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MORE JAPANESE LAND ON GUADALCANAL; STALINGRAD HOLDS OFF NEW NAZI DRIVE (10/6/42)
Microfilm-New York Times archives, Monterey Public Library | 10/6/42 | Charles Hurd

Posted on 10/06/2012 6:01:14 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: milhist; realtime; worldwarii
Free Republic University, Department of History presents World War II Plus 70 Years: Seminar and Discussion Forum
First session: September 1, 2009. Last date to add: September 2, 2015.
Reading assignment: New York Times articles delivered daily to students on the 70th anniversary of original publication date. (Previously posted articles can be found by searching on keyword “realtime” Or view Homer’s posting history .)
To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by freepmail. Those on the Realtime +/- 70 Years ping list are automatically enrolled. Course description, prerequisites and tuition information is available at the bottom of Homer’s profile. Also visit our general discussion thread.
1 posted on 10/06/2012 6:01:19 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Selections from West Point Atlas for the Second World War
Papua, New Guinea, 1942
Allied Advance Across Owen Stanley Mountains, 26 Sept.-15 Nov. 1942
The Solomons: Guadalcanal and Florida, 1942
Southwest Russia, 1942: German Advance to Stalingrad, Operations, 24 July-18 November 1942
The Far East and the Pacific, 1941: Status of Forces and Allied Theater Boundaries, 2 July 1942
India-Burma, 1942: Allied Lines of Communication, 1942-1943
2 posted on 10/06/2012 6:02:09 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; 2banana; henkster; meandog; ...
U.S. Blows Dealt (Hurd) – 2-3
Allies Win Heights in New Guinea Push – 3
New Aleutian Base Used to Pound Foe – 4
War News Summarized – 4
Russian Relief Force Gains; Shift in Command is Denied – 5
The Texts of the Day’s War Communiques – 6-7
3 posted on 10/06/2012 6:03:52 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1942/oct42/f06oct42.htm

More American aid for Soviet Union
Tuesday, October 6, 1942 www.onwar.com

From Washington... An additional Lend-Lease agreement is signed by the US and the USSR. It provides for 4,400,000 tons of supplies to reach the Soviet Union by July 1943. Seventy five per cent of the materiel is to be transported by sea, the remainder through the land route in Iran.

On the Eastern Front... In the Caucasus, German Army Group A captures the oil-producing city of Malgobek near Mozdok. German advances continue toward Terek.

In New Guinea... American troops begin implementation of General MacArthur’s offensive to cut off the retreat of the Japanese forces withdrawing in the face of Australian attacks. Elements of the US 32nd Division begin to move down the Kapa Kapa Trail. They are 25 miles southwest of the Kokado Trail which the Japanese are using as an escape route. The terrain is very difficult.


4 posted on 10/06/2012 6:06:12 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/frame.htm

October 6th, 1942

GERMANY: U-369 is laid down.

U-219 and U-848 are launched. (Dave Shirlaw)

NORWAY: Martial law is declared in Trondheim.

U.S.S.R.: Malgobek, in the Caucasus, falls to German Army Group A.

* The German III. Panzerkorps (von Mackensen) captures Malgobek in the bend of the Terek River in the Caucasus.

* Units of Heeresgruppe Mitte (von Bock) capture Brjansk on the road to Moscow. (Jack McKillop)

LIBYA: US Army, Middle East Air Force B-24s hit Bengasi harbor, scoring a large number of near misses but no direct hits; a B-24 bombs Bardia during the return flight. AA is heavy and accurate and fighters attack 6 B-24s over target; 2 B-24s are lost. (Jack McKillop)

NEW GUINEA: Units of the US 32nd Division begin to advance over the Kapa Kapa Trail, 25 miles SW of the Kokoda Track in New Guinea. This route over the Owen Stanley Mountains is through even worse terrain that the Kokoda Track.

Fifth Air Force aircraft complete the movement of the reinforced Australian 18 Brigade to Wanigela on the peninsula between Dyke Acland and Collingwood Bays on the east coast of Papua; this is part of the move aimed at capture of the Buna-Gona area. (Jack McKillop)

TERRITORY OF ALASKA: ALEUTIAN ISLANDS: The Eleventh Air Force dispatches 8 B-24 Liberators, a B-17 Flying Fortress, 10 P-39Airacobras, and 8 P-38 Lightnings to fly bombing and weather missions over Kiska Island; a large transport is bombed in the harbor which is left sinking; hits are scored on a corvette and on a large freighter at Gertrude Cove and on a hangar in Main Camp; the radio station is damaged; and a float fighter is strafed and set afire. (Jack McKillop)

CANADA: Minesweeper HMCS Oshawa laid down. (Dave Shirlaw)

U.S.A.: The U.S.S.R., and the US sign an additional Lend-Lease Agreement covering the next year. 75% of the supplies are to be delivered by sea and the balance through Iran.

