7), who fills the Temple of God with His Glory, and will be also our Peace, our Redeemer, our Healer, our Father and Friend forever.

We are all only a wilful decision away from sealing our destiny to live and reign with Christ forever.

No discussion of Heaven would be complete without pointing out that according to the Bible, we are not going to dwell in Heaven forever, or at least in the sense of "The Third Heaven" that the Apostle John described in the Book of Revelation.

We will celebrate, in that sense, a Thousand-Year, Marriage-Supper of the Lamb in the New Jerusalem; which is the Heavenly City (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 22:1-14) The Bridegroom in this marriage is Christ (John 3:29: John 1:29); and the Bride is the Church composed of the Redeemed of All the Ages (Ephesians 5:32), who will also inhabit the Holy City (Revelation 21:2).

After the Thousand Year Reign with Christ, the New Jerusalem will descend upon the newly re-created New Heavens and New Earth (Revelation 21:1, Revelation 20;6, Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13)

God Created Man to inhabit and fill the whole Earth. The Enemy of Souls has temporarily thwarted this plan through sin and deception of humanity, however God will accomplish His Eternal purposes, while vindicating His Name and Character and ultimately destroying Satan, His Fallen Angels, the ungodly and sin forever in the process.

We will inhabit the New Earth, after the Thousand-Year reign, and build houses and plant vineyards (Isaiah 65:21)

This is not the case of being of a pre-millennial or post-millennial persuasion... it is of a Biblical-view persuasion. Various winds of doctrine have managed to complicate what the Bible very simply and candidly presents.

God is Eternal in all our known dimensions of Time, Space, Substance, Energy and Love, and also in those dimensions that we do not yet know. Consequently, if anyone is still contemplating that Eternity may become boring, the point is being entirely missed and there may be self-serving ambitions that may have taken pre-eminence in trying to conjecture what Heaven may be like.

We are now broken human vessels and even so, we can still perceive the Wonderful Majesty of God in a cursed and blight stricken Creation; still under the shadow of the curse. When Truth and the Life, Christ, is revealed in All His Glory we will no longer need to ask ourselves any more questions. We will understand the nature of our calling and our purpose as to why we were created.

Lucas, your question is a very fair one. But I am not going to give you the popular answer, because the Truth is NEVER popular.

The Truth is that the fire and brimstone eternally for the damned is NOT a Biblical teaching. It was invented sometime around the time of the legalization of Christianity in Rome, for precisely the purpose of gaining converts through scare tactics.

The Bible talks only about Heaven, as referenced in the verses above, and The Second Death and Eternal Fire.

Now let’s define the latter two...

The Second Death is destruction of the Soul. There is nothing after that for the lost soul, simply because it ceases to exist (Revelation 2:11, Rev 20:6 & 14, and Rev. 21:8)

The Eternal Fire referenced in the Bible is the same “Eternal Fire” than consumed Sodom and Gomorrah... Are Sodom and Gomorrah still burning or even smoldering? NO.
In essensce, what is being said is the consequences are ETERNAL, not the physical act of burning Eternally. (Jude 1:7)

Lastly, the Book of Ecclesiastes states that Death, that is the First Death, defined by death of the physical body, is merely a sleep. (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

There is no consciousness in being dead physically or spiritually.

There is more about the topic below:

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/seconddeath2.htm

I would like to add to the idea of eternity with Christ, that what fits us, makes us able to endure and live in eternity is that we are conformed to the likeness of the Lord Himself. We read that 3 things remain: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest is love. God is declared to be love. Jesus proved God's love. So love it is that will enable us to not only live in eternity but to enjoy it: where at God's right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

I'd also like to add my own imagined view of creation: God has created an, seemingly infinite, universe of billions and trillions of stars and other wonders like nebulae, and probably planets, and who knows what. I have sometimes thought that it was meant that Adam and Eve, and their descendants should "go boldly where no man has gone" (to borrow from Star Trek) when God said, "be fruitful and multiply". Imagine a newly created universe of infinite proportions for us to explore with the Lord in eternity.

Now, to me that isn't boring.

On the other hand, the subject of eternal condemnation entered into this thread. That's a tough subject, and one can understand how some reject the traditional ideas of hell. I don't want to be argumentative but I can't agree with what's been said. In neither the Old nor the New Testament there is no way around the teaching that the final condemnation is to an eternal fiery punishment. Being cast into the "Lake of Fire", which is the "second death" means to be in the judgment of eternal fire.

