X marks the spot: Walter Elliot on his use of ancient art of divination

The Southern Reporter (Scotland, UK) ^ | 9-16-2012

[DiogenesLamp]

No, been too busy with astrology and in my Alchemy lab. I’ll get to the other medieval magic soon as i can though. Oops, gotta run, my favorite medium is telling me that my dead uncle wants to chat.

I have seen it done. We were consulting with an Engineer for the local utility company about how to route power into a location, and I mentioned we had to find some underground conduits. This guy whips out these two telescoping rods that had handles, and proceeds to walk around over the site. I start laughing cause I thought he was nuts.

He points out a spot and says the line crosses the road right here, and there is some sort of junction box underground at this point. I tell him that is highly unlikely because it is too far away from where it should be. I think he is full of sh*t, but we hook up our electronic cable tracer to some exposed wires and inject a signal into them.

As we walk along with the hand held tracer, we encounter a tone at exactly the spot he had marked in the dirt with his foot. When we dug it all up, it was just as he had said.

I asked him how it works, and he gave me some nonsense about magnetic fields and such. (I do Electronic Engineering) I concluded he didn't know how it works and was just making stuff up to cover up for the fact that he didn't know what he was talking about.

I don't know what to think about it. It looks like total crap to me, but he did accurately place that underground conduit and junction box. I am willing to entertain the notion that there may be some as yet unexplained reason why this stuff might work. I would like to see some experiments conducted.

What I saw was such an unlikely occurrence that I am willing to give the idea the benefit of the doubt.

[Brookhaven]

There are plenty more scriptures warning about divination.

“My God-fearing Christian grandmother...” may not have thought through the implications of what she was doing to their logical end.

There is no scientific evidence backing any physical mechanics for dowsing—none, zero, zilch. That leaves one—and only one option—it is accomplished via some supernatural force.

Divination (as it is used in the Biblical passage I quoted)
means to obtain knowledge from a spirit. Dowsing fits that definition perfectly, since the knowledge is not obtained from a physical source, but rather a spiritual source.

Again, since the knowledge is NOT coming from a physical source, where do you think the knowledge is coming from; who do you think is controlling the dowsing rods; what supernatural force causes the dowsing rods to bend?

[ZX12R]

“Witch Sticks”, they called them. Say what you want, I’ve experienced it.

Soooo...you played with them, huh?



BURN THE WITCH!!!

[Brookhaven]

Are you the final arbiter of the meanings of Scripture? If so, I'm definitely glad to know where to find you.

Do you plan to quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" as well?

God, obviously, has the final say when it comes to the meaning of scripture. But, I doubt he intended us to ignore it altogether, since he gave it to us for a reason.

[ZX12R]

Again, since the knowledge is NOT coming from a physical source, where do you think the knowledge is coming from; who do you think is controlling the dowsing rods; what supernatural force causes the dowsing rods to bend?

There you have it diviners and divining advocates. Either you are all simply kidding yourself and lying, or you make up Satan's little army right here on this thread.

[Brookhaven]

FYI, the method was taught to me by a professional underground locator. He had modern equipment for locating undergound power/tel lines. I told him I wanted to locate water lines. He did not have equipment for that, so he showed me the witching method.

Think about what you just said.

There has got to be a huge (as in HUGE) market for equipment that locates water underground. Anyone that put a device on the market that could do that would make a fortune.

Yet, you just said no such commercial device exists.

What that tells me is that the dowsing "technology" doesn't work. Because if it did, someone would have put it in a box and started selling it commercially for big-bucks.

[Brookhaven]

Fascinating!

The agenda sounds more like a spiritual new-age conference than a scientific one.

[matt1234]

Yet, you just said no such commercial device exists.

No, I said "He did not have equipment for that." Some locators, such as this fellow, handle only certain kinds of underground lines, not all kinds. Hence, he did carry equipment for all kinds of lines.

There is modern technology for water location. Yes, it's superior to dowsing, but dowsing does work, too.

[houeto]

Again, since the knowledge is NOT coming from a physical source, where do you think the knowledge is coming from; who do you think is controlling the dowsing rods; what supernatural force causes the dowsing rods to bend?

I don't believe that there is anything supernatural about it. It is likely to have something to do with a person's body electrical current. For example, I have never been able to wear a pocket watch. I have had many but in just a few days they stop. Also, on certain days I cannot approach any small radio like a boombox or such. At about 5' they will begin to lose their signal. At 2' it's lights out, nothing but static.

One more thing, and it really ticks me off, no wristwatch that I have ever owned will keep the correct date. I cannot begin to count how many 'date' watches that I have owned from Timex to Seiko. None will work, none!

