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Cosmos Scrubs Religion's Positive Influence from the History of the Scientific Revolution
Evolution News and Views ^ | March 25, 2014 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 03/25/2014 8:03:13 AM PDT by Heartlander

Cosmos Scrubs Religion's Positive Influence from the History of the Scientific Revolution

Casey Luskin March 25, 2014 5:45 AM | Permalink

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We live in interesting times. On the one hand, we're constantly assured that science and religion don't conflict. At the same time, we're told -- sometimes by the same people -- that religion hinders science. Perhaps this is to be expected. Materialists want to project a religion-friendly image because popular culture expects it, while at the same time they make arguments that they hope will ultimately erode religious belief. This requires a tricky balancing act, on vivid display in Sunday night's third episode of the new Cosmos reboot, "When Knowledge Conquered Fear."

200x200cosmos.jpg

Our host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, doesn't dare directly attack religion. Instead, he artfully portrays humanity in early history as "an abandoned baby on a doorstep," with no idea how we got here, and no idea "how to end our cosmic isolation." As a result, he says that we looked for signs, hoping to find some "special meaning" in our world, but he says whenever we think we've found something "sacred," then we "deceive ourselves and others." Tyson claims that the "pre-scientific world" (e.g., the medieval era when religion dominated Western society) was "filled with fear," but scientists like Newton and Halley ushered in a "permanent revolution" in human thought, which "set us free."

As Jay Richards observes, Tyson calls Newton a "God-loving man" and "a genius." At the same time, Tyson tells viewers that Newton's religious studies "never led anywhere." Similarly, he acknowledges that Newton's work suggested the universe was "the work of a master clockmaker," but he says that Newton's appealing to God is "the closing of a door. It doesn't lead to other questions." In other words, it was only when Newton wasn't doing religion, and was doing science, that he contributed anything positive. If anything, Newton's religion hindered scientific advance. Tyson's message is simple: the best way to do good science is to throw off the shackles of religion.

History, in contrast, tells a different story. Early scientists including Newton were inspired to their scientific research precisely because of their religious beliefs. Newton was a monotheist who believed in a loving, truthful, personal God who would create an orderly, intelligible universe that God wanted us to discover and enjoy. It was these theological beliefs that propelled Newton to study the laws of nature.

Of course Tyson tells viewers none of this. To promote his revisionist history, he had to ignore numerous prominent historians of religion and science. Don't take it from me -- take it from them.

The eminent John Hedley Brooke writes scornfully:

The implications of scientific advance for Christian theology are often reduced to a plausible but simplistic formula: as natural phenomena, formerly explained by the will of a deity, were increasingly understood in mechanistic terms, increasingly brought within the domain of natural laws, so the belief in an active, caring Providence was eroded until the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob became nothing more than a remote clockmaker. (Brooke, 1996, p. 7)
In fact, Brooke tells us, while religion and science have had disagreements over the years, Newton and his contemporaries were inspired by belief in God to do science in the first place:
Any suggestion that what was revolutionary in seventeenth-century thought was the complete separation of science from theology would be disqualified by Newton himself, who once wrote that the study of natural philosophy included a consideration of divine attributes and of God's relationship with the world. ... Robert Boyle and Isaac Newton saw the study of nature as a religious duty. A knowledge of God's power and wisdom could be inferred from the intelligence seemingly displayed in the designs of nature. Newton affirmed that the natural sciences had prospered only in monotheistic cultures... He believed the universality of his laws was grounded in the omnipresence of a single divine Will ... if he is made to symbolize the new canons of scientific rationality, then it cannot be said that the scientific revolution saw a separation of science from theology. (Brooke, 1996, p. 8)
Brooke continues: "For Newton, as for Boyle and Descartes, there were laws of nature only because there had been a Legislator." (p. 9) These early scientists wanted to discover the laws that God had built into the natural world. They searched for those laws because they believed in a "Legislator." Cosmos again dramatically revises and indeed falsifies this history.

