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Kerry killed civilians
The New York Sun : Front Page Magazine
| March 1, 2004
| Thomas Lipscomb
Posted on 03/06/2004 5:19:54 PM PST by Cowman
Setting Straight Kerrys War Record
By Thomas Lipscomb
The New York Sun | March 1, 2004
Senator Kerry recently wrote a letter to President Bush complaining, You and your campaign have initiated a widespread attack on my service in Vietnam, my decision to speak out to end that war, and warning, I will not sit back and allow my patriotism to be challenged.
In the absence of any evidence from Mr. Kerry of an attack from the Bush campaign, Mr. Kerry seems to have originated his own doctrine of pre-emption. How valid are his concerns?
No one denies Mr. Kerrys four bemedaled months in Swiftboats or his seven-months service as an electrical officer on board the USS Gridley, during its cruises back and forth to California, or even his months as an admirals aide in Brooklyn, before he was able get out of the Navy six months early to run for office.
Taking a look at Mr. Kerrys much-promoted Vietnam service, his military record was, indeed, remarkable in many ways. Last week, the former assistant secretary of defense and Fletcher School of Diplomacy professor, W. Scott Thompson, recalled a conversation with the late Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. that clearly had a slightly different take on Mr. Kerrys recollection of their discussions:
[T]he fabled and distinguished chief of naval operations,Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, told me 30 years ago when he was still CNO that during his own command of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, just prior to his anointment as CNO, young Kerry had created great problems for him and the other top brass,by killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military targets.We had virtually to straitjacket him to keep him under control, the admiral said. Bud Zumwalt got it right when he assessed Kerry as having large ambitions but promised that his career in Vietnam would haunt him if he were ever on the national stage. And this statement was made despite the fact Zumwalt had personally pinned a Silver Star on Mr. Kerry.
Mr. Kerry was assigned to Swiftboat 44 on December 1, 1968. Within 24 hours, he had his first Purple Heart. Mr. Kerry accumulated three Purple Hearts in four months with not even a day of duty lost from wounds, according to his training officer. Its a pity one cannot read his Purple Heart medical treatment reports which have been withheld from the public. The only person preventing their release is Mr. Kerry.
By his own admission during those four months, Mr. Kerry continually kept ramming his Swiftboat onto an enemy-held shore on assorted occasions alone and with a few men, killing civilians and even a wounded enemy soldier. One can begin to appreciate Zumwalts problem with Mr. Kerry as commander of an unarmored craft dependent upon speed of maneuver to keep it and its crew from being shot to pieces.
Mr. Kerry now refers to those civilian deaths as accidents of war.And within four days of his third Purple Heart, Mr. Kerry applied to take advantage of a technicality which allowed him to request immediate transfer to a stateside post.
Once back in the States, Mr. Kerry joined the struggle for our veterans, as he called it last week in Atlanta, by joining a scruffy organization called the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. The VVAWs executive director, Al Hubbard, supposedly a former Air Force captain wounded in Vietnam, quickly appointed Mr. Kerry to the executive committee.
Mr. Kerry participated with the VVAW at agitprop rallies such as Valley Forge and the Winter Soldier guerrilla theater atrocity trials in Detroit, finally testifying in April 1971 before the Senate as an authority on the war crimes his fellow American servicemen had committed in Vietnam.
Outside of his own accidents of war, there is no evidence that Mr. Kerry had then or has now the least idea what may or may not have been the realities of ground combat. However, he had no problem reeling off for the Senate a series of unproven, secondhand allegations that would have been perfectly at home at the Nuremberg trials indicting his fellow veterans.
Mr. Kerry stated there were war crimes committed in Southeast Asia...not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-today basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
Then Mr. Kerry got specific:
They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam...we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free-fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam.
In other words, My Lai was just another day in the life of the Vietnam War.
This wasnt a one-time occasion. The VVAW had been peddling this line from the day Mr. Kerry joined them and had been publishing charges like this for the previous two years. Mr. Kerry repeated them on Meet the Press with Al Hubbard, who was found to be a total fraud and who never served in Vietnam, much less was wounded. However, Mr. Kerry has never renounced the charges he made.
Recently, his fellow VVAW supporter, Jane Fonda, has tried to minimize a potentially damaging picture of him a few rows behind her at the three-day VVAW Valley Forge rally in September 1970. And many members of the press fell for the line that it was accidental or coincidental, including Foxs Chris Wallace and ABCs Tim Russert.