* A second U.S. merchant ship is sunk off the coast of Oregon by the Japanese submarine HIJMS I-25 in 3 days. The ship is the armed tanker SS Larry Dohney.

* Chester Floyd Carlson obtains a patent on the xerography process for making electrostatic copies. Carlson worked in the patent department of an electronics firm and was frustrated at the difficulty of making copies of patent drawings. He investigated various processes and developed xerography after four years of experimenting. He made the first Xerox copy on 22 October 1938. Although he received a patent in 1942, he failed to interest companies in producing copy machines until 1947, when the Haloid Company of Rochester, New York, licensed the process. The company, which later changed its name to Xerox, introduced its first copy machine in 1958. (Jack McKillop)

ATLANTIC OCEAN: U-116 sent her last radio message on this day (a weather report); nothing more was ever heard from this boat.

U-333 fought an epic battle with the British corvette HMS Crocus on 6 Oct, 1942. The U-boat lost 3 men dead (including the IWO) and several men wounded, including the commander, Peter Erich Cremer. The boat was heavily damaged and limped back to base with help from a replacement WO from the Milk Cow U-459. Cremer then spent 3 months in a hospital.[Oberleutnant zur See Bernhard Hermann, Bootsmaat Heinz Kurze, Maschinenobergefreiter Erwin Levermann]
(Dave Shirlaw)


5 posted on 10/06/2012 6:08:31 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
MORE JAPANESE LAND ON GUADALCANAL
More targets for the Marines. (Want to read more? I highly recommend "You'll Be Sor-ree!" by Sid Phillips.)
Interesting to see that the World Series ended 6 October, while this year, it'll probably go into November.
Also on this day 1966, I left left for Parris Island. Semper Fi ...
6 posted on 10/06/2012 6:14:55 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Interesting article about Robert Moses’ plans for scrap metal.


7 posted on 10/06/2012 6:21:03 AM PDT by samtheman (Obama. Mugabe. Chavez. (Obamugavez))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
My late father was a Plank Sailor Gunners Mate on the USS Wasp (CV-7) on her way to Guadalcanal when she was torpedoed by a Jap sub.

Surviving the sinking was both good and bad news...he was alive but then he was put on an LST and had to endure two years of terrifying combat landing troops and material on hostile beaches.
While on liberty in the Philippines his ship was set on fire by a Kamikaze and had to be towed out to sea and sunk. After a psychological screening (common for amphib sailors the stress was so severe) he was put on a Tin Can in the Atlantic for the rest of the war...
...the war haunted him until his death in 2000.

8 posted on 10/06/2012 6:40:06 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Water is wet and Obama is a liar.")
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

October 6, 1942:


"A bilingual poster in Hebrew and English entreated members of the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine, to enlist in the British Armed Forces.
The Hebrew text reads: "Follow in my footsteps."
Throughout the Second World War, the British government attempted to enlist recruits from throughout its empire.
In Palestine, however, the British had to be careful not to anger the Arab community."


"Female members of the Yishuv, the Jewish community in Palestine, were encouraged to enlist in the women's Auxiliary Territorial Service unit of the British Armed Forces.
The scope of World War II placed an enormous burden on Britain and other belligerents.
The need for soldiers, munitions workers, nurses, doctors, and other personnel was seemingly limitless.
Tremendous effort was expended to attract and recruit individuals from throughout the empire."


"A sheet of 12-Pfennig Hitler stamps reminds us of the ubiquitous image of the German chancellor.
Hitler's presence was felt throughout German society.
The Nazi propaganda machine tirelessly reinforced the link between the Führer and the nation.
And that link was strong: The Third Reich that was Hitler's creation would not survive his demise."



9 posted on 10/06/2012 7:23:52 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
Which was worse, Treblinka carbon monoxide or Birkenau Zyklon B?

In the gas vans the drivers had the choice of putting the condemned slowly to sleep and then death or stomp on the accelerator so as to kill them faster but more painfully...a choice I would not relish having to make.

I have yet to find out how they did it in Treblinka.