Lest you dismiss John Hedley Brooke, he is no religious apologist. He formerly taught at Oxford (among many other schools), and has served as president of the British Society for the History of Science and the International Society for Science and Religion. Another eminent scholar of science and religion worth considering is Ian G. Barbour, whom PBS says "has been credited with literally creating the contemporary field of science and religion." Barbour writes: "Newton himself believed that the world-machine was designed by an intelligent Creator and expressed God's purposes." (Barbour, 1997, p. 18) He explains just how profound an influence religion had in inspiring science in England during the crucial early stages of the scientific revolution:

The English authors whom we would call scientists called themselves "natural philosophers" or "virtuosi." They were mainly from Anglican (Church of England) and Puritan (Calvinist) backgrounds. The charter of the Royal Society instructed its fellows to direct their studies "to the glory of God and the benefits of the human race." Robert Boyle (1627-1691) said that science is a religious task, "the disclosure of the admirable workmanship which God displayed in the universe." Newton believed the universe bespeaks an all-powerful Creator. Sprat, the historian of the Royal Society, considered science a valuable aid to religion. This view is celebrated in Addison's hymn:
The spacious firmament on high
With all blue ethereal sky
And spangled heavens a shining frame,
Their great Original proclaim.

The unwearied sun from day to day,
Does his Creator's power display,
And publishes to every land,
The work of an Almighty hand.
The virtuosi identified themselves with the Christian tradition in which they were nourished, and many of them see to have experienced a personal response of reverence and awe toward the marvels they beheld. The psalmist had written, "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth God's handiwork," and the virtuosi felt they could appreciate this handiwork in ways not possible to any previous generation. Expressions of awed surprise and admiration of the skill of the Creator dot the pages of their writings. The sense of the grandeur and wisdom of God was evidently a very positive experience for many of them and not just an abstract intellectual formula or a concession to cultural respectability. (Barbour, 1997, pp. 19-20, emphasis in original)It's not hard to understand how the founders of the world's most prestigious and long-lasting scientific society -- who believed in a wise and powerful Creator -- would then be inspired to investigate the "workmanship" of that Creator. In its Episode 3, Cosmos admits that early intellectual giants of science like Hooke, Newton, and Halley were a part of this same society. Religion and the founding of modern science went hand-in-hand, but Cosmos doesn't tell viewers that.

Another great figure in the early history of modern science, Johannes Kepler (1571-1630), wrote:

The heavenly motions are nothing but a continuous song for several voices (perceived by the intellect, not the ear); a music which, through discordant tensions, through sincopes and cadenzas, as it were (as men employed them in imitation of natural discords) progresses towards certain predesigned, quasi six-voiced clausuras, and thereby sets landmarks in the immeasurable flow of time. It is, therefore, no longer surprising that man, in imitation of his creator, has at last discovered the art of figured song, which was unknown to the ancients. Man wanted to reproduce the continuity of cosmic time within a short hour, by an artful symphony for several voices, to obtain a sample test of the design of the Divine Creator in His works, and to partake of his joy by making music in imitation of God." (Johannes Kepler, Harmony of the World, 1618, quoted in Olenick and Apostol (1985), p. 553)
Ian Barbour asks, "Why was it in Western civilization alone, among all the cultures of the world, that science in its modern form developed?" (Barbour, 1997, p. 27, emphasis in original) Because only the West had what Barbour says are the needed "intellectual presuppositions underlying the rise of science." Those presuppositions came directly from the Judeo-Christian worldview, which had uniquely permeated the West. Barbour explains:
[T]he medieval legacy also included presuppositions about nature that were congenial to the scientific enterprise. First, the conviction of the intelligibility of nature contributed to the rational or theoretical component of science. The medieval scholastics, like the Greek philosophers, did have great confidence in human rationality. Moreover, they combined the Greek view of the orderliness and regularity of the universe with the biblical view of God as Lawgiver. Monotheism implies the universality of order and coherence...

Second, the doctrine of creation implies that the details of nature can be known only by observing them. For if the world is the product of God's free act, it did not have to be made as it was made, and we can understand it only by actual observation. The universe, in other words, is contingent on God's will, not a necessary consequence of first principles. This world is both orderly and contingent, for God is both rational and free. ...

