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The Neoconservative Persuasion
Weekly Standard ^ | 2003 | Irving Kristol

Posted on 05/24/2004 4:42:38 PM PDT by churchillbuff

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To: Dane
Good night. You won't get any action on Chamberlainbuff from me...but I'm sure it will be at some time, as you suggest, when he's fairly comfortable that his many fans have retired.

See you later.

401 posted on 05/25/2004 6:35:32 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: MEG33
No, I haven't. I know of it's existence is about all. However, I really like to read ex-Marine MacGrubin (sp?) in NRO online, and he reviewed the whole rotting thing back in February or March, just around the time Kerry was securing his primary wins. MacGrubin basically said, alright Kerry, name the baby and women killers.

I know from Kerry's whole demeanor that he would love for Pres. Bush's team to allude to his lack of patriotism based on his post-war activities. Not because he plans on defending them, but because he thinks he can deflect the issue and cause it to have a boomerang effect on Bush. Max Cleland seems absolutely possessed with the same thoughts and plans.

These guys think that criticizing their support of certain policies that may or may not pertain to military matters is verboten, and they equate that to a grave insult to their Military service. They're almost school-boy like in defense of that belief.

It's astounding that people who have seen battle could be so easily knocked off their game.

402 posted on 05/25/2004 6:46:16 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: AlbionGirl

The majority of swift boat commanders who were in the same unit, they all went together on the river , say he is unfit to be CIC.


403 posted on 05/25/2004 6:49:59 PM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: AlbionGirl; MEG33
For your information. This is from the POW/MIA Family Members Against John Kerry:

John Kerry abandoned our husbands, sons, fathers, and brothers in favor of trade and normalization of relations with Vietnam. His actions paved the way for the further abandonment of POWs and MIAs from World War II, the Korean War, and the Cold War.

John Kerry, as chairman of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, ordered the destruction of committee documents, blocked avenues of investigation, and misrepresented progress on the POW/MIA issue to justify lifting of the trade embargo against Vietnam.

There is quite a controversy over some of the records and information he ordered destroyed, and with no public explanation. It's not just the living who dispise him.

404 posted on 05/25/2004 6:55:12 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: churchillbuff

Father... and son.

Quote from Irving Kristol: "Ever since I can remember, I've been a neo-something: a neo-Marxist, a neo-Trotskyist, a neo-liberal, a neo-conservative; in religion a neo-orthodox even while I was a neo-Trotskyist and a neo-Marxist. I'm going to end up a neo- that's all, neo dash nothing."

405 posted on 05/25/2004 7:02:13 PM PDT by O.C. - Old Cracker (When the cracker gets old, you wind up with Old Cracker. - O.C.)
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To: CWOJackson
I have conflicting feelings on the Vietnam trade thing. I mean what were we supposed to do, refuse to lift the embargo? Would that have given us what we needed to recover our own?

We bombed and napalmed their Country but good, and left millions dead in the wake, that isn't something to easily dismiss, or not try to make amends for. It is not in our American nature to do that. My parents can testify to that, following the end of WW II in Italy. My Mom still waxes enthusiastically about American flour, butter and cheese flowing freely. Should we have tried to cripple Vietnam even more by refusing to lift the embargo?

There's a stinky part to the MIA thing though that maybe you're referencing. An ex-Marine (I think) by the name of Smally, Smiley, something like that who headed up an MIA rescue mission seemed to get the backhand of McCain and maybe even Kerry. I was never able to make head nor tails of that whole thing though because Mr. Smalley or whatever his name is seemed really off to me.

406 posted on 05/25/2004 7:19:02 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: AlbionGirl
I never really objected to opening trade with Vietnam; the average Vietnamese is a pretty decent person. Folks who opposed lifting the sanctions often forgot all the people in the south who were swallowed by the Communists. Many, not all for sure but many, of those people fought and died along side us.

The problem POW/MIA families have are some of the documents, particularly from ongoing investigations, that were destroyed at Kerry's command.

