1-shot killer

Army Times ^ | November 24, 2003 | John G. Roos

[archy]

Ben Thomas and three colleagues were driving north out of Baghdad in an SUV on a clear mid-September morning, headed down a dirt road into a rural village, when gunmen in several surrounding buildings opened fire on them.

In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.

[Paladin2b]

Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government

Anyone know which PMCs (Private Military Companies, aka mercs) have been awarded contracts in Iraq? I'm guessing MPRI, I'm just wondering if there might be others.

[Shooter 2.5]

Apples and oranges.

The 5.56 MM family works great at 300 yards or less.

If anything, I think Defense Department has to stop the idea of having only one service rifle. I suggest we have two or even three that would be issued according to the environment our guys have to occupy.

[Dead Corpse]

Veddy inderestink.

Anyone else find the following line morbidly funny?
He said he feels qualified to assess a bullet?s effects, having trained as a special-operations medic and having shot people with various types of ammo,...

FWIW, "blended" metals would have some radically different expansion rates than regular clad or hollowpoint bullets. Think of it as the differnce between putting your hands together flat, palm to palm, and slidding them. Versus interlocking your fingers and doing the same.

Whether this would be enough to account for the radical expansion noted in the article, I don't know. My guess would be "maybe". It'd definately be different from other regular frangible rounds.

[Lurker]

They used to do that, but it was a Quartermasters nightmare.

They like things nice and simple. If they had their way, every individual weapon would be 5.56.

L

[Lurker]

OK, so what does a box of .45 ACP or .308 cost?

So much cool ammo, so little money. You're killing me here archy....

L

[Armedanddangerous]

This sounds like a Glaser Safety Slug or a Mag-Safe to me. These have been around for a while. I've kept a 357 magnum loaded with Glasers for a long time.

[harpseal]

A few years back the Arcane round of a copper beryllium alloy was out and in 9mm it could penetrate threat level IIIA armor while still providing very great tissue disruption. The round is no longer legally importable. Now the question is what is the actual performance of this round? What will it do to a target after going through several layers of Kevlar? It seems to do the job in 5.56mm and from what you say it also has some impressive performance in 9mm. I am wondering about .45acp?

I have not yet had a chance to play with this ammunition yet but I may order some to do my own tests on wet phone books etc. I shall be following this closely.

[expatpat]

Do we want our guys hit with these rounds? Hell, no.

[archy]

Now the question is what is the actual performance of this round? What will it do to a target after going through several layers of Kevlar?

Essentially, it's the very result of having to go through several layers of Kevlar that creates the friction necessary for the bullet to remain intact and penetrate deeply, following which it then seperates in material providing far less resistance. But we have a pretty good idea of what it doies thereafter.

[harpseal]

Defintely will have to get some of these for CWII. I really like the energy numbers on the .45acp.

[archy]

I have not yet had a chance to play with this ammunition yet but I may order some to do my own tests on wet phone books etc. I shall be following this closely.

Exactly my intention for posting this info, and I look forward very much to hearing of anyof your results, either on wet phone books or any other test giving us any ideas as to how this new development may perform, or in more practical applications, even if those applications are anectdotal and speculative.

Perhaps the most interesting application is in short-barrelled carbines like the M4 and new XM8, in which the standard M193 and M855 5,56mm ammunition, intended for use in the 20-inch barrels of the M16A1 and M16A2 rifles respectively, have understandably not performed as well as desired at the smaller velocities developed therein. I've always preferred the 5,56mm round in a full-length rifle rather than the shorties, but the new ammo could cause me to reevaluate that preference. Of course, the result in an even longer barrelled M16A1/A2 or RPK might be even more spectacular.

-archy-/-

[Travis McGee]

Ya think so huh? LOL.