Third, an affirmative attitude towards nature is dominant in the Bible. The goodness of the world is a corollary of the doctrine of creation. God's purposes involve the created order and the sphere of time and history ... biblical religion had never deified natural forces or vitalities of organic life; the world was not an object of worship, and thus it became an object of study. (Barbour, 1997, p. 28, emphasis in original)Barbour concludes: "many historians of science have acknowledged the importance of the Western religious tradition in molding assumptions about nature that were congenial to the scientific enterprise." (p. 29)

Holmes Rolston III, Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at Colorado State University and winner of the Templeton Prize, likewise explains:

Indeed, to turn the tables, it was monotheism that launched the coming of physical science, for it premised an intelligible world, sacred but disenchanted, a world with blueprint, which was therefore open to the searches of the scientists. The great pioneers in physics -- Newton, Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus, -- devoutly believed themselves called to find evidences of God in the physical world. Even Einstein, much later and in a different era, when puzzling over how space and time were made, used to ask himself how God would have arranged the matter. A universe of such beauty, an Earth given over to life and to culture -- such phenomena imply a transcending power adequate to account for these productive workings in the world. (Rolston, 1987, p. 39)
Yet another scholar, David C. Lindberg of the University of Wisconsin-Madison, former president of the U.S. History of Science Society, writes:
There was no warfare between science and the church. The story of science and Christianity in the Middle Ages is not a story of suppression nor one of its polar opposite, support and encouragement. What we find is an interaction exhibiting all of the variety and complexity that we are familiar with in other realms of human endeavor: conflict, compromise, understanding, misunderstanding, accommodation, dialogue, alienation, the making of common cause, and the going of separate ways. Out of this complex interaction (rather than by repudiation of it) emerged the science of the Renaissance and the early-modern period. (Lindberg, 2000, p. 266.)
Or consider another authority, Discovery Institute fellow Michael Keas, who explained in Salvo Magazine:
Are Christianity and science at war with one another? Not according to leading historians. "The greatest myth in the history of science and religion holds that they have been in a state of constant conflict," wrote historian of science Ronald Numbers in 2009. Even though he and other historians of science have documented this conclusion thoroughly, many myths about the alleged warfare between science and religion continue to be promulgated in the popular literature and textbooks.

The truth is that science and biblical religion have been friends for a long time. Judeo-Christian theology has contributed in a friendly manner to such science-promoting ideas as discoverable natural history, experimental inquiry, universal natural laws, mathematical physics, and investigative confidence that is balanced with humility. Christian institutions especially since the medieval university, have often provided a supportive environment for scientific inquiry and instruction.

Why have we forgotten most of the positive contributions of Christianity to the rise of modern science? This cultural amnesia is largely due to the influence of a number of anti-Christian myths about science and religion. These myths teach that science came of age in the victory of naturalism over Christianity. (Keas, 2013)Dr. Keas goes on to debunk these myths, He explains in detail how Judeo-Christian theology provided the fertile ground that was necessary and natural for that development. Read Dr. Keas's essay for the full argument -- it's free online.

Cosmos Episode 3 tells us that Isaac Newton's religion was like the "the closing of a door," and "never led anywhere" because belief in God "doesn't lead to other questions." This is historically wrong. A chorus of modern historians of science and religion observe that Judeo-Christian conceptions of God played an important, positive role in the rise of modern science. Not only that, but Judeo-Christian religion is crucial in answering a question that has long puzzled historians: Why did modern science only arise in the West? Cosmos whitewashes all of this, presenting instead a shallow revisionist formula: science good, religion bad. If scientists themselves thought in such simplistic terms, we never would have had science.


