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Two Americas: for how much longer can we prop-up the failed "Blue" America?
10/31/03

Posted on 10/31/2003 10:26:19 AM PST by pabianice

In reading other posts here on FR and in spending most of the day just reading (I'm a reporter), I am again struck how the US has split into two countries: "red" Bush America and "blue" Gore America. That's nit news. What's most compelling is how Bush America is increasingly having to prop-up the utterly failed Great Society/Gore America, and for just how much longer such a situation can exist.

Item: teacher disciplined for telling Mexican kids in her US class to stop disrupting the class (she's a "racist" for so doing). The other kids in the class continue to get no education and the Liberals think that's just fine -- for other kids. The LIberals opt out of the system by sending THIER kids to private schools.

Item: A conservative estimate puts as much as 35% of the American economy underground. Taxpayers are fed-up with having 50% or more of of their hard-earned pay taxed by the feds, the state, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. So peopledo the natural thing: opt out of the system by going cash-only, off the books.

Item: the blue states lead in victim disarmament, where the law-abiding are denied the constitutional right to self-defense while the Liberals turn a blind eye at violence from career criminals ("poor victims of a racist system"). Liberals make sure they live in guarded, gated communities, and never have to set foot in any scruffy areas as they drive their SUVs from gated home to gated office building. Others who can, opt out by leaving such areas for places where they can carry concealed if they wish and where criminals know they are likely to be shot.

Item: International embarrassments like Ted Kennedy give long, boozy speeches about the evils of President Bush while his devotees urinate themselves in the glow of their self-righteousness. Others simply ignore such crap and tune-into talk radio.

Item: "Blue" America is financially bankrupt, and California is a glaring example. "Blue" America has degenerated into a coven of grasping, mentally diminished, selfish, thuggish special interest groups who have become increasingly violent in fighting over what is left of the Big City Democratic machines that have run things for the past 150 years. The "blue" islands on the 2000 map can best be described as cancers on the national MRI -- blighted areas of malignant, imploding selfishness that are trying to spread across the entire national body. And the "red" nation has to keep paying for it.

I have to wonder how much longer this will be the case. The defacto separation of "red" and "blue" has already occurred, and is fat too profound to be fixed by any social "bussing." At what point does the whole scheme collapse? And how is this going to be expressed and dealt with in the coming 2004 elections?


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bluezone; cwii; freestateproject; fsp; nh; porcupines; redvsblue; redzone
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To: agarrett
Still, it is interesting that the more liberal states, the ones we like to make fun of, tend to also generate more money.

Could be because those areas (esp. on a county-by-county basis) tend to be more densely populated, i.e. cities and other heavily developed areas, than the areas that voted for GWB in 2000. More people=more money in a raw sense. Why do those urban areas tend to be more liberal? Simply put, they're denser, and rely more on government regulations & services.

It makes the picture slightly more complex than you presented above.

< sarcasm > Fool! You think this isn't necessarily a black-and-white issue? You must be a Communist or DU disruptor or something!< /sarcasm>

Snidely

41 posted on 10/31/2003 11:48:45 AM PST by Snidely Whiplash
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To: reed_inthe_wind
For instance, farm subsidies benefit any one who eats food.

True enough. Other subsidies have benefits as well - roads subsidies benefit anyone who travels; educational subsidies benefit...somebody, I'm sure; Medicare and Medicaid benefit the health-care industry and those who are able to receive medical attention as a result; and tax credits (effectively subsidies) benefit small business owners, parents, and anyone who gets a college education, to name a few.

It's all really a matter of perspective, innit? Or is it?

Snidely

42 posted on 10/31/2003 11:54:43 AM PST by Snidely Whiplash
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To: reed_inthe_wind
Also, all of those wonderful federal parks, federal highways, federal dams, and other big federal projects built throughout the mid-West and West give me very little payback (other than the ability to see nice scenery when I vacation). Factor in the cost of living (those dollars are worth more in New Mexico than they are in New Jersey), the side benefits (relatively cheap hydroelectric power), the lower levels of social problems, and simply the sheer volume of tax dollars the New Jersey sends to DC and you'll be hard pressed to show that New Jersey is reaping benefits comparable to the loss. I know that a lot of Freepers have a preconceived notion that the "blue" states are a net liability but it just isn't so in most cases (with a large exception being DC, itself).
43 posted on 10/31/2003 11:55:40 AM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: archy
Another step in that direction everyday.
44 posted on 10/31/2003 11:56:40 AM PST by Eaker (Amateurs built the Ark, professionals built the Titanic.............hmmmmmmmmm ;<)
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To: So Cal Rocket
Almost every dollar the US Government spends, whether it's a direct payment to an individual through a subsidy program, to build an interstate highway, or to pay some bureaucrat's salary is spent in some state. (Foriegn aid is an exception.)

Even a lot of "foreign aid" is spent here in the USA--much of it comes with a proviso that it is to be used for goods and services produced here.

45 posted on 10/31/2003 11:59:04 AM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Question_Assumptions
Well I'd like to see the detailed math. The US Army is not the same as block grants for welfare is not the same as the Los Alamos labs is not the same as building nuclear submarines is not the same as having lots of retired people collecting social security. One only has to live in a place like NY to know that huge numbers of unproductive citizens are living off the fat of the land. I don't think you can say this about places like Wyoming. So before I give any weight to supposed "69c out of every $1" I'd like to see (and contemplate) the breakdown.
46 posted on 10/31/2003 11:59:36 AM PST by Jack Black
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: DoctorMichael
Who is John Galt? I have no idea. I see this pop up from time to time. It's some kinda inside joke. Could you please explain it to me, and others who didn't attend the party where the joke originated.
48 posted on 10/31/2003 12:02:44 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: DoctorMichael
Who is John Galt? I have no idea. I see this pop up from time to time. It's some kinda inside joke. Could you please explain it to me, and others who didn't attend the party where the joke originated.
49 posted on 10/31/2003 12:02:45 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: Question_Assumptions
The link in Post 39 is broken.
50 posted on 10/31/2003 12:03:30 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: Reeses
It used to be the Democrats were red like their communist and socialist cousins, and Republicans were the blue team. The leftist media hijacked our color saying they're giving blue to the incumbents. Bush is the incumbent now and I would like our color back!

