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It's religion gone mad
Toronto Sun ^ | April 17, 2004 | Michael Coren

Posted on 04/17/2004 5:17:31 AM PDT by Clive

HOW DOES one discuss the state of the Islamic faith, the Middle East, terrorism and the world without upsetting people? Frankly, it's almost impossible.

I'm not talking here of a fear of abuse and attack or of being accused of political incorrectness. I couldn't give a fig about that. No, I mean the need to hold on to common courtesy and avoiding making generalizations that could hurt good people.

Here are some recent examples, in that I have so little room to discuss this issue in full.

We used to be told by pop stars and other philosophers that "the Russians love their children too." It was self-evident then that all people loved their young. Now I'm not so sure. Do the Palestinians, for example, love their children too?

I should think most of them do.

But I have to be candid: many of them don't. We can't just rely on tired old relativism when we look at all this. Nobody who loves his or her child will send that little being out as a suicide bomber. Nobody who loves their children will line them up in front of tanks.

The natural instinct of a loving parent is to hide the children. Armed struggle and resistance I can understand, even if I do not approve. This, though, is something different. I've seen it myself. Mothers screaming for their tiny offspring to come out of the house, stand in front of Israeli patrols and throw stones at soldiers.

I take here no position on the causes of Israelis or Palestinians, but I do on the moral substance of a parent who would send children to fight the battles of adults.

Do not, please, tell me they have no option. There are legions of young Palestinian men willing to kill Israelis. It's just that children can sometimes be undetected. And are easily convinced of the delights of paradise in the world to come when, I quote, "Zionist skulls, blood and limbs fly against the walls."

British Muslim fundamentalists planned terror attacks and arrests were made in Ilford, England, my hometown. Boring Ilford may be, but nobody is oppressed there! Muslims who grew up with British democracy, free British health care, free British education and British tolerance have no reason to kill anyone, let alone those who gave them such privilege.

Remember, these people came to Britain, as they did to Canada, the United States and the rest of the free, Christian-based world to escape Islamic states and their harshness.

It is the pluralistic openness and decency of Europe and North America that has allowed so many Muslim immigrants. How ironic that a minority of those people hate that very pluralism and decency and want to slaughter women and children in the name of their god and their cause.

I opposed the war in Iraq, but I cannot remain silent when people kill contract workers, then disembowel and hang them from wires in the street. While children dance.

And, no, these murderers are not refugees from pain but the favoured sons of Saddam. Their fight is to restore fascism, not liberate their nation. Even if it was, nothing justifies such sadism.

German bomber pilots, their planes shot down, would parachute into London after destroying entire towns and killing thousands of people. Almost without exception they were treated properly, as prisoners of war.

It's not about colonization, globalization, Zionism, American dominance or any other cliches. The Muslims themselves are colonizers, having pushed most Christians out of the Middle and near East, once the cradle of the Christian world.

The Ottoman Turks, Muslims all, colonized the region for centuries. Arabs colonized Persians, Assyrians, Kurds and others. The Saudis, sponsors of so much terror, are nobody's victims. They are wealthy beyond belief, and deprive women and minorities of most basic civil rights.

This is something deeper, darker, than an imagined fight against a foreign foe. There is a virus at work. For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority -- we cannot pretend any longer it's about anything other than what it is: a religion gone mad and gone bad.

Stop the lies, they only make it worse.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: islam; radicalislam
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 04/17/2004 5:17:32 AM PDT by Clive
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To: Great Dane; Alberta's Child; headsonpikes; coteblanche; Ryle; albertabound; mitchbert; ...
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2 posted on 04/17/2004 5:17:56 AM PDT by Clive
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To: Clive
Fa'kallah, deth'tislam.

End terrorism, kill terrorists.



3 posted on 04/17/2004 5:21:02 AM PDT by MrBambaLaMamba (Buy 'Allah' brand urinal cakes - If you can't kill the enemy at least you can piss on their god)
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To: Clive
Reality is percieved.
4 posted on 04/17/2004 5:23:02 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: Clive
The Muslims themselves are colonizers, having pushed most Christians out of the Middle and near East, once the cradle of the Christian world.