[ijcr]

New technological developments in body armor and individual
protection, such as kevlar and other light-weight ceramic and composite armor, may soon defeat the penetration capability of the small 5.56mm SS109 projectile.
For example, the new Soviet 5.45 x 39mm ammunition cannot now penetrate a relatively light 5.8 pound flak jacket composed of Kevlar and a 4.8mm (.19 inch)sheet of hardened steel plate, even at point blank range. The .223 SS109 however, with its steel penetrator still has this capability (but only below 6 mtrs about 21 ft).
Personal protection has overtaken the ability of the 5.56mm
to provide an effective round capable of delivering adequate penetration.
There will come a day when our troops will encounter an enemy with body armor...(as did the LAPD in 1997) then apples and oranges will become blood and guts.
Our soldiers deserve the best and the 5.56mm ain't it.

[harpseal]

I think I shall try the ammunition on some coyotes out of a short barreled AR15. I shall also try the .45acp on some of these varmints. I will let you know of any results.

[Charles Martel]

I swear from here to the Great Pumpkin on High that I was aiming for center of mass....

Heck, that might've *been* center of mass, depending on the position of the target (head down, running for cover). The ol' 5.56mm enema - most unpleasant. Even the SS109 ammo might've performed similarly, if the bullet passed through heavy muscle and maybe glanced off the pelvic bone. Get the bullet tumbling and it'll make a mess, no frangible design needed.

[archy]

I swear from here to the Great Pumpkin on High that I was aiming for center of mass....

Heck, that might've *been* center of mass, depending on the position of the target (head down, running for cover). The ol' 5.56mm enema - most unpleasant. Even the SS109 ammo might've performed similarly, if the bullet passed through heavy muscle and maybe glanced off the pelvic bone. Get the bullet tumbling and it'll make a mess, no frangible design needed.

Ah. That, then would be a hit well-described as *Center of a$$*?

A similar hit from a Soviet 5,45mm AK74 round would seem to be equally or even more spectacularly unpleasant.

-archy-/-

[archy]

"As to the wog popped in the butt at short range"

are you aware that "wog" is a racist term equivilant to ni@#er?

Or so some Wogs claim. Among the British troops of the British Army of the Rhein and the Gurkhas with which I've been acquainted, they've also applied it to Frenchmen, e.g. *Wogs starts at Calais.*

So long as the communist-inspired and professional race-baiters and imps continue to whine about such things while describing the Confederate flag as *an American swastika* I find the term at least as eminently suitable as *Neo-Confederate,* *Neo-conservative* or *Neo-newsboy*.

[archy]

>>As to the gel/temp dispute. I suspect that at warmer tempratures the gel would be too soft and not match the averaged behaviour of human muscle/organs. The temp shouldn't effect the behavior of the bullet as the contact time is so small.

As someone with a strong thermodynamics / heat transfer / fluid mechanics background, I agree wholeheartedly with your reasoning and comments here.

Agreed, though it should be noted that results with the .30 M1 carbine in the Pacific by Marines and Navy personnel was generally favorable, and was found at least as suitable for such purposes by those of the British Eighth Army's *Desert Rats* recon units who could scrounge a carbine, considered preferable to any 9mm or .45 machinepistol available from the inventory of either side. Likewise the Brits in postwar Malaya and Kenya found the carbine and it's ammo quite okay, as did the French in Indo-China, followed by many US advisors, ROKs and Vietnamese and other US troops there, including Air America flight crews and spooks who could carry anything they liked.

On the other hand, the American paratroopers at the Battle of the Bulge found that the carbine was ineffectual, as did the Marines at the Chosin Reservoir and Pork Chop Hill determined. The effect may be related to heavy winter clothing, the effect of cold weather on the human vascular system or both and other factors, but shouldn't be dismissed- and should be considered carefully in light of similar observations about the M4 carbine's effectiveness in a warm place.

My own backround is more in the internal ballistics field rather than thermodynamics / heat transfer / fluid mechanics or terminal ballistic effect, but it still gives me enough of an interest to observe such factors and resulting arguments with both a sceptical eye and continuing curiousity. And an occasional opportunity to put the resulting theories into practice.

-archy-/-