10 posted on 10/06/2012 7:41:46 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Water is wet and Obama is a liar.")
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To: oh8eleven
Also on this day 1966, I left left for Parris Island. Semper Fi ...

Followed no doubt by a trip to southeast Asia a few months later. By the time I got to the Navy's Hospital Corps school in San Diego in Sept. 1970 I believe they had stopped deploying Marines to Vietnam. I may be wrong on that. Anyway, we learned that earlier entire classes, upon graduation, were loaded onto trucks and transported to Camp Pendleton. Goodbye USN, hello USMC.

Thanks for answering the call, oh8eleven.

11 posted on 10/06/2012 8:07:49 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Thanks for answering the call, oh8eleven.
You too Doc. How did it feel to be a "corpseman?"
I did 13 months on the DMZ ... never a dull moment.
12 posted on 10/06/2012 8:38:54 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: oh8eleven
How did it feel to be a "corpseman?"

Most of my moments were relatively dull. I spent my entire enlistment in Naval Hospitals. In California. I joined the Navy and saw the world from Oakland to San Diego.

13 posted on 10/06/2012 8:45:30 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Happy Rain
In the gas vans the drivers had the choice of putting the condemned slowly to sleep and then death or stomp on the accelerator so as to kill them faster but more painfully...a choice I would not relish having to make.

The gas vans were unreliable. Peoples tolerance to CO varies, CO output from engines of different type varied, leaks in pipes and seals also contributed to variable results.

14 posted on 10/06/2012 10:20:08 AM PDT by fso301
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To: Happy Rain
“Which was worse, Treblinka carbon monoxide or Birkenau Zyklon B?”

Either would suck but I think I'd take the Zyklon. Death was almost instantaneous especially if you were near one of the openings. In Treblinka, they packed the people in the chambers like sardines. Sometimes the engines supplying the gas would break down and the poor souls would be packed in there for hours.

15 posted on 10/06/2012 10:34:18 AM PDT by HenpeckedCon (What pi$$es me off the most is that POS commie will get a State Funeral!)
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To: fso301
Agree—and one must accept that technical problems that are obstacles to technical solutions are just that to technicians even if the tasks they are given are in the pursuit of genocide.

I would never hold the producers of bullets to the same moral standards as they who shoot them.

A real technician would criticize the inefficiency of the Holocaust even if the body count was twice what it was.

Not nice nor mean they just promote efficacious applications to sundry objectives.

16 posted on 10/06/2012 10:35:48 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Water is wet and Obama is a liar.")
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To: Happy Rain
and one must accept that technical problems that are obstacles to technical solutions are just that to technicians even if the tasks they are given are in the pursuit of genocide.

Yep. And I forgot to mention fuel was precious to the Germans.

17 posted on 10/06/2012 10:45:10 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
Adolf Eichmann’s fanatically applied power to divert resources from the battlefields to the extermination of the Jews perhaps saved more lives than were lost in the death factories...
...at least that, as some have said, is why FDR ignored their plight when he had documentation of the in progress Holocaust on his desk...

...but I expect, like Obama, he was just another soulless socialist antisemite thinking only of himself.

18 posted on 10/06/2012 11:12:08 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Water is wet and Obama is a liar.")
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To: BroJoeK

Looks like the woman at the bottom right may be carving a ham?


19 posted on 10/06/2012 3:25:57 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Noticed the small blurb on the disappearance of the USS Grunion which vanished on her way to Dutch Harbor with seventy souls on board.

She left Pearl Harbor on 30th June, 1942 and after calling at Midway to top up her tanks, headed north to the Aleutians on her first war patrol.
She was ordered to patrol north of Kiska and on 15 July she reported that she had been attacked by an enemy destroyer and that she had fired three torpedoes at the vessel, but all missed.

Later that same day she reported that she had engaged three Jap submarine chasers , sank two, and badly damaged the other.
After the war Jap records confirmed the Grunion had indeed sunk the Ch.25 and Ch.27.

On 19 July she joined other US subs patrolling the approaches to Kiska harbor.On the 28th she reported an unsucessful attack on enemy shipping and a subsequent depth charging.

Her last report on the 30th told of heavy anti-submarine activity in her patrol area so she was ordered to leave the area and proceed to Dutch Harbor.
USS Grunion and her crew of seventy were never seen or heard from again.

The loss of Grunion will always remain a mystery and post war examination of Japanese records reveal no enemy action after she left Kiska.

