Kids thrive on discipline

Tucson Arizona Star ^ | 01/03/04 | Betsy Hart

[Holly_P]

Is the parenting culture poised to come to its collective senses in the new year? Well, probably not. But at least common sense is getting some attention in some quarters.

In the article "Are You a Parent or a Pushover?" in the January issue of Parents magazine, author Kellye Carter Crocker reported on a Parents survey that showed most mothers expressing "deep concern over today's discipline methods."

For starters, 88 percent said parents "let children get away with too much."

Magazine surveys may be notoriously inaccurate, but still this reveals some level of angst over how kids are being raised.

As Crocker wrote, parents may be "sensing what mounting evidence is starting to reveal: Some of the discipline strategies that have been in vogue in recent years just aren't working."

"Elaborate systems that give kids multiple chances, prolonged discussions about the 'feelings' behind bad behavior, negotiations about consequences and so on are often ineffective."

Well, excuse me, but, um, "duh."

Time magazine, in its Dec. 15 edition, ran a compelling piece titled, "Does Kindergarten Need Cops?" It was subtitled, tellingly, "The Youngest School Kids are Acting Out in Really Outrageous Ways. Why?"

As the authors, led by Claudia Wallis, put it, "Temper tantrums are nothing new in kindergarten and first grade, but the behavior of one little 6-year-old in Fort Worth, Texas, had even the most experienced staff members running for cover."

"Asked to put a toy away, the youngster began to scream. Told to calm down, she knocked over her desk and crawled under the teacher's desk, kicking it and dumping out the contents of the drawers. Then … she began hurling books at her terrified classmates, who had to be ushered from the room to safety."

A child with "oppositional defiant disorder"? Well, no. As Time revealed, this kind of outrageous behavior is escalating dramatically among so-called normal, healthy, middle-class kids, like this one.

Time reported the child-advocacy group Partnership for Children just completed a survey of child care centers, elementary schools and pediatricians throughout the Fort Worth area.

It showed 93 percent of 39 schools responding said kindergartners today "have more emotional and behavioral problems than were seen just five years ago." A majority of day-care centers, which host the tiniest tots, revealed that "incidents of rage and anger" have increased over the past three years.

Ronald Stephens, director of the National School Safety Center in Westlake Village, Calif., said this is true across the country. He told Time, "Violence is getting younger and younger."

Time cited such problems as "economic stress," though youngsters have lived through far more stressful times without 3-year-olds stabbing classmates with forks, as the authors describe one tyke doing.

Time suggested there may be too much time in child care, a politically incorrect but at least sane observation, and the authors looked to academic pressure, though it's helpful to note that's waxed and waned for a century.

The authors largely blamed violence in the media. Well, OK. But then why do many kids who see the same images not act this way, and how is it then that adult criminal activity has been on a significant downward spiral for years?

What the Time authors didn't do is give anything more than a glancing nod to parents and how they raise their kids.

Talk about a root cause.

As Ronald Simons, a sociologist at the University of Georgia in Athens, told Parents: "Without structure, children become self-absorbed, selfish and unhappy - and they make everyone around them miserable, too."

He cited studies that show kids raised by authoritative parents, meaning loving moms and dads who set firm limits and stick to them, "excel academically, develop better social skills, feel good about themselves and are happier overall" than peers raised by lax or excessively harsh parents.

Interestingly, Simons echoed other research that finds the longer the child behaves poorly the more permissive parents become, setting in place a terrible cycle that ends - who knows where? With a healthy 6-year-old attacking her teacher?

I call it a modern-day commitment to the "cult of the always-contented child." We parents are committed to our own pleasure and to the constant pleasure of our kids, too.

We worry they won't like us if we give them anything less. Tragically, we don't worry about the consequences of sending them down such a self-destructive path.

In more technical terms, Simons told Parents, "There's an (unfortunate) fear that it's traumatic for a child to be disciplined and to hear 'no' too often."

