MORE JAPANESE LAND ON GUADALCANAL; STALINGRAD HOLDS OFF NEW NAZI DRIVE (10/6/42)

Happy Rain: "Adolf Eichmann’s fanatically applied power to divert resources from the battlefields to the extermination of the Jews perhaps saved more lives than were lost in the death factories..."

That is an odd formulation, suggesting... what?
That had Nazis not devoted resources to exterminating Jews, they might have delayed Allied victory by a few days, weeks or even months?
And this brief extension of war might have taken the lives of a number greater than the six million Jews murdered?

I'd say it's a huge stretch, and not worth adding to the Holocaust's moral equations.

Happy Rain: "at least that, as some have said, is why FDR ignored their plight when he had documentation of the in progress Holocaust on his desk..."

FDR did not "ignore their plight", he did whatever he could.
But the first thing to remember is that deaths of six million Jews were mere drops in a sea of blood now estimated around 75 million total deaths worldwide.
So, where Jews were murdered at the rate of perhaps 125,000 per month, non-Jews were dying at a rate of circa 1,500,000 per month.
Therefore, President Roosevelt's first priority was to end the war with victory as quickly as possible.
From that goal he was willing to spare no resources.

In the end, the question for FDR is similar to that for Pope Pius XII -- was there really anything more they coulda, shoulda, woulda done to save some lives without costing even more of others' lives?

Adolf Eichmann’s fanatically applied power to divert resources from the battlefields to the extermination of the Jews perhaps saved more lives than were lost in the death factories... ...at least that, as some have said, is why FDR ignored their plight when he had documentation of the in progress Holocaust on his desk...

Despite the continual whitewashing of history by the Left. Responding to the plight of the Jews would have been inconsistent with who FDR was.

FDR knew of the horrors carried out by the communists in the Soviet Union yet in his first year as president formally recognized the USSR. Throughout the 1930's FDR knew the horrors were continuing unabated in the USSR yet thought Stalin to be a swell guy. FDR watched the Japanese commit one barbaric atrocity after another in China and across Asia yet did nothing.

Through the 1930's FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis, Japanese and Communists. Why should anyone believe he would have lifted a finger to help the Jews?

...but I expect, like Obama, he was just another soulless socialist antisemite thinking only of himself.

Yep.

fso301: "Through the 1930's FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis, Japanese and Communists. Why should anyone believe he would have lifted a finger to help the Jews?"

In all fairness to FDR, he certainly did do more than "lift a finger" to help the Jews, both before and after the outbreak of war in Europe.

First of all, throughout this period, total immigration to the US was severely restricted by US law, which FDR could not change.
However, what he did do was make sure that of those legally admitted, the vast majority were Jewish.

Second, before war started, FDR helped negotiate emigration of Jews from Germany to other countries in Europe & elsewhere.
By war's beginning, over 60% of Germany's half-million Jews had emigrated, unfortunately, most not far enough away.

Third, the "Holocaust proper" -- with all its horrors of mass exportations, gassing chambers and crematoriums -- did not really begin until after Hitler declared war on the United States.
By that time information on specific events in Eastern Europe was sealed up tight, and did not leak out until nearer war's end.

By mid-1943 the US was already punishing Germany with massive bombings, and was well along with planning the D-Day invasion.
Further, by then deaths world-wide were averaging circa 1.5 million per month, of which perhaps 125,000 were Jews.
So the question remains: what more coulda, shoulda, woulda FDR have done to save more Jews without increasing the deaths of others?

Finally, you misread FDR entirely if you fail to understand his close relationship to the American Jewish community, his dependency on them for political support, and his desires to do whatever he could to help them.
Indeed, at the time they were entirely supportive of FDR's goals and priorities.

In this regard I should mention that the atom bomb dropped on Japan was originally intended for Germany, and FDR's "Morganthau Plan" was to reduce Germans to farmers & agricultural workers who could harm nobody.