Revelations was mentioned, this verse very plainly speaks of non-ending punishment:

" . . . and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages." (Revelation 20:10)

"To the ages of the ages", is in the Greek "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων". Those words are literally "for eons of eons". Even should one grant that the fire is a metaphorical fire, it is inescapable that that metaphorical fire is said to burn for "eons of eons", or forever - and that, even if taken metaphorically, doesn't sound like there's any end to it.

The possibility of "annihilation" - ceasing to exist - and thus no eternal torment, is not contemplated anywhere in the Bible. Some passages that suggest a sleep like state make relatively obscure statements. Other passages, however, speak very plainly.

There is this from Isaiah:

"For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass from new moon to new moon, and from sabbath to sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh." (Isaiah 66:22-24)

In the New Testament, Jude refers to this eternal fire, mentioning Sodom and Gomorrah as examples, but never does he suggest eventual oblivion:

"But I would put you in remembrance, you who once knew all things, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed those who had not believed. And angels who had not kept their own original state, but had abandoned their own dwelling, he keeps in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, to the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:5-7)

We do read that those two cities were consumed by fire. No one would suggest that they, the cities - buildings and other contents are still burning. However the fire that consumed them is an "eternal fire", and though we don't know explicitly, there is the idea that those people who fell under that judgment are in that fire yet. The reference to Sodom and Gomorrah is intended to refer to the people themselves, it was they who were judged, not the physical cities.

In the Gospels, Jesus says this,

"And if thy hand serve as a snare to thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having thy two hands to go away into hell, into the fire unquenchable; where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot serve as a snare to thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life lame, than having thy two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire unquenchable; where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye serve as a snare to thee, cast it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire, where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:43-48)

And Jesus said this,

"Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

That "eternal fire" "prepared for the . . . " relates us to Revelation 20:10 cited above.

In regards to the objection that there are many billions that are supposed by this theology to be subject to that condemnation because they never heard of Christ, it can only be said that the consistent teaching of the New Testament is that salvation is only through faith in Him.

This all sounds harsh, and undeniably so, but it is the consistent teaching found in the Bible. That is one reason why the preaching of the Gospel is an "offense" and a "rock of stumbling". Ultimately, one can only accept the teachings or reject them, but to say that they are not what they are isn't possible.

One very interesting thought arises from Romans chapter 1. Here Paul says that the very "godhead" can be seen by what He has created:

"for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;" (Romans 1:20)

If we look at the universe, at nature, we see that there is a sort of prodigality with life at all levels. We see that humans have no immunity to all the perils and dangers of the world, hunger, disease, war, natural disaster, wild animals . . . we humans are vulnerable indeed. It's easy to get the idea that we are not as privileged as we might like, that the universe can be a very harsh place to us.

The Bible teaches that the God who made the universe will also judge humanity. And that judgment will be by His standards, and the end results will be what He determines them to be: life immortal with His Son or condemnation to eternal fire. This is probably not a popular opinion, but it's the consistent Bible teaching on the matter. We ultimately either accept it or reject it. But we cannot say that it isn't what is taught in the Bible. The idea of annihilation is based on a presupposition that God wouldn't eternally torment anybody. The language of the Bible suggests otherwise.

Having said all this, I understand that there are conflicting opinions about it. I'm not trying to be offensive or start an argument. But I just tried to point out why I think the language of the Bible points to what I said.

Hell - Sheol - Hades - Gehenna - Tartaroo - Lake Of Fire - Outer Darkness ... Gehenna is the Greek form of two Hebrew words ge hinnom meaning Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).

In both Jewish and Christian writing, Gehenna was a destination of the wicked... The King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

I think you are really stretching the meaning of Hell when you refer to it as a present and future place of eternal torment. By the above definition, if you don’t put on your preconcieved notion and are honest to the text; “hell” simply means the outer darkness and the site of the ancient burial ground in Israel.

It literally means – the grave.

By this definition, how do you read into the text eternal suffering through fire?

The Greek words used in Jude 1:7 – to describe the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, which suffered the “Eternal Fire” you are referring to have been misconstrued by Romish ideaologies that gave birth to this notion of a God of passionate Mercy is also a God of passionate punishment.