There is pretty good evidence that we were close on getting at some of our people who were still being held prisoner even then...all destroyed without public oversight.

407 posted on 05/25/2004 7:24:07 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: CWOJackson
Up until a few years ago I worked for a small electronics firm that made sound gear, effects boxes, synthesizers, etc. Anyway, many of the Techs who worked there were from Laos (sp?).

Several of the guys there who were around my age (born in '56) swam the Mekong in the dead of the night to escape conscription. According to them, conscription consisted of someone coming to your house, putting a rifle in your hand and telling you to fight or die. These boys were only 14, 15 years old at the time.

They escaped to Taiwan and eventually relocated here in the US. One of the guys hadn't seen his Mom in close to 30 years, and returned to Laos in '99 for the first time since his Mekong swim. His life story was the stuff of legend; a hearty people, that's for sure.

408 posted on 05/25/2004 7:37:40 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: AlbionGirl
My barber is a woman who came over as a child during the fall of the south. Her husband has his own janitorial service. They, and their children, work their tales off six days a week.

A lot of their money goes back to Vietnam, where other members of their extended family can build homes and get ahead a bit.

I admire then a great deal.

409 posted on 05/25/2004 7:42:02 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: asmith92008
It's not just in old movies...it's from actual reporting,from inside Germany,at that time.But history not being your mietre,I try to use something,anything,I imagine you may be more conversant with.Unfortunately,you never are.

Jefferson said he wouldn't pay tribute,sent in what is now our Marines,but in the end,yes,he did "pay tribute",as did his successor.Do please look into this.

When Washington was president,the Atlantic Ocean was seen as a pretty good barrier,though not a perfect one.We fought the English,to get our independence,were helped by the French,though they were also viewed as our enemies,and the Hessians(Germans) fought on the side of the Brits,as did Irish.As a new nation,composed of colonists from all of those nations,it really was in our best interests to stay out of centuries old fights between European nations.

This is a far cry from that time period.Far too much has happened,for Americans to even slightly consider isolationism as an option.If the isolationists of the '40s had had their way,neither of us would be alive to post to FR,most probably...or we would be doing so in German or Japanese.

My quotations marks upset you,but your dearth of historical and cultural knowledge doesn't bother you? Interesting,that. LOL

410 posted on 05/25/2004 8:56:28 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: 21st Century Man

Yep,Ronald Reagan never lost his unbridled admiration for FDR. :-)


411 posted on 05/25/2004 8:59:32 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: MeekOneGOP

Thanks for the ping!


412 posted on 05/25/2004 9:28:20 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: nopardons
Never suggested military isolationism. I'm all for killing whatever yahoo needs killing in order to keep our nation safe. In the same vein, I don't think giving jet technology to a regime like China enhances our national security. My point is simply that increasing Boeing's bottom line does not automatically equate with increasing our national security.

As to my "dearth of historical and cultural knowledge," I'm fine with the fact that I don;t turn to Col. Klink or Rick's casino as my history lessons. Thus, I know that showing one's papers was a hallmark of many regimes, not just Germany.
413 posted on 05/25/2004 9:35:48 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: asmith92008
Have you any idea just HOE boring you are?

Either go back to the thread's topic,or talk to yourself.

414 posted on 05/25/2004 9:40:21 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Wow. Losing my dialog with you. Somehow, I'll manage. Good luck and Godspeed to you.
415 posted on 05/25/2004 9:42:56 PM PDT by asmith92008 (If we buy into the nonsense that we always have to vote for RINOs, we'll just end up taking the horn)
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To: asmith92008
This wasn't a dialog...it was the high-jacking of a thread,by you,which has been ennui enducing.

I hope you find someone else to talk to.

416 posted on 05/25/2004 9:53:44 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: 21st Century Man
Self-delusion is a sign of of an inability to cope with reality.