In short, FDR hated the Germans, wanted them punished as severely as possible, and in that was hugely appreciated by the American Jewish community.

In all fairness to FDR, he certainly did do more than "lift a finger" to help the Jews, both before and after the outbreak of war in Europe.

It's been some time since I went down this path of study but my impression has always been that there are disconnects between what many believe FDR said, what he actually said, what he did and probably most importantly what he had the power to do.

First of all, throughout this period, total immigration to the US was severely restricted by US law, which FDR could not change. However, what he did do was make sure that of those legally admitted, the vast majority were Jewish.

This may be where one of those FDR disconnects exists. I just did a very superficial review of U.S. immigration in the 1930's. Perhaps the following quote from the U.S. Holocaust Museum summarizes my general understanding:

his increased involvement in the refugee issue helped to fill the combined German and Austrian quotas for the first and only time: 27,300 Germans and Austrians, mostly Jewish refugees, entered the United States in 1939.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007411

Second, before war started, FDR helped negotiate emigration of Jews from Germany to other countries in Europe & elsewhere. By war's beginning, over 60% of Germany's half-million Jews had emigrated, unfortunately, most not far enough away.

One could say FDR had an "anywhere but here" attitude toward assisting Jewish resettlement. From the U.S. Holocaust Museum:

On July 6, 1938, he summoned a conference on refugees in Évian-les-Bains, France. The US president had hoped that the participating countries would pledge to take in some refugees, although his larger goal was to create an intergovernmental organization that would settle Reich Jews in large numbers in remote areas of Africa, South America, and elsewhere. Roosevelt expended some time and effort, and was willing to spend some money, on these mass resettlement schemes during 1938 and 1939.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007411

Third, the "Holocaust proper" -- with all its horrors of mass exportations, gassing chambers and crematoriums -- did not really begin until after Hitler declared war on the United States. By that time information on specific events in Eastern Europe was sealed up tight, and did not leak out until nearer war's end.

We didn't know is not an excuse. Over the past year, followers of Homer's daily NYT thread have read numerous credible reports of mass slaughter taking place, especially in East Europe.

By mid-1943 the US was already punishing Germany with massive bombings, and was well along with planning the D-Day invasion. Further, by then deaths world-wide were averaging circa 1.5 million per month, of which perhaps 125,000 were Jews. So the question remains: what more coulda, shoulda, woulda FDR have done to save more Jews without increasing the deaths of others?

Without using the example of British humanitarian assistance during the Greek famine and American food shipments to Vichy, I agree with you here. Once the war started, FDR in order to save the most lives had to focus on bringing the war to a rapid conclusion.

Finally, you misread FDR entirely if you fail to understand his close relationship to the American Jewish community, his dependency on them for political support, and his desires to do whatever he could to help them. Indeed, at the time they were entirely supportive of FDR's goals and priorities.

I understand how Jews view FDR but as is the case now, if the demographic is more closely examined, I bet FDR had strongest support from the secular socialist Jews he could most easily relate to.

In short, FDR hated the Germans, wanted them punished as severely as possible, and in that was hugely appreciated by the American Jewish community.

If I remember correctly, FDR reportedly didn't blink when Stalin told him every German officer, or every German officer above the rank of lieutenant should be executed.

fso301: "It's been some time since I went down this path of study but my impression has always been that there are disconnects between what many believe FDR said, what he actually said, what he did and probably most importantly what he had the power to do."

We have debated this subject on Homer's threads several times now.
My references are:
Saving the Jews, Franklin D. Roosevelt and the Holocaust by Robert N. Rosen

And Churchill and the Jews, a Lifelong Friendship by Martin Gilbert

The bottom line for both books is that while we may think they didn't do everything they shoulda, at the time it was believed they did everything they coulda.

fso301: "Perhaps the following quote from the U.S. Holocaust Museum summarizes my general understanding:

"his increased involvement in the refugee issue helped to fill the combined German and Austrian quotas for the first and only time: 27,300 Germans and Austrians, mostly Jewish refugees, entered the United States in 1939."

