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KRAV MAGA Isreali Self-Defense Question (Vanity)
Krav Maga of Orange County ^ | 8/27/2013 | A Navy Vet

Posted on 08/28/2013 1:29:06 PM PDT by A Navy Vet

I have a question for all the martial arts types here.

Is Krav Maga all it's cracked to be? As far as I can research it is about horrific and deadly force against an attacker without years of training in Karate, Kung-Fu, Ju-jitsu and other disciplines.


TOPICS: Health/Medicine; Military/Veterans; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: kravmaga; marshallarts; selfdefense
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I am now 63 years old can't carry in California. Although I do have the options of pepper spray and hand-held tazers. Unfortunately, those devices don't always work.

As I walk on my treadmill and work weights, I am in better shape that most in their 50's, maybe even 40's.

I don't want to go through endless hours of training for Karate, Kung-fu, Akido, nor any of those marital arts. I just want to learn to do simple moves to cause the worst damage to attacker, quick and simple. I have read that Krav Maga is the answer.

My bona fides are of a club bouncer and taking some unruly dipshit by the throat and escorting him outside. They would quickly settle down. I understand that Krav Maga has the same simple approach in hitting or sqeezing vital areas. Am I wrong? I would appreciate any input, since I'm thinking about enrolling in the local class.

1 posted on 08/28/2013 1:29:06 PM PDT by A Navy Vet
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To: A Navy Vet

Krav Maga is all about fighting off multiple attackers at the same time. Using whatever tools you have. To make space and ultimately get away from the dangerous situation.

Think all the gangs of amish attacking individuals in the news lately.


2 posted on 08/28/2013 1:34:07 PM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: A Navy Vet

Maybe you need to move out of CA?


3 posted on 08/28/2013 1:34:24 PM PDT by isthisnickcool (NO MORE IRS!)
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To: A Navy Vet

i blame the jews for krav maga


4 posted on 08/28/2013 1:34:53 PM PDT by teeman8r (Armageddon won't be pretty, but it's not like it's the end of the world.)
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To: isthisnickcool

That’s my bet. Get a gun, or get gone.


5 posted on 08/28/2013 1:35:25 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: A Navy Vet

I’d also like to see some answers on this subject. Any former (or current) IDFers out there willing to take on the question? Thanks in advance.


6 posted on 08/28/2013 1:36:02 PM PDT by rktman (Inergalactic background checks? King hussein you're first up.)
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To: 2banana

At 63, this in not your normal option.


7 posted on 08/28/2013 1:36:05 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: A Navy Vet

No experience whatever with Crav Maga. Just remember you have TWO ELBOWS.


8 posted on 08/28/2013 1:37:29 PM PDT by Rannug ("God has given it to me, let him who touches it beware.")
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To: Rannug

And the heel of your hand is better than your fist, because of the vulnerability of fingers.


9 posted on 08/28/2013 1:44:07 PM PDT by expat2
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To: A Navy Vet

At age 55 I took a bone density test and discovered I had osteopenia. Within months I had broken two toes. You may find that you can’t hit anybody for fear of breaking your own bones. I took Fosamax for several years and extra calcium and got my bone density close to normal. But there are side effects.

Believe me, I’m in good shape for my age. Hardly a day goes by that somebody doesn’t comment on the bulging arms or six pack. (Okay, mostly it’s me who comments, but I am well developed and have a flat stomach.) But it would be crazy to hit somebody hard point to hard point. If you must go with martial arts, stick with Judo.

The point is, you need a weapon. Go talk to a martial arts person and get a recommendation for something you can carry. Two heavy sticks with a short string. (Get good with them.)


10 posted on 08/28/2013 1:44:51 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
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To: A Navy Vet
Victimhood is NOT an option for me and my wife. Don't bother going gun on me since I live in California and not easy to CCW.

I do have what is called a Knuckle Blaster (http://www.amazon.com/Knuckle-Blaster-Stun-Gun/dp/B008S8HCAC, but again, the crazies can ignore since it is lower voltage that a police style tazer, and you have to be up close and get wind up getting shocked yourself if not carefull.

As I mention above, ff you strongly grab a person by the adams apple, in my experience they quickly become docile. Krav Maga has many other pressure points. Yes, I know some incapacitate and others outright kill. I seriously don't care which in this day and my and my wife's age.

Don't have time to pull a gun (which I can't carry legally), or pull out pepper spray or a small hand held tazer. What do you do? I'm thinking throat grab; kick to the groin; step on their instep; bring your flatten hand upside their armpit, etc.

