Re: Passion - Where is the Gratitude to Conservative Christians, for Their Support for Israel?

February 24, 2004 | Comte de Maistre

[ComtedeMaistre]

The respected Jewish pro-family activist, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, has noted the immense damage that leftist Jewish organizations like the ADL have inflicted on Christian/Jewish relations: http://www.towardtradition.org/article_Passion_Feb_2004.htm

Rabbi Lapin notes that

"instead of helping the Jewish community, they have inflicted lasting harm. By selectively unleashing their fury only on wholesome entertainment that depicts Christianity, in a positive light, they have triggered anger, hurt, and resentment."

Before the year 2000, when Ariel Sharon was elected Prime Minister of Israel, it was often said that American conservative Christians were among Israel's best friends.

Since that time, Arab and other Islamic nations have preached extremely vile anti-semitic propaganda in their media. In 2001, there was a conference in Durban, South Africa, where third world nations denounced Israel as a racist state. After 9-11, Western European nations, especially France, Germany and Belgium, turned against Israel. In Eastern European nations such as Russia and Poland, anti-Jewish feeling is widespread, mainly because of bitter memories of the communist years. In the US, the Democratic party is less supportive of Israel than in the past, as demonstrated by Howard Dean's call for "even-handedness" in the Middle East. Dems took this position to attract Muslim and Arab votes.

Today, it would not be accurate to say that conservative American Christians are "among Israel's best friends". It would be more accurate to say that they are Israel's ONLY true friends left in the world today.

And where is the gratitude to American conservative Christians, for their strong and consisent support for Israel, even in times when everyone else seems to have abandoned Israel? As Rabbi Lapin has noted, the Jewish groups that are attacking the "Passion" movie by Mel Gibson, are attacking the deepest and most heartfelt beliefs that conservative Christians have. Is this how you treat your only remaining friends left on this earth?

[ComtedeMaistre]

The vicious, spiteful and malicious attacks on Gibson and his film, have simply sickened me. We never saw similar attacks on anti-Christian movies like "Dogma", "Last Temptation of Christ", "Priest", etc.

Doe that mean anti-Christian movies=good, while pro-Christian movies=bad?

[RKV]

Actually is means (nominally) anti-Jewish movies = bad and pro-Christian movies = much worse.

[anniegetyourgun]

xactly. You clearly understand the world. But, remember, they hated Him first.

[reed_inthe_wind]

I am not a Jew, but if I may speak for them I might respond by saying, How dare you demand "gratitude". And, what is your motive by linking this tempest in a tea pot with Christian /Jewish relations.

[ComtedeMaistre]

It was Rabbi Lapin of Toward Tradition who raised the issue.

[LS]

You must understand that Israelis want to "thank us" from a distance. They are extremely wary of evangelical support for Israel. Don't look to them for gratitude.

[AppyPappy]

Maybe we should ask the Jewish Pope to render a verdict. Where is he?

[InvisibleChurch]

when we open a door for someone, we shouldn't get upset for them not saying thank you... we do things because they are the right thing to do, not for the recognition

[Doug Loss]

In all things, do what is right. Do not do it in expectation of gratitude or reward, do it because it is right.

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't support Isreal because they are Jewish or on the condition they speak only glowingly about Mel Gibson's movie, I support them because they are a country fighting attackers who blow themselves up in city buses. How they feel about this movie has no bearing on whether they deserve our support in the fight they fight for survival.

[ComtedeMaistre]

>>when we open a door for someone, we shouldn't get upset for them not saying thank you<<

I agree. But the least that we should expect from those we have helped, is that they should not belittle the faith that we hold so dear.

[reed_inthe_wind]

In all things, do what is right. Do not do it in expectation of gratitude or reward, do it because it is right.

Thank you for the words.

[Shermy]

The vicious, spiteful and malicious attacks on Gibson and his film, have simply sickened me. We never saw similar attacks on anti-Christian movies like "Dogma", "Last Temptation of Christ", "Priest", etc.

You saying these Jews should be held in collective guilt for not protesting movies they didn't perceive as targeting them - and which didn't?

As for "Christian" I'm going somewhere other than heaven according to Mel because I don't subscribe to the Western ("Catholic") Church. Is Mel therefore an anti-Christian too?

[CindyDawg]

I don't expect any gratitude since as a Christian, I do it for God.

[InvisibleChurch]

understood, but remember the Lord's words ...Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."... just goes to show that His words are as applicable now as they were 2,000 years ago

[ComtedeMaistre]

>>Do not do it in expectation of gratitude or reward, do it because it is right.<<

I do not disagree with that statement. Even in the case of the French. We liberated the French from the Nazis 60 years ago. But, today, the French treat us like dirt.

