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The FINAL Answer: 9mm v. 45! A Doctor Explains Wound Ballistics
YOU TUBE ^ | unknown | unknown

Posted on 09/07/2012 8:30:03 PM PDT by ExSoldier

WARNING GRAPHIC PHOTOS!

WARNING! GRAPHIC MATERIAL!


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: 45acp; 9mm; banglist
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A friend of mine sent this to me. He is associated with Air Rescue here in Miami Dade and is himself both a former US Army Officer as well as being fully EMT qualified.

We've hashed this question out endlessly here on FR as well as on countless gun forums. Thought you folks would enjoy some sobering facts on a friday night. It's a pretty definitive presentation on the wounding effects of not only the 45 versus the 9mm but speaks to the same for rifles as well. Once more WARNING: Graphic Photos of morgue images showing the actual effects on real bodies, including the body of JFK. This little movie is about 34 minutes long so be prepared to watch and listen carefully. Plus the Dr in question is foreign born so he has a bit of an accent. But he's good with a fairly ummmm dry sense of humor.

1 posted on 09/07/2012 8:30:10 PM PDT by ExSoldier
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To: ExSoldier

I will look at it later. From everything I have heard from POs and combat veterans, there is no comparison between the 9mm and the more effective .45.

Not looking forward to the images but looking forward to the information.

Thanks for posting.


2 posted on 09/07/2012 8:36:32 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (Where would Christianity be if the early believers put their hopes and trust in the Roman empire?)
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To: ExSoldier

There is no doubt that from a ballistics perspective the .45 is better, however, it still all comes down to the shooter. Get the gun you are comfortable with and become proficient. Get a lot of range time.

I often carry a Walther PPK which is even smaller of a caliber, a .380 but after thousands of rounds on the range, I think I would line myself up against any gang banger cocking a .45 or 9mm sideways and not worry ballistics tests. (not to say I don’t also have 9mm’s (CZ75s & Walther P99) and .45s(Dan Wesson CZ 1911) as well. So some day that gang banker may get even more unlucky.


3 posted on 09/07/2012 8:44:56 PM PDT by mnehring
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.


4 posted on 09/07/2012 8:45:34 PM PDT by South40 ("Islam has a proud tradition of tolerance." Hussein Obama, Cairo, Egypt, June 4, 2009)
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To: ExSoldier
I was less than impressed. He played fast and loose with statistics (who hasn't), and lost me on the .223 wound damage RCA. Even cooks know what hydrostatic shock is.

His accent isn't bad, if one isn't a provencial putz. I say that as a guy that lost a lot of his hearing to firearms without hearing protection, loud music, and jets at AB, with hearing protection, up close and personal.

/johnny

5 posted on 09/07/2012 8:46:46 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ExSoldier

Nope, there is no 100% answer. Too many other variables.

I’m way way away from being any sort of authority, but based on what I know I would vote for a 9mm with some high tech DRT frangible ammo over a 45 in most civilian carry situations.

Now if we got into a Bosnia type situation here, that’s a different matter.


6 posted on 09/07/2012 8:47:15 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: mnehring
The largest land mammal in recent memory, Jumbo the Elephant, was sent off this mortal coil after a train accident by a Vet with a .22 short. Applied correctly.

Shot placement, knowledge of the target, and Christian mercy put a critter out of it's pain.

/johnny

7 posted on 09/07/2012 8:51:49 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ExSoldier

Concealed Carry or Open Cary?


8 posted on 09/07/2012 8:51:49 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (EAT MOR CHIKIN)
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To: ExSoldier

Ick! But I’m sure Hubby will find it informative. Thanks for posting.


9 posted on 09/07/2012 8:52:09 PM PDT by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: ChildOfThe60s
My pistol is something I carry to the bathroom in the morning to give me time to get to my rifle.

I dislike pistols, don't like shooting them, and would take my AR-7 over either one of my carries if I was ever in a fire-fight.

Gets down to ugly, I'll pick up something in a 7.62x39 or NATO, depending on what is around. If it gets ugly, they will be available.

/johnny

10 posted on 09/07/2012 8:56:19 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
and would take my AR-7 over either one of my carries

DUDE! (as my stepdaughters would say)

Back in the day, I had an AR-7. Fell in love at first sight. Henry Arms now makes them, and I found one locally, at a Dick's of all places.

Trying to talk The Bride into buying one. Maybe as a wedding gift?

11 posted on 09/07/2012 9:01:10 PM PDT by Old Sarge (We are now officially over the precipice, we just havent struck the ground yet)
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To: ExSoldier

I’ve been told by someone who knows that one hit from .45 would have knocked the Aurora shooter off his game. A 9mm would not.