Here is Rosen's response (page 441):

"World War II began in September 1939.
By then Hitler had power over the Jews of Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia, but not the Jews of Poland and Russia, who later became his chief victims.
"The Jewish population of Germany in 1933 was about 500,000 (525,000 if the Saar is included after 1935).
Rubinstein estimated that at most, 24,700 Jewish children and youth remained within the pre-1933 boundaries of Germany in September 1939.
"Most Austrian Jews also survived.
Of the 185,000 Jews in Austria at the time of the Anschluss (March 12, 1938), 126,000 emigrated by the end of 1939.
Sixty-eight percent of Austrian Jewry fled within 21 months.
"The start of the war sealed the fate of those Germans, Austrians, and Czechs who stayed behind.
Rarely in history have so many escaped certain persecution so quickly.
"From 1938 to 1940, the United States responded positively to the crisis.
In that period of restrictive immigration laws and wide-spread antisemitism, Jews comprised half of all immigrants admitted to the United States.
The democracies had a small window of opportunity to take in the bulk of the Reich's Jews and they succeeded, even given the difficult circumstances.
"While it is true that the United States had a strict quota system established in the 1920s, the quota for Germany (25,957 per year) was highest for any country other than Britain (65,721).
It was much higher than Italy (5,802), Ireland (17,853), or Spain (252), and ironically, German and Austrian Jews benefited from the German quota.
"It is well to remember that, of the nearly six million Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust, 4,563,000 were Polish and Russian and 125,000 were German.
"The United States accepted twice as many refugees as the rest of the world combined, 200,000 of 300,000.

"FDR tried to do even more.
He held his nose and vigorously pursued a ransom scheme, the Rublee Plan, with the Nazis in 1938 and 1939 through the IGCR, which failed only because the Nazis would not agree to let the Jews go.
His willingness to support this scheme came from the fact that he was far ahead of the rest of the world, including the American Jewish leadership, in seeing what might lay ahead if the Jews of Germany were not ransomed."

fso301: "One could say FDR had an "anywhere but here" attitude toward assisting Jewish resettlement."

By US law in effect since the 1920s there were only so many immigrants the US could accept, period.
FDR did what he could to find homes for the others.

fso301: "We didn't know is not an excuse.
Over the past year, followers of Homer's daily NYT thread have read numerous credible reports of mass slaughter taking place, especially in East Europe."

And during 1942 or 1943, President Roosevelt coulda done what, exactly, about it?

fso301: "Without using the example of British humanitarian assistance during the Greek famine and American food shipments to Vichy,"

The death toll in Greece from famine was around 300,000 before food relief shipments began arriving in 1942.
These were possible because of agreements between Allies and Nazis.
No such agreements were possible regarding Jews in Poland and Russia.

fso301: "I bet FDR had strongest support from the secular socialist Jews he could most easily relate to."

Secular or not, American Jews supported FDR's efforts to save Jews in Europe.

We have debated this subject on Homer's threads several times now.

And I'm confident we will continue to do so.

My references are: Saving the Jews, Franklin D. Roosevelt and the Holocaust by Robert N. Rosen

And Churchill and the Jews, a Lifelong Friendship by Martin Gilbert

Thanks! I always appreciate book recommendations. I'm not going to be able to read them in time for our present discussion but I will make it a point to check them out.

The bottom line for both books is that while we may think they didn't do everything they shoulda, at the time it was believed they did everything they coulda.

Was that based on a decision to do the right thing, or doing what was best for FDR? The difference can be significant.

-snip-

Here is Rosen's response (page 441):

"World War II began in September 1939. By then Hitler had power over the Jews of Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia, but not the Jews of Poland and Russia, who later became his chief victims.
"The Jewish population of Germany in 1933 was about 500,000 (525,000 if the Saar is included after 1935). Rubinstein estimated that at most, 24,700 Jewish children and youth remained within the pre-1933 boundaries of Germany in September 1939

My understanding is that there were significantly more than the Rubenstein figure of Jews in Germany as of 9/39. Perhaps this is a technical difference between Jews living within the pre-1933 boundaries versus 1939 boundaries.

