Purging the Neocons

Sobran Column ^ | 01-06-03 | Sobran, Joseph

[westerfield]

In Sobran's case it could be that he feels that he has been unfairly persecuted as an anti-semite so out of resentment he throws out the ocassional dig. During the cold war he was an ardent supporter of Israel, so I would question those who would jump to that conclusion. BTW, are you able to name even one conservative pundit who has been critical of Israel that hasn't been branded an anti-semite at one time or another? Even Bob Novak who is of jewish ancestry has been suspected of that himself.

[Billthedrill]

So what’s the problem?

The problem, Joe, is that the term "neocon" is so sloppy and ill-defined that for some people it probably does mean "Jewish." It has become stylish for pundits all across the political spectrum to berate the "neocons" for sins from stock market manipulation to warmongering, but each of them seems to mean a different group of people. It's a term that ought to be dropped off at the retirement home for useless, feel-good neologisms.

[VaBthang4]

LOL...


No, too 60/70s'ish.

[veronica]

The purge I like is the one where William F. Buckley PURGED Joe Sobran from National Review. :))

[Hop A Long Cassidy]

>>>"David Brooks of the New York Times says of “the people labeled neocons” that “con is short for ‘conservative’ and neo is short for ‘Jewish.’"

This is an interesting new thought, but I think Brooks has the causality all wrong.

There are many neocons who are Christian and fully support Israel. In fact, in terms of quantity, the Christians are probably a large majority of the neocons.

But where he is close is that many Jews have a libertarian view of immigration - the more the merrier. They also prefer a weak defense - except in the case of Israel.

I guess I am what you call a paleo-conservative. Yet, I strongly support the defense of Israel. I just don't support the heavy non-defense subsidizing of a socialist nation.

All Jews are not neocons. All neocons are not Jewish. Not even a majority of neocons are Jewish. Just a tiny minority of Jews are neocons. So Brooks is off base with this divisive remark.

Although I've talked to quite a few Jews who support the Palestinians (quite chic in the younger ages), I think we can say that most Jews support the defense of Israel (they were given the territory by the British, and they defeated the Palestinians so many times I've lost count). But this doesn't make them neocons.

But we could say that some of the leaders and thinkers of the neocons are Jewish. But that should not, and is not, a brush that paints the whole group. I think of Rockefeller, a RINO, as the ideal neo-con. If he wants to link them to Jewishness then he should just call them kibitzers.

I dislike the neocons because of their position on immigration but I never thought of them as Jews. Nor did I think the term as an ethnic slur. In this age of hyper political correctness I guess everyone wants to be a victim. If Brooks wants to be a victim then each year he should parade himself around New York and beat himself with a stick like the Shite Moslems do.

Hoppy

[bayourod]

If "neo" means Jewish, what is a neo-nazi?

[hchutch]

I liked that one, too. :)

[westerfield]

All Jews are not neocons. All neocons are not Jewish. Not even a majority of neocons are Jewish. Just a tiny minority of Jews are neocons. So Brooks is off base with this divisive remark.

I would agree. I recently came across a poll showing tha slightly more than 50% of American Jews were against the war in Iraq, a war that ostensibly indirectly benefits Israel. It stands to reason that the vast majority of those who identify themselves as neocons would be non-Jews.

[Alouette]

I recently came across a poll showing tha slightly more than 50% of American Jews were against the war in Iraq

Where did you come across this poll?

What is really showed what that 50% of the people self-identifying as "Jews" who were selected to participate in this poll were against the war in Iraq.

It does not in any way represent the opinions of "50%" of American Jews since 100% of American Jews did not participate in this poll.

[westerfield]

I don't recall where I came across the poll, tho I can't say that I was particularly surprised by it since most American Jews tend to be liberal and don't care for Bush or his policies.

[rmlew]

In Sobran's case it could be that he feels that he has been unfairly persecuted as an anti-semite so out of resentment he throws out the ocassional dig. During the cold war he was an ardent supporter of Israel, so I would question those who would jump to that conclusion
Bill Buckley for one. Buckley fired Sobran from NR over anti-Semitism.

This is not about Israel. Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism is not neccesarily anti-Semitism.
However, read Sobran's own words http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1011360/posts
Sobran lies about Jewish law, recycling Medieval lies aboutthe Talmud andJewish customs.http://sitelevel.whatuseek.com/query.go?crid=37ea11aa0a7ab219&query=talmud
Sobran speaksfor Holocaust Revisionist groups.
He opposes a Jewish state. He opposes Jews defending themselves. Sobran minimizes theHolocaust. Finally Sobran lies about Judaism. How is he NOT an Anti-Semite!