TOPICS: Education; History; Religion; Science
KEYWORDS: atheism; atheistsupremacist; carlsagan; cosmos; cosmosseries; fundamentalatheism; globalwarminghoax; historyeducation; liesbyomission; neildegrassetyson; purge; revisionisthistory; thenogodgod; tvseries; waronhistory; waronreligion; waronsciencememe
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Let no one think or maintain that a person can search too far or be too well studied in either the book of God's word or the book of God's works.
Francis Bacon

I believe only and alone in the service of Jesus Christ. In him is all refuge and solace.
Johannes Kepler

God makes people conscious of their inward wretchedness, which the Bible calls "sin" and his infinite mercy. Unites himself to their inmost soul, fills it with humility and joy, with confidence and love, renders them incapable of any other end than Himself. Jesus Christ is the end of all and the center to which all tends.
Blaise Pascal

This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being….
There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history. It must be expressed in the very form of sound words in which it was delivered by the apostles. For men are apt to run into partings about deductions. All the old heresies lie in deductions….
The true faith was in the Biblical texts.
Isaac Newton

Speculations, man, I have none. I have certainties. I thank God that I don't rest my dying head upon speculations for "I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day."
Michael Faraday

Think what God has determined to do to all those who submit themselves to his righteousness and are willing to receive his gift [of eternal life in Jesus Christ]. They are to be conformed to the image of his Son and when that is fulfilled and God sees they are conformed to the image of Christ, there can be no more condemnation.
James Clerk Maxwell

Do not be afraid to be free thinkers. If you think strongly enough, you will be forced by science to the belief in God.
William Thomson (later known as Lord Kelvin)

You will understand that my atheism was inevitably based on what I believed to be the findings of the sciences and those findings, not being a scientist, I had to take on trust, in fact, on authority.
C. S. Lewis

I'm very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world is very deficient. It gives a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight, knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.
Erwin Schrodinger

There is a tremendous tradition of distinguished scientists who were and are Christians. I hope that my work is considered sufficiently outstanding to fall into the distinguished among that category. I also hope I have given you enough evidence that you will never again believe that it is impossible to be a scientist and a Christian.
Dr. Henry F. Schaefer, III

1 posted on 03/25/2014 8:03:14 AM PDT by Heartlander
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To: Heartlander

I cannot Stand Tyson or Michio Kako, they’re as bad as Gloria Alred is if there’s a camera around.


2 posted on 03/25/2014 8:07:38 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it? Do you like it, Scott? I call it, "Mr. & Mrs. Tenorman Chili.")
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To: Heartlander

The anti-God crowd looks at these giants of science and counters with the quackery of Darwin. They mock the ocean liners as they paddle their leaking canoe around the whirlpools of genuine scientific inquiry that cast doubt on their cult of pseudo-science.


3 posted on 03/25/2014 8:11:15 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: Heartlander

“Nature abhors a vacuum.”
François Rabelais (c. 1494-1553)
Gargantua and Pantagruel (1534)
Quoting an old Latin proverb (“Natura abhorret vacuum.”)

In the absence of Belief,
falls the Void,

In the Void,
there is only Silence,

The Silence of Islam ...


4 posted on 03/25/2014 8:17:47 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: Heartlander

Religion has been an enemy of science since Pope Benedict XVI burned Galileo at the steak.


5 posted on 03/25/2014 8:48:24 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: Lx

most of the hipsters that worship these camera hogs wouldn’t even know who most of the people quoted in the article even were.

They just know how much they “love science” because they dropped some Mentos in some soda and marveled at the mess it makes.


6 posted on 03/25/2014 8:48:57 AM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: Heartlander

(flame suit on)

I find the claim that Christianity did more to advance science than hinder ludicrous.

But it wasn’t Christianity per se that inhibited scientific achievement. It was the Church run by men. Churches are a man made corruption. Man learned it could take the teachings of the Bible and twist them and use them to control the populations. Something that still goes on today.


7 posted on 03/25/2014 8:49:54 AM PDT by Usagi_yo (Journalticion -- journalist + politician. Used to be called propagandist.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

He burned his steak? I would be so pissed.......;)

Cosmos sucks, condescending and insulting. And the host is AffAct in the worst (next to the Pres__ent).


8 posted on 03/25/2014 8:56:24 AM PDT by waterhill (I Shall Remain, in spite of __________.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Funny


9 posted on 03/25/2014 8:59:07 AM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Jeff Chandler
Huh? I thought he burned Michael Westin ...