[houeto]

“My God-fearing Christian grandmother...” may not have thought through the implications of what she was doing to their logical end.

Thinking through what? These dirt poor folks were just trying to find fresh water. She had been taught and could do it.

[houeto]

Either you are all simply kidding yourself and lying, or you make up Satan's little army right here on this thread.

See my post #69.

[tractorman]

Have you ever tried either one?
I doubt it.
It is a foolish person that condemns that which he doesn't understand.

[Ronin]

Off topic, or maybe not, acupuncture works.

I’ve had it done for lower back pain that drugs didn’t even touch. It is a respected field of medicine in East Asia. Yet to this day, I am unaware of any science-based explanation as to why or how it works.

Yoga works, too. I have seen yogi do some amazing things. Things that I would never be able to do in my lifetime, certainly.

[eartrumpet]

To accomplish this, they prayed together once a week that if the witching was the result of the action of unclean spirits that it would fail to work. Lo and behold, almost immediately the well drillers started having trouble finding water.

So what you are saying is that God heard their prayers and showed the drillers that the witching was from a bad spirit? Some here say it is from the Scriptures, others say it is from Satan, others say it doesn't work anyway. I live 26' above a great water table so it doesn't concern me.

[ZX12R]

Have you ever tried either one?

No, but I never tried to capture a ghost or a bigfoot either, because I know before hand that there is no point in trying. I'm not the kind of person to convince myself of things that have no basis in reality.

I do believe however, that Obama and most libtards are possessed by some sort of evil inclination.

It is a foolish person that condemns that which he doesn't understand.

There's the difference. You think there is something there to understand, and I know there isn't. Condemning things that aren't real, would make one ripe for a mental health facility's picking.

[jboot]

Here's a fuller version of the story. One of the congregation witnessed dowsers in action and was troubled because it didn't seem natural. The pastor believed that when something appears to be spiritual, that it is a good idea to know if you are dealing with God or the devil. So they prayed for the dowsing spirits to be bound and silenced if they were servants of the devil. Unsurprisingly the dowsers immmediately lost their gift. When they found out why they retaliated against the church.

I have seen dowsing in action and it does appear to work. Can I gurantee that the operators weren't charletans? No, I can't. But I can say that in order for the map dowser in particular to fake his findings he whould have needed to be very familiar with the site he was dowsing, more familiar than a survey crew that had spent weeks on that site.

I'm also not saying that the dowsing "gift" is always from Satan. But such gifts need to be considered with caution.

[ZX12R]

I'm also not saying that the dowsing "gift" is always from Satan.

"The devil went down to georgia,
he was looking for a soul to steal,
he was in a bind he was way behind,
he was willin' to make a deal."

[Brookhaven]

There you have it diviners and divining advocates. Either you are all simply kidding yourself and lying, or you make up Satan's little army right here on this thread.

If Dowsing works, then...yea, that's the choice.

For the sake of argument, I'll grant your point: dowsing works. Now show me the scientific evidence for WHY it works. The balls in your court.

I'm not asking for testimonials that it works. That doesn't explain why it works. And besides, I've already granted you that point--it works.

And please don't insult your or my intelligence by talking about mysterious forces science hasn't figured out how to measure. Scientists have determined how to measure such things as the size of a single atom, or detect elements that exist for only the smallest fraction of a second. If there was some electromagnetic field associated with dowsing, it certainly would have been detected by now.

I could produce pages of links to studies showing there is no scientific evidence for dowsing. But, I'm giving you your chance to prove me wrong. Produce a study detailing the science behind dowsing. Link me to a book on Amazon called "The Scientific Behind Downsing." Produce some scientific evidence for why dowsing work...something...anything!

That's all I'm asking. Explain the scientific why.

And, if you can't produce the scientific why (the physics behind why it works), then explain why it works without physics; without science; without a natural reason.

Because, if it works without any natural, physical, scientific mechanism, then the mechanism must not be scientific, physical, or natural. There is a word for things that work that way: supernatural.

[Brookhaven]

I have seen dowsing in action and it does appear to work

So does fortune telling and communication with the dead...until they attempt to perform under controlled, scientific conditions. Then (for some strange reason) the skill disappears.

And, dowsing is no different.

Below is a link to the Simthsonian Institution that contains of video of dowsers attempting to reproduce their skill under controlled conditions. And, they totally fail. Like fortune tellers and people that "talk to the dead," when push comes to shove, when facing an actual controlled test, their skill disappears.

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2009/02/debunking-dowsing/

[ZX12R]

For the sake of argument, I'll grant your point: dowsing works.

I wasn't being sarcastic. A bit humorous perhaps, but not sarcastic. I know it doesn't work. It is superstitious nonsense that glaringly reveals the gullibility of some people.