20 posted on 10/06/2012 5:09:44 PM PDT by Larry381 ("Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.")
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Not sure when Marines were stopped being sent to Vietnam. I was in the Delta in early ‘70 when my brother wrote me saying he was going to be sent to Vietnam. There was a rule at the time about only one brother being allowed in a combat zone at any one time. So my Company CO sent my brother’s CO a letter saying I was already in Vietnam. My brother was stationed on a ship for the rest of his time.
So, at least around April ‘70 they were still being sent.


21 posted on 10/06/2012 7:33:45 PM PDT by Ecliptic (.)
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To: Happy Rain
Happy Rain: "Adolf Eichmann’s fanatically applied power to divert resources from the battlefields to the extermination of the Jews perhaps saved more lives than were lost in the death factories..."

That is an odd formulation, suggesting... what?
That had Nazis not devoted resources to exterminating Jews, they might have delayed Allied victory by a few days, weeks or even months?
And this brief extension of war might have taken the lives of a number greater than the six million Jews murdered?

I'd say it's a huge stretch, and not worth adding to the Holocaust's moral equations.

Happy Rain: "at least that, as some have said, is why FDR ignored their plight when he had documentation of the in progress Holocaust on his desk..."

FDR did not "ignore their plight", he did whatever he could.
But the first thing to remember is that deaths of six million Jews were mere drops in a sea of blood now estimated around 75 million total deaths worldwide.
So, where Jews were murdered at the rate of perhaps 125,000 per month, non-Jews were dying at a rate of circa 1,500,000 per month.
Therefore, President Roosevelt's first priority was to end the war with victory as quickly as possible.
From that goal he was willing to spare no resources.

In the end, the question for FDR is similar to that for Pope Pius XII -- was there really anything more they coulda, shoulda, woulda done to save some lives without costing even more of others' lives?

22 posted on 10/07/2012 3:51:49 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: Happy Rain
Adolf Eichmann’s fanatically applied power to divert resources from the battlefields to the extermination of the Jews perhaps saved more lives than were lost in the death factories... ...at least that, as some have said, is why FDR ignored their plight when he had documentation of the in progress Holocaust on his desk...

Despite the continual whitewashing of history by the Left. Responding to the plight of the Jews would have been inconsistent with who FDR was.

FDR knew of the horrors carried out by the communists in the Soviet Union yet in his first year as president formally recognized the USSR. Throughout the 1930's FDR knew the horrors were continuing unabated in the USSR yet thought Stalin to be a swell guy. FDR watched the Japanese commit one barbaric atrocity after another in China and across Asia yet did nothing.

Through the 1930's FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis, Japanese and Communists. Why should anyone believe he would have lifted a finger to help the Jews?

...but I expect, like Obama, he was just another soulless socialist antisemite thinking only of himself.

Yep.

23 posted on 10/07/2012 5:41:23 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301; Happy Rain
fso301: "Through the 1930's FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis, Japanese and Communists. Why should anyone believe he would have lifted a finger to help the Jews?"

In all fairness to FDR, he certainly did do more than "lift a finger" to help the Jews, both before and after the outbreak of war in Europe.

First of all, throughout this period, total immigration to the US was severely restricted by US law, which FDR could not change.
However, what he did do was make sure that of those legally admitted, the vast majority were Jewish.

Second, before war started, FDR helped negotiate emigration of Jews from Germany to other countries in Europe & elsewhere.
By war's beginning, over 60% of Germany's half-million Jews had emigrated, unfortunately, most not far enough away.

Third, the "Holocaust proper" -- with all its horrors of mass exportations, gassing chambers and crematoriums -- did not really begin until after Hitler declared war on the United States.
By that time information on specific events in Eastern Europe was sealed up tight, and did not leak out until nearer war's end.

By mid-1943 the US was already punishing Germany with massive bombings, and was well along with planning the D-Day invasion.
Further, by then deaths world-wide were averaging circa 1.5 million per month, of which perhaps 125,000 were Jews.
So the question remains: what more coulda, shoulda, woulda FDR have done to save more Jews without increasing the deaths of others?

Finally, you misread FDR entirely if you fail to understand his close relationship to the American Jewish community, his dependency on them for political support, and his desires to do whatever he could to help them.
Indeed, at the time they were entirely supportive of FDR's goals and priorities.

In this regard I should mention that the atom bomb dropped on Japan was originally intended for Germany, and FDR's "Morganthau Plan" was to reduce Germans to farmers & agricultural workers who could harm nobody.

In short, FDR hated the Germans, wanted them punished as severely as possible, and in that was hugely appreciated by the American Jewish community.