12 posted on 09/07/2012 9:03:38 PM PDT by hope
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To: ExSoldier

A .45 if attacked by a mob, and a 9mm if one-on-one (or two).


13 posted on 09/07/2012 9:03:57 PM PDT by conservative sympathizer
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To: hope
I’ve been told by someone who knows that one hit from .45 would have knocked the Aurora shooter off his game. A 9mm would not.

Getting smacked with a baseball bat (about 90 ft/lb/sec) will knock you off your game. A .22LR will do as much or better. People shooting ANYTHING at you tends to loosen the bowels and make you think about doing less stupid stuff.

Your expert may not be.

/johnny

14 posted on 09/07/2012 9:08:15 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: conservative sympathizer
A .45 if attacked by a mob

To hell with that... I want enfilade fire from .50BMGs from at least 3 positions, and a rifle with a 'group therapy' mode switch in my hands.

/johnny

15 posted on 09/07/2012 9:11:22 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Even with body armor?


16 posted on 09/07/2012 9:14:15 PM PDT by hope
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To: ExSoldier

I am Old School. The U.S. Army chose the .45 ACP in 1911 to stop the raging loonie Moros in the Philippines because the .38 Colt SAA wasn’t up to the job. Nothing beats successful practical application in a stressful situation. That is all that I needed to make my choice.


17 posted on 09/07/2012 9:14:46 PM PDT by wjcsux ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell)
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To: mnehring

Held a CZ75 once. It was like butter.


18 posted on 09/07/2012 9:16:28 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (EAT MOR CHIKIN)
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To: Old Sarge
Mine is almost nearly shot out. I've run over 10K rounds through it, plinking, clearing varmits, etc... It does hold inside 2 inches at 100 yards, but I'll blame that on the barrel, and not my eyes or aging hands.

They are cool little pieces of equipment. I taught both daughters to shoot with it, and they both qualified expert with rifles during basic training.

Buy one for the Bride. All she can do is shoot you with it if she doesn't like it. ;)

/johnny

19 posted on 09/07/2012 9:17:04 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: hope

Your comment about .45 is ridiculous.

As a hunter, and someone who grew up in/around guns (primarily rifles), you see a lot of deer shot.

Here’s the breakdown

1) KNOCKDOWN It matters WHERE you get shot. Caliber/FPS makes no difference if you don’t hit large mass. Arm/leg through and through does not knock down. IF you hit a bone, FPS / Caliber does not matter, you get knockdown. The ONLY slight edge a big, slow bullet has is in knockdown.

2) GET UP - after knockdown, the deer can still get up, it’s running on adrenaline. It can’t get up though if heart or headshot, or broken support bone.

3) RUNOFF - the less blood, the longer the animal can continue to run/struggle.

4) SHOCK — This occurs NO matter if you get a major hit or not, the animal CHANGES it behavior. If it’s a human shooter, he ducks/covers INSTINCTIVELY even if he has no fear — he will come out after his instincts take over.

ANY GUN is better. They GUN you left at home that’s a .45 is worse than a .22 revolver. BTW, a LOT of people have been killed with a .22 it’s a nasty round, especially in hollow point.

Gunblast has a great video of a professional shooter (the bearded guy) who can put 10 .22 holes in the size of a end of a cup at 10 yards in 3 seconds. About twice as fast/accurate as when he shoots 9mm or .45


20 posted on 09/07/2012 9:17:11 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: ExSoldier

bookmark


21 posted on 09/07/2012 9:17:24 PM PDT by TheConservativeParty (Hey Obummer...Get Off Our Lawn.)
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To: mnehring
“I often carry a Walther PPK which is even smaller of a caliber”

The number one, irrefutable rule of the gunfight:

The most effective gun is.....

the gun you have

- the hand cannon at home in the closet is of NO use.

22 posted on 09/07/2012 9:18:36 PM PDT by I cannot think of a name
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To: hope
Last I heard there wasn't body armor, there was a tac vest... but say there was a flak jacket involved. How would you stand up to a grown man smacking you in the chest with a baseball bat that didn't penetrate your chest?

I'm going to fall down and gasp for breath.

Body armor saves your life (sometimes) by not letting holes get punched in you. It doesn't keep you from getting hurt.

I almost died from a 5 ft fall onto a sharp rock. Internal injuries suck.