11 posted on 08/28/2013 1:47:23 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

I’m armed with a handgun. Regardless of the laws of the State I happen to be in. No, I don’t have a CCW. No, I don’t care what you or anybody else thinks or feels about it.


12 posted on 08/28/2013 1:48:12 PM PDT by redreno (Americans don't go Gault. Americans go Postal.)
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To: rktman
The Zohan approves.


13 posted on 08/28/2013 1:49:47 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: teeman8r

WTF is that supposed to mean?

I like Abir martial arts, too.

English
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F9RWiu-Vik
Hebrew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2aGALQqmEc

Krav Maga on Human Weapon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4x_mucNG2Q


14 posted on 08/28/2013 1:52:28 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (I’m not a Republican, I'm a Conservative! Pubbies haven't been conservative since before T.R.)
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To: A Navy Vet

When I was 57 I took a year of Krav Maga instruction (2-3 times per week). I was usually, but not always, the oldest guy there. However, I learned techniques that can be a life saver. Krav Maga is very demanding. We were usually sweating thru all clothes by the end of the hour. Krav is systematized street fighting. The object is to disable your opponent(s) in the first 1-3 seconds of a street assault. It also teaches some good disarming techniques.

Well worth your time. There are some related programs. Krav Maga is a copy-righted trademark. Locally, the spinoffs might have any name.


15 posted on 08/28/2013 1:54:23 PM PDT by firebasecody (Orthodoxy, proclaiming the Truth since AD 33)
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To: A Navy Vet

My karate instructor thinks it’s good. There are many vids on YouTube to give you a taste.


16 posted on 08/28/2013 1:58:32 PM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (Great vid by ShorelineMike! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOZjJk6nbD4&feature=plcp)
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To: A Navy Vet

Ok, lets go back to the basics and work up from there. In ANY conflict, person on person to army on army, there are 5 things that will determine the winner.

Speed
Strength
Stamina
Skill
Spirit

Any martial art will advance those five things, be it Karate, Judo, whatever. So taking a martial art is good. The question becomes, what are your advantages. Are you a huge hulk of a person so that strength is a natural advantage for you? Are you perhaps a smaller person but quick on your feet so that speed is your advantage? Just as people come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, so do martial arts styles. Also understand that asking which martial art is best is likely to cause a flame war. So here are some of my personal observations.

I have used Shaolin Chin-Na techniques to take a bruiser’s hands off of my throat and pin him to the wall. I have used a lunge move from saber fensing to knock the wind out of someone to end an fight before it started. I have also gotten my head handed to me from a standard boxer and have been pinned by a wrestler. Believe me, there is a lot more to a fight than just what you know

Offense vs Defense -
What is your spirit (mindset)? Beat the crap out of the guy or keep from getting hurt. I find offensive spirits tend to gravitate towards hard styles. Defensive spirits to control styles such as Akido, ju-jitsu etc.

At 65 you are getting on in years. Not trying to insult but just observing fact here. Your body does not heal as quickly. You can’t take the punch that you used to. Your strength and speed are going to start slowing down if they have not already. With all of that in mind, I would consider softer more controling styles.

Krav Maga to me is more combat and less control. My observation would be yeah, you probably could do well with it for the next few years. How about when you are 70? 75? At some point, you are going to have to change the approach and thus, the skill set.

So, perhaps a combination of study? Krav Maga or Wing Chun or Pa Qua for now. Add to that some occasional classes in Hapkido or Akido or Chin-Na. Having more than one tool is also useful at keeping yourself out of jail. Not all situations call for breaking the guy’s collar bone.


17 posted on 08/28/2013 2:04:51 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: A Navy Vet
4 1/2 minutes of pretty good stuff
18 posted on 08/28/2013 2:08:13 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: 2banana
"Krav Maga is all about fighting off multiple attackers at the same time. Using whatever tools you have. To make space and ultimately get away from the dangerous situation."

Exactly, and at my older age while in some what shape, I want those tools, even if not hard tools. So do you think it's worth pursueing?

19 posted on 08/28/2013 2:08:33 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

Its all nuts and eye gouging.


20 posted on 08/28/2013 2:08:56 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: isthisnickcool
"Maybe you need to move out of CA?"

Maybe you should think before making such an inane comment. Millions count on Calif jobs which they many not find elsewhere, not to mention those who don't want to leave family. Yours and others simple thinking about moving out of Cali are just that - simplistic.

Yes, it's a crap socialist State, but not everyone can just pick up and move to your location of choice. Thanks for not addressing my inquiry.

21 posted on 08/28/2013 2:15:14 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: teeman8r
"i blame the jews for krav maga"

That's a joke, right?

22 posted on 08/28/2013 2:16:31 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: Gaffer
"Get a gun, or get gone."