However, there were only eight or nine speakers that day, including Donald Sutherland, Mark Lane, Bella Abzug, and Ms. Fonda. And far from being a casual audience member, Mr. Kerry, an executive committee member, not Ms. Fonda, was the lead speaker.
Ms. Fonda had been funding VVAW events since before Mr. Kerry joined its executive committee. At Valley Forge, Ms. Fonda said: My Lai was not an isolated incident but rather a way of life for many of our military.
Their appearance together in that picture may be a lot of things, but it was not a coincidence.
Mr. Kerry has already confessed his complicity in killing civilians as accidents of war. However, he has offered a classic Nuremberg defense that this was not only a commonplace occurrence throughout the Vietnam War, but he was carrying out a policy with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
His commander of naval operations in Vietnam, who specifically designed the mission that Mr. Kerry and the other Swiftboat commanders executed, Admiral Zumwalt, clearly disagreed. An examination of the truth behind this disagreement is not an attack on Mr. Kerry. It is a matter of vital historical interest.
TOPICS: News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Massachusetts
KEYWORDS: 1971; 2004; kerry; vvaw; waratrocities; warcriminal; wintersoldier; zumwalt
Let's hope W has some ads ready
1
posted on
03/06/2004 5:19:55 PM PST
by
Cowman
To: Cowman
where is the link??
2
posted on
03/06/2004 5:26:42 PM PST
by
KQQL
(@)
To: Cowman
"Let's hope W has some ads ready"
oh please President Bush wont attack Kerry for killing civilians
3
posted on
03/06/2004 5:30:20 PM PST
by
raloxk
To: Cowman
Who reads the NY Sun?
To: Cowman
...he has offered a classic Nuremberg defense that this was not only a commonplace
occurrence throughout the Vietnam War, but he was carrying out a policy with
the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
"I vas only following orders."
--John Forbes Kerry, on his self-admitted warcrimes in Vietnam
5
posted on
03/06/2004 5:36:22 PM PST
by
VOA
To: Cowman
There is no statute of limitations on murder.
6
posted on
03/06/2004 5:39:14 PM PST
by
ambrose
("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
To: raloxk
oh please President Bush wont attack Kerry for killing civiliansNew Tone = Dims get to rape and pillage and suffer no consequences; Republicans have use the cat-o-nine tails for any and every imagined faux pas.
7
posted on
03/06/2004 5:43:52 PM PST
by
Paul Atreides
(Is it really so difficult to post the entire article?)
To: raloxk
Of course Bush won't bring up the accusation that Kerry slaughtered Vietnamese civilians.
Kerry brought the accusation against himself.
Man, is that schizo, or what.
When your rival is doing an excellent job of destroying his own credibility, don't get in his way.
To: ambrose
There is no statute of limitations on murder. Or War Crimes.
Do you think it would look too political if the Justice Department were to indict him right after the convention?
So9
9
posted on
03/06/2004 5:55:20 PM PST
by
Servant of the 9
(Screwing the Inscrutable or is it Scruting the Inscrewable?)
To: Servant of the 9
Maybe just a tad.
10
posted on
03/06/2004 5:56:34 PM PST
by
ambrose
("John Kerry has blood of American soldiers on his hands" - Lt. Col. Oliver North)
To: Cowman
Why Is Kerry Afraid To Open His Service Records?Bush Opened His Service Records.
To: Cowman
This is a serious charge that appears to have legs if Admiral Zumwalt's comments are true. It should be investigated. If corroborated, this may explain in part Kerry's 'made up' allegations of widespread war crimes committed daily in Vietman under the auspices of the U.S. Military. By spreading such lies it would tend to diminish the seriousness of the atrocities he is alleged to have committed. This is typical behavior of the left. If everyone was doing it, then it was okay. So if you can set the context with lies to mask your own evil deeds, you might get away without any punishment. We saw this behavior in the Clintons.
I think we should demand to hear from his crewmen, under oath.
Let's see how the Extreme Leftist Press at the New York Times, Washington Post, and L.A. Times play this one out.
12
posted on
03/06/2004 5:59:25 PM PST
by
Fithee
To: Cowman
>Mr. Kerry applied to take advantage of a technicality which allowed him to request immediate transfer to a stateside post. <
.
Somebody, please inform us as to the details of this
'technicality'.
To: Fithee
I think we should demand to hear from his crewmen, under oath.
-----
What do you want to bet that they're all dead? Suicides all.
14
posted on
03/06/2004 6:18:32 PM PST
by
gooleyman
(You'll NEVER agree with ANYONE about EVERYTHING. You'll NEVER agree with a DemocRAT about ANYTHING)
To: raloxk
I agree!