As for Bob Novak, being of Jewish ancestry is irrelevent. Torqemada was 1/2 Jewish. Novak converted from Judaism and ishostile to Israel. Res ipsa locquator.
On the other hand, Bill Buckley has opposed man Israeli policies. I don't recall him being called an anti-Semite.

[Poohbah]

In Sobran's case it could be that he feels that he has been unfairly persecuted as an anti-semite so out of resentment he throws out the ocassional dig.

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

Hang out with Holocaust deniers, get people to believe you're an anti-semite.

[rmlew]

Neo conservatism is not Jewish and paleoconservatism is not anti-Jewish.
There are Jewish and philosemitic Christian paleocons. In fact, if you do not consider foreign policy to be the determining factor in paleoconservatism, there are Zionist paleocons, including myself.

Most Paleos are traditionally very sympathetic to the Palestinians.This is a function of the knee-jerk antipathy towards anything neocons support. Other are Arabists because they want to appease the Arabs/Muslims and.or view Israel as the cause of our problems in the region. On the otherhand, virtually all paleos who believe that defending Western civilization trumps the isolationist impulse are pro-Israel. Some go so far as to support transfer as the solution for the Palestinian problem. My friend Robert Locke was banned from TAC over this issue. Other Zionist paleos include Lawrence Auster (and most people posting on his blog, ), John Derbyshire, and John O'Sullivan. There are even Jewish Zionist paleos including Don Feder and Ilana Mercer.

[rmlew]

RINO's are not neocons.
Rockefeller's foriegn polices was a mixture of neo-realism and corporatism. This was the antithesis of neocon foreign policy.
While neocons are not as wary of big government as other conservatives, they do not support government intrusion the same way RINO's do. RINO's are slow liberals. Neocons understand the inherent problem of unintended consequences.

[junta]

That last paragraph was as delusional bit of rambling that could possibly be written.

[rmlew]

What exactly was delusional?
Do you want to get past name calling?

[x]

At stake is the good name of the neoconservative philosophy. It would be a disaster to its principles for the general public to get the false impression that those principles are nothing but a “front” for agents of a foreign power who want to trick us into wars against our own interests.

Any genuine political philosophy can stand on its own feet. It must never be reduced to any particular interest if it is to have a broad appeal to ordinary people.

Sobran is just plain wrong. The word "neoconservatism" is used in two rather different senses.

"Neoconservatism" as an ideology will be around for a while. It refers first to to the to the disillusionment of former liberals with liberal social experiments, second to the efforts of conservatives to adapt to changing circumstances, most particularly to the modern "mixed economy," and third to a more realistic view of foreign affairs. "Neoconservatism" in this sense does have a broader appeal, and has influenced people who would never claim to be neocons, even people who hate neocons.

The word is also used in less "philosophical" contexts to refer to the foreign policies (and much less often domestic policies) advocated by a given circle of thinkers and activists most commonly known as neocons. One can draw on or adhere to the philosophy without advocating the specific policy recommendations of these thinkers.

It may be that neoconservative foreign policy will decay or collapse. No foreign policy line lasts forever, and there have been real problems with the neocon point of view. But such a decline or fall isn't going to throw everyone into Sobran's political camp -- not by a long shot.

[junta]

You wrote "transfer" with no doubt a straight face. A good many of your neocon friend excoriate America along with their lefty friends for its high crimes of "racism" (the never ending show trial, the need for never ending aversion therapy) so keep it up with that "transfer" non-sense and see where it leads. Or would you and your Manhattan flunkie friends like Frum like to "transfer" me somewhere where I cannot be pesky to you.

[junta]

"Disillusionment" you must be kidding me, Liberalism is the sugar in the Neo-con's Kool-Aid. It is damn near impossible to find a neo-con who cannot write an essay without using the liberal hate word of "Racism" when it comes to critiqueing other conservatives.

[westerfield]

Sobran lies about Jewish law, recycling Medieval lies aboutthe Talmud andJewish customs.

Following your link, it does appear that Sobran quotes Shahak concerning unflattering depictions of gentiles in the Talmud. It is my understanding that the Torah is the main text of Judaism and the Talmud is merely a collection of Rabbi opinion, so I wouldn't necessarily be surprised that some un-pc stuff got in there, but that doesn't make Sobran a liar - just someone with perhaps a bit of a jewish obsession. Here is a link to an authoritative jewish source that pretty much concedes that what Sobran says about the Talmud is essentially true. http://www.daatemet.org/daathalacha/en_gentiles.html

As far as Buckley getting a pass on his critisizing of Israel, I assume people cut him a break because he did after all dump Sobran and basically called Pat Buchanan an anti-semite. What seems to occur in these cases is that somebody starts out dissing Israel, then the attacks and name calling set in, until finally the person who has been set up thusly becomes even more hostile and obsessed with Jews. Kind of a vicious cycle.