I think that is distorting God’s true character and making out to be somewhat bipolar… and it is all owed thanks to distorted Romish, heretical non-christian philosophies of immortal existence outside of God and ancient pagan and death cult ideas about the afterlife.

The word – aiōnios is the greek word for “eternal” in your sense… but by definition it is: Definition : without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be without beginning without end, never to cease, everlasting…

Notice eternal means without beginning and without end. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? Has it been burning since all eternity before judgement was cast as recorded in Genesis? You can't pick and choose and call something ETERNAL if it hasn't been occurring forever, see my point?

If you read the text correctly, in Jude 1:7, it is simply saying the consequences are ETERNAL, just as the consequences of FIRE, are ETERNAL. This is the same verbiage used in Revelation when referring to the Lake of Fire and its consequences.

People believe what they choose to read into the Word of God. I would rather err on the side of what the text is saying, than what so-called Bible-thumping “fire and brimstone” preachers preach, not knowing the true source of their errant teachings.

I believed like you for many years, but discovered the error of my ways. So you are telling me that for a life of constant sinning for 70 or 80 years, if you are robust, according to Psalms, you will be punished by God for ever, and ever, and ever and ever? …And on the same breath you preach a God of Love? I find your doctrine to be found wanting and chockful of irreconcilable differences.

Shalom.

Baruch Hashem Adonai for His Enduring ETERNAL Mercy

Hi, thanks for taking the time to respond. What you have to say provokes one to rethink things. And that's good.

I'd like to reply to a few of your points.

First, the use of various words - they have root meanings as you noted, and they have actual reference to real places. The New Testament makes use of them to describe something else, using familiar terms.

You ask how one reads into the text eternal suffering through fire. I'd say one doesn't. The text itself presents that meaning. I referenced a number of texts that indicated, by the use of some of those words you mentioned, a never ending suffering. Isaiah 66 for instance, or the words of Jesus in Matthew where 3 times He repeated the idea of never ending suffering.

Hell is an interesting word used by the English translators, after all they had to find an English word. But because the original meaning is limited that doesn't mean that they couldn't extend the meaning. That's pretty common. And not just for translators, but users of language in general - meanings get extended all the time, it's a fact of language.

I'd say that when Gehenna was mentioned, the idea was that by talking about something everybody in Jerusalem was familiar with they could be told, what's going to happen at the final judgment is a never ending Gehenna for the wicked.

It's the common place technique of using familiar things to explain things not so familiar. A Metaphor as it were.

About Sodom and Gomorrah, the names of those cities are used to stand as a refernce to the people of those cities. It's another common figure of speach where one thing is used to indicate another thing because of some relationship. Of course the actual cities aren't buring anymore. But the condemnation of the people, that's a different thing altogether.

As to God's character. It is impossible to read either the Old or New Testaments without noticing that God describes Himself over and over again as jealous, angry, vengeful, a consuming fire, fearsome among other things - all of which most people would say are pretty negative. But the simple fact is that they're present, and not just a few instances, but many are found in Scriptures. Many instances of Scriptures passages where God declares that He will punish His enemies are found as well.

And the fact that God also is self described as "love" doesn't require that there be none of the so called negative. There is no "bi-polarity" involved here. God does offer a free gift of salvation through His Son, Jesus. And God also says that any who reject His Son will face His wrath. And there is no conflict of any kind that God is both loving and also ready to exact vengence, which He has called His - and not ours.

That cartoon figure of an old time preacher you present doesn't change the language of the Bible. And no doubt there are those who've not preached anything but anger. But there you have a case of abuse not negating right use.

Perhaps the most striking thing that establishes God's hatred of sin is that Jesus, God in the flesh, being made a little lower than the angels, suffered torment and death and being forsaken on the cross. When I think about that it is no surprise to me that God speaks in terms of eternal punishment.

And that is exactly the reason for condemnation, rejection of the free gift of salvation bought by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. John chapter three says this plainly. Jesus is talking and says,

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:16-19)

This tells us plainly that the condemnation is not for the sins but for rejecting Jesus. It's not our sins that we're condemned for, it's for rejecting the salvation freely offered by the passion of Jesus, His shed blood, and death on the cross. We are condemned for rejecting Jesus.

Just a word of thanks for the benediction of peace that you give when you say Shalom. And thank you for challenging comonplace ideas, too much is taken for granted. I find in myself and in others that for years we just assume something, and it's not until someone challenges it that we really think about it.

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