24 posted on 10/07/2012 8:18:08 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK; Happy Rain; Homer_J_Simpson
In all fairness to FDR, he certainly did do more than "lift a finger" to help the Jews, both before and after the outbreak of war in Europe.

It's been some time since I went down this path of study but my impression has always been that there are disconnects between what many believe FDR said, what he actually said, what he did and probably most importantly what he had the power to do.

First of all, throughout this period, total immigration to the US was severely restricted by US law, which FDR could not change. However, what he did do was make sure that of those legally admitted, the vast majority were Jewish.

This may be where one of those FDR disconnects exists. I just did a very superficial review of U.S. immigration in the 1930's. Perhaps the following quote from the U.S. Holocaust Museum summarizes my general understanding:

his increased involvement in the refugee issue helped to fill the combined German and Austrian quotas for the first and only time: 27,300 Germans and Austrians, mostly Jewish refugees, entered the United States in 1939.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007411

Second, before war started, FDR helped negotiate emigration of Jews from Germany to other countries in Europe & elsewhere. By war's beginning, over 60% of Germany's half-million Jews had emigrated, unfortunately, most not far enough away.

One could say FDR had an "anywhere but here" attitude toward assisting Jewish resettlement. From the U.S. Holocaust Museum:

On July 6, 1938, he summoned a conference on refugees in Évian-les-Bains, France. The US president had hoped that the participating countries would pledge to take in some refugees, although his larger goal was to create an intergovernmental organization that would settle Reich Jews in large numbers in remote areas of Africa, South America, and elsewhere. Roosevelt expended some time and effort, and was willing to spend some money, on these mass resettlement schemes during 1938 and 1939.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007411

Third, the "Holocaust proper" -- with all its horrors of mass exportations, gassing chambers and crematoriums -- did not really begin until after Hitler declared war on the United States. By that time information on specific events in Eastern Europe was sealed up tight, and did not leak out until nearer war's end.

We didn't know is not an excuse. Over the past year, followers of Homer's daily NYT thread have read numerous credible reports of mass slaughter taking place, especially in East Europe.

By mid-1943 the US was already punishing Germany with massive bombings, and was well along with planning the D-Day invasion. Further, by then deaths world-wide were averaging circa 1.5 million per month, of which perhaps 125,000 were Jews. So the question remains: what more coulda, shoulda, woulda FDR have done to save more Jews without increasing the deaths of others?

Without using the example of British humanitarian assistance during the Greek famine and American food shipments to Vichy, I agree with you here. Once the war started, FDR in order to save the most lives had to focus on bringing the war to a rapid conclusion.

Finally, you misread FDR entirely if you fail to understand his close relationship to the American Jewish community, his dependency on them for political support, and his desires to do whatever he could to help them. Indeed, at the time they were entirely supportive of FDR's goals and priorities.

I understand how Jews view FDR but as is the case now, if the demographic is more closely examined, I bet FDR had strongest support from the secular socialist Jews he could most easily relate to.

In this regard I should mention that the atom bomb dropped on Japan was originally intended for Germany, and FDR's "Morganthau Plan" was to reduce Germans to farmers & agricultural workers who could harm nobody.

In short, FDR hated the Germans, wanted them punished as severely as possible, and in that was hugely appreciated by the American Jewish community.

If I remember correctly, FDR reportedly didn't blink when Stalin told him every German officer, or every German officer above the rank of lieutenant should be executed.

25 posted on 10/07/2012 11:05:55 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
fso301: "It's been some time since I went down this path of study but my impression has always been that there are disconnects between what many believe FDR said, what he actually said, what he did and probably most importantly what he had the power to do."

We have debated this subject on Homer's threads several times now.
My references are:
Saving the Jews, Franklin D. Roosevelt and the Holocaust by Robert N. Rosen

And Churchill and the Jews, a Lifelong Friendship by Martin Gilbert

The bottom line for both books is that while we may think they didn't do everything they shoulda, at the time it was believed they did everything they coulda.

fso301: "Perhaps the following quote from the U.S. Holocaust Museum summarizes my general understanding:

Here is Rosen's response (page 441):

fso301: "One could say FDR had an "anywhere but here" attitude toward assisting Jewish resettlement."

By US law in effect since the 1920s there were only so many immigrants the US could accept, period.
FDR did what he could to find homes for the others.

fso301: "We didn't know is not an excuse.
Over the past year, followers of Homer's daily NYT thread have read numerous credible reports of mass slaughter taking place, especially in East Europe."

