Senate majority leader confident immigration reform will be approved

AP ^ | January 7, 2004

[philetus]

There is no difference between them any more.

[glowworm]

Many farms would be still around if they received a decent price for their crops and livestock. Citys and city people want cheap food.. yep! and they vote to take it at the expense of the farmers and ranchers who produce it..

Many things city dwellers get, at a cheap price, are at the expense of the producers by Government Decree.. With the advent of the communication age, large citys tend to be less and less relative to US society and a magnetic place to heavily absorb a lot of the GNP. (From a "Rust Belt" city).

[deport]

Thanks.... as it has at least some thought and effort put into trying to make sense of the situation at this point.... You did a good job of pulling some points together

[philetus]

Soon all the politicians will be called national, regional,state, county, and city mid-north- central NAFTA zone overseers.

[madprof98]

Don't you mean "illegal aliens"? Or are you just being PC with us?

No, it's really hatred directed at immigrants. I recall a thread a long while back where I talked about some friends who are legal immigrants from West Africa. I got back the very same kind of sarcasm and invective that I read repeatedly in the posts today. Legal or illegal really has nothing to do with it; it's just Nativism updated and colored "conservative."

[deport]

On principal I'd like to see all illegals rounded up and deported tomorrow but practically thinking that can't happen and would cause economic problems. No matter what we do with the current illegals if we do not seal the border and deport all future illegals we are fools.

---

You make a good point..... If this proposal would put the penalities on employers of illegals in sufficient amounts that it would encourage the employers to hire only the legal workers then we are making progress..... Then you begin to cut into the illegals as they won't have a job here to come to. If you could enforce the work place [employers] such that it isn't economical for them to hire illegals then the problem will diminish substantially, imo. But all this is a long slow process.... It didn't get this way overnight and it won't be changed/solved overnight either.

[RightWinger]

Right you are.

Call, write & e-mail your senators & representatives.

[AAABEST]

Why is that bad?

You honestly can't answer that for yourself? You're insulting yourself.

DG, it's bad because it's illegal and wrong and turns our country into a nation of men instead of a nation of laws. We simply can't pick and choose which laws we want to enforce.

You're going to sit there and tell me that you're unaware of the damage this is doing to our healthcare, education and social systems? I just don't buy it knowing that you've heard all the same arguements I have.

When I was a kid (not really all that long ago) a high school dropout could take a job swinging a hammer to support himself. Those days are gone.

I'm paying enough, I don't feel like paying for any more leeches on our system. It's bad enough that we pay for American leeches, much less foreign ones. Much of the violent crime in my area is perpetrated by illegals.

The "market" didn't demand a lawless system, people just realized they could get away with it. Americans always did these jobs and it's incredibly elitist to suggest that only 3rd world Mexicans are suited for such. I would clean a toilet in one second (and have) if I had to.

I reject the argument that we have to break the system more because we have an already broken system. The answer is to enforce the damn law, not to throw our hands up and devolve.

I could go on and on explaining how this is "bad", but as I stated, I shouldn't have to with someone such as yourself. These are simple facts that I would think you would be very aware of.

Gosh.

[azcap]

Several of you have suggested placing stiffer penalties on employers who hire illegals. That is a big part of the long term solution but doing that requires something a lot of conservatives freak out about - a National ID. Years back I managed a business that I know had illegals working there but as the employer we couldn't prove they were illegals. As it stands now if an immigrant presents you with a social security card there is no way to verify they are the people on the card. INS and SS have tried to increase enforcement in recent years by making employers verify that SS numbers provided by employees are real and match the name of the employee but that doesn't do much to stop the abuse. There is still no way to prove Juan Doe is really who he says he is. It sounds easy to just say punish the employers and lots of companies knowingly and purposely hire illegals but the majority of illegals are either working under false pretenses (punishing the employer is wrong) or are working in domestic situations (maid, gardener, etc) and the employer cannot be identified. Unless Americans are willing to accept a forgery-proof biometric ID, illegal immigration, welfare fraud, airline security, and a host of other problems are nearly unsolvable.

[Dog Gone]

Talk about "sealing the border" has always been silly to begin with. All we can realistically do is to seal off main points of entry and deter illegal entry. A truly determined person (with enough resources) can get into any country. And it doesn't take much.

Any Mexican who could pay a coyote to guide him into America could also fly to Canada and simply walk across farmland into America. I'm not sure why more don't do just that.

The best way to deter these people is to deprive them of jobs unless they play by the rules. Bush put that on the table, and I'm not sure why so many people are going bonkers. I've already been "diminished" for thinking that it's time to discuss a new approach.