But even if we had to do it all over again, we would still find it worthwhile to risk the lives of our troops, to liberate the French from Nazism.

But a little gratitude from those who benefit from us, wouldn't be a terrible thing, would it?

[Dog Gone]

America supports Israel because it is a democracy. Conservative Christians do so for the same reason, but there are some other factors involving biblical prophecy, which may be more compelling.

Israel has not shown a whole lot of gratitude to the US, simply because it doesn't mean much, and would be counterproductive diplomatically. We really don't want Israel gushing over our support.

American Jews vote overwhelming Democrat, which never seems to bother the conservative Christians who support Israel, which is rather astonishing. If they support Israel more than American Jews, then some disturbing conclusions have to be reached.

[Spok]

This whole notion of collective guilt has been resurrected by the Liberals to condemn present-day whites for slavery. I always thought that in America, a criminal's whole family is not punished for the acts of one member, no more than all American Jews were held accountable for Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Afixing moral blame for shared ethnicity or skin color is rascist, archaic and leads inevitably to the kind of hatred that fuels ethnic feuds like the Jihad. But it appears to be a mindset that mankind will never get rid of-it's a premise that's not even challenged in 21st century America.

[ComtedeMaistre]

>>This whole notion of collective guilt has been resurrected by the Liberals to condemn present-day whites for slavery.<<

It is also used to condemn present-day American Christians, for crimes committed by Europeans against Jews 500 years ago.

Europeans who lived in the past, should rightly be blamed for the Inquisition and other injustices.

But present day American Christians bear no guilt, for what some Europeans did 500 years ago.

America has no history of anti-Jewish persecution of the sort that existed in Europe.

[Honestfreedom]

The problem is that too many Jews are much more liberal than they are Jewish and care more about abortion and gay rights than about Israel.

[DentsRun]

when we open a door for someone, we shouldn't get upset for them not saying thank you... we do things because they are the right thing to do, not for the recognition

On the other hand, biting the hand that feeds you is a pretty poor philosophy of life.

[DentsRun]

I am not a Jew, but if I may speak for them I might respond by saying, How dare you demand "gratitude". And, what is your motive by linking this tempest in a tea pot with Christian /Jewish relations.

If I were a small mideast country threatened by my neighbors and a country across the sea populated by people of another religion gave me upwards of $70 or $80 billion over the years, I sure would be grateful. And I would consider it my duty not to gratitiously offend them because one of their actors made a film about his god that nothing to do with me.

[ladyjane]

But a little gratitude from those who benefit from us, wouldn't be a terrible thing, would it?

At the very least - respect.

[Tempest]

Stop, stop. You're making too much sense.

Well I guess the liberals are just so good at breeding a plantation mentality that many American Jews still feel beholden to the Democrat party for no good reason.

[LWalk18]

First of all, many Jews have spoken up for this movie. Second of all, what do Israeli Jews have to do with what some American Jews think about this movie? Third, what have you personally done so that the Jewish people collectively owe you anything?

Finally, as a Christian who is eager to see this movie sometime in the next week, I can't help but feeling a little disturbed at some people's attitudes that unless you don't instantly crown this movie the greatest of all time, you are somehow 1) Anti-Christian or 2) Not a "real" Christian. I know this movie has inspired a great deal of passion(no pun intended), but let's temper our language a bit.

[SJackson]

Passion - Where is the Gratitude to Conservative Christians, for Their Support for Israel?

From a Jew who has no problems with The Passion, and is appreciative for support for Israel, based IMO on their moral judgement, it's nonexistant.

For any Christians who base their suport on Israel on support for a movie (laughable), follow your conscience, Yasser is out there, support him, because if the Arab world rallies around his cause, they won't live long enough to get to the Sunday people, thanks to the Saturday people.

Jews have to support a move, or Christian's will support suicide bombers. Flawed premise.

[SJackson]

First of all, many Jews have spoken up for this movie. Second of all, what do Israeli Jews have to do with what some American Jews think about this movie? Third, what have you personally done so that the Jewish people collectively owe you anything?

Clearly you don't view Jews as a monolith, thus the premise of the thread makes no sense.

[King Prout]

you expected... GRATITUDE... in THIS world???

the surest way to earn an enemy in this world is to do someone an unrepayable favor.

[gcruse]

Whither the Jewish Vote?

[montag813]

And where is the gratitude to American conservative Christians, for their strong and consisent support for Israel, even in times when everyone else seems to have abandoned Israel? As Rabbi Lapin has noted, the Jewish groups that are attacking the "Passion" movie by Mel Gibson, are attacking the deepest and most heartfelt beliefs that conservative Christians have. Is this how you treat your only remaining friends left on this earth?