As for the "Cosmos" show ... I saw about the last half hour of episode 3. Tiresome, tedious, tendentious, travesty ... I watched the original Cosmos, with Carl Sagan. It had its problems, but this dreck is absolutely dreadful. I shan't be watching any more of it.

10 posted on 03/25/2014 9:02:46 AM PDT by NorthMountain
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To: Usagi_yo
Episodes in the Origin & Development of Science
11 posted on 03/25/2014 9:04:05 AM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander
He looks like Raul...


12 posted on 03/25/2014 9:04:13 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Heartlander
"Of course Tyson tells viewers none of this. To promote his revisionist history..."

So he didn't go into Newton's religious motivations as you would have preferred. So what? That doesn't make what he said revisionist, or even wrong. What was factually incorrect? Anything?

13 posted on 03/25/2014 9:04:19 AM PDT by mlo
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To: Usagi_yo

Read “The Rise of Early Modern Science - Islam, China, and the West”.

Christianity is the basis of “the West” and due to the underlying beliefs of Christianity, science advanced.

The other worldviews of the time inhibited scientific advancement.


14 posted on 03/25/2014 9:06:11 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Heartlander

Didn’t watch it.


15 posted on 03/25/2014 9:08:04 AM PDT by bmwcyle (People who do not study history are destine to believe really ignorant statements.)
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To: Heartlander

16 posted on 03/25/2014 9:08:25 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: Lx

“...portrays humanity in early history as “an abandoned baby on a doorstep,”...”

Why is that these “thinkers” who are portrayed as the best and the brightest always think that people who have gone before are unenlightened?


17 posted on 03/25/2014 9:10:36 AM PDT by Portcall24
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To: Portcall24

“Why is that these “thinkers” who are portrayed as the best and the brightest always think that people who have gone before are unenlightened?”

Usually by looking at what they did and thought. Future generations will look at us the same way.


18 posted on 03/25/2014 9:13:50 AM PDT by Fuzz
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To: mlo

I did not write the article but the series so far has had an anti-theistic slant to it IMO. A story can be told mostly factual and still have a slant as we can see in most reporting today.


19 posted on 03/25/2014 9:18:12 AM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

When Obama did the intro on the shows first nite it was all I need to know where this was headed. I turned the tv off when he was done and will never watch again.


20 posted on 03/25/2014 9:41:07 AM PDT by Afterguard (Liberals will let you do anything you want, as long as it's mandatory.)
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To: Heartlander
Science and Christianity are compatible because

"God created all things"

Ephesians 3:9

and science gives us information about God's universe.

"Science is possible only because we live in an ordered universe which complies with simple mathematical laws.The job of scientist is to study, catalogue and relate the orderliness in nature, not to question its origin.But theologians have long argued that the order in the physical world is evidence for God. If this is true, then science and religion acquire a common purpose in revealing God's work."

Paul Davies

21 posted on 03/25/2014 9:43:16 AM PDT by mjp ((pro-{God, reality, reason, egoism, individualism, natural rights, limited government, capitalism}))
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To: Heartlander

The guy behind this reboot of Cosmos is a vicious,militant atheist named Seth McFarland


22 posted on 03/25/2014 9:55:02 AM PDT by Paddyboy (Roma Omnia Vincit)
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To: Heartlander

OK. So a science program has an anti-theistic slant. This is a surprise? I’m still not getting the problem here.


23 posted on 03/25/2014 11:01:38 AM PDT by mlo
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To: mlo
The NCSE has even pointed out this bias from the first episode - in an analysis by Peter Hess .

It is odd that a great scientific series on the cosmos should open with an attempt to single out one victim of the Inquisition and hold him up as a martyr to science. For inexplicable reasons, Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey begins not with Copernicus confidently proposing his heliocentric hypothesis or Galileo excitedly proclaiming his telescopic discoveries. Rather, it begins with the story of Giordano Bruno (1548-1600), a renegade Dominican friar executed in 1600 for persistently preaching heretical theological views about a wide variety of core Christian doctrines.