/johnny

23 posted on 09/07/2012 9:21:13 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ottbmare

bfl


24 posted on 09/07/2012 9:21:24 PM PDT by ottbmare (The OTTB Mare)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Up to about 30 yards, if I have the option, I’m sticking with my 12 gauge. Hard to miss the target & you can’t beat the intimidation factor.


25 posted on 09/07/2012 9:23:37 PM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: BereanBrain
Whatever...

My friend who is an retired cop was making the point that had he been in the theatre with his .45 and had gotten a shot off on the Aurora shooter, that would have knocked him off his game so he may have been stopped. A 9mm would not have been effective against the body armor. Made enough since to me that I've decided to trade a couple 9's for the new Springfield XDS .45..To each is own

26 posted on 09/07/2012 9:28:41 PM PDT by hope
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To: hope
Does M1xV1=M2xV2 mean anything to you? Even cooks understand that kind of math.

Newtonian physics isn't hard. Even for cooks.

Getting smacked with a baseball bat in the chest would have been effective against body armor. You can't shoot when you are tango uniform, gasping for breath.

/johnny

27 posted on 09/07/2012 9:36:19 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: hope

Lots of cops are full of BS. A 45 ACP would not be effective against body armor. Nor would a 9mm.

You might want to research ballistics before trading your 9mm for a 45 ACP. FWIW, I prefer revolvers & a 357...but I’m not imagining that a 357 would stop body armor or be all that much more effective than a 9mm.


28 posted on 09/07/2012 9:36:42 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberalism: "Ex faslo quodlibet" - from falseness, anything follows)
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To: hope
Made enough since to me that I've decided to trade a couple 9's for the new Springfield XDS .45

I suppose 'since' is supposed to be sense, and your 'buddy' talking you into trading out your 9mm pistolas is going to benefit how? Is he buying them?

/johnny

29 posted on 09/07/2012 9:38:44 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Mr Rogers
A 45 ACP would not be effective against body armor. Nor would a 9mm.

Suprisingly, an ice-pick is, unless ceramic plates are involved. ;)

/johnny

30 posted on 09/07/2012 9:40:12 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I don’t do business with friends...I have a local gun shop that I can trade...Like I said to each is own. My husband has a 1911 and I a couple 9mm’s..I’ve decided the smaller .45 for conceal carry would be a perfect item to add to my collection. It’s funny what some people get all pissed off about around here...


31 posted on 09/07/2012 9:47:31 PM PDT by hope
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To: ChildOfThe60s
I have rules. They are adjustable to fit the situation, but I try to live by them.

If it's close and personal, and I'm in the car/truck? Less than 1 meter? Pistol. No room to swing a long arm.

In the house and I'm suprised? Depends on what is close. Might be a pistol, a thrown cat (sorry catz, nothing personal), fire extinguisher, or one of the many shotguns laying about (within 3 meters).

Everything else, where there is room and time, is a rifle.

Plink.

/johnny

32 posted on 09/07/2012 9:48:20 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: hope
Who is pissed off? I just brought up Newtonian physics.

You do what you think you need to do. Looking up real numbers on muzzle energy might change your mind. Or it might not, depending on your math skills.

I can carry a .45 and did, for years. I just can't carry one concealed.

Besides, when I actually had to use it, my hearing loss doubled. Never fire a .45 inside without ear plugs and muffs. You wind up writing notes back and forth to the cops like 4th graders. WhAT?

/johnny

33 posted on 09/07/2012 9:55:54 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ExSoldier

I don’t think he fully answered the question.

Cliff Notes version:

Obviously, if it makes a bigger hole, you have a better chance of causing some damage, but you also need to have some penetration. The .45 is bigger, but also slower, so may not expand as much as a higher velocity 9mm or .40 cal. But even if you have both penetration and expansion, it may not put the bad guy out of commission if you don’t hit something vital in the process. The damage that a rifle round can do compared to a handgun is significant, mosty because of the higher velocity and “hydrostatic shock” resulting in greater tissue damage.


34 posted on 09/07/2012 9:56:32 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: ExSoldier

Thanks for the posting the link to this video. It was very informative and the doctor had a good presentational style which incorporated some dry humor. What I take away from this presentation is this: Rifle > pistol and shot placement > bullet mass (especially for pistols). So, that is exactly why I switched to 9mm. Less recoil, more bullet capacity gives an edge to the trained shooter using 9mm. I like .45 and it will do the job, but I like my chances better with more bullets and less vs. .45. IMHO.


35 posted on 09/07/2012 9:59:48 PM PDT by 3Fingas (Sons and Daughters of Freedom, Committee of Correspondence)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Even shooting outdoors, ear protection is a must for me.