This is exactly what they are trying to achieve-Islamic domination and the rest of the free world has been sitting back allowing it to happen. This is what George W Bush is trying to prevent from happening but some people just won't get it until they are forced to pray 5 times a day and wear burkas.
5 posted on 04/17/2004 5:24:51 AM PDT by LoudRepublicangirl (loudrepublicangirl)
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To: Clive
A huge Amen and Bump!
6 posted on 04/17/2004 5:27:31 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: Clive
This is something deeper, darker, than an imagined fight against a foreign foe. ... a religion gone mad and gone bad.

I don't see that Islam has "gone" anywhere. It's doing what it's always done, and for the same reasons.

7 posted on 04/17/2004 5:30:14 AM PDT by angkor
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To: Clive
For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority --

Very debatable. To be a Muslem, you must accept the duty of spreading this religion till it alone exists. It is hard to see how a person can be a muslem and NOT applaud the goals, if not the means, of the terrorists, the slavers, the attackers of Mollucan villagers , the gang rapists in the EU and Australia...

we cannot pretend any longer it's about anything other than what it is: a religion gone mad and gone bad.

Agreed. I've loathed Islam since the 1980s, and it's been wonderful seeing more and more people who've come to feel the same way. It sounds absolutely horrible to say this , but....I wonder if future generations will give the credit for saving the west to Osama bin Laden? His timing was terrible! If he struck during the WJC regime, who knows what might have happened. And if he waited a few more years-say, 2010-there would have been more muslems infesting western Europe and North America-maybe enough to tie the hands of the governments, and prevent them from dealing with Islamic terrorism at all. As it is, he may have-MAY HAVE-given us enough advance warning as to the true intentions of muslem immigrants to the west. And possibly, we can prevent Islam from being the "future of the west", as those vile banners have proclaimed in cities throughout Europe .

8 posted on 04/17/2004 5:33:49 AM PDT by kaylar
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To: angkor
Exactly correct. Islam is the most recent of three related religions, yet it holds firm to the most archaic practices.
9 posted on 04/17/2004 5:34:02 AM PDT by cripplecreek (you tell em i'm commin.... and hells commin with me.)
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To: Clive
Not only are the parents putting their children in harm's way, but the parents are getting paid BIG SAUDI OIL BUCKS for this.
10 posted on 04/17/2004 5:36:10 AM PDT by tkathy (nihilism: absolute destructiveness toward the world at large and oneself)
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To: Clive
Michael Coren has now said what cannot be said. And he's right.
11 posted on 04/17/2004 5:39:36 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Faster than a speeding building! Able to leap tall bullets in a single bound!)
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To: Clive
Oh,brother..He's really going to be called on the carpet for telling the truth.We may have to send bail money to get him out of the "hate speech",political correctness reeducation camp!
12 posted on 04/17/2004 5:43:48 AM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: Clive
Pretty brave of Coren to publish this in Toronto where there are known Al Quaeda cells and many many muslims and their sympathizers.

May the truth set them free.

13 posted on 04/17/2004 5:43:52 AM PDT by eleni121 (Preempt and Prevent---then Destroy)
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To: Clive
One can't solve a problem until the problem is detected and properly defined. Most world leaders refuse to acknowledge the real problem. Just going back five years most terrorist attacks have been conducted by radical Muslims. The war on terror should not be limited to al Qaeda and must be stated to include all terrorists.
14 posted on 04/17/2004 5:47:44 AM PDT by monocle
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To: eleni121
"May the truth set them free."

I'm starting to think that nuking the borg cube they worship in Mecca might be the answer.
15 posted on 04/17/2004 5:48:31 AM PDT by cripplecreek (you tell em i'm commin.... and hells commin with me.)
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To: Clive
You realize of course that this thread is sooo... politically incorrect. Don't you?
16 posted on 04/17/2004 5:52:21 AM PDT by expatguy (Fallujah Delenda Est!!)
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To: cripplecreek
I'm starting to think that nuking the borg cube they worship in Mecca might be the answer

Given the violence and horror Muslims are responsible for, that possibility has crossed the minds of many. America ended Japanese savagery by nuking them, why not these monsters who are many times worse. And I'm not sure how destroying the "cube" will affect the hordes.

