Episcopal leaders create 'church within a church'

God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE. Think of them like a rose bush and each one of them is a rose on the same rose bush. This is called the Holy Trinity.

The original Greek term was "persona." It was a term used for actors in a play playing several characters. The man (all actors then were men) stays the same, the face is different. The Trinity is three faces of the same God, like facets on a diamond.

Christ established a leadership of His church for man before he died with Peter. That was the stand-in you never read about.

Christ is not dead. He ascended to return. The Holy Spirit lives. He is active to this day. Therefore, he needs no stand-in, he (as the Holy Spirit) is already here. However, in organizational terms, the church needs leaders and God needs speakers to speak through. The catch is, they are human just like everybody else. Even Peter made mistakes. He was not infallible. Paul says he could not do anything with God. His life after his conversion was constant education as God revealed more to him. He also understood that without the Holy Spirit, he would fail. Repeatedly he was in situations that he would have to be completely dependant on God to carry him through.

There is the "Word" and "Authority" of the Church. Without the Authority, your dogma gets messed up all over the board with mistakes as you self interpret God you "YOUR" image and through the filters of "YOUR" thinking.

Am I different in this manner from the Pope? The Holy Spirit is there to set us straight, to reveal God's word directly to our spirit. Jesus repeatedly rebelled against the dogma of his day and demonstrated that God has another purpose than legalistic rules and laws. Without God's assistance we can do nothing.

Your words "I DON'T KNOW" pretty much wraps it up for me and I would suggest as you self-teach yourself that you pick up a Catechism to at least get a flavor for what you have been misunderstanding.

You mean where I said I don't know the Pope? I don't see anywhere else I said that. I grew up in a Lutheran Church and studied The Catechism. I do understand what it says. It really is not just my interpretation of scripture that tells me some things are contrary to God's will. There are some things plainly spelled out. When The Word says something is an abomination, it shows God really is not happy with it.

I have no problem with the Episcopal leaders creating the orthodox church from the gay one.

The problem a gay churches is the authority problem you mention. Who is the authority? Church authorities or God's word? The early church in Corinth had the same situation and Paul was very concerned about it. Everywhere there has been an authority problem; God's Word trumps Man's authority. Catholicism is no different. There is no church that does not come under God's authority.

I am not so narcissistic that I believe that I alone know what God says. I am completely dependant on God to teach me what I need to know. If it is through a Preacher or Pastor, then that is one way for him to get through to me. Often, when I read His Word he speaks to me directly. Sometimes I see him in life and human affairs indirectly. I believe he is trying desperately to get through to me what I am ready for by any means possible. I just have to keep my mind open to possibilities. He has my attention. (most of the time) Check out "experiencing God" by Henry Blackaby. Very good program. Intensive but awesome. I am not just self-taught Christain. I have had some excellant teachers. I am still learning.

The Pope today is the same as Peter who was the first Pope after Christ.

I know when you get into theological arguments, no one wins, but here is my two cents...

My understanding on the source of the Catholic doctrine for the infallibility of the Pope, and the direct line of succession from Peter, stems from the following passage of Scripture:

"13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ,br> 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[4] in heaven."
20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

A few problems that I have with using this passage for such a doctrine. First Christ called him Peter (petros), meaning a small stone, while He said he would build His Church on a rock (petra), meaning large rock or boulder. The rock referred to was the revelation of the truth that Jesus was the Christ. God would never build His Church on any man other than Christ, because all other men are sinful and fallible.

I understand that verse 19 is also used to argue for the authority of the Pope to declare things sinful, etc. The problem for me is that, when you look at the original Greek, the meaning is very different. The first usage of the word "you" ("give you the keys") is indeterminate as to the number of people He is addressing - is He giving the keys to Peter, or to all of the apostles? And the other usages of the word "you" ("whatsoever you bind") actually should be translated as "that is". So the correct translation of the verse would be:

And I will give you (or all of you) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever that is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever that is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven."

You may, of course, feel free to continue to believe in the infallibility of the Pope, and in the direct line of succession from Peter, but to me, the Scriptural basis is very weak. And I don't think our salvation will be determined by that point, unless of course the Pope were to command something that is opposed to God's word and you obeyed. Then that might be a problem.

Christ placed an earthly leader on earth in Peter as the first Pope.
He's not dead as we know death, but on some levels he is not here or we would not be waiting for HIS second coming right where he is to return like a thief in the night when you least expect it?

The Pope has some power in heaven and earth as well. Remember what Christ said to Peter ...
16:19 I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven."

Jesus was a Rabbi, he was the promised Savior of Jewish scripture that proclaimed himself as such and only some Jews followed him. These Jews and others formed the original church, the Catholic Church.

Authority is not only an issue with the gay churches, but all those that originally broke away from the original Catholic Church (due to various sinning).

You are interpreting the scriptures yourself and without the Authority of the church, to be sure you are very open to miss-interpretation.
The Catholic Church since Christ himself has kept the records, meanings of scriptures and given directions of all through the Authority of the church.
Without the Authority of the church, you can be endlessly lost.

Accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior for your salvation is what makes Lutherans or anybody Christian. But lacking the Authority of the original church, you tend to be like a chicken running around without a head looking for answers in everything but the right place.

You start to look through only your own eyes and not the eyes of Christ's church and that can lead to humanism real quick.

Hi CA Conservative,

I think you are correct regarding:
16:19 I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven."

I hear what you are doing in trying to prick the meaning of words to death here.

Where you are missing the big picture is the Catholic Church is the original going back to Peter as the first Pope.
This means there is a record in that Church about what happened and they know exactly what Christ meant since they were left the keys of the house (so to speak).

Don't go getting your head pounding with all the re-interpretation of this and that word.

