[Coleus]

`

[lainde]

These gutless priests are disgusting. I don't remember any nuanced, flip-flopping over moral issues when I was in school. Furthermore, setting a "bad example" was a big deal. Times have certainly changed.

[Homer_J_Simpson]

Several other Catholic politicians said they, too, had no intention of altering the way they practice their religion or their politics.

With hundreds of Catholic politicians in the United States supporting abortion rights, the trans-Atlantic counterpoint was only the latest sign that the issue promises to be a recurrent one on the U.S. campaign trail this year.

I think these guys may be wandering into quicksand. We live in dangerous times, and I sense the voters are in no mood for self-serving BS from those who would lead us.

[DestroytheDemocrats]

"Paterson Bishop Frank Rodimer said that he would give Kerry communion. While Rodimer remains adamant that abortion must be publicly condemned, he does not see a benefit in denying communion to a Catholic politician. "I would not make that the occasion for teaching; it is not a teaching moment," Rodimer said."

What in the hell is he talking about? Really. Does this sound ANYTHING like Catholic teaching? Well given this and similar stupid comments from other bishops I am lead to believe that we can expect nothing good to come of the task force that will be advising the bishops how to deal with pro-choice politicians.

The Catholic Church in American is OVER. The bishops are caving on abortion, indirectly they are caving.

[cpforlife.org]

perty much what I was expectin'

If the Pope himself flew to DC and did a fire and brimstone on this, w/ kerry, kennedy, & co. in the front pew I don't think they would care.

They are agents of Satan and should be excommunicated.

Archbishop Rummel excommunicated Louisiana politicians in the 60's over racism. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/905691/posts

For crying out loud how much worse is state sanctioned genocide.

[Numbers Guy]

Kerry believes the separation of church and state "helped make religious affiliation a non-issue in American politics."

Being told he can't accept communion has nothing to do with church and state. It's purely a church issue. The church chooses not to give the Eucharist to someone who publicly refuses to follow church teachings.

During the 1960's the church refused to provide Eucharist to segregationists in Louisiana. Someone should ask Kerry if that was an improper action by church officials.

[cpforlife.org]

From open email I recieved:

Dear Friends,

Now that the Vatican has made it clear, will bishop O'Malley
finally become a good shepherd and issue an edict that if
John Kerry presents himself for Holy Communion, he MUST
be refused?

If Bishop O'Malley allows Holy Communion knowingly to a
person in the state of mortal sin, both he and John Kerry are guilty of direct material cooperation in the sinful act.

Bishop O'Malley, would be especially guilty since the person receiving Communion would not be able to commit the sin of sacrilege without his direct help.

My view is that Bishop O'Malley and the rest of the American bishops with the exception of Archbishop Burke of St. Louis and Bishop Bruskewitz of Lincoln Nebraska will continue ignoring Canon Law and be silent on this issue.until after the elections in November.

They know that without the Catholic vote, child killing Kerry is dead meat and it would be the death knell of the Democratic Party.The Catholic pro-abortion politicians, who by the way, run the "Party of Death" have sold their souls to the devil for political gain and power.

We shall see if the bishops have also sold their souls now that the Vatican had to interpret Canon Law for them.

Would you believe that the American bishops had to call for a meeting to determine what to do with pro-abortion Catholic politicians. The even said they may not reach a conclusion until after the elections

Why, when it is in black and white in Canon Law 915, which a ten year old would have no problem understanding?
After awhile this affinity the bishops have with the "Party of Death" becomes sickening.

For once, I hope and pray the bishops put the lives of children first and politics last. Is this really asking too much from them when the Catholic pro-abortion politicians really should be excommunicated for their heresy?


Frank Joseph MD

DFjosephMD@aol.com
www.hometown.aol.com/dfjoseph/abortion.html



64 posted on 04/24/2004 4:15:44 PM CDT by cpforlife.org (The Missing Key of the Pro-Life Movement is at www.CpForLife.org)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

---

[BradyLS]

I'll tell you what offends me. Those sanctomonious, finger-in-the-air poses Kerry makes all the time that are reproduced in the press.

