Skip to comments.DNA Science Challenges LDS History
Posted on 01/17/2012 5:59:43 PM PST by dragonblustar
DNA evidence is offering a serious challenge to the Mormon claim that Native Americans are descended from Hebrew colonizers who came to the Americas around the time Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians hundreds of years before Christ.
Mormonisms founder, Joseph Smith, claimed that an angel named Moroni appeared to him when he was 17 and told him of golden plates buried in a stone box near his familys home in Palmyra, New York. The angel also told Smith that the plates contained an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. Smith retrieved the plates, and his translation of them was published in 1830 and titled the Book of Mormon.
The title page of the Book of Mormon states it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel. The main theme of the book revolves around the descendents of a prophet named Lehi, who was a descendent of the biblical Manasseh, according to Alma 10:3. Nephi and Laman, two of Lehis sons, play principal roles at the beginning of the book. Nephi is described as the righteous son of Lehi while Laman is described as wicked. As a result of his evil behavior, Laman and those who followed him were cursed with dark skin. Many Mormons believe Native Americans are the dark-skinned descendents of the Lamanites.
(Excerpt) Read more at equip.org ...
Murphy insists that the Book of Mormon, touted by fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) as the most correct book on earth, is incorrect when it claims that Native Americans are of Jewish descent. In a 2002 essay titled Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics, he stated, So far, DNA research lends no support to traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans.
17? Nope. The account of the first version of the first vision J Smith was 14, but hey he only had fourteen versions of the first visions...so who knows for sure.
Isn't that funny. Mormons think the bible can't be trusted because it's old and has been edited so many times yet they embrace the different accounts of Joseph Smith's visions.
Basically a cult. This is why there are so few true intellectuals, scientists, philosophers and statesmen who are Mormons.
Ex-Mormon testimony with some excellent links:
That’s a great link! Thanks for sharing!!
Anwyay, does anyone have DNA from Israelites of the 7th century B.C. to compare the DNA of American Indians to?
So, basically, American Indians are Jews? Come on already! Does anyone really believe this? You mean to tell me that the Jews...Sold Manhattan...to the Dutch for 24 dollars worth of beads and trinkets?!! Heh Heh! Right...Good one!
They didn’t own it.
17? Yes. This is talking about the visit from Moroni, not the “first vision” that happened when he was around 14.
17? Yes. This is talking about the visit from Moroni, not the “first vision” that happened when he was around 14.
Well, considering every time J Smith told his first version story (fourteen versions) it was different being(s) who appeared....one two three or was it one.....
No wonder I was confused.
All contributions are for the Current Quarter Expenses.
In other words, FR could go away if the expenses for this quarter are not met.
Where would you go?
Click here or mail checks to:
Free Republic, LLC - PO Box 9771 - Fresno, CA 93794
I assume Mormons do. I don't.
But to say there is DNA evidence disproving it requires assuming that modern-day Jews are descended from the ancient Israelites (that's a very reasonable belief based on what we know of Jewish history, and I think the DNA studies so far support it, but it's not like 2 + 2 = 4). If any American Indians have Jewish ancestry, it's from Jews who came to the New World after 1492.
Mormons believe it. Of course they also believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missiouri (I’m not kidding).
I am reaganaut, and I am an ex-Mormon.
Steelfish you might (actually) enjoy these videos.
Come on, "Milk before Meat" you know the rule.
Missouri is as good a place as any to have put the garden. So what if Mt Ararat is on the other side of the world separated by an Ocean? That proves nothing. If you can't prove a negative it must be true. Prove that Baptism of the Dead doesn't work, AHAH got ya :) Sandy is very convincing with her posts.
Someone needs to defend their faith since they are not allowed to.
Careful or you might start giving Elsie a run for his money.
The dna of native americans is documented five ways to sunday all over the internet and there is no middles eastern or mediterranean influence.
I find the defendent not guilty. As for science vs. religion I'm issuing a refraining order. Science should stay 500 yards from religion at all times."
DNA Science puts the lie to LDS claims of History
Who say dat???
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.
This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."
Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.
Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.
2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:
(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)
1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson said,
"The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."
We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood.
According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented.
Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:
"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."
(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).
When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:
"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."
When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)
Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.
I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parentson the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.
One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.
(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)
Who is you callin' no STATESMAN???
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say Thus Saith the Lord, to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by mens reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidencythe highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidencythe living prophet and the First Presidencyfollow them and be blessedreject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captainhow close do our lives harmonize with the Lords anointedthe living ProphetPresident of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
We DO have some preserved curelom flesh in the refrigerated vault under the Temple in SLC.
It sure LOOKS that way!!
Deconstructing Linus: Portrait of a True Believing Pumpkinist as a Young Man "Each year on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch that he thinks is the most sincere and flies through the air with his pack of toys for all the good little children in the world."
"Each year on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch that he thinks is the most sincere and flies through the air with his pack of toys for all the good little children in the world."
No. This is about sincerity, a subjective standard by any definition.
I wonder if Linus blames himself every year for not picking the most sincere pumpkin patch for his vigil?
