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The Fermi Paradox - Are We Alone in the Universe

Posted on 05/19/2004 12:46:40 PM PDT by Conservomax

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To: Just another Joe
ALL TRUE, But Remember One Other Factor; the "Universe" is supposedly "Infinite," which suggests that "Contact" is, at least, "Statistically Possible!!"

In an "Infinite Universe," our "Lack of Contact" may Simply be a Statistical Event!!

An "Infinite Universe" is FAR LARGER than we can imagine, & chances of "Contact" may be FAR LESS than we can Calculate.

Doc

121 posted on 05/19/2004 4:47:07 PM PDT by Doc On The Bay
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To: RadioAstronomer
I'll throw out another theory, FWIW. What if it's exceedingly difficult for societies to organize on a large scale over an extended period of time? For a galaxy-spanning civilization, this would be a requirement for large-scale interstellar colonization.

Consider our own planet, we create extra-national organizations such as the UN and it becomes corrupted and ineffective. We've even tried international efforts on space projects and we have a clunky sinkhole of money in LEO that will never be completed as it was originally intended.

I haven't seen evidence that we're capable of mounting an expedition much past Mars. To think that we could not only colonize our own star system and then reach out on a large and continuous scale to propagate throughout the galaxy using a supranational organization (UN on steroids) is laughable.

Maybe the best that could be attempted would be sporadic probes of a few nearby star systems, probably robotic, that would do a quick flyby or a temporary orbital surveillance of other star systems. It would be small scale, extremely rare, and very unlikely we would ever notice such a probe, even if it passed by during an age of technical sophistication of the target star system.

122 posted on 05/19/2004 4:50:47 PM PDT by Brett66
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To: Conservomax

I have a theory, but I am too insignificant to waste the bandwidth.


123 posted on 05/19/2004 4:51:55 PM PDT by gorush
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To: PatrickHenry

technological placemarker, because it's time to go watch the "Star Trek" babe with the "gravity-defying" breasts....


124 posted on 05/19/2004 5:01:47 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: RadioAstronomer

Amen brother.

It is really difficult for most people to grasp the vast distances and times and costs to cross those distances.

However, I think we will try it in some way at some future time.

Besides, those who wonder should check out the theory of Directed Panspermia - a realistic solution, but it begs the question of the initial source for galactic life.


125 posted on 05/19/2004 5:07:08 PM PDT by furball4paws (No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American people - HL Mencken)
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To: RightWhale
Fermi's paradox induces aphorisms.

Eschew obfuscation.

126 posted on 05/19/2004 5:09:36 PM PDT by Still Thinking
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To: longshadow
technological placemarker, because it's time to go watch the "Star Trek" babe with the "gravity-defying" breasts....

LOL at this rate you'll never have a statue of yourself erected on Alpha Centauri III!

127 posted on 05/19/2004 5:12:38 PM PDT by Fitzcarraldo
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To: xrp

Homer Simpson on the theory of evolution:

"I challenge anyone to prove that these donuts don't taste as good as those baked fresh today!"


128 posted on 05/19/2004 5:19:35 PM PDT by beaver fever
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To: RadioAstronomer
You guys are arguing the Drake Equation as apposed to the Fermi Paradox.

Correct me if I'm wrong. It appears to me that the Drake Equation is formulated on the premise that life will arise on other planets....but the Fermi Paradox doesn't necessarily make that assumption, allowing for no life at all.

I'm a bit perplexed why the writer would have included Drake in the article. Sort of made me think...wtf??

BTW...how you doing.

129 posted on 05/19/2004 5:23:34 PM PDT by Focault's Pendulum (Simple physics: Heat sand hot enough...it becomes Glass!)
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To: Focault's Pendulum
I'm a bit perplexed why the writer would have included Drake in the article. Sort of made me think...wtf??

Uh ... because it's part of the paradox? The Drake Formula suggests that intelligent life should be abundant. Observation contradicts that conclusion. So ... where are they?

130 posted on 05/19/2004 5:28:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (A compassionate evolutionist!)
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To: Conservomax

Fermi's Paradox

Oh, this article is seriously lacking in logic 101.  Where to begin?

Let's start with the first "conclusion" in paragraph 2:

Fermi realized that any civilization with a modest amount of rocket technology and an immodest amount of imperial incentive could rapidly colonize the entire Galaxy. Within a few million years, every star system could be brought under the wing of empire. A few million years may sound long, but in fact it's quite short compared with the age of the Galaxy, which is roughly ten thousand million years. Colonization of the Milky Way should be a quick exercise.