I think you're too hard on CWOJack. He isn't being self-deluding. He knows he's liberal. But he's trying to delude everybody else, by keeping his policy views (on everything except the Middle East) well hidden. He rants about Iraq, but not a peep about any issue of traditional concern for conservatives - abortion, taxes, immigration, environmental quackery, guns. Obviously, like a liberal, he doesn't care about these issues - - or he holds very liberal positions on them, and doesn't want the rest of us to know. I'm not deluded, and I suspect many others aren't, either.

417 posted on 05/25/2004 10:01:06 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: CWOJackson
"This is the second such thread trying to define neo-con. The other boiled down to anyone who doesn't support the defeatist position on the war in Iraq is a neo-con."

That is the accepted term. Neocon, sounding strangely familiar to the villainous words, "neonazi" and "con artist", is a word, whether hijacked or not, to mean, "supporting an amazing military achievement". It's a very ugly and sinister-sounding word, typically used by cocktail conservatives, who could also be called "no-cons", or "no account cons", "don quioti cons", or "con artist wannabes". It reminds me of how an unborn child is called a "fetus".
418 posted on 05/26/2004 2:10:29 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (Backhoe's Gorelick links: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1117579/posts)
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To: cyborg
code word for JOOZ

Nothing to with JOOZ, it's their VIEWS.

419 posted on 05/26/2004 2:18:04 AM PDT by iconoclast
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To: churchillbuff

The day you check in on a thread announcing we have captured a terror leader or broken up a terror cell and rejoice , the day you praise one good thing about progress in Iraq, I will believe you care about America's well being.

In the meantime you try to create discord between those of us who support the war and hold conservative values...very troll like IMHO. You are gleeful about bad news and that is a very disturbing pattern.

May God bless America and help us deter and defeat our enemies..


420 posted on 05/26/2004 4:37:11 AM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: MEG33

your# 420.....correct. All this talk over neocon this or that is nonsense. conservative values, as you say are the key.


421 posted on 05/26/2004 4:41:08 AM PDT by rrrod
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To: nopardons
When Washington was president,the Atlantic Ocean was seen as a pretty good barrier,though not a perfect one.We fought the English,to get our independence,were helped by the French,though they were also viewed as our enemies,and the Hessians(Germans) fought on the side of the Brits,as did Irish.As a new nation,composed of colonists from all of those nations,it really was in our best interests to stay out of centuries old fights between European nations.

What a bunch of rationalizations, to get around the clear intent and explained logic of Washington's position:

Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct, and can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and, at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt but, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it; can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! is it rendered impossible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another an habitual hatred, or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times, it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty of nations, has been the victim.

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducements or justifications. It leads also to concessions, to the favorite nation, of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions, by unnecessary parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted or deluded citizens who devote themselves to the favorite nation, facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak, towards a great and powerful nation, dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to beleive me fellow citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike for another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interst.

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as posssible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith:--Here let us stop.

Washington offered wisdom for the ages. We do not have his like in high office today. That is unfortunate, but no reason to mislead as to his message. There is absolutely nothing dated about his understanding of human nature and the wiles of men and nations. Open your eyes and you will see evidence of everything that Washington addressed.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

422 posted on 05/26/2004 9:08:08 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan

Here's a bump to my comments on this thread yesterday.


423 posted on 05/26/2004 9:54:10 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan

And a bump for George Washington.


424 posted on 05/26/2004 10:20:14 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan

And another bump for George Washington.


425 posted on 05/26/2004 10:57:05 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan

And another bump for George Washington.


426 posted on 05/26/2004 1:48:40 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan

Washington would have been eschewed as an isolationist by these phony conservatives.

Don't ya know FDR was a better president than Washington?

The dogs-of-war never have been content with just maintaining and protecting our sovereignty...that's why our borders are wide open and our rights eroded into privileges to be dangled by the elite.


427 posted on 05/26/2004 1:52:49 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
I think that anyone willing to take a couple of minutes to read the passages from Washington, that I posted, will realize that he was right on the mark--and as current as tomorrow--on all points. We need to try to get people to read this. It is the most effective answer to academic fluff airheads on the Left and phony "neo" right.