15
posted on
03/06/2004 6:19:59 PM PST
by
CyberAnt
(The 2004 Election is for the SOUL of AMERICA)
To: Cowman
16
posted on
03/06/2004 6:23:04 PM PST
by
Ragirl
(Vote in '04 ! Those who sit on their hands end up with poop on them.)
To: greasepaint
Somebody, please inform us as to the details of this 'technicality' You could request a transfer out of Nam if you had accumulated 3 Purple Hearts.
To: Cowman
Mr. Kerry participated with the VVAW at agitprop rallies such as Valley Forge and the Winter Soldier guerrilla theater atrocity trials in Detroit, finally testifying in April 1971 before the Senate as an authority on the war crimes his fellow American servicemen had committed in Vietnam.
When you testify before the Senate, aren't you sworn in??
And if your testimony is proven to be fraudulent, are you not in contempt??
Sounds as if this guy is looking for trouble, I don't think he can be this reckless.
18
posted on
03/06/2004 6:27:48 PM PST
by
ThreePuttinDude
(......Haiti..another trophy for Clintons mantle.......)
To: Bonaparte
Kerry is afraid, because, as an officer, he can put himself in for medals, which could be the case. I agree, that he should disclose his military record as the media forced Bush into! Bush couldn't hide, so why should Kerry get a pass?
19
posted on
03/06/2004 6:29:56 PM PST
by
Smartass
To: Fithee

This is a serious charge that appears to have legs if Admiral Zumwalt's comments are true. It should be investigated. If corroborated, this may explain in part Kerry's 'made up' allegations of widespread war crimes committed daily in Vietman under the auspices of the U.S. Military. By spreading such lies it would tend to diminish the seriousness of the atrocities he is alleged to have committed.
I don't think that's quite it. Kerry didn't make up his numbers; he projected them from his own experience. The enormous atrocities John Kerry attributed to the U.S. Military would be accurate, if the U.S. Military had a lot more John Kerrys. That's why Kerry never reported the atrocities in Vietnam to which he later testified in Congress: his own complicity.
|
20
posted on
03/06/2004 6:32:29 PM PST
by
Sabertooth
(Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
To: gooleyman
If it looks like he'll win someone (clintons) will make sure this comes out.
To: KQQL
22
posted on
03/06/2004 6:36:19 PM PST
by
ThreePuttinDude
(......Haiti..another trophy for Clintons mantle.......)
To: greasepaint
Somebody, please inform us as to the details of this 'technicality'. Three wounds earned you a ticket home. In this case there were two to the arm and one to the left thigh. Shrapnel, mostly.
To: ThreePuttinDude
You hit kerry right on his head. Anyone that testifies before the House or Senate must take an oath to tell the truth. John Forbes Kerry lied and lied and lied. Why he was never held accountable for perjury and worst of all ... giving aid and comfort to the enemy is a 64 dollar question! If you or I admitted to murder, we would be hung upside down for forty days and forty nights!!! And this BOZO is one of our U.S. Senators.
24
posted on
03/06/2004 6:44:01 PM PST
by
Smartass
To: Smartass
You are soooo right. What I wrote in post 11 should be publicly plastered over every available surface in the country. It should be pinned to every Republican's chest right up till election day. It should be sent to every editor of every news outlet. The media is giving Kerry a pass on this after skewering Bush on the same question. If we let them get away with it, we have only ourselves to blame.
To: Smartass
"...is a 64 dollar question!"Because Ted Kennedy and the other radical leftists running the democratic party protected him, while Cronkite and his fellow commies in the mass media covered.
Where's my $64?
To: Sabertooth
I think a serious investigation of his "band of brothers" is in order. We know from Kerry's own statements that he got them safe assignments until they were due for rotation.
How did he do that? Who helped him? Why did he feel it was necessary?
And now, as he is running for president, these same vets reappear. How do they have the money to fly around the country? Who is funding them? How large are their bank accounts?
To: Sabertooth
I get so confused about what Bob Kerrey did, and what John Kerry did. I know that Bob is a unindicted war criminal (don't try to persuade me otherwise, on this one I have made up my mind). I don't know what John did. Do you?
28
posted on
03/06/2004 7:01:30 PM PST
by
Torie
To: Miss Marple

And now, as he is running for president, these same vets reappear. How do they have the money to fly around the country? Who is funding them?