Okay. So how do I get a CCW in California? Right, I can't. So I'm supposed to make my wife quit her work that she loves and move to where? Well, I'm thinking after she retires about norther AZ or NV. But guess what, many of can't just pack up leave. So like above, thanks for NOT answering my question.

23 posted on 08/28/2013 2:20:48 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

The truth of where you live is now apparent.


24 posted on 08/28/2013 2:25:19 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Gaffer
"At 63, this in not your normal option."

Again, I'm in great shape and have been my share of tussles. I'm just asking is Krav Maga the end all?

Understood, however grab a person strongly in the front throat and unlike the movies, they become very docile. You just have to squeeze hard enough where they can't breath and don't have the energy to cross counter with their arms.

25 posted on 08/28/2013 2:25:25 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

Similar background, although I am younger. Used to be a club bouncer, and took different martial arts from the age of 4, including judo, boxing and traditional karate to black belt level. I enjoyed Krav Maga training the most, no forms or endless yelling and stretching. I did it for about 4 years in my mid 30’s and wish I knew some of the techniques when I was working the door. It is effective and the focus is to do enough damage to allow you enough time to escape or until help comes, or put an attacker down and out if escape is impossible. I teach my kids the techniques from KM, not from any of the other martial arts.

As with any martial art, seek out a good instructor that has walked the walk, not some paper tiger.

I would suggest combining that with some of Hoch Hockheims type knife and stick fighting to have a pretty complete non-gun self protection training set.


26 posted on 08/28/2013 2:25:41 PM PDT by Ironfocus
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To: Rannug

“Just remember you have TWO ELBOWS.” Yes, but don’t want to break them on the jawbone. Pressure points is what it’s about. I’ve used them in past altercations.


27 posted on 08/28/2013 2:27:23 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (An Oath is Forever)
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To: A Navy Vet

only if you think it’s funny...

if not, then it was an attempt at a joke.


28 posted on 08/28/2013 2:36:03 PM PDT by teeman8r (Armageddon won't be pretty, but it's not like it's the end of the world.)
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To: A Navy Vet
I have never taken Krav Maga classes but wouldn't hesitate if they were nearby. I have looked into and would love to get good at it. Good stuff.

Also, check out Crossfit. Crossfit doesn't provide you a means of defense but it helps folks of all ages get fit and being fit is a major part of any self-defense program. Crossfit is particularly good for seniors...you will get VERY fit and love it (good for wives too).

29 posted on 08/28/2013 2:38:41 PM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: A Navy Vet
I've done a number of martial and fighting arts (there's a difference) since second grade, and thus may be able to give some semblance of advice. Krav Maga, and similar Israeli styles like Kapap and Haganah, are generally effective fighting arts. These are combative styles that are well in the region of fighting styles rather than martial arts. The purpose is to take a person out ...end of story.

What to look out for:

1) Check out the credentials of your teacher. When Krav Maga became popular in the West in the 90s there are a lot of Karate teachers who started calling what they do Krav Maga ....when it is really a mix of some Karate, some MMA, and lots of cardio. That's not what you are looking for.

2) Attend one or two free lessons. The teacher should allow you to sit in for a class or two. If you have to pay before you see what's on offer ....walk.

3) You know yourself and your abilities. If the teacher and the class are demonstrating techniques that you know your body cannot do, walk!!!! Krav Maga is a relatively simple style ...it uses direct gross motor skills directed towards points of vulnerability like eyes and the throat. Any kicks are not higher than to the opponent's knee. Aggressiveness. If you see moves that involve high kicks, or complicated fine motor skill movements, walk!!!! You'll NOT be able to execute a fancy technique when under attack with surprise on the opponent's side and adrenalin pumping through your system. If it is complex it is not Krav Maga.

4) The teacher should be able to teach you simple direct techniques suited to your age. If he teaches you a move only a 19 year old gymnast can do, thank him for his time and walk.

5) Finally, a good Krav Maga teacher should spend a lot of time discussing situational awareness. That is orobably the most important skill ....noticing things. Without proper situational awareness even carrying a gun is mostly useless. Remaining aware of your environment is.important.

With that Krav Maga, and a number of other reality based self defense/offense systems, would be helpful. Even if you carry a gun. Stay away from traditional martial arts (they take time to develop real fighting skill), stay away from anything that looks flashy, stay away from anything that you feel is 'off.'

30 posted on 08/28/2013 2:39:05 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: A Navy Vet; teeman8r

Krav Maga was developed by the IDF.


