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Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators
Richardpoe.com ^ | 10-27-03 | Richard Poe

Posted on 10/27/2003 11:53:33 AM PST by SJackson

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 at 13:41

Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators

In a recent blog entry titled, "I've Been Red-Baited!", I wrote, "I'm not familiar with LibertyForum.org, but it appears to be an anti-Bush, anti-war message board with a distinctly anti-Jewish undertone."

A member of LibertyForum.org named Max Soldo (aka "thoughtcriminal") has responded by e-mail and provided further clarification of LibertyForum's political orientation. He writes:

This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.

All of this raises interesting questions for any message board moderator -- such as myself -- who has tried his best to allow a relatively high level of free expression. Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.

At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.

This is called "free speech."

I decided long ago that allowing Nazi trolls to occupy my message board and drive off everyone who does not share their idiosyncratic obsessions is a very poor method for encouraging "free speech." Therefore, I make frequent and forceful use of such allegedly un-libertarian methods as censoring and, when necessary, banning troublemakers, brownshirted or otherwise.

Apparently, the decision-makers at LibertyForum.org have adopted a different approach. As a result, their self-styled "libertarian" message board has become, by Mr. Soldo's description, a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."

"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.

Well, if that's the price, I don't think I'm willing to pay it. I will add the sad fate of LibertyForum.org to my growing list of reasons for rethinking whether or not I wish to continue calling myself a "libertarian."

 


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: antisemites; antisemitism; bannedfreeperhangout; libertarian; libertarians; libertyforum; nazis; nazism; needabouncer; neonazis; religion; religousintolerance; richardpoe; trolls
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1 posted on 10/27/2003 11:53:34 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson
So by exercising property rights on his own forum, he doesn't think he is a libertarian anymore?

What is down is up, and what is up is down in Mssr. Poe's world, or lets cut to the chase: Mssr. Poe does not know the first thing about liberty.
2 posted on 10/27/2003 11:56:58 AM PST by JohnGalt (Attention Pseudocons: Wilsonianrepublic.com is still available)
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To: SJackson; Chancellor Palpatine; Nix 2; dennisw; Catspaw
FYI, Richard Poe writes for FrontpageMagazine David Horowitz's website.
3 posted on 10/27/2003 11:57:53 AM PST by veronica ("I just realised I have a perfect part for you in "Terminator 4"....)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

Not only Nazis.

How Forums Are Being Taken Over By Pro-Arab Groups, Who Flood The Forums With Hate Propaganda

Palestine Report has ax to grind w/ FR Website

4 posted on 10/27/2003 11:58:39 AM PST by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Well, it looks like those trolls from Stormfront and the National Alliance have found a home.
5 posted on 10/27/2003 11:59:46 AM PST by Catspaw
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To: SJackson
LF is very hard to read. Many of the replies are simply pointers for other people to follow rather than comments. Much like a bump on FR but occupy more real estate.
6 posted on 10/27/2003 12:02:10 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: SJackson; veronica; Poohbah; Catspaw; BADJOE
Well, whodathiunk it? You mean that allowing a stream of anarchist types to take over a message board crowds out and runs off the normal ones?
7 posted on 10/27/2003 12:02:10 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Catspaw
Actually, many people there are former freepers.
8 posted on 10/27/2003 12:02:44 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
I am SHOCKED!! Shocked I tell ya!!!
9 posted on 10/27/2003 12:04:09 PM PST by Neets (<---Posting as Cheesecake, raspberry, chocolate, white chocolate, peanutbutter, plain ole NY Style)
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To: AppyPappy
I bet I know which ones are former freepers....if they're the ones posting anti-Jewish stuff, that is.
10 posted on 10/27/2003 12:04:53 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: JohnGalt
So by exercising property rights on his own forum, he doesn't think he is a libertarian anymore?...What is down is up, and what is up is down in Mssr. Poe's world, or lets cut to the chase: Mssr. Poe does not know the first thing about liberty.

I'm don't see where he's saying that at all, simply commenting on the evolution of a "libertarian" forum, which, imo, is anarchist at best, a fascist pseudo hate site at worst. Personally I don't associate them with libertarianism at all.

11 posted on 10/27/2003 12:05:32 PM PST by SJackson
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To: Catspaw
Yup. That's them.
12 posted on 10/27/2003 12:06:15 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
How many purges of these same skinheads did Jim make from FR...??

Did you notice that with each one, he said "why don't you go over to LF or LP, where you'll be more welcome"....

Thanks a bunch.

13 posted on 10/27/2003 12:09:26 PM PST by OWK
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To: SJackson
"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.

Well, that's the problem with folks whose philosophy relies on the fundamental assumption that people will be self-policing.

Instead of a nice, free-wheeling give and take (such as we enjoy here at FR), the inability or unwillingness to call bad-actors to account causes the sort of thing Mr. Poe describes -- turning the asylum over to the inmates.