17 posted on 04/17/2004 5:54:03 AM PDT by eleni121 (Preempt and Prevent---then Destroy)
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To: Clive
Is it a coincidence that, in the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union and, with it, the "bipolar" model of world political order, we now see the emergence of a new set of challenges based on even more obvious forms of self-hatred than was Communism? I am speaking here of islam, homosexuality, and militant environmentalism (ALF, Earth First, PETA).

That Islam is based on self-loathing is obvious to me, given the Palestinan attitude to their own children. They project their own opinion of themselves onto their children, whom they send out to die, all the while collecting money from people who hate them as much as they hate themselves.

(steely)

18 posted on 04/17/2004 5:56:23 AM PDT by Steely Tom
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To: Clive
bump
19 posted on 04/17/2004 5:59:25 AM PDT by Skooz (My Biography: Psalm 40:1-3)
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To: Clive
I opposed the war in Iraq,

After reading his own article I wonder if he has changed his mind?

20 posted on 04/17/2004 6:02:11 AM PDT by Diva
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To: Clive

HOMERUN


21 posted on 04/17/2004 6:03:58 AM PDT by Enduring Freedom (Thomas Kean - Useful Idiot)
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To: angkor
"I don't see that Islam has "gone" anywhere. It's doing what it's always done, and for the same reasons."


Very true...
22 posted on 04/17/2004 6:04:03 AM PDT by vanmorrison
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To: Clive
BUMP
23 posted on 04/17/2004 6:05:15 AM PDT by kanawa (Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.)
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To: cripplecreek
Exactly correct. Islam is the most recent of three related religions, yet it holds firm to the most archaic practices.

And thanks to Mohammed proclaiming himself the last prophet, there is no hope for major reform either.

What do you do about it? You can't reason a person from a religion. You have to keep him from being raised in it. I doubt Muslems are about to stop having kids.

24 posted on 04/17/2004 6:38:45 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: Clive; SJackson
BTTT
25 posted on 04/17/2004 6:45:36 AM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: cripplecreek
Actually, as a Christian I find it offensive for people to say that Islam is related to Christianity.

Islam is in no way related to any other religion. This is a myth put forward by apologists for Islam.

Islam was the creation of one madman who "borrowed" and then corrupted elements of Judaism and Christianity in order to lend validity to his insane rantings.

26 posted on 04/17/2004 6:51:44 AM PDT by WayneM
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To: Clive
Bump to this article that says it all.
27 posted on 04/17/2004 6:57:02 AM PDT by Moonmad27 (Imagine our country under the "leadership" of a President Kerry. Scary, isn't it?! Vote W in 04!)
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To: WayneM
Exactly right.

Islam has nothing related with Christianity.

Ishmael, the son of Abraham, is the so-called father of Arabs, but not to Islam.

Islam's god is NOT the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Muslims are not MY brothers in Christ. To be a fellow Brother in Christ, you must submit to Jesus Christ and receive Him! (John 1:12)

28 posted on 04/17/2004 7:02:34 AM PDT by GulfWar1Vet (Muslims - they say they are a peaceful, loving people. Hogwash.)
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To: All
This is something deeper, darker, than an imagined fight against a foreign foe. There is a virus at work. For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority -- we cannot pretend any longer it's about anything other than what it is: a religion gone mad and gone bad.

Stop the lies, they only make it worse.

Very good article but..

If the madness was just "religion gone mad" it could be isolated and mostly fought "over there." But the madness is bigger. It's those who distort the war to seize power and force America to submit to international (and their) dictates.