36 posted on 09/07/2012 10:05:08 PM PDT by hope
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To: smokingfrog
Bigger is better

The NEW .825 G&S Online Express Magnum

.44 mag, .825 Std, .825 Platnimum, .357 mag

37 posted on 09/07/2012 10:05:38 PM PDT by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: hope
In a rational world, suppressors would be available in the US as they are in Europe.

Queen of England gets a pistol with a suppressor, but our benevolent gooberment outlaws them because of some movies.

Meh..

Protect your hearing, unless you are married to a female. Deafness has an upside.

/johnny

38 posted on 09/07/2012 10:11:15 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
People shooting ANYTHING at you tends to loosen the bowels and make you think about doing less stupid stuff.

LOL! There ya go! I agree totally.

39 posted on 09/07/2012 10:11:48 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (On 5 September 2012 A.D., the communist Democrats tried to kill God and failed.)
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To: umgud
Left to right, not that it matters... Kill, overkill, overkill, kill.

Who can afford a double rifle these days?

Don't tell me those are pistol rounds there in the middle. The mere thought makes my wrist and back hurt.

/johnny

40 posted on 09/07/2012 10:13:29 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: FlingWingFlyer
There is a reason that you have to pack 3 pairs of BDU or DCU trousers and 5 pairs of granny panties in your A bag.

/johnny

41 posted on 09/07/2012 10:16:42 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: umgud

The carry handgun of choice for those who like to plink soda cans with a .50 BMG.


42 posted on 09/07/2012 10:17:03 PM PDT by coloradan (The US has become a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Try again. A baseball bat exerts somewhere between 6000 to 8000 ft/lbs of force on a target. A 45 is about 400 ft/lbs, a 9mm is about 350 ft/lbs.

A 45 impact is about 1/20th the power of a baseball bat. It does NOT knock anyone down with it’s power. Physics also tells you that if if did, the shooter would also be knocked down by the recoil.

Theres too much ego in caliber that leads you to silly conclusions. “Everyone” knows the 30 carbine is a weakling. Its a only 110gr at about 1950 fps. Yet, the most deadly pistol round known to man is the 357 mag. It shoots a 125gr at 1450.

Guess that extra 15 grains of lead and 4 hundreths additional diameter are sure lethal, huh?


43 posted on 09/07/2012 10:22:31 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Try again. A baseball bat exerts somewhere between 6000 to 8000 ft/lbs of force on a target. A 45 is about 400 ft/lbs, a 9mm is about 350 ft/lbs.

A 45 impact is about 1/20th the power of a baseball bat. It does NOT knock anyone down with it’s power. Physics also tells you that if if did, the shooter would also be knocked down by the recoil.

Theres too much ego in caliber that leads you to silly conclusions. “Everyone” knows the 30 carbine is a weakling. Its a only 110gr at about 1950 fps. Yet, the most deadly pistol round known to man is the 357 mag. It shoots a 125gr at 1450.

Guess that extra 15 grains of lead and 4 hundreths additional diameter are sure lethal, huh?


44 posted on 09/07/2012 10:22:44 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: ExSoldier

I’ve never seen anyone argue the destructive capability of the two rounds. I use 9mm for the simple reason of putting more rounds at the target in a convenient size gun to carry.


45 posted on 09/07/2012 10:22:44 PM PDT by Figment
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To: ExSoldier

For self-defense: .22 beats .45
http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/for-self-defense-22-beats-45/


46 posted on 09/07/2012 10:22:59 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.)
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To: JRandomFreeper
Heh, I'm the female in the equation...I do believe my state has or is about to allow suppressors on hunting rifles..that should be fun.
47 posted on 09/07/2012 10:24:18 PM PDT by hope
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To: coloradan
I had an AR-50 until I sold it to pay for culinary school. I did plink ($2US per plink for .50BMG, unless you wanted the $5US match rounds) and did shoot a soda can (once).

However. I'm not insane. Those are double rifle rounds or pistol rounds. One, I can't afford anymore, the other? That's just crazy. Even for a cook with a wild streak and who once had money to spare.

Stupid crazy. I'm glad someone is doing it though. ;)

/johnny

48 posted on 09/07/2012 10:25:20 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: ExSoldier

Gun injury data Ping!


49 posted on 09/07/2012 10:29:31 PM PDT by Bshaw (A nefarious deceit is upon us all!)
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To: ExSoldier

>Thought you folks would enjoy some sobering facts on a friday night.>

Its Friday night. Who wants to be sober?


50 posted on 09/07/2012 10:33:49 PM PDT by running_dog_lackey
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