Right hand raised, finger pointing upward, eyes looking upward... Like he's some sort of saint himself. He's got all his Clinton moves down.

[nickcarraway]

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)

[nickcarraway]

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29)

[cpforlife.org]

Why Don't Catholic Politicians Practice What the Catholic Church Preaches?

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_8797.shtml

Commentary by Judie Brown
April 19, 2004


Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

- 1 Corinthians 11:29



This column is about pro-abortion Catholics - and isn't that just the crème de la crème of the oxymoron world? Yes, there's one pro-abortion Catholic who's getting a lot of attention, and yes, he's running for president. I'll get to him in a minute. But he's not alone. And he himself is not the problem, merely a sign of a much deeper illness.



So what is the big deal about pro-abortion political figures receiving Communion in the Catholic Church? It's a "big deal" because of what Holy Communion is to the Catholic Church. And that's why I led off with St. Paul, who knew a few things about how Christ wanted us mortals to practice our faith. The consecrated bread and wine does not "symbolize" Christ. It is Christ.



Okay, I can almost see the eyes rolling on that one: "There you Catholics go again." And, if we are to believe the polls, a lot of Catholic eyes are rolling in unison with their non-Catholic brethren. But I'm not making any of this up. Holy Communion is Jesus Christ. It's all in the Bible, which all good Christians freely acknowledge is the Word of God.



"But I have to suspend all logic to think that a pressed wafer of wheat and a cup of fermented grape juice is in fact Jesus Christ." Yup. You sure do. It's called "faith." And either you've got it, or you don't. And if you don't, please refer back to the quote from St. Paul at the top of the page.



It is especially puzzling that those who take the Bible as literal fact cannot accept the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Other things in the Bible also require a full-tilt suspension of logic, yet "Bible believing" Christians accept them without flinching.



God created the whole universe in seven days? Of course. It's in the Bible.



Jericho's walls couldn't stand up to a hot tune on the trumpet? Ditto. God said so.



Methuselah lived to the extremely ripe old age of 969? No doubt. It's in there.



Yet we are told that when Christ said, "This is my body," he was just being poetic. Never mind that the quote shows up in the gospels and in Paul's letters. Nope. That Jesus always spoke in riddles, didn't he? And this was just the pinnacle of his storytelling acumen.



Oh yeah? Don't think so.



Check out the "bread of life" discourse in Chapter 6 of John's gospel. Jesus goes on at length about the need to eat his body and drink his blood. People turned away from him because it seemed so … odd. But the disciples knew it was the real deal, and they stayed.



Okay. So much for the detour into basic theology. Today, far too many Catholics seem to have lost touch with that basic teaching. And the lost sheep include far too many Catholics in public office who think they can vote pro-abortion during the week and sashay shamelessly up to the altar on Sunday.



Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is the current poster boy of this pro-abortion Catholic flock. One week, he rolls into Mass - 10 minutes late - with a noisy entourage, then makes a quick trip to the altar for Holy Communion, then bounces out to hit the ski slopes. The next week, he's photographed receiving communion at a non-Catholic church. That's also a no-no. But Sen. Kerry is not alone.



Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois is getting a fair amount of attention in his home state. Catholics in Springfield picketed his church there. So he sought out a friendlier church in Chicago (read: one where the tenets of the faith are subject to negotiation) where his die-hard pro-abortion stance seems irrelevant. A new group is now organizing to picket that church. Maybe he's not getting the truth inside the building, but he's sure going to get an earful on the way in and out.



Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas vetoed a bill that would have imposed minimal health and medical standards on abortion clinics in her state. She is Catholic, and pro-abortion. The legislature is again contemplating a bill that would enact such requirements. The governor is promising a repeat veto performance if the representatives of the people of Kansas dare approve what is considered a pro-life measure.