Not a single REAL JEW has attacked "The Passion". Abe Foxman's religion is Communism. His theology is Secular Humanism. Most Jewish "leaders" are "Reform" Jews (known to religious Jews as "deformed") and they are JINO's (Jews In Name Only). They are to be ignored, ridiculed and have very cold beverages dumped on their heads. Having Abe Foxman lecture on Christianity is like having Maxine Waters lecture on the CIA. Neither have a damn clue of what they speak.

[Trinity_Tx]

Oh my Goodness, you're right!

Maybe, if we complain loudly enough, and we're lucky, then at next week's "Jewish People Meeting", They will read this aloud, see the error of Their ways and all come back with an apology and promises of everlasting gratitude to Us.

</sarcasm>

[rmlew]

A number of conservative Jews opposed many anti-Christian media events, movies, exhibits.... For the most part, these were ignored by the media.
The problem is that the good gues are not as well funded or covered as the left. And frankly, there is human nature at play. What grabs your attention
1. A threat to your neighboor, with whom you have had a rocky relationship, that has recently improved
2. A percieved threat to yourself?

[Ichneumon]

I agree. But the least that we should expect from those we have helped, is that they should not belittle the faith that we hold so dear.

And which Israelis *have* "belittled your faith"?

[Ichneumon]

We never saw similar attacks on anti-Christian movies like "Dogma", "Last Temptation of Christ", "Priest", etc.

"Last Temptation" is not an "anti-Christian movie". The book was written by a devout Christian, in order to highlight what he considered to be the depth of Jesus's sacrifice, and the movie was made by a devout Catholic. I can understand why many people did not share their view of the gospels, but that doesn't make the movie "anti-Christian".

And while "Dogma" was definitely off-the-wall and wildly irreverent, that doesn't make it "anti-Christian" either. The writer/director is a practicing Catholic, and his intent was not to disparage Christianity. The movie celebrates faith (albeit in an offbeat manner), and it's interesting to note that one of the characters the movie targets for satire is a priest (played by George Carlin) who tries to make his church more "popular" by "modernizing" it too much.

I don't know enough about "Priest" to comment on that film.

Not every nontraditional religious film is automatically "anti-Christian".

[LS]

Yes, Doug, do what is right. That wasn't the context of the question. The context was, why do Jews have so little tolerance for Christians after the support Christians give Israel, and the answer is, they know that in the end, that support is predicated on an acknowledgment of the Messiah ("every knee shall bow") and they aren't ready for that yet.

[Doug Loss]

Yes, Doug, do what is right. That wasn't the context of the question.

I understand that. I was just making the point that it doesn't matter to what our actions should be. We must be internally guided, by faith and morality, to do what's right, not by a desire or expectation of any return for the doing.

[reed_inthe_wind]

I suspect that there are many grateful Israelis. So I agree with your point. But, a dialogue between Jews and Christian movie makers about the nature of a movie isn't something that should shatter international relations. It is possible that Foxman ran his mouth when he was under the perception that Christians (especially Evangelicals) didn't have such an emotional attachment to the movie. An Australian/Catholic movie star made a movie in Latin and Aramaic. The movie wasn't that big of a deal to a lot of people. In hind sight, Christians (who have been starved for artistic works) are making this movie a part of the culture.

[abu afak]

SJackson has sad that he is Appreciative for Christian support for Israel.
As an American Jew.. let me add that I am Deeply appreciative for that support and have spent time and money not only reciprocating for it, but myself supporting Christians and broadcasting on Dozens of message boards the Persecution, Cleansing, and Killing, they suffer at the hands of our Common Enemy.. ISLAM/ISLAMISM.

And as I have said dozens of Times..
Isreal is just a Tiny (if Important to me and others) spot on the Long Islamic Frontline, where, on average, hundreds die Every day.

Conservative Christians especially, recognize the common threat they share with Israel and Jews....where Israel, being on the Frontline, is paying a heavy price.

The title article in this string is also completely mistaken that Sharon has hurt Israel's Christian support.
REAL Christians take the same Hard Line Sharon does with Terrorism/Islamism; in fact, feel Sharon is a bit soft in some areas like the recent Gaza withdrawal.

[WaterDragon]

The Lefties hate both Christianity and Judaism, and one of their favorite tactics are to turn opponents against each other.

As for "gratitude," since when did America operate in anything but our own interests? That's exactly as we should operate. It is definitely in our own best interests to support Israel, a democracy in a sea of tyranny.

Europe does not support Israel, because Israel's very existence is a daily reminder that it is precisely BECAUSE of Europe's very recent barbarism that the state of Israel became a necessity.