A soccer mom.
|
29
posted on
03/06/2004 7:03:58 PM PST
by
Sabertooth
(Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
To: Sabertooth
LOL! That's probably the answer.
To: Cowman
bump
31
posted on
03/06/2004 7:09:17 PM PST
by
VOA
To: Torie

I don't know what John did. Do you?
Assuming the Zumwalt quotes in the article above are true, I think John Kerry did what he accused other, unnamed soldiers of doing. If he knew of military personnel committing atrocities in Vietnam, he had an obligation under the military code of cunduct to report them. He never did. There can only be one of three reasons: 1. He's lying. 2. He's covering for someone. 3. He's complicit in atrocities. We already know he fatally shot a wounded and probably dying VC when he ran his swift boat up on the beach. That's in violation of the rules of war. What other rules did he violate?
|
32
posted on
03/06/2004 7:10:00 PM PST
by
Sabertooth
(Malcontent for Bush - 2004!)
To: Smartass
He has been sponsored by Kennedy all these years.
Maybe Kennedy sent him to Nam to Make his bones.
33
posted on
03/06/2004 7:11:51 PM PST
by
philetus
(Keep doing what you always do and you'll keep getting what you always get)
To: Sabertooth
I wonder is John Kerry was perhaps a Rogue Officer and out of control. Much of his testimony before congress were blatant lies about our military. However, if what he said about himself and implied about himself is true, HE IS A WAR CRIMINAL.
As an aside I would like to point out something about the Me Lai massacre. It was other Army troops that drew their guns on American Soldiers that stopped the killing. Yes,there is the rare out of control officer. However, the vast majority of our service men are good honorable soldiers that do what is right at the risk of their lives.
34
posted on
03/06/2004 7:12:46 PM PST
by
cpdiii
(Rph, Geologist, Oilfield Trash and proud of it.)
To: All; mohresearcher
Boston Globe, 09/16/03 " Candidate in the Making " Part 2
"To top it off, Kerry said, he had gone several miles inside Cambodia, which theoretically was off limits, prompting Kerry to send a sarcastic message to his superiors that he was writing from the Navy's "most inland" unit."
"Back at his base, a weary, disconsolate Kerry sat at his typewriter, as he often did, and poured out his grief. "You hope that they'll courtmartial you or something because that would make sense," Kerry typed that night."
"In an intense three months of combat following that Christmas Eve battle, Kerry often would go beyond his Navy orders and beach his boat, in one case chasing and killing a teenage Viet Cong enemy who wore only a loin cloth and carried a rocket launcher."
" Kerry's aggressiveness in combat caused a commanding officer to wonder whether he should be given a medal or court-martialed."
" Kerry would watch in despair as a crewmate killed a boy who may or may not have been an innocent civilian."
"Along with Kerry's unquestionable and repeated bravery, he also took an action that has received far less notice:"
" He requested and was granted a transfer out of Vietnam six months before his combat tour was slated to end on the grounds that he had earned three Purple Hearts."
" None of his wounds was disabling; he said one cost him two days of service and the other two did not lead to any absence."
"He enlisted as a Navy officer candidate despite his criticisms as Yale's class orator of America's intervention in Southeast Asia."
" He would become a war hero,( prove it, release your full records-WIR ) recipient of the Silver and Bronze stars, but would also become an antiwar leader, causing some former crewmates to feel he had betrayed them."
"In an effort to understand a fuller picture of Kerry's combat in Vietnam, the Globe examined thousands of recently declassified Naval documents; interviewed sailors who served alongside Kerry; conducted four interviews with Kerry; and read some previously unreleased journal entries and letters SELECTED by the senator."
" So Kerry, who sought in so many ways to emulate John Fitzgerald Kennedy, took to the water, just as his idol served on a World War II patrol boat, the 109."
"Kerry served two tours. For a relatively uneventful six months, from December 1967 to June 1968, he served in the electrical department aboard the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate that supported aircraft carriers in the Gulf of Tonkin and was far removed from combat."
"I didn't have any real feel for what the heck was going on [in the war]," Kerry has recalled. His ship returned to its Long Beach, Calif., port on June 6, 1968.."
" The antiwar protests were growing. But within five months Kerry was heading back to Vietnam, seeking to fulfill his officer commitment despite his growing misgivings about the war."
"Kerry initially hoped to continue his service at a relatively safe distance from most fighting, securing an assignment as "swift boat" skipper."
" While the 50-foot swift boats cruised the Vietnamese coast a little closer to the action than the Gridley had come, they were still considered relatively safe."
