Skip to comments.The Neoconservative Persuasion
Posted on 05/24/2004 4:42:38 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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Oh boy, what's a day without a Chamberlainbuff thread.
I find that description of neo-conservatism particularly uncompelling.
This is the second such thread trying to define neo-con. The other boiled down to anyone who doesn't support the defeatist position on the war in Iraq is a neo-con.
I thought a neo-con was someone who thought we should secure Iraq's/Afghstains' borders and leave our borders unsecured. ;->
Same difference...same people using the term.
Please don't jerk that knee, it's not anti-semitism to state an obvious fact. This gives the opportunity to real anti-semites to claim that Dubya has been taken over by the Jewish neocons and to invade Iraq was not in U.S. interests. And the rest of the world claims that Israel runs U.S. foreign policy because of the predominant iterest of neocons in the Bush administration. If you don't believe it, just read some foreign newspapers.
I'm a conservative and don't need the "neo" label to identify my persuasion. At the same time, I think conservatism is the stronger for the contribution of disaffected liberals, since we used to be them and know how they think. In no small part, the Left is infuriated by people who successfully steal the thunder out of their arguments. As a result, the Left has been left with nothing to say. In no small part, the neocons have helped to make America, in Micklewaithe and Wooldridge's apt phrase, "The Right Nation."
I really don't much care what foreigners believe.
I've seen a couple of definitions:
one is a conservative Jew;
two is a Reagan democrat.
Finally, for a great power, the "national interest" is not a geographical term, except for fairly prosaic matters like trade and environmental regulation. A smaller nation might appropriately feel that its national interest begins and ends at its borders, so that its foreign policy is almost always in a defensive mode. A larger nation has more extensive interests.
"The business of America is business." - Calvin Coolidge.
code word for JOOZ
Then complain to Kristol or Podhoretz, because it's their word - one of them (I don't know which) coined it, if I understand correctly.
Oh, that's why Irving Kristol uses it to describe a certain political philosophy. He's a notorious anti-semite. (sarcasm)
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Here's the type of talk about neocons that I'm referring to.
The Left has its factions, too, but when the election happens, you better know that they ALL vote together by a large margin. They don't whine abour someone not being "Liberal Enough" on election n day, and skulk off to some whacko third party in a useless snit, or say "Good Riddance", they do whatever is necessary TO WIN the next election! Once in power, they figure, everything else works itself out if only their agenda is advanced, even a little.
Just THINK where we'd be now if conservatives - of ALL types - thought that way. We MIGHT even have avoided 8 years of Slick and his harridan wife. We MIGHT have not had to deal with 2000 and its aftermath, or the constant threat of the Dims taking the Senate, or even their still-powerful influence there. We MIGHT have enough pull AS ONE to kill stuff we find offensive, like amnesty and prescription drugs, in the cradle.
But NOOOOOoooo, we attack each other like dogs after a bone while the Dims just chuckle and encourage it.
Here's the facts...The President is a conservative leaning Republican. Is he perfect? No. However, he IS the best we can hope for in the current American political landscape. I hope no one has forgotten the influence of the media, Hollywood, academia, etc. nowadays. Ronald Reagan himself would have been demonized to a level you could not believe today. Oh, wait, sorry, he HAS been lately, hasn't he? His great fortune was that those he ran against were so incompetent and loathsome to voters then, he shined like the star he was through it all. We can't count on that today.
In November, one of two men will emerge as President...George Bush or John Kerry. Rail about that FACT all you want, but it is still the truth. What do you want, a comitted Leftist who wouldn't give a conservative's views the time of day, or a Right-leaning Republican who will at least listen to the Right? Which one do you want choosing judges, appointing government officials, or prosecuting the Terror War? You have ONLY those two choices, you know, and sorry, staying home is not only intellectual and political laziness, but in time of war, is a near-criminal abrogation of your responsibilities as a citizen.
Current poll numbers indicate that the President is in a tight spot at best. He SHOULD be running far in the lead, with the economy picking up steam, and the public rallying around him in wartime. His ENTIRE side of the political spectrum should be behind him now. Rest assured, the Dims are fully behind Kerry, and don't expect Nader to save us this time...they're already well into their attacks on HIM, and their other means to confound him. To put it bluntly, we are now facing "Broken Glass Democrats". If the President was as much of a Liberal as some claim, why are they so fired up to defeat him?
We need to get some clues, and a grip. Those who think that a Kerry presidency wouldn't be too bad, because THEN we'd get a "REAL conservative" replacing him, are living in 1980.
Thinking like that gave us Clinton's second term.