Of course, in 2014 we don't burn people at the stake,… Christians don't cast about casually labeling any dissenting theological perspective as "heresy."

But Cosmos makes Bruno out to be a martyr who died heroically in the defense of early modern science, and this is a role he certainly did not play. Jole Shackleford details this nicely in his exploration of the myth that "Giordano Bruno was the First Martyr of Modern Science" in Ron Numbers' edited volume Galileo Goes to Jail and other Myths about Science and Religion (2009).

The idea of a reboot of the classic Cosmos series (1980) is exciting. The original series inspired in many people a deep and abiding love for science, and the revival has tremendous potential to expose a new generation to the wonder and value of science. I began watching Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey with great interest, in the hope of discovering some new perspectives on the fabulous story of our unfolding universe. Some new ideas are there indeed, and I will eagerly tune in to future episodes to see what else emerges. But I also saw -- among the compelling videos of the solar system and galaxies -- considerable slipshod history of science and a curiously antireligious bias.


24 posted on 03/25/2014 11:20:35 AM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

I agree that the Bruno segment was strange and out of place, and its connection to the subject was strained. But that’s not the point. Complaining about a bias against religion on a science program? That’s what I don’t get. Why shouldn’t it be biased?


25 posted on 03/25/2014 11:25:36 AM PDT by mlo
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To: mlo
Episodes in the Origin & Development of Science
26 posted on 03/25/2014 11:49:21 AM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

Dear Seth and Neil:

We saw you’re boobs.

No, that’s not a typo.


27 posted on 03/25/2014 11:53:58 AM PDT by RichInOC (2013-14 Tiber Swim Team)
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To: Heartlander

No, really, these guys are entitled to their own opinions on religion and science, but not their own facts.


28 posted on 03/25/2014 12:25:11 PM PDT by RichInOC (2013-14 Tiber Swim Team)
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To: Heartlander

Non sequitur. What’s that article got to do with it?


29 posted on 03/25/2014 3:01:38 PM PDT by mlo
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To: RichInOC

Agreed


30 posted on 03/25/2014 4:09:37 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: mlo
Complaining about a bias against religion on a science program? That’s what I don’t get. Why shouldn’t it be biased?

Are you stating that you believe it's OK for a science program to be biased against religion? Why?

31 posted on 03/25/2014 4:28:41 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

“Are you stating that you believe it’s OK for a science program to be biased against religion? Why?”

Are you stating that you believe it’s OK for a religious program to be biased against science? Why?


32 posted on 03/25/2014 5:38:52 PM PDT by Fuzz
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To: Jeff Chandler

Galileo died of old age while under house arrest.


33 posted on 03/25/2014 5:44:12 PM PDT by Rudder
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To: Fuzz

Can you show me where I said that?


34 posted on 03/25/2014 5:46:05 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

It’s obviously the inverse of what you appeared to be incredulous about. If one expects a science show to give religious arguments a fair hearing, wouldn’t it be important for religious programs to offer scientific arguments that may go against their particular religious teachings?


35 posted on 03/25/2014 6:00:54 PM PDT by Fuzz
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To: Rudder
Galileo died of old age while under house arrest.

I thought it was cardiac arrest.

36 posted on 03/25/2014 6:13:26 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: Fuzz

Most Universities were started by Judeo-Christians and debate from all sides was encouraged. Even today we see these types of debates. Again, can you show me where I said I believe it’s OK for a religious program to be biased against science?


37 posted on 03/25/2014 6:20:02 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

As so often happens, we’re talking past one another here.

Let’s clear this up.

You seem to think it’s NOT ok for a science program to show ‘bias’ against religion and it’s NOT ok for a religious program to show ‘bias’ against science. When these two views of the world are in conflict, what would you recommend happen?


38 posted on 03/25/2014 6:25:26 PM PDT by Fuzz
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To: Fuzz
No - you are trying to evade and frame a different argument. Again, you asked if 'I believe it’s OK for a religious program to be biased against science?' - I asked where I said this and you did not answer.

