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ARTILLERY: US Sheds Most Non-Divisional Artillery
StrategyPage.com ^ | January 31, 2004

Posted on 01/31/2004 9:02:38 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

January 31, 2004: The U.S. Army has decided that smart bombs and smart shells make a lot of its artillery units unnecessary. So two thirds of its non-divisional (those that that are not part of a combat division) artillery battalions will be converted to other uses (engineers, military police and civil affairs.) That's 36 artillery battalions containing nearly 10,000 troops. Most of these are National Guard units, who report to state governors until they are called up by the federal government. The governors won't mind having fewer artillery, and more engineer, military police and civil affairs battalions, as these units are more useful for the natural disasters the governors usually call upon National Guard units to help out with.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; US: Oklahoma
KEYWORDS: armytransformation; artillery
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To: Phsstpok
Bad move because aircraft, even though labeled all weather, really cannot deliver munitions in all weather.
61 posted on 02/01/2004 11:39:32 AM PST by Darksheare (The voices in YOUR head are talking to ME!)
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To: Phsstpok
"I was trying, obviously unsuccessfully, to put forward the argument that the army needs to re-shuffle some of it's force structure away from the traditional massed fire approach for all things and put more of it's assets in newer, lighter, easier to deploy, forces"

Unsuccessfully is right. We all know the argument. The argument is just horsefeathers. It is buzzword bilge with no relation to actual military facts. Not just your version, the whole groupthink idiocy of only light is modern and "transformative". Newer? Newer is only better if it is an improvement. Lighter? Lighter is only better if it is an improvement. That everything is improved by being lighter is simply false. Instead of asking actual military questions about combined arms and how it works, we weigh things and let a buzzword and branch sexiness decide everything instead.

If it were true that light is always better, we'd send only amazons in their PTs with 22 caliber pistols, because boy are they light. Easier to deploy? A towed 105 will go anywhere on a chopper. Strykers don't - in case nobody noticed, they go by ship in practice. An M109 will fly wherever a C-17 can land - we spent billions on those for what, exactly? So AF types could get high paying jobs for Southwest, or so we could get heavy equipment to theater fast when necessary? Easier to deploy? The 173rd was real easy to deploy. It sat in the Kurdish mountains and watched the war. The 3rd was supposedly hard to deploy. It landed easily in Kuwait and went straight to Baghdad, through everything they had, in a few days. It isn't deployment that takes time anyway, it is diplomacy, and if you don't bring some armor, decision once battle is joined. Somebody is focused on the wrong "D".

It is easy to see why. The heavy types inside the army have no political pull. Everybody else has decided to turn them into a hidebound dinasour strawman and to wail away at them as the uncool geeks on the playground of the funding wars. The marines say they deploy better because deployment is nearly their entire mission. The AF says it will do all the shooting, don't fund anything else, because F-22s and JDAMs are both effective and expensive and the budget is limited in size; they want every scrap of it. The navy says you can't deploy there unless we win. Then the light airborne snakeaters types within the army say "OK OK, we will agree with you and gut the army, as long as we are henceforth forevermore in charge of the remainder, the only guys who'll get promoted, and whatever we want we get".

The reality is the truly effective weapons we have are JDAMs on the one hand, and heavy ground combat systems on the other. That means M-1s, MLRS, Brads, and M109s. Those fight and win the nation's wars. Snakeaters hog the promotions and brownnose the bottom line boys by agreeing to gut everybody else. The marines can get there and fight if the army lends them some M-1s if they ever encounter any actual enemy, or the AF blows it out of their way. They will be a week behind the heavy army, through no fault of their own. Simply because they are built for a dozen other things instead of being specialized at blowing their way through real ground opposition without loss.

They told us you'd need light infantry to fight in cities. Wrong. They told us heavy stuff wouldn't get there in time. Wrong. They told us we'd never need a ground footprint because SF and local allies and the airforce would do all of it. Wrong. They told us a Stryker would fit in a C-130. Wrong. They told us it'd stop a 50 cal round. Wrong. They told us an F-16 could do the work of all fire support. Wrong.

In Anaconda, they dropped multiple 2000 lb laser guided bombs on a single MG in a log bunker 200m away, without actually getting it (men bleed to death in the meantime), because they had nothing between a .223 caliber SAW and an F-16. These days troops in Afghanistan carry AT-4s, unguided with 250m range, just to have something that will KO a mud hut. We've got automatic grenade launchers and ATGMs and smart rounds for 81 and 120mm mortars and flyable 105 and 155 arty, but they didn't bother to bring any of it. Why? They were told to be "light". So all the heavy weapons companies and arty battalions either didn't deploy at all, or remain stationary in base camps.

