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Abortion/Immigration

Posted on 05/05/2004 7:04:50 AM PDT by cvq3842

There wqas an interesting column in the print version of National Review this week (it's not on the website, so I can't link it). Basically it said that the widespread acceptance (endorsement?) of abortion in Europe, plus other "modern" and "post-modern" social changes relating to marriage and childbirth, are resulting in a birthrate collapse in much of Western Europe. Naive populations of Italy and several other European nations are falling to about 1.1 children per couple (less than a "replacement rate" of, presumably, 2.0 or thereabouts), and that such a decline is one of the reasons for massive immigration into those countries of Arab and African people, with historically higher birthrates.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts here, assuming the facts are true. The columnist warned that such a massive influx of peoples without the political and cultural traditions of the host countries would eventually cause widespread Social, economic and political upheaval. Also, the article brought to light another concept that seems to be a part of the abortion/marriage/"social issue" debate: the idea that the state has an interest in protecting children and in ensuring the continuation of the population of the state - the next generation, if you will.

Any thoughts?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 05/05/2004 7:04:50 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: cvq3842
Hmmm, let's see. Sounds like someone at National Review finally got around to reading "Death of the West" by Patrick Buchanan a couple years after it was published. But that's just about par for the course for them. First they accuse PJB of being anti-semitic, unpatriotic, etc., then they steal all his ideas without attribution since he has more original ideas in a month than that whole bunch of Jonah Goldberg wannabes have ever had in their lives.
2 posted on 05/05/2004 7:13:38 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
Could be!

There are conservatives, and then there are conservatives.
3 posted on 05/05/2004 7:22:10 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: cvq3842
the problems of immigration/abortion faced by the USA and Europe are also faced by Israel.
4 posted on 05/05/2004 7:27:12 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: Maximilian
"Sounds like someone at National Review finally got around to reading "Death of the West" by Patrick Buchanan a couple years after it was published. "

A big Conservative Right On. If people would actually read Buchanan they would find that he is right about this as well as illegal immigration, abortion, homosexual practices, trade job losses and foreign entanglements bringing war to our shores.

Pat continues to demonstrate unsurpassed analytical forecasting of what is best for America. Being for America first makes Pat the object of smearers.

5 posted on 05/05/2004 7:31:06 AM PDT by ex-snook (Neocon Chickenhawk for War like Liberal Cuckoo for Welfare. Both freeload.)
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To: ckilmer
Good point!
6 posted on 05/05/2004 7:33:05 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: ex-snook
Well I get his magazine, the American Conservative. It has some good articles but his hatred for Bush oozes from every page. It's at Michael Moore level, and is unbecoming, in my opinion. The Buchananite take on the WOT seems to be we should have used the FBI, kinda like the Dean take. Even with the problems in Iraq I think we did the right thing.

Also he may not be anti-semetic but he sure acts like it. A recent Taki piece called something like Neocon Job said that the real reason for Wolfowitz's war was to tie the USA more firmly to Israel. The litany of obviously Jewish names (Kristol, etc) in agreement with Iraq, and the exclusion of some of the key drivers who don't happen to be Jewish, like say Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell paints an innacurate picture designed to stir up anti-Jewish sentiment. I hear their arguments echoed by the less fastidious and they quickly disolve into blatent anti-semitism.

Pat does have a ton of interesting ideas, but he is not nuanced enough to be a politician. As a polemicist he is first rate. Death of the West was a very thought provoking book. If anyone else had written it it would have had an impact like "End of History". Thats sad, but you only get so many mistakes before a lot of people start ignoring you and Pat has used up more than his quota.

7 posted on 05/05/2004 7:38:16 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
"but you only get so many mistakes before a lot of people start ignoring you and Pat has used up more than his quota. "

What were all those mistakes? You may have missed that Pat was all for taking out bin Laden for his terrorist attack on us. He did not think Iraq was a terrorist threat to America. Just about the rest of the world agrees with Pat on that.