"From 1938 to 1940, the United States responded positively to the crisis. In that period of restrictive immigration laws and wide-spread antisemitism, Jews comprised half of all immigrants admitted to the United States.

Do the authors provide numbers to support their claims? I already provided numbers showing that the quota of immigrants admitted to the United States from Germany was only met in 1939.
The democracies had a small window of opportunity to take in the bulk of the Reich's Jews and they succeeded, even given the difficult circumstances.
I think this is where our perspectives differ sharply. I see the democracies as having had ample time to prevent the need for any emmigration but they didn't. While Britain and France were appeasing Hitler, FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis right on through the 1930's. Had FDR cut off trade with Germany and Japan around 1937, what would the stateside economic impact have been to the socialist utopia FDR was trying to create?

By early 1939 when the democracies began to realize they had a crisis largely of their own making, whatever they began doing was too little, too late.

"While it is true that the United States had a strict quota system established in the 1920s, the quota for Germany (25,957 per year) was highest for any country other than Britain (65,721).
It was much higher than Italy (5,802), Ireland (17,853), or Spain (252), and ironically, German and Austrian Jews benefited from the German quota.

Ok but did the authors provide an annual breakdown of immigration figures throughout the 1930's so that we can see what kind of demand there was for U.S. visas throughout the 1930's?

"FDR tried to do even more. He held his nose and vigorously pursued a ransom scheme, the Rublee Plan, with the Nazis in 1938 and 1939 through the IGCR, which failed only because the Nazis would not agree to let the Jews go. His willingness to support this scheme came from the fact that he was far ahead of the rest of the world, including the American Jewish leadership, in seeing what might lay ahead if the Jews of Germany were not ransomed."

I will have to read the books you cite in order to better understand the author's claim of FDR's far-sightedness. I don't see the evidence based on the snippet you provided.

By US law in effect since the 1920s there were only so many immigrants the US could accept, period. FDR did what he could to find homes for the others.

Yep. FDR sure had his hands tied by U.S. laws, didn't he. Powerless to do anything. /sarc.

And during 1942 or 1943, President Roosevelt coulda done what, exactly, about it?

As I mentioned earlier in this post, by '42-'43, it was too late. Let's see what Homer posts over the next two years but so far, I don't recall reading any articles where FDR even publicly addresses the plight of the Jews.

Perhaps an offer could have been made to pay German transport of Jews to say Trieste where they would then be taken aboard specially designated ships via Suez to Madagascar. I don't see such theoretical public offer being anything other than one the allies would hope the Germans declined.

The death toll in Greece from famine was around 300,000 before food relief shipments began arriving in 1942. These were possible because of agreements between Allies and Nazis. No such agreements were possible regarding Jews in Poland and Russia.

Did FDR even try to reach any agreement concerning Jews in Eastern Europe???

fso301: "I always appreciate book recommendations."

Neither book is available in Kindle, but both can be purchased quite reasonably.

fso301: "Was that based on a decision to do the right thing, or doing what was best for FDR?
The difference can be significant."

I doubt if, in FDR's own mind, there was any difference.
Remember, while Jews voted 90% for FDR in 1940, they have also sometimes voted in large numbers for Republicans, including 43% for Harding in 1920, 40% for Eisenhower in 1956, 35% for Nixon in 1972 and 39% for Reagan in 1980.
My point is, Roosevelt did not take Jewish votes for granted.
So he appointed Jews to high government posts and tried to protect those endangered in Europe.

fso301: "My understanding is that there were significantly more than the Rubenstein figure of Jews in Germany as of 9/39.
Perhaps this is a technical difference between Jews living within the pre-1933 boundaries versus 1939 boundaries."