In the march to Baghdad, in contrast, they went right through multiple armor divisions into the heart of hostile cities, blowing through multiple RPG and HMG ambushes, with a casualty toll that looks like peacetime traffic accidents. What in God's name will it take before any of the mindnumbed robots droning on about "lighter, more deployable" see that armorand firepower win wars and saves lives, and funding fight buzzwords do neither?

62 posted on 02/01/2004 11:46:50 AM PST by JasonC
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To: neverdem
Those referred to years ago, I had the years part after the lengthy parenthases...
63 posted on 02/01/2004 12:04:46 PM PST by Axenolith (<tag>)
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To: Phsstpok
What they should be doing with arty is not gutting it, but upgrading it. In range and in smart, guided firepower to boost fire effectiveness, and in sensor and information systems to boost situational awareness and cut response times. That means terminal IR homing for 155 rounds (an improvement over copperhead). MIRV style terminal homing for MLRS bomblets. Yes by all means smart mortars too. It means good counterbattery radars to spot every mortar the instant it fires and put steel on it right back. It means real time own force position displays on VR maps inside every battalion fire direction center.

What will you get in response? You will get on call fire timed in seconds not hours, exactly where you want it, powerful enough to neutralize any target you care to name. Then the light guys up front will have some real combat ability - as forward observors, not as a terror to snakes. They won't have to wait hours for it to come in, and it'll have infinite "loiter time". It will kill stuff as fast as you can see it and phone home, and as fast as completely unsexy trucks can haul the ammo up to the guns.

Why are we in this mess? It is clear the present revolution in military affairs is all about smart weapon firepower. Firepower has increased in importance drastically. And range. Instead of doctrine running with this, outside the airforce it is all razzle dazzle maneuver warfare theory instead. That is the real hidebound idea - it is so 1940.

A big part of the reason why is that the important arms for it are the least sexy in the force. Why are they unsexy? Because sexy is synonymous with needs lots of courage, and it doesn't take a lot of courage to feed a gun or truck it ammo. It works just fine. But because it works so well it doesn't really even involve serious risk to life and limb, military culture turns up its nose at it. It is geeky. No snakes are eaten. At least in the air force, the officers go off to fight in risky ways. Arty is a bureaucracy by comparison. Move guns into position, set up guns, process fire support requests, feed guns, enemy evaporates. Not sexy. Just extremely effective death-dealing.

64 posted on 02/01/2004 12:10:29 PM PST by JasonC
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To: Darksheare
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/missiles/jdam/jdam_back.htm

Boeing says that JDAMS has GPS guidance, therefore it's all weather. That doesn't mean that the guidance will forever be free from interference, FWIW.

Near the bottom of the link, they mention the intention to provide with terminal guidance, which I believe has already been done with a receiver that detects laser illumination, IIRC.

They expect to be able to fly over storm systems at 30,000 feet and provide close air support.
65 posted on 02/01/2004 1:28:21 PM PST by neverdem (Xin loi min oi)
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To: JasonC
I don't think sexiness and snake eater contempt for gun bunnies is as much an issue as the cold hard fact that the Marines can do most of the Army's job, and they already have a ride to the war. Read Transforming Strategic Mobility.

The Army is completely dependent on the Navy and Air Force (including the Civil Reserve Air Fleet) to project its forces into the fray.

66 posted on 02/01/2004 1:32:43 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: neverdem
*snicker*
And when they need to nail a fast moving enemy formation, how good will the GPS fix be then.
Terminal guidance is only good if the target can be seen and it's gps co-ords plotted to provide the fix.
Artillery, if you know the guy is somewhere in the area bounded by 'x' and 'y' on the map, you flatten everything inside it.
But, the push to have technology replace guys on the ground moves on and always will.
JDams may be nice, but the Air Force will still want 24 hour prenotice of targets, and still won't be able to take off in certain weather over the airbases.
(I'm not one for purposefully limiting ourselves. Yes, certain situations are hypothetical, but you never know when you'll be caught up short.)
67 posted on 02/01/2004 1:38:37 PM PST by Darksheare (The voices in YOUR head are talking to ME!)
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To: Darksheare
Terminal homing isn't limited to GPS. IR guidance for terminal homing is a very promising technology, for arty itself. Essentially you fire missions just as before, but a tiny heat seeker in the nose of the fuse looks for the heat signature of tanks and such, and steers small course adjustments in the final descent. Not perfect, but can give each shell something like a 50-50 shot of a direct hit. And that makes arty HEAT a top attack heavy armor killer. We should be developing this for 155s as well as 120s and MLRS, not sneering at it.
68 posted on 02/01/2004 3:07:10 PM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC
Copperhead rounds, IR guidance.
GPS guidance has already been looked into for artillery rounds.
Basically, they had a round that could turn around and hit the gun firing it.
(Slight stretch there, but the round can curve it's flight.)