I wonder if other Great Pumpkinists castigate Linus by asserting if he were more in tune with the Spirit of the Great Pumpkin, if he were more prayerful, if he read the Holy Writ of the Great Pumpkin with a greater sincerity, that he could indeed rise to the challenge and, via the Spirit, be lead to choose the most sincere pumpkin patch?
I wonder how many years Linus will feel guilty for this failure and blame himself for receiving no answer no matter how sincere he believes himself to be?
I wonder if Linus ever gets frustrated because there is no objective way to measure sincerity? And if he realizes there is no objective standard for such a thing, I wonder if it ever creeps into his mind that his annual mission is nothing more than mindless busywork?
I wonder, does Linus ever has doubts?
For the time being, however, Linus will put aside his doubts and, perhaps as a means of proving his sincerity, begins to proselyte among his friends for converts. Most shrug him off. But Sally, who has a crush on him, believes Linus and agrees to spend Halloween in Linus Pumpkin Patch.
Linus then explains that by using positive language and positive thinking, they may be able to attract the Great Pumpkin to their Patch. He also cautions Sally that negative language and negative thinking will cause the Great Pumpkin to pass them by.
There is no room for doubt when one is a Great Pumpkinist. One should never say if the Great Pumpkin comes but always when the Great Pumpkin comes. "One little slip like that, can cause the Great Pumpkin to pass you by!" Its hard to imagine a benevolent icon such as the Great Pumpkin punishing TBPs (True Believing Pumkinists) for such a minor infraction, but there you have it.
Sally: The Birth of an Ex-Pumpkinist
Because Sally loves her sweet baboo Linus, she sets aside her own Halloween plans of trick-or-treating and a Halloween party in order to spend the evening in the Pumpkin Patch. She converts to Great Pumpkinism because she loves Linus. She respects his opinion. And she wants to make him happy and be supportive. And besides, if its really true, WOW! Wouldnt that be fantastic?
But in the end, the only Being that shows up in the Pumpkin Patch is Snoopy. Linus, believing Snoopy to be the Great Pumpkin, swoons into an ecstatic faint, happy in the knowledge that he has finally deciphered the Great Pumpkins standard for sincerity. But, alas, it is a misplaced hope, and when Linus regains consciousness, there is not only no Great Pumpkin there to reward him, there is one upset little girl.
"I was robbed! I spent the whole night waiting for the Great Pumpkin when I could have been out for tricks or treats! Halloween is over and I missed it! You blockhead! You kept me up all night waiting for the Great Pumpkin and all that came was a beagle!"
"I didn't get a chance to go out for tricks or treats! And it was all your fault! I'll sue! What a fool I was. And I could have had candy apples and gum! And cookies and money and all sorts of things! But no, I had to listen to you! You blockhead. What a fool I was. Trick or treats come only once a year. And I missed it by sitting in a pumpkin patch with a blockhead. You owe me restitution!"
Luckily for Sally, she only missed one Halloween. And though she is demanding restitution, because her participation was voluntary, she will never receive said restitution. Shell simply have to accept the experience as one of lifes absurdities and move on.
However, one can hope that this experience has made Sally a more skeptical person, so that the next time she is presented with such fantastic claims, shell perhaps be inclined to do her research before committing any time, money or emotion.
After all, fantastic claims should be supported by fantastic evidence, right?
The question now becomes, has this experience made Linus a skeptic? After yet again not having his Pumpkin Patch recognized as sincere and after having endangered his friendship with Sally, will he continue to believe?
In spite of a complete and utter lack of evidence pointing to the existence of the Great Pumpkin, and a complete and utter lack of the Great Pumpkins Promise ever having been fulfilled, Linus is a True Believing Pumpkinist to the core. To even admit the possibility that he may be wrong would be to negate all those years of hard work and sincere belief. Linus simply cannot turn his back on his belief.
So if Linus doesn't become an ex-Pumpkinist, what is his strategy? Well, hes going to keep on trying, isn't he?
"What do you mean, 'stupid'? Just wait until next year. I'll find a pumpkin patch, and I'll sit in that pumpkin patch and it'll be a sincere pumpkin patch, and the Great Pumpkin will come! Just you wait and see! I'll sit in that pumpkin patch, and I'll see the Great Pumpkin. Just wait until next year!"
An ELSIE with the runs?
NOT a pretty sight!
And when you guys got nuttin’ ELSE to do...
You just haven't LOOKED in the right place!
The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battlesMormon hides the sacred records in the hill CumorahThe Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyedHundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.
1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.
2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.
3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired.
4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.
5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.
6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.
7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.
8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.
9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.
10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.
11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.
12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.
13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.
14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.
15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.
16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:
17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!
18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.
19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!
20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.
21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.
22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.
I feel like this EVERY day!
This is fun knowing they have a mission to recruit but are warned against engaging with those that ‘oppose them’ and against really explaining what they are trying to sell..
In that video he says when someone asks them a difficult question where the honest answer to it might result in LDS looking silly, they should instead give the answer to a different question, the one they wanted to be asked, one that doesnt make them look so silly..
Question : "Do you REALLY believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri"
Answer : "Did you know the Garden of Eden is one of the foundations of the Christian Book of Mormon.