And during 1942 or 1943, President Roosevelt coulda done what, exactly, about it?

fso301: "Without using the example of British humanitarian assistance during the Greek famine and American food shipments to Vichy,"

The death toll in Greece from famine was around 300,000 before food relief shipments began arriving in 1942.
These were possible because of agreements between Allies and Nazis.
No such agreements were possible regarding Jews in Poland and Russia.

fso301: "I bet FDR had strongest support from the secular socialist Jews he could most easily relate to."

Secular or not, American Jews supported FDR's efforts to save Jews in Europe.

26 posted on 10/07/2012 3:10:05 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
We have debated this subject on Homer's threads several times now.

And I'm confident we will continue to do so.

My references are: Saving the Jews, Franklin D. Roosevelt and the Holocaust by Robert N. Rosen

And Churchill and the Jews, a Lifelong Friendship by Martin Gilbert

Thanks! I always appreciate book recommendations. I'm not going to be able to read them in time for our present discussion but I will make it a point to check them out.

The bottom line for both books is that while we may think they didn't do everything they shoulda, at the time it was believed they did everything they coulda.

Was that based on a decision to do the right thing, or doing what was best for FDR? The difference can be significant.

-snip-

Here is Rosen's response (page 441):

"World War II began in September 1939. By then Hitler had power over the Jews of Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia, but not the Jews of Poland and Russia, who later became his chief victims.

"The Jewish population of Germany in 1933 was about 500,000 (525,000 if the Saar is included after 1935). Rubinstein estimated that at most, 24,700 Jewish children and youth remained within the pre-1933 boundaries of Germany in September 1939

My understanding is that there were significantly more than the Rubenstein figure of Jews in Germany as of 9/39. Perhaps this is a technical difference between Jews living within the pre-1933 boundaries versus 1939 boundaries.
"From 1938 to 1940, the United States responded positively to the crisis. In that period of restrictive immigration laws and wide-spread antisemitism, Jews comprised half of all immigrants admitted to the United States.
Do the authors provide numbers to support their claims? I already provided numbers showing that the quota of immigrants admitted to the United States from Germany was only met in 1939.
The democracies had a small window of opportunity to take in the bulk of the Reich's Jews and they succeeded, even given the difficult circumstances.
I think this is where our perspectives differ sharply. I see the democracies as having had ample time to prevent the need for any emmigration but they didn't. While Britain and France were appeasing Hitler, FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis right on through the 1930's. Had FDR cut off trade with Germany and Japan around 1937, what would the stateside economic impact have been to the socialist utopia FDR was trying to create?

By early 1939 when the democracies began to realize they had a crisis largely of their own making, whatever they began doing was too little, too late.

"While it is true that the United States had a strict quota system established in the 1920s, the quota for Germany (25,957 per year) was highest for any country other than Britain (65,721).

It was much higher than Italy (5,802), Ireland (17,853), or Spain (252), and ironically, German and Austrian Jews benefited from the German quota.

Ok but did the authors provide an annual breakdown of immigration figures throughout the 1930's so that we can see what kind of demand there was for U.S. visas throughout the 1930's?

"FDR tried to do even more. He held his nose and vigorously pursued a ransom scheme, the Rublee Plan, with the Nazis in 1938 and 1939 through the IGCR, which failed only because the Nazis would not agree to let the Jews go. His willingness to support this scheme came from the fact that he was far ahead of the rest of the world, including the American Jewish leadership, in seeing what might lay ahead if the Jews of Germany were not ransomed."
I will have to read the books you cite in order to better understand the author's claim of FDR's far-sightedness. I don't see the evidence based on the snippet you provided.

By US law in effect since the 1920s there were only so many immigrants the US could accept, period. FDR did what he could to find homes for the others.

Yep. FDR sure had his hands tied by U.S. laws, didn't he. Powerless to do anything. /sarc.

And during 1942 or 1943, President Roosevelt coulda done what, exactly, about it?

As I mentioned earlier in this post, by '42-'43, it was too late. Let's see what Homer posts over the next two years but so far, I don't recall reading any articles where FDR even publicly addresses the plight of the Jews.

Perhaps an offer could have been made to pay German transport of Jews to say Trieste where they would then be taken aboard specially designated ships via Suez to Madagascar. I don't see such theoretical public offer being anything other than one the allies would hope the Germans declined.

The death toll in Greece from famine was around 300,000 before food relief shipments began arriving in 1942. These were possible because of agreements between Allies and Nazis. No such agreements were possible regarding Jews in Poland and Russia.