Will it ever see actual production and deployment?
Not anytime soon in the US.
*sighs*
I was in artillery once, and had heard about these nice toys in development for us.
Problem was that the high brass didn't like us much.
They kept declaring us as obsolete.
69 posted on 02/01/2004 3:13:39 PM PST by Darksheare (The voices in YOUR head are talking to ME!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
They can't remotely do the army's job (there are only 2 divisions of them), and it makes no difference which branch of service controls the lift. In practice, all major wars are supplied by sea, via ro-ros, with the bulk of the personnel, only, going by air to meet their equipment. The economics of lift dictate this, not who "owns" which vehicles. Nobody is going to fly it all in when a ship gets it there for a tenth the cost. Recent wars haven't start on 48 hour time scales, not when we are doing all the attacking because nobody dares take us on directly, on purpose.

Is it useful to have some emergency forces that e.g. could get to South Korea in a day or two rather than in a month? Of course. But we aren't going to lose because we don't have a month to send ships. There isn't anybody out there who can mount that kind of threat against us.

People talk as though the end of the Warsaw Pact means now deployability is everything. The truth is only the Warsaw Pact was enough of a threat to hurt us rapidly that rapid deployability (e.g. refogger) mattered. With all the third rate dictators, we've got time to set up the sucker punch, because they aren't coming for us we are coming for them.

Does anybody stop to think about these things? No. They just get a buzzword that fits a preconceived notion and they run with it. Do they look at what we actually do, and whether it actually works, and react to those lessons? No. They force war strategies to fit their funding games instead of the other way around.

Deployable guys in Mogidishu needed back up from Pakistani armor. They'd been there for months. Marines had their own armor, but had already left, for the most part. It was army snake-eaters that were left. The 173rd sat out of the war up north. 3rd went through the strongest defenses twice as fast as the Marines went through lighter ones. In Gulf I, 24th Mech and the ACRs did the lion's share. The heavies have performed every time they've been used.

Our lighter guys are supposed to get everywhere faster. In practice, they rely on choppers instead of ground vehicles. We lose choppers to low tech arms continually, and that accounts for a high portion of our KIA. They are clearly the most vulnerable part of the force. If you must get there instantly, choppers are vital, of course - also in high country (though too high, we've found in Afghanistan, and the UH-60 can't make it). But we fly just because the stuff that can go on the ground has been left behind, despite month and year long deployments. Then they don't want tracks because of POL usage. Um, choppers don't exactly run on MREs.

But a buzzword substitutes for thought. Somebody just had the management guru brainstorm to label anything heavy as "old", and it is supposed to be useless just because that magic wand has been waved. Experience be damned, reasoning be damned. It is mindless and it will eventually get a battalion's worth of people killed. That is probably what it will take before anybody wakes up.

70 posted on 02/01/2004 3:24:07 PM PST by JasonC
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To: Darksheare
Copperheads are laser designated. The newest IR stuff doesn't need a painted target, it homes on natural heat. GPS for arty rounds is quite easy and we should do it, clearly. The thing about autonomous terminal IR is you don't need to know exactly where the tank is and you don't even need an eyeballing FO. He can just know it is over that ridge hiding in dead ground, and call the mission. And the rounds will find the tanks.
71 posted on 02/01/2004 3:27:05 PM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC
That's something that came out after my stint in uniform then.
72 posted on 02/01/2004 3:38:09 PM PST by Darksheare (The voices in YOUR head are talking to ME!)
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To: Darksheare
Well, I should hope so. Otherwise you'd be a time traveler. It has been developed and tested, but not yet funded or deployed.
73 posted on 02/01/2004 4:03:07 PM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC
The GPS rounds were skywared, prototyped and tested, but still yet out in the realm of vaporware for field units.
I knew back in my stay in uniform that we'd never see them at all.
We were also supposed to see a digital fire control system for the howitzer, the Brits have one available for their light towed system and actually use it, but that too is in the realm of 'never gonna be.'

74 posted on 02/01/2004 4:10:45 PM PST by Darksheare (The voices in YOUR head are talking to ME!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
So two thirds of its non-divisional (those that that are not part of a combat division) artillery battalions will be converted to other uses (engineers, military police and civil affairs.)

