[Michael Barnes]

Some interesting stuff. Throw some multi-verse in there, then we'll be cooking like Level III's...

[LiteKeeper]

YEC INTREP

[sourcery]

	Summoning the usual suspects...
"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger!"

[Ronin]

Interesting read.

Bump.

[Congressman Billybob]

The premise of Carl Sagon is that there must be advanced civilizations in the universe, because there are "billions and billions" of stars. Some of those billions have planets capable of supporting life on the carbon cycle, the nitrogen cycle, or some other cycle. And some of those billions of planets have been stable for millions of years longer than our relatively new Earth.

However, Henrico Fermi pointed out the flaw in this argument, half a century ago. He said to take as a given all that predecessors of Sagan were saying decades ago. If all that is true, these greater civilizations would have already spread throughout the Universe. Fermi asked, simply, "Why aren't they here?"

The only logical way to reconcile Sagan's math with Fermi's observation is the Mead principle (also found in the Federation's constitution), the principle of "non-interference." The conclusion that higher civilizations have already found us, concluded that we are a Type 0 civilization, and have chosen to leave us alone until the millenia have passed and we have become a glatactically-civilized civilization. That makes sense to me.

Congressman Billybob

Latest column, "Open Judicial Mouth, Insert Foot," discussion thread. IF YOU WANT A FREEPER IN CONGRESS, CLICK HERE.

[sourcery]

"Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle, and quick to anger!"

Staring into the Singularity

[Not now, Not ever!]

Bump, Bttt, as a bookmark

[Physicist]

For example, the ultimate measure of a rockets capability is measured by something called “specific impulse” (defined as the product of the thrust and the duration, measured in units of seconds).

So thrust is unitless?

Specific impulse is the integrated thrust for a given amount of fuel (which is force times duration), divided by the weight of that amount of fuel on the surface of the Earth (which is mass times the acceleration due to gravity).

[mrsmith]

The idea that we'd run away from a supernova instead of "re-engineering" the sun never made sense to me- why assume we will never be able to do something we already can nearly conceptualize.

The same with the end of the universe scenario. Why postulate that man will not be there at the end and have the ability to determine what happens? Maybe to force another "big bang" if that is the way to save the universe.

[sleepy_hollow]

Interesting speculation, but I agree with Fermi and BillyBob. If Sagan was even close to correct, we'd have seen them by now. A jupiter sized planet is not particularly hospitable to life as far as we can tell so far. I am all for exploring space, don't get me wrong, but I just don't think we will find any life.

One interesting logical flaw in the "non-interference" theory (the one that says the aliens have found us but have left us alone for awhile) is that it is basically saying the absence of evidence is evidence. The fact that we have not seen aliens means they are there (or might be there) but are not showing themselves. This is extremely problematic from an epistemological perspective. That is, we can never know if it is true or not as long as the aliens decide to refrain from contact. It's basically useless and an intellectual dead end.

Finally, exploring space is fine for its own sake as far as I am concerned. But, when the goofy people start their fantasy stuff it really creeps me out personally. They go overboard beyond the realm of facts and science into this weirdo land that just does not make sense. What business case or scientific curiosity case could ever be made for these Von Neumann probes? Where would anyone ever get the capital to develop these? Who would ever invest such enormous sums? Look how absurd this is when compared to what little has been accomplished with the space station and how much has been spent on it.

I think separating fantasy (not dreams) from reality is key to making any progress. Otherwise we are simply fooling ourselves and will never get anywhere in space. It will be costly. People will die. And we should go anyway because it's there to be explored. Beyond that, we will see what we will see.

[Liberal Classic]

If a Von Neumann probe only finds evidence of primitive life (such as an unstable, savage Type 0 civilization) they might simply lie dormant on the moon, silently waiting for the Type 0 civilization to evolve into a stable Type I civilization. After waiting quietly for several millennia, they may be activated when the emerging Type I civilization is advanced enough to set up a lunar colony. Physicist Paul Davies of the University of Adelaide has even raised the possibility of a Von Neumann probe resting on our own moon, left over from a previous visitation in our system aeons ago.

(If this sounds a bit familiar, that's because it was the basis of the film, 2001. Originally, Stanley Kubrick began the film with a series of scientists explaining how probes like these would be the most efficient method of exploring outer space. Unfortunately, at the last minute, Kubrick cut the opening segment from his film, and these monoliths became almost mystical entities)

[SengirV]

Today, every few weeks brings news of a new Jupiter-sized extra-solar planet being discovered, the latest being about 15 light years away orbiting around the star Gliese 876. The most spectacular of these findings was photographed by the Hubble Space Telescope, which captured breathtaking photos of a planet 450 light years away being sling-shot into space by a double-star system.

This was proven to be an unrelated star/brown drawf/etc... in the same field of view. I wonder how much other info is wrong in this article.

[Hegewisch Dupa]

bttt

[kidd]

But already, we can see the seeds of a Type I civilization. We see the beginning of ... a planetary economy (the forging of the European Union)...

The author views socialism and globalization as an advancement. There will be no advancement without an incentice for advancement. Socialism removes or significantly hinders that incentive.

[Consort]

“...All the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius,...."

In other words, getting rid of the deadwood.

[biblewonk]

"What if D-O-G spelled cat?" revenge of the Nerds.

[Consort]

What does it mean for a civilization to be a million years old?

An all-pervasive AARP.

[GeekDejure]

It will be a pitiful sight: any civilization which survives will be desperately huddled next to the dying embers of fading neutron stars and black holes.

It's always darkest before dawn, so if you're going to steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it !!! ;-))

.

[onedoug]

I'd ask 'em if they perceived of God, too.

[aculeus]

Horse hockey. Anyone who insists a la the arm-waving Carl Sagan that there must be extraterrestrial intelligent life hasn't thought about life on Earth with sufficient rigor.

Brain cells exist on Earth only in Bilaterian animals creatures that came into existence only once. Not a single brain cell exists in other sexually-reproducing multicells, not in plants, sponges or jellyfish.

Life elsewhere? Sure, why not? But intelligent life elsewhere is about as likely as the future emergence of intelligent Earth-bound plants.

[RightWhale]

we'll be cooking like Level III's

Not with the burden of the neo-Luddites hanging around our necks. We're going nowhere whether there are civilizations out there or not. No kidding, they worry that we will spread our thought pollution to outer space given a chance.