Gov. Jennifer Granholm of Michigan is also a pro-abortion Catholic who has made questionable use of the veto pen. A local group has a web site that follows the ongoing inconsistencies that unavoidably dog someone who proclaims both the Catholic faith and the so-called right to choose abortion. Granholm's case is particularly troublesome, since she has served as a Eucharistic minister. That's right. This woman, who is pro-abortion, has stood before her fellow parishioners, presented the Holy Eucharist to them and announced, "The Body of Christ."



Hello? Does she really believe it? Does Durban? Sebelius? Kerry? Does every Catholic priest and bishop really believe it? Aha! That's the real question. In the pro-life movement, it is often said, "If you really believe abortion is murder, then act like it." A similar sentiment should be expressed to Catholic priests and bishops who are lukewarm about defending the Church's teaching about Holy Communion: "If you really believe the Holy Eucharist is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, then act like it!"



We are told, for instance, that Archbishop Sean O'Malley of Boston has said pro-abortion Catholics should not receive Communion. Yet Sen. Kerry a, pro-abortion Catholic continues to do so. Granted, Archbishop O'Malley is still the new guy in town, but with high-profile pro-abortion Catholics such as John Kerry and Ted Kennedy in his flock, he surely knows that their behavior merits his extremely vigilant scrutiny.



We are told that Cardinal Francis George of Chicago has met privately with Dick Durbin, hopefully for some remedial catechism instruction on the Church's teachings on the sanctity of human life. That's well and good, but how long will it take before something is said publicly to this man, and the countless others, who very publicly promote legal abortion and very publicly receive Holy Communion?



That priests and bishops are within bounds in withholding Communion from such persons is beyond question. It's in the rules: Canon Law, in this case. Canon 915 says those "who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to communion." Abortion, the Church says, is gravely evil, adding that "formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense."



Pro-abortion Catholic politicians are fond of saying they "personally oppose" abortion, but are unwilling to stand in the way of others who seek them. Is that formal cooperation? Well, voting to expend tax dollars on abortion and abortion-related matters certainly seems to qualify.



Abortion is, after all, a matter of life and death. Yet the Gallup organization tells us it "consistently ranks among the least important issues to the electorate in choosing a president." Americans have become indifferent. American Catholics, too, have become indifferent. Is it because too many priests and bishops, through their silence, have allowed this indifference to fester?



"I am the bread of life," said Christ. The apostles knew it was the real deal, and they stayed. Do the apostles' modern day successors share that conviction? Or have they, as did many of Jesus' fair-weather followers, simply drifted away?



It's certainly a question to ponder at this time of year, when Christians commemorate the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

Judie Brown is the president of American Life League

[tkathy]

I am sure the Almighty on Judgment Day is going to be hysterical about that fact that JK took communion!

[RIGHT IN LAS VEGAS]

several catholic politicians

[NYer]

Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, USA, said statements such as Arinze's "debase the political campaign" and would only isolate the church from its U.S. members, most of whom she said support abortion rights.

Kissling Spins Canon Law  
(from Catalyst, May 2003)

 
Catholics For a Free Choice (CFFC) recently released a new pamphlet, titled, “Catholics and Abortion: Notes on Canon Law.” Its aim is to counter “finger-pointing” and “misinformation.” No one who is familiar with Frances Kissling’s group should be surprised that the only techniques used in the pamphlet are just that—finger-pointing and misinformation. 

The introduction whines, “Everyone is an expert, claiming that prochoice Catholics are ‘heretics’ or have been ‘excommunicated’ because they have had an abortion or have supported legal abortion.” And here’s some misinformation: CFFC claims, “We respect the church’s law.” 

The pamphlet focuses on two relevant passages in the 1983 Code of Canon Law—the one prescribing automatic excommunication for those who have a completed abortion (canon 1398), and the passage that stipulates automatic excommunication for “accomplices” without whose help the grave sin could not have been committed (canon 1329 §2). 

