Posted on 06/12/2004 5:30:05 PM PDT by FairOpinion
RIYADH: A leading Saudi-owned newspaper reported Saturday that four Libyan-recruited would-be assassins of Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz were members of Al Qaeda, the network blamed for the terror that has hit Saudi Arabia in the past 13 months.
Saudi officials have not commented on the alleged plot to murder Abdullah or spoken of retaliatory measures, but Asharq Al-Awsat’s claim came as other Saudi newspapers assailed Libyan leader Moamer Gaddafi for the second day in a row.
The daily Okaz also sought to link Libya to the wave of bombings and shootings which began in Saudi Arabia in May 2003, quoting unspecified sources as “not ruling out the involvement of Libyan intelligence in some of the recent bombings and killings.”
The New York Times reported on Thursday that two people involved in a plot to fire rockets at Abdullah’s motorcade had been detained in the United States and Saudi Arabia and that the plot was being investigated by Washington, Riyadh and London.
The two were named as Abdurahman Almoudi, an American arrested in October for violating a US ban on travel to Libya, and Colonel Mohammed Ismael, a Libyan intelligence officer captured by Egyptian police in November after he fled Saudi Arabia where he tried to pay four Saudi militants. Libya has denied the allegations.
Reporting from Jeddah, Asharq Al-Awsat said Ismael fled from the Rea Sea port city to Cairo last November after he saw Saudi security forces besieging a hotel in nearby Mecca in which the four Saudis affiliated to Al Qaeda, and who were supposed to carry out the assassination, were staying.
The four were to use shoulder-held or armor-piercing missiles in the assassination, it said, adding that the hotel was located opposite the palace where Abdullah was due to stay.
The plot was uncovered thanks to the measures Saudi Arabia has introduced to monitor the flow of money into the country, the paper quoted reliable sources as saying in a reference to the tighter controls meant to prevent terror financing which began after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.
An employee in a branch of Al-Rajhi Bank in Mecca became suspicious of a one-million-dollar transfer to Ismael, who said it was meant to cover the expenses of Gaddafi ‘s wife during a pilgrimage trip to the Muslim holy city.
Saudi authorities put Ismael under surveillance and eventually raided a hotel apartment where the four Saudi Al Qaeda recruits were staying and arrested them, prompting the Libyan intelligence officer to flee to Egypt.
Security authorities immediately contacted their Egyptian counterparts, who arrested Ismael as soon as he landed in Cairo and put him on a plane back to Saudi Arabia, the paper said.
The daily Al-Watan gave a slightly different account of the run-up to Ismael’s flight to Egypt but named a second Libyan security agent — Abdul Fattah al-Ghosh — who accompanied him and was sent back to Saudi Arabia. afp
10-1 when all is said and done, they will explain how the Jews did it.
If the Saudi populace won't fall for the "Zionists did it" I don't see why they'd fall for the Libyans.
Seems the House of Saud getting desperate, using a possible Libyan plot arising from a personal dispute to explain all their troubles.
Pakistan Daily News???????????
No Comment.
Might as well grab the National Enquirer.
The New York Times, or Washington Post, on the other hand, are such really reliable papers... Is that your point?
No Comment.
Might as well grab the National Enquirer.
To: Bismarck The New York Times, or Washington Post, on the other hand, are such really reliable papers... Is that your point?
The NATIONAL ENQUIRER is more reliable and factual than either rag you mention...
Are you happier to read it on a US paper?
Here it is, from AP:
Saudi Report Links al-Qaida to Slay Plot
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/93-06122004-315575.html
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Government-owned newspapers Saturday condemned an alleged Libyan plot to kill Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, and one paper said four al-Qaida militants recruited to carry out the assassination had been arrested.
===
As I said before, this makes a lot more sense.
If Kaddafi had been planning such attack, he wouldn't have given up his WMD and cooperated with the US, or once he cooperated with us, he revealed a lot of stuff, and if there was anything planned, he would have told us about that too.
The Libyan intelligence probably has ties to Al Qaeda, same as the Pakistani intel services, and so on. Finding the moles are not easy.
Quite likely that Kaddaffi may have worked with Al Qaeda too -- I presonally think that some attack warnings we had, and presumably some very serious attacks that were foiled right around the time Kaddafi was cooperating with us, was based on info we got from him, but nobody wanted to say that in the open.
The Associated Press reported it by now too -- see my post 7.
Foreign newspapers frequently report factual news before US papers do.
"It makes more sense that Al Qaeda infiltrated the Libyan intel services, than that Kadaffi was involved."
Yeah, he is such a good guy. He is our friend now and we can trust him. /Sarcasm
I don't read the NYT or the Washington Post. It's either the Wall Street Journal or the Financial Times. Lately I am reading more the Financial Times because that's the newspaper I get for free at work.
Qadaffi is quite a character. Does he have ties with Al Qaida? I don't know. As far as I know, Islamic fundamentalist define him as an "apostate" for his secularism.
It isn't the question of Kaddafi being a "good guy" -- he is obviously not stupid and has strong survival instincts. It would be incredibly stupid on his part to work with Al Qaeda now.