8 posted on 05/05/2004 7:56:48 AM PDT by ex-snook (Neocon Chickenhawk for War like Liberal Cuckoo for Welfare. Both freeload.)
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To: cvq3842
In the late 90's members of the Likud trooped through NYC asking again again why are there only 15 million jews. they listened to the buzz from liberal jewish establishment there. In January National Union Party in in Israel set up a Christian Caucus in the Knesset.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200401/FOR20040106c.html

In my opinion the effect of this is to preclude the American and Israeli Jewish left from slandering conservative American christians as tribal enemies--so as to advance sundry liberal causes like abortion. (Alas this slander has been going on since the McCarthy era--but that's another story.)

The result has been a dam break.
9 posted on 05/05/2004 7:57:23 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: ckilmer
Interesting!
10 posted on 05/05/2004 8:02:57 AM PDT by cvq3842
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To: Maximilian
"Sounds like someone at National Review finally got around to reading "Death of the West" by Patrick Buchanan a couple years after it was published."

Yep, started to sound familiar by the second sentence.
11 posted on 05/05/2004 8:06:48 AM PDT by moehoward
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To: ex-snook
Careless use of language such as "Hitler was a great man", jumps to mind. Also the position in his magazine I described above.
12 posted on 05/05/2004 8:07:37 AM PDT by Jack Black
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To: cvq3842
Had to wait to get off work to post but now that I can post - I am amazed at the low number of hits....but here goes anyway:

The root cause of this mess has far more wide ranging impact than "only" immigration.

All the wonderful warm fuzzy notions of the post-Korean war period - as in "the sixties", can only be applied to modern, developed, western, states, and apparently not to all of them. They have been utterly ignored or redefined to allow the third world to benefit at our expense.

"Zero population growth" - quite popular in the west, allowed the US and like societies to live like royalty while reducing the number of children they had to support.

"Two income houses" or "liberation of the housewife" - same attraction and result as above and a joke in backwater mexico.

"Diversity" - I won't even go into how diverse Rwanda or Egypt are in comparison to our old concept of a melting pot. However, 'diversity' as practiced here and now fosters insular, self defining and self regulating, clots of "others" who are openly hostile to traditional American beliefs and ethics - growing daily, in part due to...

"Constructionism" - particularly in relation to the constitution, immigration, the second amendment, the family, gender, educational goals....(hmmm), no, particularly applicable to every single important element of society. Go ahead, ask any Iraqi how he or she was able apply constructionism to Shara law or to Saddam's dictates.

"Relativism" - Sure, its worthwhile to understand and respect the reasons for eating the liver of your adversaries or worshipping at a cave somewhere in the outback but 'understand' has morphed into 'elevate over the capitalistic and paternal imperialistic policies of the west' ("and never, never, mention that it used to be the 'Christian World"). That kind of relativism would probably make the guy worshipping in the cave laugh his butt off, if he was strong enough to do so after living on roots and tree bark his whole life.

Relativism of course also applies to individuals - I have to wonder how many wealthy mexicans feel obligated to insure the well being of the peons down the road.
Oops, I don't wonder at all being as how the peons are moving up here where my taxes assure their continued ability to spawn.

And, "Liberal Education" [in which I admit to having participated]. The highlypopular and very profitable mass indoctrination scam brought to you by a committed academic elite. Who, in turn, would starve if it were not for government sponsorship of their absurd but effective socialist/egalitarian/lowest common denominator ideology. Oh, heah, and it is highly profitable as an industry; one that offers absolutely no guarantee of its product.

So, if you are only worried about abortion and immigration (in addition to keeping the Beemer tuned and the waistline down) maybe you should broaden your horizons.

Note: this arguement not necessarily aimed at Freepers - just the rest of America.

13 posted on 05/05/2004 6:48:54 PM PDT by norton
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To: norton
Thanks for a very thoughtful response. Just the kind of discussion I had hoped to create. I'm glad you addressed a number of issues and focused on the "bigger picture."

Now it's my turn to get to work. But certainly there's much, much more to say about this . . .
14 posted on 05/06/2004 5:00:42 AM PDT by cvq3842
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