"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," Kerry said in a little-noticed contribution to a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986."
"When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."
"The swift boat crew typically consisted of a college-educated skipper, such as Kerry, and five blue-collar sailors averaging 19 years old."
"The most vulnerable sailor sat in the "tub" -- a squat nest that rose above the pilot house -- and operated a pair of .50-caliber machine guns."
" Another gunner was in the rear. Kerry's mission was to wait until hidden Viet Cong guerrillas started shooting, then order his men to return fire."
" When Zumwalt decorated an officer who took the extraordinary risk of running the rivers, Kerry took notice."
"Kerry was slightly wounded on his arm, earning his first Purple Heart on his first day of serious action."
"It was not a very serious wound at all," recalled William Schachte, who oversaw the mission and went on to become a rear admiral."
" But he first learned to skipper on the 44, and he conducted the wrenching Christmas Eve mission in which the old man in the river was probably killed in the crossfire."
"Kerry said in a recent interview that he didn't remember anything about the elderly man in the water, noting that he sometimes couldn't see all of the action."
" But Wasser, who says his memory of the event remains vivid, reminded Kerry about it when the pair met earlier this year and talked about the mission for the first time in many years."
" Wasser remains haunted by the image of the man being shot: "I don't even enjoy Christmas anymore," he said.
"Kerry, asked about Whitlow's account, said he had no recollection of the episode and wondered whether Whitlow was confusing it with another event or whether he was with Whitlow on that occasion."
" Naval records do not resolve the matter."
"After being told about Whitlow's recollection by the Globe, Kerry discussed the matter with Whitlow and said he still doesn't remember it."
The article details another incident where the crew fired upon a 12 year old boy and his mother on shore, thinking they were VC.
Kerry claimed he called a halt to the firing and rescued the mother,when he realized that they were innocent civilians.The fate of the 12 yr old boy remains unknown.
"The details of the episode are murky, however, because none of Kerry's crewmates remembers it the way Kerry does."
"The closest recollection comes from William Zaladonis, a crewmate on No. 44 who vividly recalls killing a 15-year-old boy, but does not remember a mother being rescued."
"In any case, Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk."
" So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr."
''We were fighting the [free fire] policy very, very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions, to the point where crews were starting to mutiny, [to] say, `I would not go back in the rivers again,''' Kerry recalled during a 1971 television appearance on the Dick Cavett Show."
A logical question-did Kerry threaten mutiny ?
"On Feb. 20, 1969, Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a shrapnel wound in his left thigh."
"According to a previously unreported Navy report on the battle, a two-boat patrol spotted three men on a riverbank who were wearing black pajamas and running and engaged them in a firefight."
" While not criticizing this engagement, the Navy report did challenge the decision of "unnamed skippers" to fire at other "targets of opportunity" in the area."
"Area seemed extremely prosperous and open to psyops action, minimum number of defensive and no offensive bunkers detected," the report said."
" The naval official who wrote the report concluded: "Future missions in this area should be oriented toward psyops rather than destruction."
Later,there was another engagement-maybe.
"Instead of retreating, Kerry turned his boat directly toward hidden snipers, then beached the boat, and ordered an assault party onshore."
" This was not standard procedure. "
"The swift boat crews weren't trained to fight on the muddy landscape; their shoes were closer to deck wear than combat boots."
"None of that deterred Kerry."
" With a second swift boat providing support, Medeiros and Kerry rushed ashore and found what they thought was a Viet Cong guerrilla inside a bunker."
" After Kerry sought a surrender, Medeiros threw a grenade."
" The two assumed an enemy had been killed, although Medeiros said he never saw the victim and wonders now whether it could have been an animal."
The article details more engagements.
"When Kerry returned to his base, his commanding officer, George Elliott, raised an issue with Kerry: the fine line between whether the action merited a medal or a court-martial."
"When [Kerry] came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when [Kerry] came back and I heard his debrief, I said,
`John, I don't know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,"' Elliott recalled in an interview."
Elliot goes on to detail why he eventually decided to give Kerry the Silver Star.
"Kerry had been wounded three times and received three Purple Hearts."
" Asked about the severity of the wounds, Kerry said that one of them cost him about two days of service, and that the other two did not interrupt his duty."
"Walking wounded," as Kerry put it."
" A shrapnel wound in his left arm gave Kerry pain for years."
" Kerry declined a request from the Globe to sign a waiver authorizing the release of military documents that are covered under the Privacy Act and that might shed more light on the extent of the treatment Kerry needed as a result of the wounds."