It is my personal belief that Pat Buchanan himself thinks this, which is why he's doing his level best to help Kerry by fracturing the President's base...he fancies HIMSELF the "conservative white knight" who will ride in and save us all. He would look just fine in a Napoleon suit. This is NOT 1980, folks. Like it or not, the country has changed since then, and those on the Left have done everything they can to eliminate the possibility of another Reagan humiliating them like that once more.
Religious, Libertarian, Constitutionalist, Republican, we are ALL "The Right". We either stick together, and advance our agenda (one step at a time if need be) or we give up and let the Dims have everything. We'll have no one to complain about but ourselves, then.
For God's sake, END this stupid "eating our own" crap. It gets us NOTHING but defeat, at the hands of those we ALL are SUPPOSED to be resisting.
A so-called Neo-Con can also be expected to vote for lower taxes, if politely persuaded. Likewise, he is amenable to less gun control. A libertarian supports MOST of the things we do, why not find the common ground and give a little once the Left is defeated? At least they can be talked to about these things, the Left most assuredly cannot.
My version of paradise is an America with NO "Leftists", whom I believe are an anomaly anyway. Wouldn't it be great if the Left were so discredited and defeated that they never posed a serious threat again, and the main argument was between Libertarians, say, and Conservatives? Or between Conservatives and Neo-Cons? Sure, we'd have some disagreements, but we'd ALL get at least SOMETHING we wanted. Most of the disagreements PALE in comparison to those we have with the Left, anyway.
And isn't the thought of Hillary, Pelosi, and Kennedy having to finally WORK for a living a nice one?
We CAN make it happen, folks.
I am just as sick of the likes of you as I am of the media.
Sounds like class warfare rhetoric to me.
And if the Left, with all its PC nonsense, were utterly defeated, as we COULD do if we all stood as one against them, wouldn't it be MORE likely to happen?
What DIFFERENCE does it make where they are more comfortable? Politically, they are STILL more alike than either is with the Left. Having Conservatives in both places is a good thing anyway.
I'd say the same about you - except it wouldn't be true. Unlike you, I'm not "sick" of other conservatives who don't agree with me 100 percent on every issue. I believe in free thought and the freedom to engage in independent analysis, not lockstep agreement.
Why in the WORLD would someone on the Right wish to help them do their dirty work?
I am not sick of conservatives who don't agree with me on every issue.
I am sick of people like you who are doing every single thing you can 24/7 to make sure John Kerry wins in November.
Don't deny it; everybody here knows it's true.
Chamberlainbuff here is nothing but a Quisling.
Evening Lord Haw Haw...your adoring fans enjoy the show.
FINE, Buff. But just remember who the REAL enemy is on election day.
And don't do their dirty work for them, even in good conscience.
When 9-11 happened, ALL Americans, regardless of politics, became Brothers against a common foe. Defeating that foe, and doing so politically to the Left, requires similar unity on our part.
Just let us WIN, and we can fix what ails you later, and without the Left mucking up the process.
But I' willing to put my money where my mouth is, and be polite to CB. That's what I'll do on my side to promote the unity we need to WIN. It goes both ways, after all.
The sniping and the fracturing has gone WAY TOO FAR at this point.
Tell you all what...let's win the freakin' election, get Republicans controlling the Senate and House, and we can deal with all the disagreements then.
Oh, and need I say that the constant infighting among US does ZERO to win the war, which very directly concerns me?
Look, I know there's bad blood all over, hell, I've even taken a chunk of flesh or two myself. But seeing the way the campaign is going lately, and understanding the implications thereof, wouldn't it be best for all America if we could take care of the main problem first, and settle the family squabbles later, at our lesiure?
I know I'm probably dreaming, but wouldn't it still be great if it WORKED?
I'd so like to see Hillary mopping floors.
The conservative wing of the party has always been opposed to placing regulations and restrictions on business.
I'm not at all persuaded that you're a conservative. Obviously you're for the invasion of Iraq, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're a conservative, because many Democrats - including Kerry - voted for the invasion.
As for traditional conservative issues, such as tax cuts, pro-life, confirmation of conservative judges, immigration control, fighting racial quotas, reducing spending, I've never seen you comment. Guess you don't car about these issues.
Translation: you're not a "conservative" by any traditional defitintion, you're just some guy who favors war in Iraq.
Have a great day!
As long as the Republicans are forced to deal with the Left's daily bombardments, they have to compromise to get anything at all done.
If they were no longer a factor in politics, do you really think those things would have even been proposed?
Okay, some might, but they would have been defeated soundly. And there are very few on the Right who don't have to run for office who supported them...that includes neocons, libertarians, and conservatives.
And I will work and vote for Bush. Kerry as President would be even more amoral and scary than Clinton. His foreign policies would be disastrous. We lived through 4 years of Carter and 8 years of Clinton but in these times even 4 years of Kerry could do irreparable damage.
can't disagree with you there
Kerry or ANY Dim wouldn't even care.