[eeriegeno]

Republicans sound just like their pandering, PC sellout DemRat counterparts. I've been voting GOP my entire life, as has my family for over 80 years. That's over for me. These people are literal lying scumbags who seem to despise us. I don't care anymore if we get a Dem.

Not only don't I care if I get a Dem, but I will probably also vote for the SOB. At least I know what I am getting!!!!!!

[drypowder]

THAT'S IT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY LEFT ME!

I'm a registered Independent conservative. The CFR law was more than I thought any DC politician would DARE push down our throats. Man was I ever wrong. This immigration move by Bush is BS. Bush is good at portraying himself as the great patriot, fighting terrorism to keep this country safe in the name of our way of life. Well, that is obviously BS as well. I'm not sure who I'm going to vote for in the next election but if this immigration policy of Bush's becomes law I know without a doubt who I will not vote for, terrorism or no.

[dmzTahoe]

This whole program would be much easier to accept if Bush had included in his policy:

1. We will immediately take steps to secure our borders
2. We will strictly enforce existing laws
3. There is a short time frame for illegals to comply. Afterwards, we will hunt down, find and deport any illegal who does not register and take advantage of this program.
4. We will introduce a Constitutional Ammendment that makes English our official language, and all must learn the language.

[deport]

The best way to deter these people is to deprive them of jobs unless they play by the rules.

---

The issue of 'Jobs' alone will clear up much of the illegal problem.... but it's a two pronged process at least.... The worker must follow the rules as established to participate and be deported if not. The Employer must have severe enough sanctions over his head that if he employs a worker that hasn't comported to the program then his penalty is severe up to an including his license to operate..... The government must have the enforcement capabilities in place and then use them....

If the employer isn't hiring, thus the jobs aren't there, then the illegals will move on to some other location, imo.

[deport]

Yes that's true they work under false pretenses....... But the proposal includes a government tracking system... I don't know what that that entails but it may include a computerized data base of those approved to enter and work. If so the approved name has to be on it or they can't be hired. If the name is on the list then the employer can't be held accountable or sanctioned for hiring someone that has gotten by the government's approval process. JMO.

[Dog Gone]

You raise some very important issues, and they must certainly be addressed in any legislation which deals with the problem.

There is an overwhelming desire to violate the law, and it's not just on the side of the Mexicans. It's on the side of Americans who want to hire them.

Now, why is that? Is it because they're better qualified than Americans? Of course not. It's because they'll do crappy jobs for less money than Americans will. How much would you need to paid to dig a tunnel by hand under a house to get to a leaky sewer pipe? You'd have to pay me about $500 per hour, at least in the Houston summer.

I agree that the current laws aren't being enforced very well. Sure, there are literally tens of thousands of arrests and deportations every year, but that obviously has not been effective. The problem continues.

We need to get a handle on who is here, but make sure that they're under the same scrutiny that you and I are under. Surely, you can't disagree with that.

Next, we need to make sure that those who are here are productive. Not unemployed losers or leeches. That sounds good to me, and it should to you, too. That's what Bush proposed.

And the "elitist" argument doesn't make sense to me. I clean toilets and dig ditches on my own property when necessary. Honest work is just that. But if Mexican labor is beating out American talent that is competing for the same jobs, I'd like to know why Americans are losing. I don't think it's happening.

[ladyinred]

If leading the war on terror isn't enough for you to vote for him, then nothing is. What do you suppose a president Gore would have done with 911? Pretending it was simply a crime just like he and his former boss Bill did. Perhaps it is time a few people took a good hard look at what is really freaking important in this country instead of all of their pet issues and decide what is right and what is wrong for our country!!!!

We are in the fight of our lives folks, and you better decide just who you want in the CIC role.

[Dog Gone]

That's why the President can't suddenly announce a law. We have Congress who can either tell him to take a flying leap, or add their own conditions to any bill that is introduced.

You and I know that any bill passed will have many significant provisions that were not mentioned today. If it passes at all.

I give Bush credit, if for nothing else at all, at focusing the country on the problem. It's been ignored too long.

[Stopislamnow]

I'm with you, split government is the way to go.

Ol Jorge Arbusto blew his load on this one.
Gazillions of dollars spent by Jorge, drugs, edumacation, campaign finance, lack of noise about his judges being held up....

I'm not even gonna hold my nose and vote for someone else, I'm gonna vote for someone else hoping it's someone the conservatives in the House hate, thus stopping govt expansion.

People say "oh, but the War on Terror...oh but the Tax cuts"...they say, like Hannity,,,,don't be myopic on this issue...I say to all of them, and Jorge, go to hell. How is outsocialisting the socialists going to improve anything.

Buy lotsa ammo, gold, and wait for the inevitable.