Ah, a slim ray of common-sense advice on parenting. 2004 may already be looking up.

[grania]

And wacking a two year old on the butt, teaches him that hitting is a proper behavior. So when Johnny is frustrated, he hauls off and wacks his playmate.

Who said anything about hitting children? I'm talking accountability here. If a child talks rudely to someone, he/she should write an apology, talk about it with parents, then go to the person and apologize verbally while delivering it. Take away a video game or a half hour of TV to do the writing and thinking. A child makes a mess, clean up that mess plus something else. No "time outs" with this type of discipline. Time is filled with constructive behavior.

For a small child's mind, isolation works well. If it doesn't work, explain "prison".

Isolation without accomplishing something should never be used as a punishment. That teaches that individuality and the ability to be somebody and accomplish something without the group is undesirable. Society just does not need more people who think the worst punishment there is to not constantly be surrounded by the group.

What children (and adults) need to learn is accountability. In no way does "time out" achieve that.

[Gabz]

I'm so sorry I missed your ping to this.

I'm in complete agreement with Net, and will defer any further comments in the face of her obvious grasp of the situation.

However I will say I nearly jumped in and said something to the other poster - however I thought better of it.

[netmilsmom]

>>B$!!!! It teaches there are Negative CONSEQUENCES for that specific behavior. Just like touching a hot stove does. My ass was spanked as a child and I NEVER EVER thought wacking a classmate was *okay*, unless the classmate was about to wack me 1st, of course. <<

Unless your mother is sitting next to you, you are not speaking about when you were two.
I hope you read my other posts and see that I am not against spanking, have used this method with my children but feel it is a last resort. In my home, this method works well and all children are different.
When I isolate my child, it IS a punishment. They are in love with each other (thank you God and I know this will change), so to take one away from the other, it is horrible.

What worked for you and yours may not work for me and mine. Consistancy is the key. A pop on the butt of a two year old, is needed at the appropriate time. However I have seen parents get their frustrations out by wacking their child. When the child then turns and wacks a playmate, they are horrified. What was the example they have shown?

[netmilsmom]

Let me explain how the "time out" process works in my house.
My three year old cries about not getting her way. I tell her that if she cannot play well with her sister, she will have to find something else to do. She then continues the crying. I tell her that I know that she is angry but she cannot find a way to work it out with her sister and continue to cry, she will go to her room until she stops. If she will not stop, I lead her to her room and remind her again that she can come out when she stops. I then time 1 minute per year and go in. We talk it over and by then she has stopped. She then must apologize to her sister. She did not get her way, she learned that if she act inappropriately, she cannot stay with the group and that although she is allowed her emotions, we expect one to act a certain way with other people.

Is this what you are talking about?

[netmilsmom]

Hi!
Thanks Lady! but we always love to hear from you!

[netmilsmom]

>>***waving from Texas***<<

***waving back from Michigan***
I envy you, we are freezing.
The main thing I gathered from your post is that your attitude is the same as mine. Spanking is not your first line of defense.

[Gabz]

LOL!!!

I missed the ping because of the FReepathon - my comments page fills up fast!!

As much as I love my daughter and being with her and doing things with her - I was extremely happy to see that school bus Monday morning!

[netmilsmom]

You know, that is the difference between one child and two.
I dreaded seeing my daughter leave in the morning. We actually started homeschooling on Monday. Right now, the six year old is reading to the three year old and life is good!

[Gabz]

Most of the 2 week Christmas break was spent with my 5yo reading to mommy and daddy!

The biggest drawback to living out in the country is no neighbors and no other kids around for her to play with. and I have not exactly had much luck in getting to know any of the parents of the other kids in her classes.

She was also looking forward to going back, besides seeing all her friends, she likes the structure and routine, which was a little more difficult to maintain around here for those 2 weeks.

[MEGoody]

Way back when, if a kid misbehaved in school, the teacher could paddle him/her. Then the parent was informed of what happened, and the kid got worse at home.