Unless my understanding of the US political system is seriously flawed, President Bush is the leader of the GOP and has proposed what amounts to rewarding people who have broken our laws.
Whats the answer? Well, we could force those that swear an oath to support/defend the USCON to do what they swore to do.
Although, I could pull out the image of Pelosi turning tricks on a corner for a buck a pop.
Hundreds of Americans dying every month in Iraq - - that's what's helping Kerry. My pointing out that the Iraq policy should be changed isn't what's helping Kerry, it's the huge flaws in that policy that are helping him.
correction: scores of Americans. (though the sad numbers go up and down)
You are a liar.
The President hasn't brought the issue up again, after he LISTENED to us on it. It's also dead in the Congress, once again because we were LISTENED to.
The Dims would put in earplugs.
Is that your only, or primary concern? If so, it can ONLY be fixed to your liking by a Republican. No Dim would even consider it.
As long as we STICK TOGETHER, we can defeat the Leftist Dims who so love this stuff. Then, we can fix it at our leisure, instead of always battling them about it.
How many Americans died in Iraq in April?
Strawman. You lied.
And to think, they are dying so you can post your drivel on this site.
You should be ashamed.
I believe the tragic number is 174.
Bloomberg News Service; Bush Says `Tough Times Ahead' in Iraq (May 13)
May 13 (Bloomberg) -- President George W. Bush said the U.S. will remain ``on the offensive'' through ``tough times'' to ensure freedom for Iraq and prevent terrorists from striking again on American soil.
...Last month, 174 Americans died in combat in Iraq, and the release two weeks ago of photos showing U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison sparked outrage worldwide. For the first time, a majority of Americans -- 51 percent -- said the war was going poorly, the Pew Center for the Public Press poll said after a poll May 3-9. The president, 57, is trying to bolster Republican support in what promises to be a very close election against Kerry, 60, a four-term Massachusetts senator, said Mark Rozell, chairman of the political department at Catholic University. Bush's job approval rating in the Pew poll fell to 44 percent, from 48 percent in April, after the prisoner abuse revelations. Bush called the conduct of those soldiers ``disgraceful'' and said it didn't represent the character of U.S. military personnel. `Disgruntlement' Republicans are divided over spending and Iraq, said Greg Valliere, chief political strategist at Schwab Soundview Capital markets. ``This growing rift over Iraq has to be unsettling to the White House because it's contributing to the overall drop in his job rating and in support for the war,'' he said. The U.S. military is now spending $4.5 billion to $5 billion a month in Iraq and Afghanistan and needs an ``emergency reserve fund'' of $25 billion to meet that expense, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz told the Senate Armed Services Committee today. The Pentagon spent $66.2 billion in Iraq from January 2003 through February of this year and last month decided to keep more troops than planned following insurgencies that produced the fiercest battles in a year. The president ``is trying to avoid the political mistake of his father, which was to assume the automatic support of the base,'' Rozell said. ``He needs to address any conservative disgruntlement right now, before it gets politically serious.'' `Shaky Weeks' ``One of the most damaging criticisms of Bush is that he hasn't made his case forcefully or frequently enough, so speeches like tonight's are crucial as the president seeks to regain his balance after several shaky weeks,'' Valliere said earlier today. There are ``tough times ahead'' in Iraq, Bush said. ``We will win this essential victory in the war of terror.'' ``This is the work that history has set before us,'' Bush said. ``We welcome it.'' Bush has never used his presidential veto power on a spending bill while budgets have gone from a surplus of $236.9 billion to a deficit of $374.2 billion over the last three years. Stephen Moore, president for the Club for Growth, a pro- Republican tax-cut advocacy group, has said Bush hasn't shown a commitment to getting deficits under control. Bush said Kerry would raise taxes to pay for increased government spending. Kerry has proposed repealing Bush's tax cuts for families making more than $200,000 a year. Mobilizing Voters Ultimately, ``the right will be solidly pro-Bush in the election,'' Valliere said. ``The prospect of a Kerry presidency will be more than sufficient to mobilize conservative voters.'' ``It's very ominous'' that Bush is speaking to a group that spent $12 million on an anti-abortion advertisement campaign and supports eliminating the tax code, Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe said on a conference call. ``For George Bush to have to go tonight to the American Conservative Union at a time when he should be talking to swing voters'' does not bode well for his campaign, McAuliffe said. ``On the fundamental issues of our time, conservatives have been right,'' Bush said. ``I am proud to advance these convictions and these principles as I stand for re-election.''
Ditto what? Howlin's snarlingly ignorant claim that I'm a "liar"? Sorry, but 174 Americans dies in Iraq last month. If the news stories that reported that number were wrong, please provide evidence.
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