Yeah right moose, it had nothing to do with the natural progression of technology in a free country won with the sweat and blood of men who don't dodge the draft to go on cult recruiting missions like Romney.
I suppose we should expect to find 7 foot tall men dressed like quakers living on the moon someday like FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Joseph Smith....the scientific breakthrough that FLDS/LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young gave the world when he proclaimed that men live on the sun....Or how abaout the Hollow Earth theory also "invented" by FLDS/LDS founding prophets....Or the actual identity of Bigfoot, revealed by FLDS/LDS "Prophets".
Breakaway LDS sect Mormons....All that and brains too !
I'm surprised " The Anti-Christian Brigade" hasn't come in and condemn this thread as hateful and anti-Mormon.
They gots a life!
Only OLD farts can sit at a computer all day and do what we do!
Mormonisms founder, Joseph Smith, claimed that an angel named Moroni appeared to him . . .
If you want to get technical about it, Joseph Smith said that an angel named Nephi appeared to him. The angel became Moroni after Smith's death.
He angel had no name until 1835. In his lifetime, Joseph Smith, Jr. always used the name "Nephi" for the angel with one exception. In the Elder's Journal of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, vol 1, no 3., p 42 (Jul, 1838), he refers to the angel as "Moroni." That's it. If any scholar is aware of any other contemporaneous use by Smith of Moroni during his lifetime, I'd like to know. Joseph Smith, Jr. always used "Nephi," with that one exception.
According to LDS publication Times and Seasons Vol. III pp. 749, 753, which Joseph Smith, Jr. edited:
"When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God has a work for me to do, ... He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."
The digital version of the TImes and Seasons has been changed to read "Moroni" instead of "Nephi." The printed version edited by Joseph Smith, Jr., available as a digital image .pdf or .jpg is still "Nephi."
The August, 1842, edition of the LDS publication, Millennial Star, printed in England, also published Joseph Smith's story and stated that the angel's name was "Nephi" (see Millennial Star, vol. 3, p.53). On page 71 of the same volume it states that the "...message of the angel Nephi ... opened a new dispensation to man...."
In the 1853 LDS Biographical Sketch (p. 79) of Lucy Mack Smith, the mother of Joseph Smith, Jr., she states that the name of the angel who appeared to Joseph Smith was Nephi.
In both Joseph Smith's handwritten copy of The Pearl of Great Price and the 1851 edition of the same book (page 41) it states:
"He called me by name and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."
A doctoral candidate at Brigham Young University named Walter L. Whipple wrote a thesis titled "Textual Changes in the Pearl of Great Price." In it he notes that Orson Pratt changed the name from Nephi to Moroni in 1878. Fairlds.org acknowledges that changes were made to the Pearl of Great Price but leaves a stub link to discuss them eventually. Yes, one of those common fairlds.org stub links.
The 1853 edition of Lucy Mack Smith's "Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet and His Progenitors of [for] Many Generations," which refers to the Angel Nephi, was banned by Brigham Young and ordered burned, according to The Deseret News, June 21, 1865. It was later republished with the name of Nephi changed to Moroni, among other changes.
"Moroni" was used by Oliver Cowdry once when Smith was alive and Moroni was used by others after Smith's death. Changes were made to some publications after Smith's death to change Nephi to Moroni.
LDS Historian Richard L. Anderson admits that the change was made in Pearl of Great Price to Joseph Smith's handwritten use of the name Nephi. He said it was necessary to be consistent with Smith's other uses. However, he doesn't cite any other use by Smith. And to my knowledge no scholar, LDS or non-LDS, has found any use by Joseph Smith of Moroni other than in that Elder's Journal. Once he gave the angel (or ghost, but that's another matter) a name, Joseph Smith, Jr. consistently said the name of the angel who visited him was Nephi. Any other attributions to Joseph Smith are to changes made to writings after his death, such as the change to Pearl of Great Price that Anderson acknowledges, or the change to Lucy Mack Smith's Biographical Sketches under the order of Brigham Young.
So it's technically correct to say that Mormonisms founder, Joseph Smith, claimed that an angel named Nephi appeared to him.
Historical revisionism TP, Smith's earliest known attempt at fabricating a 'vision' story is presented in smith's own handwriting in "History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1". In that account -
Smith claims to have determined HIMSELF all other religons were wrong.
He stated 'god' visited him "in his 16th year" (15 yrs old).
And when 17 some angel tells him about the plates. However - Smith contradicts himself just two years later, retelling the story in "Messenger and Advocate" in 1834 by saying that:
He desired to know if a Supreme being did exist, and wanted manifestation that his sins were forgiven.
No mention of ANY visitation 3 years earlier.
Now really TP, IF "god" appeared to smith when he was 14 (or 15), WHY would he be inquiring at 17 IF a 'god' exists.
Multiple contradictory stories - why believe the only one that smith DIDN'T WRITE himself?
Yes we do have DNA. It is in the form of walking, living, breathing people today who have very pure bloodlines. The same goes for Native Americans.
DNA is just one evidence for the BOM falsehood. No physical evidence for the BOM has been found.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.