Did FDR even try to reach any agreement concerning Jews in Eastern Europe???

27 posted on 10/08/2012 5:34:40 AM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
fso301: "I always appreciate book recommendations."

Neither book is available in Kindle, but both can be purchased quite reasonably.

fso301: "Was that based on a decision to do the right thing, or doing what was best for FDR?
The difference can be significant."

I doubt if, in FDR's own mind, there was any difference.
Remember, while Jews voted 90% for FDR in 1940, they have also sometimes voted in large numbers for Republicans, including 43% for Harding in 1920, 40% for Eisenhower in 1956, 35% for Nixon in 1972 and 39% for Reagan in 1980.
My point is, Roosevelt did not take Jewish votes for granted.
So he appointed Jews to high government posts and tried to protect those endangered in Europe.

fso301: "My understanding is that there were significantly more than the Rubenstein figure of Jews in Germany as of 9/39.
Perhaps this is a technical difference between Jews living within the pre-1933 boundaries versus 1939 boundaries."

I think the key words in that quote are: "Jewish children and youths".
In other words, older parents stayed behind, sacrificing themselves to make sure younger people could survive.

The total number left in Germany by September 1939 was over 100,000 iirc.

fso301: "Do the authors provide numbers to support their claims?"

Yes, but I'll have to get back to you later with those.
And yes, there was an issue between what Roosevelt intended and what the State Department did -- to the point where Secretary of State Cordell Hull reportedly lied & exaggerated to FDR about how many Jews were being admitted.
So the President believed he was doing more good than, in fact, happened.

Bottom line, according to Rosen: of 300,000 Jews who emigrated from Germany, 200,000 came to the US.

fso301: "While Britain and France were appeasing Hitler, FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis right on through the 1930's.
Had FDR cut off trade with Germany and Japan around 1937, what would the stateside economic impact have been to the socialist utopia FDR was trying to create? "

That sounds like perfect 20-20 hindsight to me.
Remember, throughout this period (and even today to a lesser degree) most Americans were in the grip of German World War One propaganda which claimed that war was nobody's, or everybody's, fault especially those nasty Brits, and therefore the US should have then, and certainly should now (late 1930s) remain "neutral".
No reason for the US to again "pull Britain's chestnuts out of the fire."

Yes, President Roosevelt saw sooner and clearer than most the threats represented by Hitler's Nazis, but Americans by large majorities were dead set against joining, much less provoking, another war.

Today, of course, we are much wiser than those old-timers, right?
Today we know just how to deal with lunatics bent on mass destruction, such as those in, oh, say, Iran, don't we? ;-)

fso301: "Ok but did the authors provide an annual breakdown of immigration figures throughout the 1930's so that we can see what kind of demand there was for U.S. visas throughout the 1930's?"

I don't remember seeing numbers broken down in such detail.
The question of visa requests versus actual immigration is what was at issue between FDR and Secretary Hull.
Hull is reported to have "confused" one set of numbers for the other.

But the key point to remember is that while there were long-standing strict limits on legal immigration, a disproportionate number (half) of these went to Germany's Jews.

fso301: "I will have to read the books you cite in order to better understand the author's claim of FDR's far-sightedness.
I don't see the evidence based on the snippet you provided."

Rosen goes into some depth on the Rublee Plan.
It was an abject lesson to FDR on Nazi vileness.

fso301: "Yep. FDR sure had his hands tied by U.S. laws, didn't he.
Powerless to do anything. /sarc."

Your sarcasm might have some credibility, if you could find quotes from American Jews of that time who were critical of FDRs "inactivity".
We would then want to contrast those quotes with others supporting FDR.
My guess is that supporters would outnumber detractors roughly nine to one.

fso301: "I don't recall reading any articles where FDR even publicly addresses the plight of the Jews."

In fact, there were joint Allied statements issued more than once.
The issue "now" -- autumn of 1942 -- was whether the Pope could be persuaded to join or issue his own condemnation of Nazi atrocities.
The Pope refused, and that is some of the background to "Hitler's Pope" charges.
In truth, I'm certain, the Pope calculated that he could save more lives by remaining silent and working in secret, but those are the sorts of decisions faced by many in that time.

fso301: "Perhaps an offer could have been made to pay German transport of Jews to say Trieste where they would then be taken aboard specially designated ships via Suez to Madagascar."

Indeed, late in the war there were efforts made to negotiate ransom for safe passage of some Jews to safety.
But since they all required paying Nazis so they could prolong the war, almost nothing came of those efforts.

fso301: "Did FDR even try to reach any agreement concerning Jews in Eastern Europe???"