31 posted on 08/28/2013 2:42:01 PM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: A Navy Vet

One tiny plea from a guy who used to be a Moo Duk Kwan instructor - don’t use this to “get back into shape”. You’ll get injured. Be in shape before you begin. Run, stretch, cardio machines, lose that 10 pounds you wanted to before you ever start. Then you can concentrate on the art, not on your body.


32 posted on 08/28/2013 2:50:46 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: A Navy Vet
I do have the options of pepper spray...

I think your answer might just be right there, at least until you get some serious training.

It's worth pointing out that a black belt in karate won't help you when you're stuck in your car. But quality pepper spray just might.

Avoid the junk spray that you see in the Wal-Mart checkout lines. Also avoid any spray that does not have an expiration date.

I buy my pepper spray from a police supply store. Perhaps you can talk to a local cop for advice on the best spray available in your area.

Come to think of it, that would make a pretty good Free Republic post: Advice on pepper spray.

33 posted on 08/28/2013 3:03:31 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: firebasecody
"When I was 57 I took a year of Krav Maga instruction (2-3 times per week). I was usually, but not always, the oldest guy there. However, I learned techniques that can be a life saver. Krav Maga is very demanding. We were usually sweating thru all clothes by the end of the hour. Krav is systematized street fighting. The object is to disable your opponent(s) in the first 1-3 seconds of a street assault. It also teaches some good disarming techniques. Well worth your time. There are some related programs. Krav Maga is a copy-righted trademark. Locally, the spinoffs might have any name.'

Thank you for an informed response. Guess I was wrong about the need for training, which is why I don't join dogo/mojo...haha.

I thought it was like my street fighting buddy who taught us to go for the soft and painful parts. His philosophy was to do the most painful thing to an attacker and then run (his specialty was gouging eyeballs and slapping your hands upside both ears to burst the ear drums, not to mention going for the throat which I said above helped me a number of times). Yup sounds like a spin off of Krav Maga or just plain street smarts.

Don't box; don't wrestle; hit the vulnerable body parts.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Others tell me to move, as If I could.

34 posted on 08/28/2013 3:10:17 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: A Navy Vet

I’m taking Gracie combatives. Check them out.


35 posted on 08/28/2013 3:16:26 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: A Navy Vet
His philosophy was to do the most painful thing to an attacker and then run

It absolutely amazes me how many instructors ignore the "run" part. I've observed, and participated in, quite a few self defense seminars over the years.

Never once did I hear an instructor say "after you have disabled your attacker, get away!"

36 posted on 08/28/2013 3:17:54 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I holding this lantern? I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: taxcontrol
Thanks for your input. However, everything I've read about Krav Maga needs little training if you learn where to hit.

All the other martial arts take years of training while working their way up through their special moves and belts. Krav Maga is about immediately hurting your opponent through what we use to call "low blows" in my teenage years. Now, if I can learn to break an attackers knee, I no longer give a shit about a "fair fight". If you read above, I've actually wrapped my skinny fingers around an over-sized punk and sqeezed his vocal chords until his face turned red and he started to slink. I let go not wanting to hurt him permanently - he never came back.

Interesting story to prove my point: I and my wife and her girlfriend were in a familiar biker bar some years back. I walked up to my wife to talk with her and some Vato thought he would give me shit for getting in-between his pick-up sceme. I layed my drink on the bar in anticipation, but he jumped me from the side. We both went down.

Now here is the interesting part. As we went down we knocked over our lead waitress and not knowing what was happening from who, she immediately put me into a choke hold while the dumbshit was trying punch me out that I luckily avoided. My friends pulled the vato off me, but she was still hanging on for dear life. I manage to get enough strength and wind and twist my head around and tell her your choking me, Stacy. She then let go.

Moral of the story choke holds and other Krav Maga holds/hits work! That little girl could have choke the life out of me. It doesn't take much.

37 posted on 08/28/2013 3:40:22 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: A Navy Vet

Nothing wrong with some good self defense training for a back up. That said, there is no substitution for a Ruger LCP 380 locked and loaded in your hip pocket! This coming from a lifelong martial artist with several years of Kick Boxing in Miami back in the day. Just saying.


38 posted on 08/28/2013 3:46:40 PM PDT by Desparado
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To: taxcontrol
" You can’t take the punch that you used to. Your strength and speed are going to start slowing down if they have not already."

Entirely my point, Everything has slowed down, so now I need an edge. Glad you're enjoying your training, but for an olde fart like me, I want to know MORE pressure points. I want to know what hurts and drives the single attacker away.

If more, than I should be carrying and just kill them, although I do carry my Knucle Blaster when ever I take my wife out in public. Not as good as my Sig which I can't carry in Cali, but can disuade those who think we are an easy target. Zap them, they will look for easier targets. Thanks for your input.