"There were an awful lot of Purple Hearts -- from shrapnel, some of those might have been M-40 grenades," said Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer."
"The Purple Hearts were coming down in boxes. Kerry, he had three Purple Hearts. None of them took him off duty. Not to belittle it, that was more the rule than the exception."
"But Kerry thought he had seen and done enough."
" The rules, he said, allowed a thrice-wounded soldier to return to the United States immediately."
" So Kerry went to talk to Commodore Charles F. Horne, an administrative official and commander of the coastal squadron in which Kerry served."
" Horne filled out a document on March 17, 1969, that said Kerry "has been thrice wounded in action while on duty incountry Vietnam."
" Reassignment is requested ... as a personal aide in Boston, New York, or Wash., D.C. area."
The document notes that Kerry was "presently on full-duty status and available for reassignment "
To: Sabertooth
Probably a combo of 1 and 2. If you can find some evidence of 3, you have it pay dirt. I am beginning to think that Kerry is as much of a pathological liar as Clinton. Clinton was a liar because he was an insecure human being, that wanted folks to like him in an unhealthy way. I don't want everybody to like me. Kerry is a liar because he has that lean and hungry look.
36
posted on
03/06/2004 7:19:47 PM PST
by
Torie
To: Sabertooth
"We already know he fatally shot a wounded and probably dying VC when he ran his swift boat up on the beach. That's in violation of the rules of war."
It is not a violation of the Law of Armed Conflict to shoot a wounded dying enemy in general. If the enemy in question is trying to surrender, it would be. Since the action in this situation was apparently not in view of the crew according to the reports, we don't know if he shot an active combatant, a surrendering soldier or pumped a few rounds into a dead man. (The guy had apparently been hit by a fifty.)
I don't like horsehead either, but thousands of wounded men have been lawfully killed in our history by American soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen.
37
posted on
03/06/2004 7:56:56 PM PST
by
xone
To: anniegetyourgun
Who reads the NY Sun? What is the New York Sun?
To: Torie; All
39
posted on
03/06/2004 8:40:46 PM PST
by
getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL
("Do not come to America to live off the law-abiding American taxpayer." -- Newt Gingrich)
To: diotima
Get the truth out about Kerry ping!
40
posted on
03/06/2004 8:49:23 PM PST
by
NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
(Michael <a href = "http://www.michaelmoore.com/" title="Miserable Failure">"Miserable Failure"</a>)
To: Sabertooth
bttt!
41
posted on
03/07/2004 12:55:43 AM PST
by
lainde
(Heads up...We're coming and we've got tongue blades!!)
To: Wild Irish Rogue
I just finished reading Douglas Brinkley's book "Tour of Duty." Senator Kerry supplied most of the material about Kerry's war experiences in Vietnam, and Brinkley adds snippets from other published sources (mostly from a leftist perspective, but excluding extensive coverage by the Communist Party newspaper Daily World, which glorified Kerry's antiwar activities in 1971.) Anyway, I was particularly interested in knowing the details of the three Purple Hearts that Kerry was awarded for supposed combat wounds.
Most of the men that I knew personally or read about were dead on their third Purple Heart wound in Vietnam. I am an Army veteran, and most combat units had strict rules prohibiting Rambo wannabes from claiming the Purple Heart for scratches from shrapnel that could be covered with a Band-Aid.
Brinkley writes about Kerry's first Purple Heart on pp. 146-148. The so-called action happened on December 2, 1968 in the DaNang area. Brinkley's description is glaringly vague, and Brinkley does not report any other crewmen being injured. Kerry didn't need any hospitalization for that injury, which most Army and Marine combat veterans would find suspicious. Wags might call this event Kerry's personal Gulf of Tonkin incident.
The second Purple Heart wound was on February 20, 1969 in the Delta, covered on pp. 280-288. There was enemy action recorded in detail, and Kerry had another minor shrapnel wound, for which he did not need hospitalization. Again, he was the only one injured. Why is he the only one very slightly wounded?
The third Purple Heart was on March 13, 1969, also in the Delta. It was a legitimate combat wound from my reading of Brinkley's description of the action on pp. 304-317. If I read this section carefully, Kerry was the only one injured on his Swift boat. Brinkley records others injured on other boats in the engagement.
So, inquiring minds must be pondering: which came first, Kerry reading Navy regs to learn that if you had three awards of the Purple Heart you could get out of Vietnam pronto; or, a deliberate strategy on his part to get his return ticket punched a third time so he could abandon his crewmates and bug out after only four months in a combat zone?