I think the key words in that quote are: "Jewish children and youths".
In other words, older parents stayed behind, sacrificing themselves to make sure younger people could survive.

The total number left in Germany by September 1939 was over 100,000 iirc.

fso301: "Do the authors provide numbers to support their claims?"

Yes, but I'll have to get back to you later with those.
And yes, there was an issue between what Roosevelt intended and what the State Department did -- to the point where Secretary of State Cordell Hull reportedly lied & exaggerated to FDR about how many Jews were being admitted.
So the President believed he was doing more good than, in fact, happened.

Bottom line, according to Rosen: of 300,000 Jews who emigrated from Germany, 200,000 came to the US.

fso301: "While Britain and France were appeasing Hitler, FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis right on through the 1930's.
Had FDR cut off trade with Germany and Japan around 1937, what would the stateside economic impact have been to the socialist utopia FDR was trying to create? "

That sounds like perfect 20-20 hindsight to me.
Remember, throughout this period (and even today to a lesser degree) most Americans were in the grip of German World War One propaganda which claimed that war was nobody's, or everybody's, fault especially those nasty Brits, and therefore the US should have then, and certainly should now (late 1930s) remain "neutral".
No reason for the US to again "pull Britain's chestnuts out of the fire."

Yes, President Roosevelt saw sooner and clearer than most the threats represented by Hitler's Nazis, but Americans by large majorities were dead set against joining, much less provoking, another war.

Today, of course, we are much wiser than those old-timers, right?
Today we know just how to deal with lunatics bent on mass destruction, such as those in, oh, say, Iran, don't we? ;-)

fso301: "Ok but did the authors provide an annual breakdown of immigration figures throughout the 1930's so that we can see what kind of demand there was for U.S. visas throughout the 1930's?"

I don't remember seeing numbers broken down in such detail.
The question of visa requests versus actual immigration is what was at issue between FDR and Secretary Hull.
Hull is reported to have "confused" one set of numbers for the other.

But the key point to remember is that while there were long-standing strict limits on legal immigration, a disproportionate number (half) of these went to Germany's Jews.

fso301: "I will have to read the books you cite in order to better understand the author's claim of FDR's far-sightedness.
I don't see the evidence based on the snippet you provided."

Rosen goes into some depth on the Rublee Plan.
It was an abject lesson to FDR on Nazi vileness.

fso301: "Yep. FDR sure had his hands tied by U.S. laws, didn't he.
Powerless to do anything. /sarc."

Your sarcasm might have some credibility, if you could find quotes from American Jews of that time who were critical of FDRs "inactivity".
We would then want to contrast those quotes with others supporting FDR.
My guess is that supporters would outnumber detractors roughly nine to one.

fso301: "I don't recall reading any articles where FDR even publicly addresses the plight of the Jews."

In fact, there were joint Allied statements issued more than once.
The issue "now" -- autumn of 1942 -- was whether the Pope could be persuaded to join or issue his own condemnation of Nazi atrocities.
The Pope refused, and that is some of the background to "Hitler's Pope" charges.
In truth, I'm certain, the Pope calculated that he could save more lives by remaining silent and working in secret, but those are the sorts of decisions faced by many in that time.

fso301: "Perhaps an offer could have been made to pay German transport of Jews to say Trieste where they would then be taken aboard specially designated ships via Suez to Madagascar."

Indeed, late in the war there were efforts made to negotiate ransom for safe passage of some Jews to safety.
But since they all required paying Nazis so they could prolong the war, almost nothing came of those efforts.

fso301: "Did FDR even try to reach any agreement concerning Jews in Eastern Europe???"

For such efforts as were made, the books offer many details.
Certainly nothing was attempted on the scale of saving any significant portion of the 6 million Jews and tens of millions of other innocents killed during the war.

I wrote:

While Britain and France were appeasing Hitler, FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis right on through the 1930's. Had FDR cut off trade with Germany and Japan around 1937, what would the stateside economic impact have been to the socialist utopia FDR was trying to create?

