What's Wrong With the Proposals for a New Guestworker Program?

fairus ^ | jan 04 | fairus

[Kenny Bunk]

GWB's proposal was an excellent try at satisfying aLL parties. But if you can't p;lease everyone, you might as well please yourself.

The problem which no one wishes to tackle is a hard one: I.E. The law (or stupid custom) granting automatic citizenship to the children of illegals must end. If we are to have gastarbeiter on the German model, as our leader is actually proposing, the whole damn family has to return to Mexico in three years. And of course, for GWB's proposal to work, the border must be tightly controlled. No one wishes to state the ugly truth ... we don't want "guest workers" on the citizenship track ... and they want to stay forever.

And as usual, official sources understate the numbers involved at about a factor of 10. The former Foreign Minister of Mexico opined on the radio that, as the Mexican population ages, we can expect "only 750,000 or so" migrants from his country every year! Nice try. That's probably the number that snuck in last month!

In truth, we are looking at becoming a majority hispanic (mostly Mexican) country within the next century. Can't wait to see what congress does with GWB's plan. Keep your sense of humor ... but make sure the kids learn Spanish.

BTW, there is no way most Republicans would be willing to set this up so it can work. Their fear of the press labelling every sensible detail as xenophobia and racism is real ... and accurate.

[junta]

14th amendment makes all this talk of "guest" workers moot.

[junta]

Then all the talk about the USA being a high tech superpower is crap since we buckle if we cannot get a supply of helots on the cheap. What a load, I'm not flaming you since you are only repeating what you have heard, but I think it is bunk.

[WOSG]

The problem which no one wishes to tackle is a hard one: I.E. The law (or stupid custom) granting automatic citizenship to the children of illegals must end. If we are to have gastarbeiter on the German model, as our leader is actually proposing, the whole damn family has to return to Mexico in three years. And of course, for GWB's proposal to work, the border must be tightly controlled. No one wishes to state the ugly truth ... we don't want "guest workers" on the citizenship track ... and they want to stay forever.

A very good point.

As far as I can tell, the anti-Bush comments miss the boat on 2 levels: First, like the proposal or not, the status quo aint that great. second, have you looked at the Democrat viewpoint? Open borders, full amnesty, and a full end to the concept of citizenship entirely. If you want to hyperventilate over the destruction of our culture, save it for the Howard Dean. he really deserves it. He's that bad.

And as usual, official sources understate the numbers involved at about a factor of 10. The former Foreign Minister of Mexico opined on the radio that, as the Mexican population ages, we can expect "only 750,000 or so" migrants from his country every year! Nice try. That's probably the number that snuck in last month! Actually, that # is probably accurate. They have also said that demographics would change in Mexico so that by 2015 this would subside. What is the Mexican interest in this issue? Simple, they are exporting their unemployment! Well, if we took the workers without taking their 39 other relatives, we would still have some workers but not the flood of immigrants. Therein lies the 'compromise' imho. A small guest worker program, vigorous enforcement of law, and end chain migration and anchor babies. then we would have a saner policy: more space for the 'workers only' migrants, no flood of illegals, and a manageable labor situation that doesnt hurt American workers.

[WOSG]

"Republicans have turned me from a staunch supporter into a staunch enemy. I vow to work against them at every
single opportunity. "

Why, are you for open borders? The only defenders of immigration control and secure borders in Congress are republicans. The supporters of full amnesty are Democrats. Bush, supporting the Cornyn bill, is trying to go down-the-middle and apparently getting hits from both sides.

Guys like Lamar Smith, Tom Tacredo, etc., deserve your support.

[ableChair]

Okay, so we'll tangent to your agenda if but for a moment. Perhaps by throwing you a bone or two I can entice you back to formal logic. But it would be nice if you could defend the nihilism claim since it underpins all of your assumptions. I agree with most of the points you make in your latest post. Many of those things should be done, but my point is that it won't be enough. For the reasons stated in previous posts, illegal immigrants must be physically barred from entry. There's no simple way out of that. Any plan that does not address that comprehensively is doomed to fail. These statements are predicated on my previous posts which you are willfully ignoring now. Let me restate once again: How are you going to make these people leave once they are physically here and; apropos, what is the difference in simply allowing anyone to enter the country for any amount of time (presence in the U.S. without bound or restriction) and 'allowing' them to stay for a fixed time? How do you 'allow' that? Your failure to address that only proves my point about nihilism; you are ignoring the reality. Apertis Veritas; it escapes you.

[Kenny Bunk]

Thanks and points taken,

Upon continuing reflection, I actually do see how GWB's program might well be the lesser of two evils. However, and it's a big however, there is no administrative infrastructure anywhere that I can see, which can run the program. My real fear is that this program, or some high-sounding version of it, will be put in place and the border will remain wide open!

The other sticking point for me is the lack of exact details of the plan. If handled properly, this could mean that wages paid for the jobs offered might have to meet market rates for Americans. Hopefully, this could do away with the inane argument that the Mexicans are taking jobs no one wants to do!

Also, the plan says nothing about the illegals already here and gumming up the works in California, Texas, Colorado, and other venues. IMHO, If the Feds ain't gonna patrol the border, they owe the states some kind of subsidy ... and if tax money had to be diverted for this purpose, it just might wake up the majority of Americans who have yet to notice the problem.