Wow, what a conclusion!  Even "modest rocket technology" will allow rapid conquest and colonization of the galaxy?  I don't think this article's author has a clue about the size of the galaxy or the nature of rocket travel.  If this is, in fact, the thumbnail sketch of Fermi's Paradox then I have some severe reservations about the legend that has grown up around Fermi as a genius of the first order.  Somehow I blame the author.

So what Fermi immediately realized was that the aliens have had more than enough time to pepper the Galaxy with their presence. But looking around, he didn't see any clear indication that they're out and about. This prompted Fermi to ask what was (to him) an obvious question: "where is everybody?"

OK, you buy the premise, you buy the bit.  But what overwhelming hubris would lead one to assume that we had seen all of the available evidence?  According to this article Fermi's paradox came from a casual comment by Fermi in the 1940s (according to Space.COM the lunchtime conversation was in 1950).  Radio astronomy only came into existence in 1931 with the Bell Labs work of Karl Jansky.  Oh yeah.  We've heard everything and seen everything there is to see in less than 20 years.  Even in the radio spectrum.  The scientific method at its best!

Also, if one considers the amount of time the Galaxy has been around (over 10 billion years) and the speed of technological advancement in our own culture, then a more relevant point is where are all the super-advanced alien civilizations.

Building on a flawed premise.  What makes us think we can detect an advanced civilization, given our "bang the rocks together" level of technology?

Russian astrophysicist Nikolai Kardashev proposed a useful scheme to classify advanced civilizations, he argues that ET would posses one of three levels of technology. A Type I civilization is similar to our own, one that uses the energy resources of a planet. A Type II civilization would use the energy resources of a star, such as a Dyson sphere. A Type III civilization would employ the energy resources of an entire galaxy. A Type III civilization would be easy to detect, even at vast distances.

Freeman Dyson (of Dyson Sphere fame) suggested that we start looking for evidence of such advanced civilizations by looking for the telltale signs of Dyson Spheres (radiation in the infrared as leakage / waste from a Dyson Sphere where gravity evidence says there should be a star) .  Somehow I don't think we're spending too much time on that particular search, given that we haven't even covered 15% of the radio sources in our sky in the "conventional" SETI search (which is woefully under funded at the present time).

This sounds a bit silly at first. The fact that aliens don't seem to be walking our planet apparently implies that there are no extraterrestrial anywhere among the vast tracts of the Galaxy. Many researchers consider this to be a radical conclusion to draw from such a simple observation. Surely there is a straightforward explanation for what has become known as the Fermi Paradox. There must be some way to account for our apparent loneliness in a galaxy that we assume is filled with other clever beings.

Well duh!  Simple postulate in all of science: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."  My whole argument with this article is that they are violating this inviolable law.  Do they think that by stating the obvious they dismiss it without any cogent arguments?

Bracewell-Von Neumann Probes:

Machines!  That's the proof we need!  Machines!  It's obvious that's what we should be looking for!

One word response.  Viruses.  We don't understand viruses, so for all we know they are the Bracewell-Von Neumann probes.  Nuff said.

Attached to a basic propulsion system, such as a Bussard RamJet (shown above), such a probe could travel between the stars at a very slow pace. When it reaches a target system, it finds suitable material (like asteroids) and makes copies of itself. Growth of the number of probes would occur exponentially and the Galaxy could be explored in 4 million years. While this time span seems long compared to the age of human civilization, remember the Galaxy is over 10 billion years old and any past extraterrestrial civilization could have explored the Galaxy 250 times over.

Nothing could possibly go wrong with the probe or the GALAXY in the meantime.  Of course not!  It's easy to explore the galaxy.  250 times over!

Thus, the question arises, if it so easy to build Bracewell-Von Neumann probes, and they has been so much time in the past, where are the aliens or at least evidence of their past explorations (old probes). So Fermi Paradox becomes not only where are They, but why can we not hear Them and where are their Bracewell-von Neumann probes?

Where are their probes, you ask?  Checking out some part of the galaxy a bit more interesting, perhaps?  I mean, once you get past our own self importance, that is.

Possible solutions to Fermi's Paradox fall in the following categories:

Oh goody.  This author has identified all of the possible solutions!  Let's pay attention!

They Are Here

Well, I'm so glad he proved that was false!

They Exist But Have Not Yet Communicated

OK, so we've established that if they exist they MUST come see us before they do anything else.  What's next?

They Do Not Exist

A+B=C therefore Q=R.  Of course!  Why didn't I see it immediately?

Planets With the Right Conditions are Rare

  • Planetary systems are rare
  • Habitable zones, proper distance from star for liquid water, are narrow
  • Galaxy is a dangerous place (gamma-ray bursters, asteroid impacts, etc)
  • Earth/Moon system is unique (large tides needed for molecular evolution)

 

 

And?  I mean, come on!  This is the Drake equation.  This is the ultimate logical challenge to this premise.  Drop it in the middle like a pile of poop and just ignore it!  Yeah!  That's reasoning at its finest!