In the next ten or so pages, the pamphlet’s author, Sara Morello, wrangles word-by-word with the passages from Canon Law, attempting to show that mitigating factors can lessen the likelihood that someone who has had an abortion actually incurs excommunication. But any Catholic already knows that there are conditions to be met (grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent) before any sin incurs its full penalty. (Incidentally, the word “sin” appears nowhere in the leaflet.)

In a huge leap of logic, the brochure tells us, “In cases where it is difficult to argue that the primary actor incurs a penalty, it would also be very difficult to justify punishing accomplices.” In other words, since we cannot say for sure whether the woman undergoing an abortion meets the requirements under Canon Law for responsibility for her actions, then we cannot even begin to judge the actions of accomplices, such as Kissling. Thus “the routine activity of hospital administrators, directors of abortion clinics and prochoice politicians does not make them eligible for punishment under this canon.”

One doesn’t have to have a degree in Canon Law to see this is nonsense. Canon 1329 states that anyone who aided in the commission of an offense such that it would not have been committed without their help suffers the penalty attached to that offense. For example: an accomplice to a murder is subject to the same penalty that the actual murderer is, regardless of any mitigating factors operating on the murderer. If the murderer is in a blind rage and acts in the heat of the moment, he may be less culpable; but a man who calmly gives him a knife and leads him to his victim enjoys no such advantages. Each individual is subject to penalties based on his own mental state and actions. 

Frances Kissling and other facilitators of abortion are probably not under the emotional pressure of those with unplanned pregnancies. And CFFC is fully aware of the Church’s actual teaching; they produced this tract on Canon Law, didn’t they? And it even grudgingly acknowledges, “getting an abortion is against the church’s law.” 

In other words, Frances Kissling and her ilk have no excuse. And whether or not you believe that she has acted directly as an “accomplice” through her work with CFFC and the pro-abortion lobby, there remains the fact that she operated one of the first legal abortion clinics in New York, and ran illegal ones in Mexico and Rome; all of which she still defends. If that’s not direct complicity, then the law is meaningless. 

It’s not our place to declare people excommunicated, but we will point out their disingenuous reasoning. Kissling’s motive in producing the tract is transparent: she hopes to silence her opposition, who place her and her organization outside the Church. But Canon Law is clear on one matter, and the American bishops agree: Catholics For a Free Choice is anything but Catholic. And no glossy pamphlet that butchers Canon Law will convince us otherwise.
 

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list

[madprof98]

Liberals rightly condemn the Catholic bishops of Nazi Germany for their refusal to stand up to the many leaders of their day who continued to receive the sacraments even as they plotted the destruction of millions of their fellow citizens. Likewise, they applaud the Church for standing up to the segregationists in Lousiana. The only reason they whine about "teachable moments" now is that they really support the destruction of unborn children.

[don-o]

proper time to have a conversation with a Catholic candidate about abortion or other spiritual matters is before Mass,

No. The proper thing is to excommunicate the reprobates, ya dope!

[don-o]

Among American Catholics, 56 percent of non-Hispanic Catholics and 59 percent of Hispanic Catholics oppose making it harder for a woman to get an abortion,

Who give a flip? The Church is not, nor has ever been a democracy.

Fer crying out loud, AmBishops!

Testicles are useful for other than procreation.

Grow a pair!

[B Knotts]

As far as I'm concerned, a bishop that would say such a thing is not fit to be a diocesan bishop. He should be reassigned.

[cricket]

"I would not make that the occasion for teaching; it is not a teaching moment,"

. . .how about this Bishop just accepting that it is a 'moral moment' that defines and honors the Churches teachings; otherwise; what is the point of anyone not availing themselves?

Liberals, like everywhere else in our culture, continue to debase the 'good' by their escape in a moral relativism.

John Kerry IS a Catholic - just depends on the meaning of 'is'. . .and maybe by now; the meaning of 'Catholic'. . .

[cricket]

a bump and a correction. . .'Church's'. . .