On 3-7-04 C-SPAN had a taped program of Douglas Brinkley talking before a group of veterans and their friends in California about "Tour of Duty," including Kerry crewmate Michael Medeiros, who was asked by Brinley to talk about some of the enemy action. Mike seems like a very normal, well-adjusted veteran, proud of his wartime service, and definitely not a wanton killer that Kerry characterized all Vietnam veterans in his Congressional testimony in April, 1971. Medeiros mentioned that his fellow crewmates all returned alive at the end of their individual tours of duty. Medeiros made no comments about Kerry leaving eight months early on the third Purple Heart technicality.
Brinkley goes on to paint a very sympathetic portrait of Kerry's antiwar activities in 1971 and thereafter. Most disappointing to this conservative reader was the absence of anything about how the antiwar activities of Kerry and Jane Fonda were used by the North Vietnamese to demoralize our POWs in Hanoi and also in the jungles in the South, and kept them captive under brutal conditions for two more years until the combined diplomatic and military policies of President Nixon resulted in the release of our POWs in 1973.
To: Wild Irish Rogue
I just finished reading Douglas Brinkley's book "Tour of Duty." Senator Kerry supplied most of the material about Kerry's war experiences in Vietnam, and Brinkley adds snippets from other published sources (mostly from a leftist perspective, but excluding extensive coverage by the Communist Party newspaper Daily World, which glorified Kerry's antiwar activities in 1971.) Anyway, I was particularly interested in knowing the details of the three Purple Hearts that Kerry was awarded for supposed combat wounds.
Most of the men that I knew personally or read about were dead on their third Purple Heart wound in Vietnam. I am an Army veteran, and most combat units had strict rules prohibiting Rambo wannabes from claiming the Purple Heart for scratches from shrapnel that could be covered with a Band-Aid.
Brinkley writes about Kerry's first Purple Heart on pp. 146-148. The so-called action happened on December 2, 1968 in the DaNang area. Brinkley's description is glaringly vague, and Brinkley does not report any other crewmen being injured. Kerry didn't need any hospitalization for that injury, which most Army and Marine combat veterans would find suspicious. Wags might call this event Kerry's personal Gulf of Tonkin incident.
The second Purple Heart wound was on February 20, 1969 in the Delta, covered on pp. 280-288. There was enemy action recorded in detail, and Kerry had another minor shrapnel wound, for which he did not need hospitalization. Again, he was the only one injured. Why is he the only one very slightly wounded?
The third Purple Heart was on March 13, 1969, also in the Delta. It was a legitimate combat wound from my reading of Brinkley's description of the action on pp. 304-317. If I read this section carefully, Kerry was the only one injured on his Swift boat. Brinkley records others injured on other boats in the engagement.
So, inquiring minds must be pondering: which came first, Kerry reading Navy regs to learn that if you had three awards of the Purple Heart you could get out of Vietnam pronto; or, a deliberate strategy on his part to get his return ticket punched a third time so he could abandon his crewmates and bug out after only four months in a combat zone?
On 3-7-04 C-SPAN had a taped program of Douglas Brinkley talking before a group of veterans and their friends in California about "Tour of Duty," including Kerry crewmate Michael Medeiros, who was asked by Brinley to talk about some of the enemy action. Mike seems like a very normal, well-adjusted veteran, proud of his wartime service, and definitely not a wanton killer that Kerry characterized all Vietnam veterans in his Congressional testimony in April, 1971. Medeiros mentioned that his fellow crewmates all returned alive at the end of their individual tours of duty. Medeiros made no comments about Kerry leaving eight months early on the third Purple Heart technicality.
Brinkley goes on to paint a very sympathetic portrait of Kerry's antiwar activities in 1971 and thereafter. Most disappointing to this conservative reader was the absence of anything about how the antiwar activities of Kerry and Jane Fonda were used by the North Vietnamese to demoralize our POWs in Hanoi and also in the jungles in the South, and kept them captive under brutal conditions for two more years until the combined diplomatic and military policies of President Nixon resulted in the release of our POWs in 1973.
To: mohresearcher
" The second Purple Heart wound was on February 20, 1969 in the Delta, covered on pp. 280-288. There was enemy action recorded in detail, and Kerry had another minor shrapnel wound, for which he did not need hospitalization. Again, he was the only one injured. Why is he the only one very slightly wounded? "
"The third Purple Heart was on March 13, 1969, also in the Delta. It was a legitimate combat wound from my reading of Brinkley's description of the action on pp. 304-317. If I read this section carefully, Kerry was the only one injured on his Swift boat. Brinkley records others injured on other boats in the engagement "
Kerry is the ONLY ONE INJURED-on 2 separate occasions and this hasn't raised any red flags ??? You have to wonder if Kerry's crewmates had any idea what Kerry was doing behind the scenes, as far as putting in for medals, writing reports etc.