In general, solutions to Fermi's paradox come down to either 1) life is difficult to start and evolve (either hard for the process or hard to find the right conditions) or 2) advanced civilizations destroy themselves on short timescales. In other words, this is an important problem to solve in the hope that it is 1 and not 2.

Of course there is a 3rd possibility.  The galaxy is huge and we are really really tiny, insignificant and VERY unimportant.  I guess this is too difficult for the author to pick up on.

Sheesh.

Crap, crap, crap and, oh yeah, crap!

Fun article, however.

131 posted on 05/19/2004 5:34:52 PM PDT by Phsstpok (often wrong, but never in doubt)
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To: PatrickHenry
So ... where are they?

Well...I wound up in New Jersey....I can't speak for the others.

132 posted on 05/19/2004 5:36:23 PM PDT by Focault's Pendulum (Simple physics: Heat sand hot enough...it becomes Glass!)
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To: Focault's Pendulum
Well, they could all be in New Jersey. No one would notice.

But seriously folks ... it's not impossible that some of them are here. If there were just a few groups, living as they do in deep rock fissures, or under the oceans, or at the bottom of glaciers, then they'd be happy as clams (so to speak) and we'd never notice.

133 posted on 05/19/2004 5:43:43 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (A compassionate evolutionist!)
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To: Phsstpok
And? I mean, come on! This is the Drake equation. This is the ultimate logical challenge to this premise. Drop it in the middle like a pile of poop and just ignore it! Yeah! That's reasoning at its finest!

That's exactly what was bothering me. I don't have a big math or physics background, so I was not sure if I should have brought it up. I didn't want to sound stupid in front of so many excellent minds.

I think it should have landed just forward of the top of the pile....and slid downward, at a speed and angle of attack, which would be dictated by the density of the poop.

134 posted on 05/19/2004 5:46:02 PM PDT by Focault's Pendulum (Simple physics: Heat sand hot enough...it becomes Glass!)
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To: Conservomax
Fermi didn't realize that an alien spacecraft that could hold thousands of beings from another planet could enter our atmosphere and land right on the White House lawn completely undetected!

It would be possible if the extraterrestrial space craft was smaller than a common house fly.

So Fermi just couldn't see them.

135 posted on 05/19/2004 5:51:35 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: Conservomax
Thanks for this. A lot was new to me.

We really need a probe to put a good radio receiver on the far side of the moon, where it would be free of the overwhelming interference from earthbound broadcasting. Maybe it would instantly pick up broadcasts, and we would figure out that a friendly regional power is shielding us.

More likely, we would find out that we are seriously alone. Assuming we are, and recognizing the VAST number of solar systems in the galaxy, it is a serious mystery. It would mean that civilization is rare and fleeting. The reason for it being fleeting would, alas, not be anything environmental, but inevitable regression into a new middle ages made more terrible and prolonged by, pace Churchill, perverted science. Or it could be that we are alone because God chose it. Our being apparently alone is a good argument for God's existence.

136 posted on 05/19/2004 6:06:24 PM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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To: PatrickHenry

There is another argument to suggest that intelligent life is rare or unique. That is the simple observation that we are the only intelligent species on Earth.

If conditions are ideal on earth for the development of one intelligent species, why haven't two species developed? A strong conclusion would be that we are unique.

rgds,
3/M


137 posted on 05/19/2004 6:07:06 PM PDT by ThirdMate
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To: xrp
Not to mention that, assuming what we regard as a path of evolution, intelligent species at some point use radio waves to communicate with each other, if any other intelligent species developed in the last 80,000 years in the Milky Way (since no point in the Milky Way is more than 80,000 light years from Earth), we would have detected them because of their radio waves.

No. By the time we built radio receivers with sufficient sensitivity, the airwaves had too much interference from earthboard broadcasts. Plus there is the interference from weather, lightning, etc. We need to put a radio probe on the far side of the moon to get over this.

138 posted on 05/19/2004 6:11:16 PM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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To: ThirdMate
If conditions are ideal on earth for the development of one intelligent species, why haven't two species developed? A strong conclusion would be that we are unique.

There can only be one human species, and there are plenty of other types of species on this planet, literally thousands.

139 posted on 05/19/2004 6:11:49 PM PDT by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: ThirdMate
If conditions are ideal on earth for the development of one intelligent species, why haven't two species developed?

It may have. Primitive warfare is ubiquitous and, relative to population, far more deadly than modern war. A slightly less intelligent species would have been wiped out.

140 posted on 05/19/2004 6:13:51 PM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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