You changed the subject and stated It’s obviously the inverse of what you appeared to be incredulous about. If one expects a science show to give religious arguments a fair hearing, wouldn’t it be important for religious programs to offer scientific arguments that may go against their particular religious teachings? And, in fact, Universities do this...

So now you change the argument without answering or acknowledging - fine. Now you ask, When these two views of the world are in conflict, what would you recommend happen?

I will be kind enough to answer your question although you avoid answers. World views should be a side note to science. Science today has been hijacked by atheism - anyone who loves science should not sit idly and allow this to happen. An agnostic stance would not be an issue but science should not distort data to make it fit an atheistic narrative and then pretend that atheism is immune to criticism.

We can see how this bias has made people avoid the show by looking at the posts on this thread. This does not advance science.

Now let's see if you can actually answer a question. Do you believe that your mind was ultimately formed by mindlessness - lacking any intelligence?

39 posted on 03/25/2014 7:02:25 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

“No - you are trying to evade and frame a different argument.”

Same argument, other side of the coin.

“And, in fact, Universities do this...”

Universities are not television shows about science. If ‘Cosmos’ is showing a bias against religion, science classes in Universities show an extreme bias as it’s not even discussed at all, unless to show previously held views proven incorrect.

“World views should be a side note to science.”

Science is a world view. It’s a methodology, a way of thinking and solving problems.

“Science today has been hijacked by atheism - anyone who loves science should not sit idly and allow this to happen.”

Super-natural questions are simply not a part of science, by design and necessity.

“An agnostic stance would not be an issue but science should not distort data to make it fit an atheistic narrative and then pretend that atheism is immune to criticism.”

This simply is not happening, science has no ability to test the super-natural so can not make predictions on it. This absence is not hostility. The conflicts arise when religion has made claims on which science has cast doubt.

“We can see how this bias has made people avoid the show by looking at the posts on this thread. This does not advance science.”

To allow untestable, unprovable and often times contradictory narratives equal footing with science would not advance science either.

“Now let’s see if you can actually answer a question. Do you believe that your mind was ultimately formed by mindlessness - lacking any intelligence?”

Believe? No. It’s not a matter of what I believe to be true, but what there is evidence for.


40 posted on 03/25/2014 7:25:23 PM PDT by Fuzz
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To: Fuzz

Do you believe that your mind was ultimately formed by mindlessness - lacking any intelligence?”


41 posted on 03/25/2014 7:29:44 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: Heartlander

Science comes from Christianity. Only the ignorant say different.


42 posted on 03/25/2014 7:32:55 PM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Heartlander

Believe? No. It’s not a matter of what I believe to be true, but what there is evidence for.


43 posted on 03/25/2014 7:33:10 PM PDT by Fuzz
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To: Fuzz

I am asking what you believe based on the evidence - come on, you can do it... Do you believe that your mind was ultimately formed by mindlessness - lacking any intelligence?


44 posted on 03/25/2014 7:36:47 PM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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To: MrB

But they did, and it may be that at some point when the church lost that Feudalistic power it once had that things eased up. But to try and gloss over Christian (under the guise of various Man made church organizations) persecution of advanced thinkers is undeniable.

There was a pretty long period of time of when the Church couldn’t control it, they destroyed it.


45 posted on 03/25/2014 8:06:25 PM PDT by Usagi_yo (Journalticion -- journalist + politician. Used to be called propagandist.)
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To: Heartlander
"Are you stating that you believe it's OK for a science program to be biased against religion? Why?"

Yes, absolutely. Science and religion are opposed, and you shouldn't expect a discussion of one to defer to the other.

Yes, I know the history. But the history of something is not the thing itself. Talking about the history of science is not the same thing as science.

To its credit, the church was central to spreading and promoting learning. It did this to promote its own goals. It did not expect independent learning to conflict with religious truth. When it did the church could also be pretty vigorous about opposing it.

The reality is, religion and science have an essential conflict by their very nature. It's not about whether they agree on any particular conclusions, or not. It's about the method of arriving at truth. They claim opposite values. Religion values faith. Believe without reason. Science values doubt. Question everything, see for yourself. With one faith is a virtue, with the other a vice. One should not expect science or religion to be unbiased towards something that is essentially at odds with itself.