For such efforts as were made, the books offer many details.
Certainly nothing was attempted on the scale of saving any significant portion of the 6 million Jews and tens of millions of other innocents killed during the war.

28 posted on 10/08/2012 1:03:42 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
I wrote:
While Britain and France were appeasing Hitler, FDR wheeled and dealed with the Nazis right on through the 1930's. Had FDR cut off trade with Germany and Japan around 1937, what would the stateside economic impact have been to the socialist utopia FDR was trying to create?
You replied:

That sounds like perfect 20-20 hindsight to me. Remember, throughout this period (and even today to a lesser degree) most Americans were in the grip of German World War One propaganda which claimed that war was nobody's, or everybody's, fault especially those nasty Brits, and therefore the US should have then, and certainly should now (late 1930s) remain "neutral". No reason for the US to again "pull Britain's chestnuts out of the fire."

I agree that a certain amount of hindsight went into my comment. However, I wrote that aware of a persistent revisionism I come across by which British appeasement is blamed on a desire to not upset business relations Chamberlain's family had with the Germans. These revisionists never mention FDR's laissez faire attitude towards doing business with Germany and Japan through the same period.

Today, of course, we are much wiser than those old-timers, right? Today we know just how to deal with lunatics bent on mass destruction, such as those in, oh, say, Iran, don't we? ;-)

You are correct. Many parallels exist between the present and the 1930's. Through the cold war we though we learned a lesson and refused to do business with potential adversaries. With the end of the cold war came a new attitude that appears little different from that of the 1930's.

But the key point to remember is that while there were long-standing strict limits on legal immigration, a disproportionate number (half) of these went to Germany's Jews.

Superficially, that bolsters pro-FDR arguments. However, the nagging factoid as presented by the U.S. Holocaust Museum is that the German quota was only filled in 1939. If half the visas issued to Germans went to Jews as your sources state, yet the entire German quota was filled only once in the 1930's, it's hard to claim that FDR was giving preference to German Jews.

Without investigating deeper, the only year one could make a strong claim that German Gentiles may have been bumped in favor of German Jews was 1939.

Why didn't enough German Jews apply to fill the quotas in prior years? What was the ratio of German Jewish visa applicants versus approvals through the 1930's? How did that compare versus visa approval-denials by German Gentiles through the same period?

I wrote:

fso301: "Yep. FDR sure had his hands tied by U.S. laws, didn't he. Powerless to do anything. /sarc."
You replied:

Your sarcasm might have some credibility, if you could find quotes from American Jews of that time who were critical of FDRs "inactivity". We would then want to contrast those quotes with others supporting FDR. My guess is that supporters would outnumber detractors roughly nine to one.

FDR had been elected in a Reaganesque landslide. It's not as if he was barely hanging on. He had a large store of political capital that he could have drawn upon. Back when I last researched this topic, I did come across Jewish critiques from that era of FDR's decision making but as is the case at present with large political blocs, dissenting voices are drowned out.

I wrote:

fso301: "I don't recall reading any articles where FDR even publicly addresses the plight of the Jews."

You replied:

In fact, there were joint Allied statements issued more than once. The issue "now" -- autumn of 1942 -- was whether the Pope could be persuaded to join or issue his own condemnation of Nazi atrocities. The Pope refused, and that is some of the background to "Hitler's Pope" charges. In truth, I'm certain, the Pope calculated that he could save more lives by remaining silent and working in secret, but those are the sorts of decisions faced by many in that time.

It's not clear to me from what you wrote that FDR in his appeal to the Pope specifically mentioned Jews? Additionally, did FDR's appeal to the Pope appear in the NYT?

Furthermore, the Pope's first priority was probably that of Catholic clergy, the slaughter of which we periodically read reports of particularly in the East.

I wrote:

Did FDR even try to reach any agreement concerning Jews in Eastern Europe???"
You replied:

For such efforts as were made, the books offer many details. Certainly nothing was attempted on the scale of saving any significant portion of the 6 million Jews and tens of millions of other innocents killed during the war.

The reason I asked the question about public offers to resettle Jews is because I've read many post-war interviews of German citizens who indicate having early in the war connected the changing fortunes, particularly the bombings of their cities with German treatment of the Jews.

Many of these same citizens would have secretly been aware of allied broadcasts. This could have been used by the allies as a wedge issue.

29 posted on 10/09/2012 7:16:12 AM PDT by fso301
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