39 posted on 08/28/2013 3:52:31 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: for-q-clinton
"Its all nuts and eye gouging."

Yup. However, you left out kicks to the shins, groin, and instep which the easiest and most assured. If the scum gets a hold of you...think eye gouge, ear bursting hits, and the always faithful groin kick...although that's never assured unless you place it just right.

Krav Maga teaches you so many other vital areas that would really hurt an attacker and give you the chance to run. Some say, why should I run? Why would anyone other than a SEAL want to continue the fight with an attacker who may more stuff coming at you? Incapcitate the fuck and run. You'll live to live another day.

40 posted on 08/28/2013 4:03:47 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: knarf

Looks like your basic Karate brawls from a movie. Krav Maga means real permanent harm. But thanks.


41 posted on 08/28/2013 4:08:40 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: Gen.Blather

I still have my extending baton. It’s nasty at full length. I also have a PR-24 from my Navy days, but never counted on it on than for self-protection.


42 posted on 08/28/2013 4:12:17 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: expat2
"And the heel of your hand is better than your fist, because of the vulnerability of fingers.

Funny you mention that. The last bar fight I got into I tried the palm heel thing, but just couldn't reach the fuck. Definitely shortens your reach. Won't do it again and take my chances with my knucles...break or not. If I can break his jawbone while breaking a few knuckles, I'm okay with that.

43 posted on 08/28/2013 4:16:43 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: A Navy Vet
...can't carry in California.

You know the old saying, better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six.

5.56mm

44 posted on 08/28/2013 4:28:21 PM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: Ironfocus

Thanks, that is what I thought about KM. Like I said in some post above I instinctively went for the guys larnx as he was at least 4 inches higher than me. I knew I couldn’t fist fight him or wrestle to the ground for the other bouncers to join in. I knew I had one surprise so went for the jugular with fingers around the larnyx and tighten to where he couldn’t speak. The poor over-sized jock was gasping for air. I actually start feeling really bad, so I let off thinking if he gets his wind he could knock me out. He learned his lesson and went back to his car.


45 posted on 08/28/2013 4:33:01 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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To: A Navy Vet

Understand I am not knocking Krav Maga. I have taken classes myself. It is effective but is not always the best for each person and/or situation. Understand my bias is more of the JKD ideals of minimal movement, maximum effect, absorb what is useful, discard the rest.

As for learning pressure points they often can require a bit of hand strenght to execute properly. Again, not knocking but not everyone execute a median nerve strike to the upper arm to release a grip. Great tool to know if you can execute it and are in a situation where you have the ability to execute it. In my training, I have learned more about the human body and the manipulation (control) from Chin-Na and Hopkido. Sometimes a block and move to wrist lock or arm bar with a rapid introduction to the table, chair, wall of floor is all it takes to back of a guy and his buddies. Fight stopped, nothing but injured pride, no cops involved. Again, does not always work but it is another tool.

My recommendation would be sure - go for it. See if you like the training. Add some other training to go with that in perhaps a year or so.


46 posted on 08/28/2013 4:45:44 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: spetznaz

Best post on the thread, Spetznaz. Thanks.

I’m a cop who became a Krav Maga instructor. The skills that I’ve learned have helped me go home safely to my family on more than a few occasions. It has helped me to be way more prepared for whatever might come my way.

Krav Maga is all about getting you to a level of much greater proficiency in a relatively short period of time, too. Re-read Spetznaz’s post and follow his excellent advice. Then get training! Best wishes!


47 posted on 08/28/2013 5:13:01 PM PDT by islander-11 (Save Nantucket - Vote Republican!!!)
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To: A Navy Vet

Yeah, it does shorten the reach. If you want to use the fist, best put it on the nose — nicely cushioned for the hand and painful for the nose.


48 posted on 08/28/2013 7:56:50 PM PDT by expat2
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To: redreno

Roger that. Hope you’re doin’ good and surviving all this dang kali smoke. Looks like it’s here for the weekend too.


49 posted on 08/28/2013 9:12:37 PM PDT by rktman (Inergalactic background checks? King hussein you're first up.)
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To: Ironfocus
"It is effective and the focus is to do enough damage to allow you enough time to escape or until help comes, or put an attacker down and out if escape is impossible."

Thank you, that is my understanding of KM also. At 63 while in good shape, I no longer have the strength nor speed nor agility of younger opponents. My objective is to go for what really hurts the attacker, whether it be a larynx grap; a finger in the eye; a ball grab, what ever. My days of "fair fighting" are over.

50 posted on 08/28/2013 10:46:13 PM PDT by A Navy Vet (s)
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