14 posted on 10/27/2003 12:09:40 PM PST by r9etb
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
You mean that allowing a stream of anarchist Authoritarian types to take over a message board crowds out and runs off the normal ones?

Two evils.

15 posted on 10/27/2003 12:10:45 PM PST by Protagoras (Hating Democrats doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: OWK
Why the hell would they be wanted here? All that scintillating "the holocaust didn't really happen, Jews are at the root of all financial, news and entertainment organizations" type stuff.

If Jews had half the power these guys claim they do, I'd be beating the doors down to the synagogue, looking to convert and wondering when I got my first TV studio and newspapers from the ZOG......

16 posted on 10/27/2003 12:12:14 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: AppyPappy
Actually, many people there are former freepers.

Are you sure you're not thinking of www.libertypost.org?

17 posted on 10/27/2003 12:12:35 PM PST by DumpsterDiver
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To: DumpsterDiver
LP is libertarian than LF
18 posted on 10/27/2003 12:13:37 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Neets; Chancellor Palpatine

I'm shocked.

19 posted on 10/27/2003 12:14:18 PM PST by SJackson
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
"If Jews had half the power these guys claim they do, I'd be beating the doors down to the synagogue, looking to convert and wondering when I got my first TV studio and newspapers from the ZOG......"

Bwahahaha! Me too.

20 posted on 10/27/2003 12:14:25 PM PST by Vigilantcitizen
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Why the hell would they be wanted here? All that scintillating "the holocaust didn't really happen, Jews are at the root of all financial, news and entertainment organizations" type stuff.

They aren't wanted there either.

But Jim made damned sure when he kicked them out... that he pointed them all over to a fledgling Libertarian board that valued free speech and placed a premium on it.

Thanks a friggin bunch.

21 posted on 10/27/2003 12:15:17 PM PST by OWK
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
You mean that allowing a stream of anarchist types to take over a message board crowds out and runs off the normal ones?

Anarchists they're not, it's simply an enviornment easily penetrated.

22 posted on 10/27/2003 12:16:14 PM PST by SJackson
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To: AppyPappy
LP is LESS libertarian than LF
23 posted on 10/27/2003 12:16:27 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: JohnGalt
Mssr. Poe does not know the first thing about liberty. So. how would you handle it?

Life is full of dichotomy. There is no end to the challenges. God Himself is challenged by Satan, and believers are challenged by Amalek. For the philosophical non-believer, the usefullness of a God ethic is constantly in dispute.

So why not a libertarian message board, that tries to stick by the belief that good arguments must eventually win out over bad, be legitimately challenged to live up to that principle?

The answer is found in limited use of casuistry.
When absolute principles collide, one principle must give ground, temporarily, in the interests of preserving the overall rule. Rules are made to be broken. They should be broken only in observance of a higher principle -- whatever is applicable at the time.

Does this suggest an answer to the question I asked you to begin with?

I hope so. Maybe your answer will reach those who need to consider such troubles.

FReegards.

-Avoiding Sulla

24 posted on 10/27/2003 12:16:48 PM PST by Avoiding_Sulla (You can't see where we're going when you don't look where we've been.)
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To: AppyPappy
LP is libertarian than LF

LP is what? libertarian than LF.

I thought libertypost.org and libertyforum.org were two different things.

25 posted on 10/27/2003 12:17:00 PM PST by DumpsterDiver
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
If Jews had half the power that's claimed, I wouldn't be working for hourly wages and self-pubbing my poetry. 8>)
26 posted on 10/27/2003 12:17:07 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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To: OWK
But Jim made damned sure when he kicked them out... that he pointed them all over to a fledgling Libertarian board that valued free speech and placed a premium on it.

Puh-lease. Most of them were posting on both sites already. LF has been anti-Jew since its inception

27 posted on 10/27/2003 12:17:38 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
LP is LESS libertarian than LF

LOL. OK, ignore my post 25. Now I get it.

28 posted on 10/27/2003 12:18:45 PM PST by DumpsterDiver
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Why the hell would they be wanted here? All that scintillating "the holocaust didn't really happen, Jews are at the root of all financial, news and entertainment organizations" type stuff.

That's tame compared to the neo-Nazi spam-o-rama I found in "my comments" section last week. It'd been pulled before I could read it on the thread, but it had links to hard-core neo-Nazi sites and a whole bunch of spew.

29 posted on 10/27/2003 12:19:14 PM PST by Catspaw
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To: DumpsterDiver
Are you sure you're not thinking of www.libertypost.org?

From what I can tell the folks in charge at Liberty Post are making an effort not to allow their site to become a dumping ground for the nutters, anti-semitic and otherwise.