You replied:

That sounds like perfect 20-20 hindsight to me. Remember, throughout this period (and even today to a lesser degree) most Americans were in the grip of German World War One propaganda which claimed that war was nobody's, or everybody's, fault especially those nasty Brits, and therefore the US should have then, and certainly should now (late 1930s) remain "neutral". No reason for the US to again "pull Britain's chestnuts out of the fire."

I agree that a certain amount of hindsight went into my comment. However, I wrote that aware of a persistent revisionism I come across by which British appeasement is blamed on a desire to not upset business relations Chamberlain's family had with the Germans. These revisionists never mention FDR's laissez faire attitude towards doing business with Germany and Japan through the same period.

Today, of course, we are much wiser than those old-timers, right? Today we know just how to deal with lunatics bent on mass destruction, such as those in, oh, say, Iran, don't we? ;-)

You are correct. Many parallels exist between the present and the 1930's. Through the cold war we though we learned a lesson and refused to do business with potential adversaries. With the end of the cold war came a new attitude that appears little different from that of the 1930's.

But the key point to remember is that while there were long-standing strict limits on legal immigration, a disproportionate number (half) of these went to Germany's Jews.

Superficially, that bolsters pro-FDR arguments. However, the nagging factoid as presented by the U.S. Holocaust Museum is that the German quota was only filled in 1939. If half the visas issued to Germans went to Jews as your sources state, yet the entire German quota was filled only once in the 1930's, it's hard to claim that FDR was giving preference to German Jews.

Without investigating deeper, the only year one could make a strong claim that German Gentiles may have been bumped in favor of German Jews was 1939.

Why didn't enough German Jews apply to fill the quotas in prior years? What was the ratio of German Jewish visa applicants versus approvals through the 1930's? How did that compare versus visa approval-denials by German Gentiles through the same period?

I wrote:

fso301: "Yep. FDR sure had his hands tied by U.S. laws, didn't he. Powerless to do anything. /sarc."

You replied:

Your sarcasm might have some credibility, if you could find quotes from American Jews of that time who were critical of FDRs "inactivity". We would then want to contrast those quotes with others supporting FDR. My guess is that supporters would outnumber detractors roughly nine to one.

FDR had been elected in a Reaganesque landslide. It's not as if he was barely hanging on. He had a large store of political capital that he could have drawn upon. Back when I last researched this topic, I did come across Jewish critiques from that era of FDR's decision making but as is the case at present with large political blocs, dissenting voices are drowned out.

I wrote:

fso301: "I don't recall reading any articles where FDR even publicly addresses the plight of the Jews."

You replied:

In fact, there were joint Allied statements issued more than once. The issue "now" -- autumn of 1942 -- was whether the Pope could be persuaded to join or issue his own condemnation of Nazi atrocities. The Pope refused, and that is some of the background to "Hitler's Pope" charges. In truth, I'm certain, the Pope calculated that he could save more lives by remaining silent and working in secret, but those are the sorts of decisions faced by many in that time.

It's not clear to me from what you wrote that FDR in his appeal to the Pope specifically mentioned Jews? Additionally, did FDR's appeal to the Pope appear in the NYT?

Furthermore, the Pope's first priority was probably that of Catholic clergy, the slaughter of which we periodically read reports of particularly in the East.

I wrote:

Did FDR even try to reach any agreement concerning Jews in Eastern Europe???"

You replied:

For such efforts as were made, the books offer many details. Certainly nothing was attempted on the scale of saving any significant portion of the 6 million Jews and tens of millions of other innocents killed during the war.

The reason I asked the question about public offers to resettle Jews is because I've read many post-war interviews of German citizens who indicate having early in the war connected the changing fortunes, particularly the bombings of their cities with German treatment of the Jews.

Many of these same citizens would have secretly been aware of allied broadcasts. This could have been used by the allies as a wedge issue.

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