Kant vs. Augustine on Concealed-Carry Handguns

The Atlantic ^ | Jeffrey Goldberg

[trekdown]

... I can't get two Newtown numbers out of my head: 26, the number of people, mainly small children, who were murdered in the school; and 20, the number of minutes it took the police to arrive

[trekdown]

1) 20, the number of minutes it took the police to arrive.


2) Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990

The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was originally passed as section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990. It added 18 U.S.C. § 922(q); 18 U.S.C. § 922 itself was added by the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968.

The Supreme Court of the United States subsequently held that the Act was an unconstitutional exercise of Congressional authority under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution in United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995). This was the first time in over half a century that the Supreme Court limited Congressional authority to legislate under the Commerce Clause.

Following the Lopez decision, President Clinton's Attoney General Janet Reno proposed changes to 18 U.S.C. § 922(q) that were adopted (or "concealed" and "widely ignored" as one author put it) in section 657 of the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub.L. 104–208, 110 Stat. 3009, enacted September 30, 1996.[5] These minor changes required that the firearm in question "has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce".[6]

As nearly all firearms have moved in Interstate Commerce at some point in their lives, critics assert this was merely a legislative tactic to circumvent the Supreme Court's ruling.

3) Gun Free Zones Are Free Killing Zones

[Tilted Irish Kilt]

“what Obama wants for America, Only outlaws with guns,
the rest of us ->TARGETS “

“20 freking minutes for the police to arrive” in sufficient numbers ... You have to be kidding !!

“It doesn’t really make sense to ban guns, because in reality what that means is that you are actually banning effective self-defense.
Despite the constant hammering by a news media with an agenda,
guns are used in America far more to stop crime than to cause crime.”~ by Larry Correia ( firearms expert )

[jonrick46]

Rescuing someone suffering a heart attack with CPR is no different than rescuing innocent life from the murderous hands of a criminal with a gun. With both emergencies, it is fortunate that someone is available to perform the necessary rescue. We need as many rescuers as possible.

[Theoria]

'20, the number of minutes it took the police to arrive'

No they didn't. The police got there in a few minutes. The 'coordination' was actually done very well.

As for gun free zones. The infamous DC vs. Heller, also wrongly continues that Gov't can restrict guns at schools, gov't buildings, and 'sensitive' areas they want.

[mosesdapoet]

In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled Kant vs. Augustine on Concealed-Carry Handguns, Theoria wrote:
‘20, the number of minutes it took the police to arrive’
No they didn’t. The police got there in a few minutes. The ‘coordination’ was actually done very well.

OK prove it! If you have a reliable source to go to please provide it because thus far that has been the assertion by many authoratative sources.
Thank You

[Sherman Logan]

No they didn't. The police got there in a few minutes.

Right. It actually took only 20 minutes from the initial 911 call for the cops to clear the building. Hard to imagine a much more efficient response.

[Yo-Yo]

How about a transcript of the radio traffic?

http://www.examiner.com/article/dispatch-release-911-calls-of-connecticut-shooting-at-sandy-hook-elementary

No twenty minutes there.

[jsanders2001]

Hard to make sense of the timeline but sounds like the first call came in at 9:35 am and an officer reported that the suspect was down at 9:53 am.

18 minutes. I still believe that if there were people on site with CCLs the shooter would have been down within a minute or two from when the first shot was fired.

[mc5cents]

"...and a national database of gun sales could have some use, particularly for post-shooting investigations,..." and I stopped reading right there.

National databases are a prelude to confiscation and have NO use in post-shooting investigations other than determining that the shooter was not registered and probably stole the guns!!

[Yo-Yo]

National databases are a prelude to confiscation and have NO use in post-shooting investigations other than determining that the shooter was not registered and probably stole the guns!!

It's also "useful" to find out who the shooter stole the gun(s) from, so that owner can be prosecuted for neglegent storage of firearms.

[arthurus]

To a philosophical leftist, self defense is a heinous crime. The criminal is, by virtue of being a criminal, acting out of irrational impulses due to unequal society's shaping of his character. He is not responsible for his actions. the self defender, on the other hand is acting rationally in defending his life. He is therefore acting with cold calculation in harming the criminal who is attacking him. He is therefore the evil actor, guilty of evil intent, and culpable for the death or injury of the innocent criminal , innocent because he is a product of unequal society.

To a practical leftist, the criminal is not a danger to the State- to the rulers. The rational self defender is dangerous to the state, therefore the self defender is the one that must be neutralized.

And for the practical leftist, criminals are useful for keeping the normal citizens in fear and off balance. Solzhenytsin explained well how that works.

I know the philosophical argument originally from discussions I had years ago with my childhood friend who became a professor at UF. He is very intelligent IQwise but, like many such folks is afflicted with the hubris that lets him believe that because of his "superior" intelligence, he is able to discern the better way to live for each and everyone and for society as a whole.

[Yo-Yo]

18 minutes. I still believe that if there were people on site with CCLs the shooter would have been down within a minute or two from when the first shot was fired.

Yes, 18 minutes to clear the building, not 18 minutes to arrive.

I wholeheartedly agree that if one or more of the staff had CCW permits and were carrying, the whole thing would have ended much sooner.

[Dead Corpse]

20 minutes.

I can clear my IWB holster in under two seconds. Even if I’m carrying in my Smartcarry rig, it’s still only seconds.

Seconds. Not minutes.

Give me my full RKBA and everywhere I go, there will be someone willing to stand up to random nutecase/violence and protect myself and those around me.

But this assumes that the debate is about “solving” criminal actions. It isn’t. It’s about control. Period.

[mosesdapoet]

In the General/Chat forum, on a thread titled Kant vs. Augustine on Concealed-Carry Handguns, Yo-Yo wrote:
How about a transcript of the radio traffic?
http://www.examiner.com/article/dispatch-release-911-calls-of-connecticut-shooting-at-sandy-hook-elementary
“No twenty minutes there”

To others reading this it’s about the reporting of the local Newtown police response to the school shooting. There a dozens of postings in FRs on it. Most claim it took 20 minutes,in fact I heard this repeated on the Levin show but in reporting he was even unclear, and a few claim the response was quicker.

None defending the response thus far offer a defined time to repond line from a reliable source which should be the deparment processing the call. But because they seemingly haven’t only leads to the question how long did it take for them to make it there.

I have no horse in this race the aim here is accuracy .