It's Democrats like Ellen Ratner hoping Bush "messes up in Iraq," it's the best and brightest Sacramento Bee brains stating within hours of 9/11/01 that we are partly to blame for not "understanding," it's Democrat (Ms Halfbright for one) lies that the U.S. "carpet bombs" Afghan and Iraqi civilians, it's Kerry not admitting that he lied that U.S. military personnel are "war criminals," it's the mainstream media's news management that supports all the left's lies (they won a North Vietnam Communists' award for their help a generation ago), it is Berkeley's Hatem whatz-his-name, et al. calling for a war against Americans here in America and the diseased-brained students cheering -- it is all these things and lots more.

It's a war within the bigger war. We will win the big war but the winner of the inner war defines the winner.

29 posted on 04/17/2004 7:08:27 AM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (Benedict Arnold was a hero for both sides in the same war, too!)
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To: Clive
For the sake of the good, law-abiding Muslims of the world -- the majority -- we cannot pretend any longer it's about anything other than what it is: a religion gone mad and gone bad.

I am sorry to report to this good fellow that, were those "good Muslims" in Britain the majority, they would stand by cheering if he were executed for failing to accept Islam.

The Islamic religion holds all infidels as effectively inhuman, thus permitting inhuman treatment of infidels. As masses abide by its words, they are, by social pressure and to curry favor from all-powerful Mullahs, forced to outwardly express ever greater heights of fervor. That fervor ends up expressed as barbarism and "good Muslims" turn into monsters.

The origins of the Koran are in Babylonian paganism, a religion that celebrated child sacrifice long before Mohammed. The book was substantively changed several times, the most outstanding example being the excision of Allat, a female deity co-equal to Allah (either the test marketing must not have gone well or Mohammed figured out that divided adoration didn't sufficiently channel through him). The Koran, however beautiful, is a proven fraud. The mullahs know the archaeological news is out and their cushy deal will come to an end if the people find out. They must attain full domination of the planet or it's over. After all, it's not their skin blowing up in Middle Eastern markets.

30 posted on 04/17/2004 7:13:15 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (And the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.)
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To: WayneM
Islam was the creation of one madman who "borrowed" and then corrupted elements of Judaism and Christianity in order to lend validity to his insane rantings.

Mohammed was the "Charles Manson" of the seventh century.

31 posted on 04/17/2004 7:29:35 AM PDT by SpyGuy
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To: WayneM
who "borrowed"

Therein lies the relation.

Muhammed was wise to do this in order to make it easier to convert the large numbers of Jews & Christians in the area. Then he proclaimed himself the last prophet to keep anyone else from pulling the same stunt on him.

32 posted on 04/17/2004 7:36:24 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: Clive
To stop the weed, gotta get at the roots - monstrous mullah's, and money. A cleric with a militia is no longer holy. Don't know what to do about all those wahabbi (sp?) schools, though, or Saudi oil money. Tough problem.
33 posted on 04/17/2004 7:41:25 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: Clive
Islam is a malignant meme. It is highly successful, having spread to 1/6 of the Earth's population.

Just as in cancer, which spreads like, well...cancer, so does the meme for Islam.

Drastic measures are called for when a rogue meme gets loose, no less so than when cancer cells begin metastasizing.

Cautery, chemosurgery, radiation do come to mind.

--Boris

34 posted on 04/17/2004 7:49:26 AM PDT by boris (The deadliest weapon of mass destruction in history is a Leftist with a word processor)
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To: SpyGuy
Mohammed was the "Charles Manson" of the seventh century.

You forget that it was "the seventh century". Manson was a fool and would never do better than a prison cell. Muhammed exploited his times cleverly to establish a foundation upon which to build a rapidly growing and lasting empire.

Unfortunately the foundation was so strong that Muslims today are still stuck in the Middle Ages. Aside from cohesiveness all they have now to offer humanity are anachronisms and two-bit thugerry.

35 posted on 04/17/2004 7:49:48 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: Steely Tom
Bump your insightful post re 'self-hatred' as the engine of 'progressive' politics.
36 posted on 04/17/2004 7:49:57 AM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: searchandrecovery
To stop the weed, gotta get at the roots - monstrous mullah's, and money. A cleric with a militia is no longer holy. Don't know what to do about all those wahabbi (sp?) schools, though, or Saudi oil money. Tough problem.

