Minnesota CCW: Law enforcers brace for change in gun culture

St. Paul Pioneer Press ^ | May. 28, 2003 | LISA DONOVAN

[jdege]

Law enforcers brace for change in gun culture

BY LISA DONOVAN
Pioneer Press

Twin Cities law enforcement officials see the new handgun law that takes effect today as the start of a cultural change that requires officers and others to get used to seeing law-abiding residents carrying firearms.

From officers making traffic stops to the influx of 911 calls from residents concerned about someone with a gun sticking out of a purse, police and the public are in for a learning curve that may take months, said St. Paul and Minneapolis police officials and others.

"I think the biggest thing is going to be, cops are trained to be observers, and if they start to see more and more guns on people, that will take some getting used to," said John Delmonico, who heads the Minneapolis police union.

It may come as a surprise, too, that the law does not require a permit holder to conceal the weapon, and that may generate more 911 calls, St. Paul Police Chief William Finney predicts.

"The law doesn't say they have to be concealed, it says it could be on or about their person, so you're going to have people carrying their pistol in a holster, hanging on their hip like the cowboys used to," Finney said. "We're anticipating more people carrying a gun — partially concealed or concealed, and they're going to be some other people out there seeing this and feel their safety is threatened and they're going to call police."

The law allows the state's 87 sheriffs to grant permits to any law-abiding applicant who is at least 21 years old and has completed a gun-safety course.

Already the state has about 12,000 permit holders, and predictions are that figure could expand to as many as 80,000 over the next several years. That increase means police will have to adapt to an armed public.

Florida's 1987 conceal-and-carry law changed little about the way law enforcement conducted business, said Jim Spearing, lobbyist for the union that represents about 30,000 law enforcement officers statewide.

"The cops in this region of the country don't fear an armed populace. Say you're stopped and you've got a gun in the car — (you say) 'I've got a permit, I've got a .45,' and then you're going to put your hands on the dash."

The State Patrol is working on a policy that will guide its troopers through a traffic stop.

"We worked on a couple of new scenarios with rookies handling car stops with permit holders, where someone says, 'I have a gun and I have a permit' and you're (the trooper) standing outside their car door. What do you do? I don't have the answer," said Sgt. Al Freng, with the State Patrol's training academy.

Freng said the patrol is planning for instances when a permit holder is stopped on suspicion of drunken driving.

"It puts the trooper into a bad situation. It may be a nonviolent, routine stop, and this person may no longer appreciate you being there. And now they're armed," Freng said.

It's possible police may add guns to their list of questions about drugs and alcohol, though a recent court ruling may prohibit that.

For Ramsey County Sheriff Bob Fletcher, the pool of applicants will answer the question of how law enforcement officers adapt to the new law.

"Once we know who we're dealing with — is it all 50-year-old men? Is it all guys who are 25 years old?" Fletcher said. "The demographic stuff will give us a sense of the type of people we're dealing with."

For now, law enforcement officials are offering armed permit holders a bit of advice in the event they are pulled over.

First of all, don't make any sudden movements and identify yourself immediately as a permit carrier and say where your gun is located, said Lt. Col. Steve Mengelkoch, assistant chief of the State Patrol. And whatever you do, keep your hands in view.

Finally, wait for the trooper or officer's next instructions.

"The safety of the officer and the motorist is utmost," Mengelkoch said.

[jdege]

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[agitator]

Cops panic mongering over being equal. What a country.

[Monty22]

Their system of concealed or not is awesome. Texas could use that.

[eno_]

"The cops in this region of the country don't fear an armed populace. Say you're stopped and you've got a gun in the car — (you say) 'I've got a permit, I've got a .45,' and then you're going to put your hands on the dash."

Wow, you mean mutual respect means less fear? Maybe they can try that up in Minnesota, ya think?

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Another anniversary story from a lazy journal.

[eno_]

In New Hampshire, unconcealed carry does not require a permit. In Vermont, no permit needed for any possesion of a gun.

[Monty22]

As more people carry guns and see the benefits, I'm hoping that the 'right to keep and bear arms' will return to its real meaning. Concealed or not.

[Billthedrill]

"We worked on a couple of new scenarios with rookies handling car stops with permit holders, where someone says, 'I have a gun and I have a permit' and you're (the trooper) standing outside their car door. What do you do? I don't have the answer," said Sgt. Al Freng, with the State Patrol's training academy.

Al, if you really don't have the answer you need to take up flower arrangement for a living. It isn't as if the LEOs of 38 other states haven't addressed this situation.

All of this "sky is falling" nonsense occurs every time the anti-gun nazis lose a round. They keep saying the streets are going to run red with blood...but it never seems to happen. Doesn't stop 'em from bleating, though, does it?

[jdege]

The State Patrol is working on a policy that will guide its troopers through a traffic stop.

"Working"? The law has been in effect for a year.

Clearly they aren't pulling over permit holders very often.

[CPOSharky]

Looks like these cops have not bothered to look at any of the states that already have concealed and/or open carry much less the states that do not require permits.

(Oh my God, I saw a gun, call 911!)

[longtermmemmory]

It may come as a surprise, too, that the law does not require a permit holder to conceal the weapon, and that may generate more 911 calls, St. Paul Police Chief William Finney predicts.

WRONG, in part. You don't need a permit to carry OPENLY. Its a CONCEALED carry permit, not a CARRY permit.

What are these elected chiefs real problem? fear that crime may go down? Citizens may feal re-empowered and not beholding to police?

Every state that has CCW has had a decrease in crime.

[stylin_geek]

Same in AZ. And the law, in AZ, is broad enough to allow conceal/carry in a car, without a permit, providing the gun is in a holster.

[jdege]

WRONG, in part. You don't need a permit to carry OPENLY. Its a CONCEALED carry permit, not a CARRY permit.

Minnesota law does not distinguish between open and concealed carry.

There are some states that allow open carry without a permit, and require a permit for concealed carry.

Minnesota is not one of these.

It's against the law to carry without a permit, whether open or concealed. And if you have a permit, it's legal, both open and concealed.

[longtermmemmory]

Then it should be called a carry permit not a CCW if there is a distinction.

[jdege]

It's called a "Permit to Carry a Pistol". There's nothing on the permit or in the law that says anything about "concealed".

The local media has been corrected on this many times, but it doesn't seem to stick.

[Hardastarboard]

G-d, no kidding. The guy tells you he's armed and has a permit so you know about in advance, and you don't know how to react? Agreed, take up flower arranging, or maybe get a job at Krispy Kreme. And make sure they don't make you do any of that stressful counter work.

[longtermmemmory]

ahhh, yet again FR provides better information than the media alone.

[JudgemAll]

AH, shucks, any wish means a threat, and the wish for cops to not have to work hysterical callers who are false witnessing is just such a threat against law abiding citizens.

Carry a gun, and no one will wish anything on you, and threatless peace will reign.

[gripper]

here in the Peoples Republic of Massghanistan,we've been fighting a lonely scrap for a LONG time(Ch180);but there is yet a glimmer of hope.The state senate released from committe a number of partial reforms.Still an uncertain outcome and a long ,bruising fight to be expected,but we may YET get out from under the "discretion"of our "betters".