That's what I have been saying for a long time. Commies are red bump!

51 posted on 10/31/2003 12:04:41 PM PST by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: All
My guesses for why the blue states make more money than the red states:

1) At some point their blue legislatures stuck in significantly higher local and state taxes. This increases the cost of production, therefore retail prices rise to compensate, therefore wages increase to get enough workers who can afford the prices, blah blah blah. Net result - higher cost of living, and higher wages. Fact is, the blue states pay twice as much for everything, and earn almost twice as much as workers in the red states. They're two different economies, one much more inflated than the other due to local taxes. But "progressive" tax rates bite the guy in NY a hell of a lot harder than the guy in the south.

2) Along the same lines: Assume people prefer to live outside of cities than in cities. I think this is true, all other things being equal. But the cities are also where the big corporations are. What do employers need to do to make employees deal with the smog, long commutes, etc.? Pay them more. Blue states have a higher urban to rural ratio, therefore, once again, their citizens are paid higher, deal with a higher cost of living, and pay unfairly higher "progressive" federal taxes for the same basic services.

3) Do the dollars sent in and out of a state include corporate taxes as well as income tax? If so, factor them in - I would guess they pay a great deal in taxes but don't require much additional infrastrucure compared to each individual taxpayer.

4) I would guess that most of the military spending is going to be in the red states, with the HUUUUUGE... tracts of land.

5) Outrageously oversized farming subsidies.

Just my guesses.

Qwinn
52 posted on 10/31/2003 12:08:00 PM PST by Qwinn
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
This next round they will pull out all the stops. The hate and lies and vote fraud will be unprecedented.

Bears repeating. 2004 will be the ugliest meanest political year in the history of the Republic. Just look at the rhetoric spouted in the 'debates' so far.
53 posted on 10/31/2003 12:11:01 PM PST by Rummyfan
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To: Jack Black
D.C. is the worst. $5.00 in for every $1.00 out.
54 posted on 10/31/2003 12:12:24 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
ATLAS SHRUGGED
55 posted on 10/31/2003 12:12:43 PM PST by Rummyfan
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To: archy; pabianice
Just an off the cuff ( and probably off the wall ) comment?

I have long wished we could split America in two-- one nation of "Just let me aloners" and the other of "I want the government to be my Mom & Daddy..."

Unfortunately, the latter require the money and labor of the former, so it would never stand for long.

56 posted on 10/31/2003 12:16:55 PM PST by backhoe (My guns guard your Freedoms...)
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To: Jack Black
So before I give any weight to supposed "69c out of every $1" I'd like to see (and contemplate) the breakdown.

Do the research yourself or pay me a consulting fee to do it for you. There is only so much research I'll do for free.

Yes, you can argue that dollars are not equal but bear in mind that New Jersey does have military facilities as well (Fort Monmouth, Earl, Picatinny, McGuire, as well as federal employees in various agencies). And a heck of a lot of welfare gets sent into the "red" states. I know this is counter-intuitive for many Freepers but it really isn't difficult to understand. It's all about income.

If you look at average Median incomes (for example, here), you'll see an average income in Kentucky of $39,300 but $63,800 in New Jersey. New Jersey has about 8.6 million people while Kentucky has only about 4 million. Now, consider that the tax brackets for Federal income tax are not indexed for the cost of living. That means that fewer of those 4 million Kentuckians are even paying taxes. They are paying less in taxes. And there are less of them paying it. This is so obvious for conservatives when it comes to explaining why the poor didn't get a tax cut.

Poor people pay less in taxes. The people in the rural South, rural Midwest, and rural West are poorer than the people on the coast and in the cities. There are fewer of them in the same physical area. It is more expensive to do things like build roads, sewers, or electrical and phone lines and it takes longer to visit each person because each person is father apart (this is where the rural "Baby Bell" USWest got screwwed). Put it all together. This isn't that difficult to see once you stop assuming that rural living is cheap. Ask USWest/Qwest how cheap it is running a rural utility compared to an urban utility.

57 posted on 10/31/2003 12:21:27 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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To: Question_Assumptions
Should I assume that since you don't seem to be troubled by redistribution that you aren't troubled by going into debt to play Santa Claus?

Oh, I'm very troubled by the by the debt being incurred by the US Government and all the State Governments and local municipalities. In my mind the ONLY programs that should be funded by debt are those for which the benefits accrue over a period of time (i.e., roads, dams, buildings). You should never go into debt to meet recurring expenditures.

I personally only use debt financing on things that for which I will derive a benefit on over time (home, second house, car). I never use debt to finance my recurring expenditures (groceries, electricity, Santa Claus). If only the Government would manage their money the same way.

58 posted on 10/31/2003 12:21:46 PM PST by So Cal Rocket
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To: dead
You're addressing a different issue. My point is that we should not bail them out when they mismanage. I was not criticizing them because they don't send enough to Washington. By analogy, I would not want the federal government to bail out a billionaire if he got into financial trouble. That's not the same as criticizing him because of how much he pays in taxes.
59 posted on 10/31/2003 12:25:50 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: Jack Black
Try this or this

They are PDFs. I couldn't find an HTML version quickly, though you can Google search the links and probably see an HTML version that way.

60 posted on 10/31/2003 12:26:17 PM PST by Question_Assumptions
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