Frankly, I wish some Conservative group would start posting it in response to every internationalist post on usenet, for a few weeks and see what sort of reaction it would stir.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

428 posted on 05/26/2004 2:26:48 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan

The godless have always despised Washington, that's why we're in this current mess to begin with.

Washington left very specific instructions for his successors, but just like the Bible it has been discarded as an anachronism.

I suspect deep-down the NeoCons realize how much they've betrayed the Founding Fathers, but shrug it off as a prostitute departs from her conscience.

That's why many of their drones here resort to smear campaigns than debate the issue straight on. Deep-down they know they're NeoCon demigods are DEAD wrong.

What's really amusing is when they bring out the anti-semite card..."IT'S THE JOOOS". They don't even know history well enough to realize that most Muslims in the ME are more semitic than the European Jews running Israel.

Moreover, most conservatives realize that 9-11 was a direct result of foreign meddling for decades in the ME and elsewhere and it appears we're pursuing the very same ideology now.

God help us if a hostile islamic state REALLY gets its hand on WMD...nuclear weapons.

The people the NeoCons ar messing with have VERY long memories and have pursued their enemies for decades...


429 posted on 05/26/2004 3:07:49 PM PDT by 21st Century Man (POLITICS: THE NEW OPIATE OF THE MASSES)
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To: 21st Century Man
"The people the NeoCons ar messing with have VERY long memories...."

LOL...and inspire the terror of a gerbil.

430 posted on 05/26/2004 7:55:43 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Ohioan

Great retort to those who scorn much of our FF wisdom. And no pardon yet for the lack of a reply?

How typical.


431 posted on 05/26/2004 8:07:32 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: Ohioan

Great post and absolutely correct.

Too bad No-pardon-me is too busy on his daily dis-information campaign to find the time to even show up.


432 posted on 05/26/2004 8:21:04 PM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: 21st Century Man

Anyone that looks to FDR as a role model has serious problems with the Founding Fathers vision for the Republic.

Of course, FDR's hero was Lincoln, the father of BIG government and the man that killed the legacy of Washington.


433 posted on 05/26/2004 8:24:00 PM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: Veracious Poet

Not to mention his attempted Stalin-like stacking of the Supreme Court. Talk about a tyrannical move! I'm not much of a fan of FDR myself. (Hey Poet, liked the E A Robinson stuff you posted very much!)


434 posted on 05/26/2004 8:27:21 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: Veracious Poet

You misspelled Marx.

Perhaps a Lincoln man veraciously ate your lunch at some point?


435 posted on 05/26/2004 8:39:43 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: churchillbuff

Irv my how you go on.. Cut it short next time. You could have said this all in two paragraphs. Many will begin to think you write just to hear the keyboard click.. I on the other hand already know it. Irv, be brief. You're getting boring.. Talk, Talk, Talk and you never say anything meaningful, back to the shallow end of the pool. The deep water is for deep thinkers here at Free Republic.




436 posted on 05/26/2004 8:43:15 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Ohioan

Moving stuff. Boy, I'll tell you what though, minds like those come around once every 5 to 10 thousand years. Compare that writing, those thoughts to any modern President's stuff, and the only thing you sense is absence.


437 posted on 05/26/2004 8:52:14 PM PDT by AlbionGirl ("E meglio lavorare con qui non ti paga, e no ha parlare con qui non ti capisce!")
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To: AlbionGirl
To me the groaning of world-worshippers

Rings like a lonely music played in hell

By one with art enough to cleave the walls

Of heaven with his cadence, but without

The wisdom or the will to comprehend

The strangeness of his own perversity,

And all without the courage to deny

The profit and the pride of his defeat.

While we are drilled in error, we are lost

Alike to truth and usefulness. We think

We are great warriors now, and we can brag

Like Titans; but the world is growing young,

And we, the fools of time, are growing with it:

We do not fight to-day, we only die;

We are too proud of death, and too ashamed

Of God, to know enough to be alive. - E A Robinson

Wow, the more I read his words, the more I realize how fitting they are today.