The Catholic Church has been on this with the original records since day one.

The Pope knows he is human and the Infallibility issue is more like:
16:19 "I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven."
What he says basically goes for the Christian faithful on earth and somewhat in heaven.

But lacking the Authority of the original church...

So you are saying that the Catholic, being the original church, is the only source of authority for any church until Christ’s' return. Since every other church broke away and the Pope holds all the authority. They have none. Right?

No authority to heal in his name, no authority to cast out demons, no authority to perform miracles in his name. No authority at all. Certainly no authority to bring someone to Christ to be saved. And yet it happens daily. How can this be? All fraud? all Satan?

Can there be no other authority than the Pope? What do you do if he is corrupt? After all he is only human and with an unimaginable power. In 2000 years there have been no corrupt Popes? Not one? If the Pope be corrupt, then what authority does anyone have?

The Original Church had all the information, handed down history and was what was left by Christ to guide the people in it's established Authority.

Through sin, Martin Luther and others broke away to kind of do their own thing and started to bring God down to a human level as seen through their eyes in humanism.

Martin's sin or the Pope's? I can see how you could see it that way. The Pope of his day and several before him were very corrupt. They failed to follow the teaching of Jesus. Martin was not bringing down God to a human level, just the Pope. He was not looking to replace him. He was wanting the church to repent. It did not. It may not have still. (as far as I know, being boring is not a sin.)

Instead of proper teachings and interpretation, you get a lot of self taught mixed up people out there.

Yes it true, you can lead yourself astray by leaning on your own understanding, or even scholarly instruction. There are a lot of lost people believing some crazy stuff just because they were told that or just plain tradition. You will not be led astray by the Holy Spirit. He is the only accessible authority in God. Ignoring him is to ignore Christ. Replacing him with another doctrine (esp. a human one) is idolatry. If you mean a proper guide being a subordinate to a corrupt Pope, Bishop, Priest, then I take the Holy Spirit any day.

I said what makes them a valid Christian anyway despite their running around headless is their accepting of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior for their salvation.

So there are no saints outside of the Catholic Church. Sanctification doesn't occur without the Pope. Is that what you are saying? You can get saved and that about it. (Sounds Baptist to me) Without a man's authority on Earth, nobody has ever been sanctified. Is that what you believe?

Without the Authority of the church, you can be endlessly lost.

I understand Catholicism much better now. This was the piece I was missing! Thank you!!

I can see history through their eyes a little clearer now.

I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

Over and over in the Bible it states that GOD, his word, The Holy Spirit and Jesus are the only real authorities for his people.

Without any authority you will be lost. Who's authority is the question? God's, the Pope's, your own, another human? none?

Jesus is more than a Rabbi or even a Prophet, he is the son of God. He is not a person who left and is coming back he is here, today, alive in the Holy Spirit. Teaching his followers. Leading his church of believiers.

But lacking the Authority of the original church, you tend to be like a chicken running around without a head looking for answers in everything but the right place.

This would be true except for the Holy Spirit. He is the one who shows us who Christ really is because they are one in the same.

I noticed that you haven't mentioned him much. Without the Holy Spirit in your church, you might as well be doing a raindance. The Holy Spirit is what drove the diciples out of Pentecost and into a lost world. The Holy Spirit is what drives the Church.

John 16:13-15 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me. All that the Father has is mine; this is what I mean when I say that the Spirit will reveal to you whatever he receives from me.

I'm sure from the outside you don't see what I see or hear what I hear but I know God's spirit when it is present. The Pope has no authority over him. He is a part of God and is available to everyone who seeks him. You just have to be prepared to recieve him. If the Holy Spirit is not leading you and your church, you will most certianly be lost.

That is the secret. If I were not in a church led by the Holy Spirit, I would have to do something. Either reform the church and bring them back into repentance or leave.

This is the problem the patrons of the Episcopal church are facing now. It is the problem Martin Luther faced. I have seen it several times. I have seen it go both ways. Not on such a grand scale as this, but the same situation. A sad situation any way you look at it.

Without the Holy Spirit, you can do nothing. I am not a Humanist. I don't see God in human terms just with a human heart.

Pick up a Catechism for starters ONLY.

I can't spend years here explaining the original interpretation of Christianity.

You could also go ask a priest any question you like.

The Authority the non-Catholics are missing was the one Christ set up on earth using Peter as the first Pope.

All these off shoot versions of Christianity broke away due to various sins and the result many years down the road are all these lost souls who try and interpret what they think something means through their own eyes practicing a humanism version of Christianity.

Get a Catechism and that will help you quite a bit regarding all the detail you wish.

Also, Catholics are on the same page regarding the gospel and Bible passages read every day at mass. The same reading are read all over the world. There is order and meaning to everything.

You go into many break off faith churches and they are on all different pages preaching their own version of Christianity that Christ did not leave them.

The one important thing that saves them is they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior for their salvation. That key point is the thing that keeps them Christians.

Thank you for taking the time to converse with Me.

It really explains a lot of questions I have had about Catholicism. You have put some things in perspective. It has been a very long time since I have discussed theology with anyone. Most people don't really want to think about it, let alone discuss it. GA is home to some really bizarre religions (Cults?)

I have seen some real evil in my life and watched miracles happen in front of my eyes. When I was looking for a church home, I searched many denominations to find one that would teach the entire Bible, not just the parts they wanted to hear. Finding a church where the Holy Spirit is alive and in charge has been a challenge.

I was brought up Lutheran, but the church we went to was falling apart and I really believe my sister turned to paganism because of the failure of the church to reach her and my parents insistence on staying there. I pray for her all the time.

I have always been impressed with Martin Luther's courage to stand up the most powerful man of his day and declare is faith. Wrong or not, he was a courageous man.

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