Based on my 2 years as an ALO working with artillery officers - this sounds like they just created a lot of deaf engineers and police.

Bad idea, IMHO.

75 posted on 02/01/2004 4:16:40 PM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: Mr Rogers
See? Mindless insulting ad hominums, not a scrap of actual thought. It is all verbal hallucination. Heavy mentally hints at fat slow plodding, artillery mentally hints at REMFs, NG mentally hints at middle age has beens. That 155mm ICM from 5 miles away is much more useful in battle than 5.56mm from 250m, is just ignored.
76 posted on 02/01/2004 4:27:06 PM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC
They can't remotely do the army's job

No? The Army's job doesn't have anything to do with the projection of land power?

(there are only 2 divisions of them)

There are four Marine Divisions, three active and one reserve.

it makes no difference which branch of service controls the lift

OK, give the sea lift to the Air Force and the airlift to the Coast Guard. Think that'll work? No? Why not? Only the Army has to beg a ride to the war. Everybody else can get there on their own.

all major wars are supplied by sea

The Army is getting out of the major theater war business and reconfiguring itself for operations other than war, peacekeeping, stability and support operations, and delivering the pizza for UN Meals On Wheels missions. The Army's likely adversaries are no longer other armies.

Nobody is going to fly it all in when a ship gets it there for a tenth the cost.

Tell that to the Airborne. Not too many ships getting to Afghanistan these days.

Does anybody stop to think about these things?

Only you have a clue. Everybody else has their head up their ass.

77 posted on 02/01/2004 9:28:00 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Mr Rogers
Huh?
78 posted on 02/01/2004 9:30:33 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
No, only certain others have their heads up their ass, but there are quite a number of them certainly. A lot of people have decided to gut what the nation actually uses to keep their own pet projects fully funded, and many of them have decided on their prefered whipping boy, based on nothing more than spin.

No, the Marine corps can't hold Korea, Taiwan, Afghanistan, Iraq, the gulf, and the Balkans simultaneously. It is nice to have air supremacy but Kosovo is not much of a recipe, and whenever the NCAs actually want to change things they need men on the ground in numbers, and that means the army.

As for "the major theater war business", one side cannot decide to get out of it. It only takes one. If NK decides it is in that business, then we are in that business. Also, the US NCAs show no sign whatever of getting out of the remaking of countries business, which tends to be preceeded by the MTW business, not all tyrants being willing to go gently into that good night.

It is obviously absurd to pretend the nation doesn't need an army. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that has no place in a rational debate about force structure. None of the services is going to simply disappear, because they all exist for reasons which have not changed and are not going to change.

79 posted on 02/02/2004 12:23:20 AM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC
No, the Marine corps can't hold Korea, Taiwan, Afghanistan, Iraq, the gulf, and the Balkans simultaneously.

Neither can the active Army.

The US Army is not on Taiwan.

The Army is moving out of Korea. They have already moved out of Seoul. The reason the first Stryker Brigade was designated 3rd Brigade, 2ID, was because it was originally intended to relieve the two brigades there now.

whenever the NCAs actually want to change things they need men on the ground in numbers, and that means the army.

So that's why Rummy and Schoomaker don't want two more divisions?

As for "the major theater war business", one side cannot decide to get out of it. It only takes one. If NK decides it is in that business, then we are in that business.

If the NK's started the invasion tomorrow morning, what role would the US Army play? What reinforcements would Eighth Army get? 172nd Infantry Brigade? Nope, they are transitioning to Strykers and are undeployable and one of their battalions is in Afghanistan. 25th ID? Nope. They have one brigade transitioning to Strykers, one in Afghanistan and one fixing to go. Maybe somebody smarter than us isn't too worried about the NK's right now.

Who besides the NK's?

The Syrians, the Iranians, then who? The Pakistanis? The Chinese? You want to fight a land war in Asia?

It is obviously absurd to pretend the nation doesn't need an army.

Obviously. Who is pretending any such thing?

None of the services is going to simply disappear, because they all exist for reasons which have not changed and are not going to change.

Warfare has changed. Technology has changed. Americans have changed. But you don't think the armed forces are going to change?

The Army is not going to disappear, but it is going to transform into a very different organization. The most likely enemy is no longer another army.

What's driving a lot of this is the insecurity of the Army's leadership. You don't see admirals and Marine and Air Force generals writing about how to remain "relevant."

80 posted on 02/02/2004 9:45:41 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (The road to Glory cannot be followed with too much baggage.)
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