There is a real stench around Kerry-it is becoming obvious, to those the least bit interested in following the story, that Kerry's wartime actions need to be scrutinized, as much as his post service activities.
The media has one source for all of Kerry's heroics- Kerry himself.
Kerry must authorize the military to release his full military record.
In the Boston Globe series- there were always two distinct versions of a number of firefights- the crew's memory and Kerry's version. Kerry has pimped his crewmates and it's a shame that they just sit back and take it.
I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but, apparently Time.com has an update on Kerry's crew-there was a 10th crewmember that Brinkley missed and he interviews this man. The man's recollections of Kerry's actions are not complimentary, which is why they have recieved so little notice.
I received this yesterday. I can't access the AF database, so I can't vouch for the authenticity of the parties. But, I trust those who sent it to me.
KEEP THIS MOVING ACROSS AMERICA - HONORING A TRAITOR
This is for all the kids born in the 70's that do not remember this, and
didn't have to bear the burden, that our fathers, mothers, and older
brothers and sisters had to bear. Jane Fonda is being nominated as one of
the "100 Women of the Century." Unfortunately, many have forgotten and
still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the
idea of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during
Vietnam.
The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry
Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival
School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a
stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJ's, he was
ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient
and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed,
and dragged away.
During the subsequent beating, he fell forward upon the camp Commandant's
feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered
from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the
Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton.
>From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He spent 6
years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action".
His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the
cleaned, fed, clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation"
visit.
They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that
they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN
on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a
cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little
encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are
you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?"
Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper.
She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once
the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she
turned to the officer in charge and handed him the little pile of papers.
Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col. Carrigan was almost
number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her
actions that day.
I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured
by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for
over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a
cage in Cambodia, and one year in a "black box" in Hanoi. My North
Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary,
a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in
the jungle near the Cambodian border.
At the time, I weighed approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170
lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals."
When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, the camp communist political officer asked me
if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would
like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received; different from
the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane
Fonda, as "humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a
rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel
placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped. I
had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I
was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She
did not answer me.
This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years
of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never
include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many
patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but
Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
Please take the time to forward to as many people as you possibly can. It
will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that we will
never forget.
RONALD D. SAMPSON, CMSgt, USAF
716 Maintenance Squadron, Chief of Maintenance
DSN: 875-6431
COMM: 883-6343
PLEASE HELP BY SENDING THIS TO EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK. IF ENOUGH
PEOPLE SEE THIS MAYBE HANOI JANE'S STATUS WILL CHANGE.
DAVID M COUNTS, MSgt, USAF retired.
To: gooleyman
Who are his crewmen?
45
posted on
03/10/2004 7:52:30 PM PST
by
rwfromkansas
("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
To: SauronOfMordor
Interesting. I thought it just happened when you got three awards; it turns out you had to request it.
So, Mr. "brave" Kerry actually wasn't so brave after all and decided to take a hike after getting his medals? Interesting...
46
posted on
03/10/2004 7:53:56 PM PST
by
rwfromkansas
("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
To: Smartass
Are you saying that Kerry may have been the one who reccommended his own purple hearts???!!!
Now that is a story.
I must confess that this dude is getting me excited with the crap that can be dug up and reported about him. Wow.
47
posted on
03/10/2004 7:55:44 PM PST
by
rwfromkansas
("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
To: ArmstedFragg
Was it automatic or did you have to request to be sent home?
If the latter like someone said earlier, this is another thing that can be used against him.
48
posted on
03/10/2004 7:57:29 PM PST
by
rwfromkansas
("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
To: Wild Irish Rogue
will have to check out the Time article.
It sounds like Kerry may have paid or did something to get the rest of the crew to shut up.
49
posted on
03/10/2004 8:07:21 PM PST
by
rwfromkansas
("Men stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up as if nothing had happened." Churchill)
To: rwfromkansas
So, Mr. "brave" Kerry actually wasn't so brave after all and decided to take a hike after getting his medals? Interesting... Kerry wasn't smart enough to figure out a way to get out of going to Nam entirely, but he did figure out a way to make his stay as short as possible.
Kerry no hero in ex-crewman's eyes
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