30 posted on 10/27/2003 12:19:23 PM PST by veronica ("I just realised I have a perfect part for you in "Terminator 4"....)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
If Jews had half the power these guys claim they do, I'd be beating the doors down to the synagogue, looking to convert

Your slip is showing. At least you finally admit to being a power monger. LOL

31 posted on 10/27/2003 12:19:43 PM PST by Protagoras (Hating Democrats doesn't make you a conservative.)
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To: SJackson
Exactly - you said it very well.
32 posted on 10/27/2003 12:21:05 PM PST by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: AppyPappy
Puh-lease. Most of them were posting on both sites already. LF has been anti-Jew since its inception

Pardon my saying so, but that's horseshit.

I was one of a half-dozen people that founded the place.

Not an anti-semite in the bunch.

Didn't have a lick of trouble with the skinheads until they got kicked off this site (and Jim pointed them in our direction).

Sorry, but that's how it was.

You guys dumped your trash in the well, and then bitch about the water quality.

33 posted on 10/27/2003 12:21:36 PM PST by OWK
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To: veronica
I haven't read much at Liberty Post but it seemed OK to me. As for Liberty Forum, I've never been there.
34 posted on 10/27/2003 12:23:08 PM PST by DumpsterDiver
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To: OWK
LF wasn't on the radar here until a few months back. I don't know how you got this idea that Jim issued links to everyone he booted. I found out about LF on LP. There were a bunch of Jew-haters who got sick of Neil and Goldi stomping their buzz so they all beat feet to LF.

I retract that LF is a anti-Jew site. It just has a lot of anti-Jews there.

35 posted on 10/27/2003 12:24:32 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Avoiding_Sulla
That is for the owner to decide i.e. through property rights.

Just as the owner of this web site tolerates calls for bombing civilians in Arab countries or folks who believe the United States is struck by natural disasters if the US slights Israel.

A free market place of ideas can be scary but I believe the cream always rises and the worst folks generally are not that talented or compelling.


36 posted on 10/27/2003 12:26:50 PM PST by JohnGalt (Attention Pseudocons: Wilsonianrepublic.com is still available)
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To: AppyPappy
LF wasn't on the radar here until a few months back.

It's been on the radar of banned FR folk for sometime. (and not accidentally)

I don't know how you got this idea that Jim issued links to everyone he booted.

Perhaps it was watching him actually do it.

I retract that LF is a anti-Jew site. It just has a lot of anti-Jews there.

Can't imagine why.

37 posted on 10/27/2003 12:28:12 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
Please don't use this thread to curse and slime Free Republic.
38 posted on 10/27/2003 12:28:24 PM PST by veronica ("I just realised I have a perfect part for you in "Terminator 4"....)
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To: SJackson
a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."
Come on these "fringe types" pass the same media as the main stream mass media - the difference is similar to soft porno and hardcore.
BTW, using Jews as scapegoats is an old tactic - used to by the common ancestors to start WWII (Chamberlain, Daladier, hitler & Co.)
39 posted on 10/27/2003 12:28:49 PM PST by Truth666
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To: OWK
Pardon my saying so, but that's horseshit.

I was one of a half-dozen people that founded the place.

Not an anti-semite in the bunch.

Didn't have a lick of trouble with the skinheads until they got kicked off this site (and Jim pointed them in our direction).

Sorry, but that's how it was.

You guys dumped your trash in the well, and then bitch about the water quality

Always playing the "persecuted" victim, don't you OWK. No wonder Libertarians are so cozy with the ACLU.

40 posted on 10/27/2003 12:29:02 PM PST by Dane
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To: Truth666
pass the same message, I mean ...
41 posted on 10/27/2003 12:29:57 PM PST by Truth666
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To: veronica
Please don't use this thread to curse and slime Free Republic.

Kiss butt somewhere else.. the grown-ups are talking here.

42 posted on 10/27/2003 12:31:00 PM PST by OWK
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To: Dane
Just stating the facts.
43 posted on 10/27/2003 12:31:42 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
Just stating the facts.

Oh my sides...

44 posted on 10/27/2003 12:32:32 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
Oh my sides...

Do a few sit-ups once in awhile.

45 posted on 10/27/2003 12:33:49 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
I thought the grown ups were talking.
46 posted on 10/27/2003 12:36:39 PM PST by L,TOWM (Liberals, The Other White Meat)
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To: OWK
< Ed MacMahon > Hohohohoho < /Ed MacMahon >
47 posted on 10/27/2003 12:36:54 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
< Ed MacMahon > Hohohohoho < /Ed MacMahon > ;^]
48 posted on 10/27/2003 12:37:42 PM PST by OWK
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To: OWK
Just stating the facts

Yeah, and the sky is also green.

49 posted on 10/27/2003 12:38:29 PM PST by Dane
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To: Dane
Well, you know if you can't take responsibility for yourself, it's quite easy to blame someone else, kind of like Hitler blaming the Jews for all of his woes.
50 posted on 10/27/2003 12:39:14 PM PST by Catspaw
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