VP Out

438 posted on 05/26/2004 9:22:46 PM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: tpaine

"You misspelled Marx."

I didn't even mention that dummkopf's name in the post, wishful thinking on your part perhaps?

"Perhaps a Lincoln man veraciously ate your lunch at some point?"

That my friend would be a fatal mistake for any fascist, especially one that seeks to maintain the lie about the greatest charlatan POTUS of the 19th Century.


439 posted on 05/26/2004 9:31:20 PM PDT by Veracious Poet (Cash cows are sacred in America...GOT MILKED???)
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To: Veracious Poet
FDR's hero was Lincoln, the father of BIG government and the man that killed the legacy of Washington.

You misspelled Marx.

I didn't even mention that dummkopf's name in the post, wishful thinking on your part perhaps?

Marx was FDR's hero, as a Lincoln basher would well know.

Perhaps a Lincoln man veraciously ate your lunch at some point? Would this account for your hate?

That my friend
-- I'm not your friend. --
would be a fatal mistake for any fascist,

Fat chance you would have the nerve to face a fascist down, even if he stole your lunch. Gratuitous bashers are petty men, not contenders.

especially one that seeks to maintain the lie about the greatest charlatan POTUS of the 19th Century.

Rant on of 'charlatans'. Lincoln faced down the biggest group of real charlatans ever assembled in this country, the southern frauds who owned slaves, but spouted hypocrisies about being free.
-- And he won.

440 posted on 05/26/2004 11:35:09 PM PDT by tpaine ("The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being." -- Solzhenitsyn)
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To: AlbionGirl
Compare that writing, those thoughts to any modern President's stuff, and the only thing you sense is absence.

Very true. The dumbing down of American Society in the 20th Century did certainly not miss the Oval Office.

What is impressive, throughout the Farewell Address, is how apt Washington's comments remain on all the subjects that he covers. It was truly an address for the ages, and should be required reading in every school--that is if we want to educate our youth in how to analyze problems, and avoid the very worst tendencies to which political man is prone.

William Flax

441 posted on 05/27/2004 10:47:47 AM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan
Another bump to my response #316, which deals with Mr. Kristol, the fatuous fellow who wrote the essay at the head of this thread.

The reason for this bump is to make sure that the actual subject of the thread does not get lost in some of the many side issues, some of us--quite possibly myself, included--are capable of getting into. And, to be completely honest, I think my #316 said what needed to be said.

442 posted on 05/27/2004 12:47:04 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: CWOJackson

What? Where's your usual "neocon is a codeword for jooz" post?


443 posted on 05/27/2004 11:34:46 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: Pelham

I don't do that one. I do do stupid patsy posts though.


444 posted on 05/27/2004 11:35:58 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Pelham

I'm sorry...I was still on line. I didn't mean to scare you. I'll leave now so you can feel safe to post and run again.


445 posted on 05/27/2004 11:36:46 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: churchillbuff

Kristol just hasn't gotten the word yet from FR's coast guard hero about what 'neocon' really means.


446 posted on 05/27/2004 11:39:29 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: Pelham
LOL! But he does have the word on what a patsy is. Sad pathetic little things these days.

Oh, by the way...your buddy Chamberlain Duff there seems to be missing in action. And all of his adoring fans have been waiting for his return.

447 posted on 05/27/2004 11:42:00 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: tpaine
the southern frauds who owned slaves

Like Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe? The Lincoln cult always has an excuse for the FF slave owners, let's hear yours-

448 posted on 05/27/2004 11:52:32 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: CWOJackson

Run off and hide if you need to. Your pals at DU are waiting.


449 posted on 05/27/2004 11:53:40 PM PDT by Pelham
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To: CWOJackson

Yep, your obsession with patsy is legendary. It's... abnormal, except in Massachusetts I suppose.


450 posted on 05/28/2004 12:00:00 AM PDT by Pelham
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