Yeah. Saudi Arabia makes a lie out of the notion that enrichment will lead to civility. Instead in only leads to rich thugs.

37 posted on 04/17/2004 7:56:20 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: SpyGuy
Mohammed was the "Charles Manson" of the seventh century.

I'm thinking more the L. Ron Hubbard of the seventh century.

38 posted on 04/17/2004 8:27:49 AM PDT by Tennessee_Bob (LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?)
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To: beavus
Instead in only leads to rich thugs.

Islam - the most intolerant religion on earth. Also, the religion most closely linking church & state. Also, they want to take over the world. Hey, nice work, mohammed.

39 posted on 04/17/2004 8:37:53 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: Tennessee_Bob
People are always going to demand kooky explanations for those things they value most. Better they find what they want in Scientology than Islam. I've never known a Scientologist to blow himself up in a crowded coffee shop.

_Stranger in a Srange Land_ gives an interesting spin on this idea.

40 posted on 04/17/2004 8:38:24 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: Clive
I've seen it myself.

Michael Coren, that rare Canadian, has gone and knocked down that hornet's nest again, and this time it is difficult indeed to dismiss his article as the rantings of another neanderthal mean-spirited American.
Nevertheless he immediately commits the mortal sin of this debate: he extrapolates from the particular to the general. Most mindless liberals and sandmaggot lovers will immediately accuse him of dishonesty, because all palestinians can't be equally senseless.
Never mind that he has seen it with his own eyes. If he hasn't seen all of them he may not make any inferences, or go from the particular to the general, no matter how many news reports he has seen of human parts from teenagers or photographs of cute 1 year olds wearing toy suicide explosive belts. These are all peculiarly isolated aberrations that do not in any way define any cultural or social tendency whatsoever.

Fortunately, this article gives me hope. Not hope that most of us are wrong about the nature of a culture so far removed from ours that we don't even have a common plane of existence on which to discuss our differences, but hope that more and more normal, "ordinary" people will see the hopelessness and "error" of assuming that they are "just like us" only wearing fur hats, or head rags, because, surely, if they also love their children as we do, they must be the same as we are.

I have been giving this a lot of thought lately, because the contradictions and other elements of this war are so obvious and irreconcilable, that I, for one, see no further use for debate, if the waiting and forebearance is paid for by the blood of my neighbors and my neighbors' children.

Basic ideas, no longer capable of being reduced to simpler terms mean opposite things in our universes: Honesty, honor, rules of war, lying, using ambulances as ammunition transport, asserting that white is black and vice-versa, all are as deeply ingrained in their culture as the opposite is in ours.

To take one of the simplest examples: Both resident ad visitor muslims demonstrate loudly and often violently shouting about "Our Rights" when it is common knowlege that those same rights uniformly are denied to any non-muslim in every one of their countries. This right of exploitation of inferior cultures, to use their own values against them, is the birthright of Islam.
Another obvious one: they scream loudly and often when mosques are entered to deal with killers, plotting new kills, in non-muslim countries. In other words, their religious rules apply anywhere they choose to go, but others' do not. Hence not a single regularly functioning Christian church in any muslim country.
To all of them, from the university professor to the most ignorant illiterate streetperson, this makes total islamic sense.

So what is there to talk about?

41 posted on 04/17/2004 8:41:15 AM PDT by Publius6961 (.)
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To: Tennessee_Bob
There's a big difference (imho) between scn & islam - scn costs a lot of money, which limits access by the masses. Islam seems to be much easier to "spread", seeing how it seems to require only access to a koran and a local leader (ok, as well as maybe a prayer rug and a compass).

Also, scn seems to carry out it's dirty work via a central organization (flag), whereas islam relies on individuals to blow themselves up or fight.

42 posted on 04/17/2004 8:47:19 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: beavus
_Stranger in a Srange Land_ gives an interesting spin on this idea.

Did beavus just out himself as a butthead scientologist? What say ye, beavus?