In those days, the worst problems were chewing gum and whispering during class.

[MEGoody]

"And wacking a two year old on the butt, teaches him that hitting is a proper behavior."

Way back when, kids were spanked and no one thought much about it. There was no huge problem with kids hitting each other. Now that parents are all nice, warm and fuzzy with their kids, we have much more violence in schools.

Clearly, nothing wrong with paddling. (Of course, it can be overdone, as anything can be.)

[MEGoody]

Sounds like you have a balanced approach. Good job, mom!

[Annie03]

bump for later

[TheStickman]

*Unless your mother is sitting next to you, you are not speaking about when you were two. *

My mother has told me time and again of the things I did and was swatted on the ass for at age 2. So I gotta disagree with ya there as well.

*What worked for you and yours may not work for me and mine. Consistancy is the key. A pop on the butt of a two year old, is needed at the appropriate time*

I agree completely.

*However I have seen parents get their frustrations out by wacking their child.*

Same here and it's always tough for me to keep my big mouth shut when I see that take place.

*When the child then turns and wacks a playmate, they are horrified. What was the example they have shown?*

That has WAY WAY WAY more to do with what they are learning from their peers than it does from the swat on the butt their parents give them...UNLESS...the parents are beating the child instead of spanking them. Beatings are abusive (up to the age of 15 hehehe after that they can be a matter of survival!). Then, you're spot on.

[netmilsmom]

>>The biggest drawback to living out in the country is no neighbors and no other kids around for her to play with. and I have not exactly had much luck in getting to know any of the parents of the other kids in her classes<<

Oh you bet!
We are in a suburb with very few kids. If it wasn't for having two children, I could never do this.

[netmilsmom]

>>Clearly, nothing wrong with paddling. (Of course, it can be overdone, as anything can be.)<<

I do so agree with that! And consistancy. If one lets a child do something wrong and do not follow (most times - we are human after all) up on that, children push the envelope.

[netmilsmom]

>>*However I have seen parents get their frustrations out by wacking their child.*

Same here and it's always tough for me to keep my big mouth shut when I see that take place.

*When the child then turns and wacks a playmate, they are horrified. What was the example they have shown?*

That has WAY WAY WAY more to do with what they are learning from their peers than it does from the swat on the butt their parents give them...UNLESS...the parents are beating the child instead of spanking them. Beatings are abusive (up to the age of 15 hehehe after that they can be a matter of survival!). Then, you're spot on.<<

We are on the exact same page!
I have had parents tell me that when my three year old is throwing a three year old tantrum to just wack her on the butt. Honestly, although I'd like to give her a good one, it will not help with my child. However, if I walk away (and I am not talking in the grocery store - then I leave the cart and take her to the car. No one should have to deal with my child being a brat) and tell her that she must stop that behavior or I do not want to see her, she stops. If I smack her at that point, she just gets louder.

Now I do have to say that my girls are young yet. Preteens and teens are like being pecked to death by a duck. Ooooo I can't wait, not.

[grania]

I disagree with the whole concept of time alone being a punishment. Your three year old should have building sets, crayons and paper, dolls, etc., and should consider it an opportunity to pursue independent interests in her room. Instead, you're treating it as a punishment.

A better thing might be to have her sit alone and watch the children who play appropriately do so.

Are you saying a 3-year old's "punishment" is 3 minutes alone?

It's a generational thing, I guess. I always made sure that there were enough independent and creative activities so kids who didn't want to play well with others had something constructive to do. I don't see why kids should have to play with others when they'd rather not do so.

[netmilsmom]

>>A better thing might be to have her sit alone and watch the children who play appropriately do so<<

THAT is a classic "time out" in a chair and does not work in my house.
Different strokes I guess.
Before we started to homeschool, my three year old played by herself (or with me when I was not doing household things) for six hours a day. She is very good at it.

There is a major difference between chosing to be alone and being isolated from the rest of us until behavior improves.

[Palladin]

You make a very good point, Princess.