Finally, I supect that sufficient demographic 'damage' has already been done, to the extent that if all Latino immigration were to end tomorrow, it would merely take those already here just another couple of decades to assume majority status in many states. Pardon my xenophobic sentiments, but having worked all over Latin America and being at home in the language and culture as a visitor, I just don't happen to think that's a great idea.

What the hell good is 'diversity' if the population is 50% Spanish-Speaking?

[ableChair]

"A small guest worker program, vigorous enforcement of law, and end chain migration and anchor babies. then we would have a saner policy: more space for the 'workers only' migrants, no flood of illegals, and a manageable labor situation that doesnt hurt American workers."

You still don't get it. They won't leave once they're here. Please, give us some evidence to show that the vast majority will willfully leave. Moreover, show us why having a "guest worker" here for three years is any different that having them here for three years under any other title or provision?

[ableChair]

Your thought processes are peculiar but all too familiar. Your ideas reflect a deductively biased thought process with virtually no demonstrated capacity for inductive reasoning. In other words, you make no attempt to test your ideas against reality. Whenever someone points it out to you, you ignore reality in favor of the theory. Handed a theory, this kind of thinker can do wonders with it; but only if the theory is valid. Without a theory, proposition or hypothesis this kind of mind is lost and flails endlessly. You will of course write that this is unrelated to our discussion, but in fact it is at the crux of the error in your thinking. By ignoring my contention you merely create your own reality; a reality that fits a predisposed position or ideology. When you're ready to acknowledge reality let me know and I'll resume.

[american spirit]

Very true and another factor not being discussed is the fact that many LEGAL immigrants who already occupy blue collar positions trying to make their way up the ladder will be most affected by the continued influx of low wage illegals.
Before long I expect to hear the drumbeat for bringing in a couple hundred million Chinese because they'll work for lower wages than Mexicans and all they want to do come here to "seek a beter life".

[BeerSwillr]

You know what might have made this announcement even more interesting?

Announcing a fee of $1000 per willing worker, payable upfront, for the benefit of working in the US for 1 year.

Many illegals supposably pay this sum to coyotes to guide them across the border.

It would make sense for the US government to capitalize on this practice to help defray some of the cost of services these folks use.

[FITZ]

A lot of the people on this forum have been middle or upper class for a couple of generations. They think all Americans just go from high school straight to college, with Daddy and Mommy footing the bill. That's not reality, though.

That might be true. A lot of them never got to do farm work such as picking fruit when they were in high school ---- which many of us did --- along with plenty of other whites. I used to see families of Southerners as migrant workers coming to work the seasonal jobs up north --- and to see them out shopping, you'd never guess they were farmworkers --- they just looked like regular middle class so unless you actually did some of those jobs, you might not realize how many Americans are actually doing them.

[FITZ]

Most of us in my family did all those jobs --- farm work, getting paid to help bale and load hay, babysitting, waiting tables, sweeping floors in a die & mold shop, cleaning horse stalls. It was a good way to get through college and never need a trust fund or college loan, --- debt free at graduation. Everyone ended up with a degree and or skilled trade and makes good money now. I know plenty of American kids still doing this same thing.

At one time American culture was based on the Protestant work ethic ---- you don't see that in third world countries --- there is a strict division of labor --- the elites would never allow their children to do these kinds of jobs --- but in the USA it was always the tradition. In the USA if you see someone sweeping the floor --- it could be a college kid on his way to making $100,000 a year, it could be lifelong job for someone, it could be a fill in job --- in countries like Mexico, if you see someone sweeeping the floor --- it would only be someone from what they consider to be their lower class.

[Thumper1960]

No, we're not dead....yet! We're on life support.

Those who obey civil and criminal laws are being told that some folks are more equal than others. If you are a segment of the population whose kid glove treatment will get votes for the powers-that-be, then you will be treated differently. You will be "accomodated". Politics as usual. The ends justify the means. Social and political skullduggery. It is no longer "illegal" to cross our borders without a passport or visa.

In my state, it's illegal to cross the border to another state to buy a bottle of wine that may be cheaper. Undercover and unmarked state police sit in wait for Pennsylvania license plated vehicles to patronize discount liqour stores, then "bust" them once they cross back into PA. Failure to pay your freaking taxes! Yet, in another part of this nation, an illegal alien can cross the border and get away with it. Heck, he/she can even get government permission to stay, without fear of prosecution. Citizens treated like crap. Non-citizens treated like royalty.

People are pissed off. The sooner Bush realizes this, the better his chances of retaining the White House come November.

[JustPiper]

Proposals for a massive new "guestworker" program would:

threaten homeland security
grant amnesty for law-breakers, a step overwhelmingly opposed by the American public
establish a back door immigration program
threaten the jobs and wages of American workers.

[Zipporah]

Consider this.. the guest worker program does not just include Mexicans- ANY foreign worker. This will be exploited by large firms offering the replacement of American workers -legally.. not having to deal with the H-1 visa program. There is no provision to prevent it.

[Happy2BMe]

A FReeper's Guide To Immigration Reform

"What remains to be seen is if this country has the capacity to accommodate, and assimilate, an unending wave of mass immigration ¯ because failure to do so will result in a balkanized, fragmented, strife-torn and dysfunctional America."

Federation for American Immigration Reform - FAIR

~ Take the FReeper Immigration Reform Poll ~