43 posted on 04/17/2004 8:50:10 AM PDT by searchandrecovery (Ward Cleaver - "A thing is either right or it's wrong".)
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To: Clive
It is the pluralistic openness and decency of Europe and North America that has allowed so many Muslim immigrants. How ironic that a minority of those people hate that very pluralism and decency and want to slaughter women and children in the name of their god and their cause.

Well, this would seem to be the issue/question of the century! The answer, just keep the bastards out! You can't tell by looking and it only stands to reason that just like everywhere, including still in Iraq today, that once a large base of muslims exists, then you have these issues. How can you stop it? You can't apart from altering behavior which has been born out that it can't be altered!

The roots, two religions, or one really, Judeo-Christianity with its roots in "love everyone", all the way down to your neighbor, vs. Islam, with its roots in take over the world and force, necessarily in one form or another, everyone to either convert or acquiesse to Islam, or kill them quite simply.

Too bad more Canadians and Englanders don't think this way!

44 posted on 04/17/2004 8:53:33 AM PDT by wingster
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To: searchandrecovery
Hey, nice work, mohammed.

Since his goal was a large cohesive empire, he appears to have accomplished them. To his credit, there weren't many better options for people in his area in the 7th century.

Now Moha's dead, his empire broken and in shambles, his people a living anachronism, and those who realize it venting their inferiority neuroses in fire and bullets.

45 posted on 04/17/2004 8:55:38 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: searchandrecovery
Did beavus just out himself as a butthead scientologist? What say ye, beavus?

Riiiiiiiiiight.

46 posted on 04/17/2004 8:56:44 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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To: searchandrecovery
Don't know about that, SAR - Stranger In A Strange Land is a Heinlein novel - not Hubbard. He may be referring to the theme in the novel though.
47 posted on 04/17/2004 8:56:46 AM PDT by Tennessee_Bob (LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?)
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Ironically, one doesn't have to look far at all to "connect the dots" here!

All over the world where slaughter and human rights violence is peaking, somewhere in there, usually from the top in one way or another, it's Islam that is leading the charge!

Meanwhile, where Judeo/Christian based nations are the order of the day, it's by and large extremely peaceful and civilized.

But hey, as long as people "seek to understand" instead of simply dealing with truth, this crap is gonna spread. It wouldn't hurt the "non-militant" version of Islam to stand up and be counted on the side of the good guys however. And there's FAR too little of that going on!

In fact, it's rare if even occurrent at all, for Islamic nations to "be outraged" to the extent of action in all of this. I'm convinced this is why it's a slow train coming in Iraq with the political changeover and the transition of the Iraqis to begin to learn to defend themselves as well.

48 posted on 04/17/2004 8:58:20 AM PDT by wingster
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To: searchandrecovery
Islam - the most intolerant religion on earth. Also, the religion most closely linking church & state.

Please, please, people, let's try to be accurate and not contribute further to the fog of debate: the is no such "linking". To accept that lie continues the hope that they somehow can be de-linked and muslims can join the human race. No such thing is possible.

Islam in one entity, inseparable ever. In fact, the concept of "state" did not exist for them until the 20th century, and used since to further the spread of the disease. "Countries" are but a convenient fiction with which to fight the infidels on their own terms. Think about it. Is it more politically useful to present Islam as one "country" or as 58? What do you suppose is meant by the ancient concepts of dar-al-harb (us) and dar-al-islam (them)?

To think of Islam without a preeminent role of the religious "part" is literally not possible. According to their own historical and contemporary definition of it.

49 posted on 04/17/2004 8:59:00 AM PDT by Publius6961 (.)
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To: Tennessee_Bob
Don't know about that, SAR - Stranger In A Strange Land is a Heinlein novel - not Hubbard. He may be referring to the theme in the novel though.

I made the mistake of assuming he was literate. I seem to have that problem around here--overestimating people.

50 posted on 04/17/2004 9:03:00 AM PDT by beavus (People proclaim to believe most assuredly that which they understand the least.)
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