46 posted on 03/25/2014 8:20:52 PM PDT by mlo
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To: mlo
Science is a method.
I do not think any Christian oppose the scientific method.
In my opinion, you overstate things when you say “Science and religion are opposed”. I do not think there is any inherent opposition.

Now, some scientists — emphasis on “some” — do not like religion and are militant atheists. But many scientists are believers. So, again, there is no inherent all-or-nothing opposition between the systems.

Science wants to study the material world. And who would oppose that?
People of faith want to contemplate the immaterial world — but they may also be very interested in the physical world (we live here, you know). The history of science is largely the history of the Christians studying God's creation.

Lastly, if the show “Cosmos” simply wanted to talk about the physical world, and the current thinking of scientists about material things, that could be done in a pretty neutral way. Just stay focused. But they don't do that — they go out of their way to bring in the topic of believers and criticize them. And why? It's really unnecessary. But they cannot help themselves, because they feel threatened by people who engage in independent thought. Yes! If someone does not accept current scientific dogma, and if someone believes that something exists beyond the physical world, some scientists are very threatened by that. So they mock the believers. Meanwhile, people of faith are far more broad-minded. We accept both the physical world and the spiritual world and we have no need to discount half of that and say “There's just nothing there”.

You really will not find Christians who say "Science does not exist" but you will find some scientists who will say "God does not exist". They think they have proven a negative and their closed minds will not accept the idea that there is more to life than atoms.

47 posted on 03/25/2014 8:37:51 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: ClearCase_guy
"In my opinion, you overstate things when you say “Science and religion are opposed”. I do not think there is any inherent opposition."

I specifically identified what that inherent opposition was. I don't think it's necessary to post it again. If you think it's wrong you should explain how that is so.

48 posted on 03/25/2014 8:54:09 PM PDT by mlo
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To: Jeff Chandler

When Galileo died of natural causes in Jan 1642, the Pope at the time was Urban VIII; not Benedict XVI.


49 posted on 03/26/2014 4:58:09 AM PDT by X Fretensis
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To: mlo
Are you stating that you believe it's OK for a science program to be biased against religion? Why?

Yes, absolutely. Science and religion are opposed, and you shouldn't expect a discussion of one to defer to the other.

There is no justification for a science program to be intentionally biased against religion or to mischaracterize religion in order to fit a false narrative. Science should not have an agenda and should be free to follow evidence wherever it leads. This Cosmos series is a mixture of Hollywood and science – and Hollywood comes with its own agenda , beliefs, and ‘faith’.

Beyond this, the ‘conflict’ between science and theism is fairly new. Excerpt from Pulitzer Prize-winning author Daniel Walker Howe’s What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815-1844, p. 464:

As this chapter is written in the early twenty-first century, the hypothesis that the universe reflect intelligent design has provoked a bitter debate in the United States. How very different was the intellectual world of the early nineteenth century! Then, virtually everyone believed in intelligent design. Faith in the rational design of the universe underlay the world-view of the Enlightenment, shared by Isaac Newton, John Locke, and the American Founding Fathers. Even the outspoke critics of Christianity embraced not atheism but deism, that is, belief in an impersonal, remote deity who had created the universe and designed it so perfectly that it ran along of its own accord, following natural laws without need for further divine intervention. The common used expression “the book of nature” referred to the universal practice of viewing nature as a revelation of God’s power and wisdom. Christians were fond of saying that they accepted two divine revelations: the Bible and the book of nature. For desists like Thomas Paine, the book of nature alone sufficed, rendering what he called the “fables” of the Bible superfluous. The desire to demonstrate the glory of God, whether deist or – more commonly – Christian, constituted one of the principal motivations for scientific activity in the early republic, along with national pride, the hope for useful applications, and, of course, the joy of science itself.

50 posted on 03/26/2014 7:51:06 AM PDT by Heartlander (We are all Rodeo Clowns now!)
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