Did it occur to anyone, that Al Qaeda may be setting him up, as punishment for his cooperation with the US, to drive a wedge between the US and Libya? Again, to me this would make much more sense.
Can anyone explain the DOWNSIDE to Lybian success in killing the Prince?
Semper Fi
The prince is a moderate -- if he is killed, the Irani style Mullahs will take over.
They would probably elect Bin Laden as Prime Minister.
That's a definite downside.
Dear Fair Opinion,
You wrote, "Did it occur to anyone, that Al Qaeda may be setting him up, as punishment for his cooperation with the US, to drive a wedge between the US and Libya? Again, to me this would make much more sense."
That is a good point except that the guy the US caught, Alamoudi, is telling all this. Do you think he is making up his confession to embarrass Kadafi? The Brits caught him with a bag of money and then put him on the plane to the US and told us to grab him when the plane landed.
He lives in Falls Church. Me too. The Falls Church Imam for our local mosque was tied to 9-11 and lived around the corner from my old house.
Up the street is a building with the office of Aziz Al Taee, the man who sold crack for the Russian mafia in Philadelphia and then went into business with Nick Berg.
All these terrorists are right here where I live. A lot of Muslims here do have sympathies with terrorists. The Imam was like Aldouri, the man who was allegedly conspiring with Qadaffi. The Imam pretended to be a moderate but was really a wold in sheep's clothing.
The mosque here is full of terrorist groups. Alamoudi's lawyer Nawash (sp?) ran for public office in the district near the mosque. They are getting into politics. Alamoudi was worming his way into the Clinton administration. Aziz supported regime change in his organization and presented himself as close to Bush.
Really I think Aziz was a criminal whose organization, the American Iraqi Council, was holding workshops to help Americans do business in Iraq. Nick Berg contacted Aziz and went into business with him in Iraq. I think this "political" emigre organization was really a criminal front. Aziz had been involved with the Russian mafia in Philadelphia selling crack. He also sold pirated CDs. He was going to be deported. I think there are some ties here with Al Qaeda and criminals--perhaps the Russian mafia. The terrorists probably get weapons from them. Anyway, the Falls Church/Annandale area is full of terrorists and their con-men friends. I went to the police and told them that this American Iraqi Council had this criminal in it and that Aziz had been in business with Berg. The policewoman treated me like I was crazy and said not to worry because if I read it in the paper the Feds would be on it. Well, it would be nice if the cops would keep their eyes peeled too. She told me they don't get into that. Still, they are right here where the terrorists are living and have their front companies. Get this. The American Iraqi Council was in the same building as the Annandale Chamber of Commerce. It's time to get out the Raid.
Gee, whatever happened to the so-called Muslim Brotherhood solidarity??
/sarcasm off.
If that became the case .....then the "enemy" would have a "State" that could be attacked and destroyed..
Saudi Arabian Wahhabism is the enemy's heart and soul and pocketbook..
What a wonderful opportunity to kill the beast...
Now, give me another "down side"..
Semper Fi
The story broke in the NY Times and was in the Washington Post. Alamoudi is locked up in Alexandria and will probably have his trial in the court there. It is called the "rocket docket" and is where we try spies and terrorists. Both Alamoudi and his Lybian accomplice seem to be telling the same story.
Here is the Washington Post account and below that the NYT account. I hope it is ok to paste these since it is for educational purposes. What are the rules about this?
U.S., Others Probe Alleged Gaddafi Plot Against Saudi Ruler
By John Mintz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 10, 2004; Page A12
The U.S., British and Saudi governments are investigating allegations that Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi launched a plot to assassinate the ruler of Saudi Arabia and to destabilize the desert kingdom with the help of a prominent Muslim activist from Falls Church, according to an account in the New York Times that was backed up by an informed source with knowledge of the case.
Late last year Gaddafi renounced his program to develop Libyan weapons of mass destruction, in an apparent abandonment of years of pariah status, only after the alleged plot to kill Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah was exposed by a Libyan intelligence official and the Virginia-based activist, who were both alleged participants in the plot, said the Times and the informed source.
U.S., British and Saudi officials are investigating accounts of Gaddafi's supposed role in the plot that were given by Col. Mohamed Ismael, a Libyan intelligence official, and Abdurahman Alamoudi, a longtime Muslim activist who is facing federal charges of violating U.S. sanctions against doing business with Libya. Alamoudi allegedly received $340,000 in cash from Libyan officials, the source said.
Alamoudi offered his account of the alleged plot to U.S. prosecutors during plea negotiations over pending charges against him, the source said.
A source who had detailed knowledge of the events confirmed the Times account.
If the allegations of a Libyan plot to kill a foreign leader were confirmed, it would almost certainly cause the United Nations to reinstate sanctions against Libya that were lifted last year after Gaddafi renounced terrorism and acknowledged responsibility for the 1988 bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland.
Alamoudi told U.S. officials he met twice with Gaddafi last year to talk about the plot, said the Times and the informed source. According to Alamoudi, Gaddafi said in the first meeting, "I want the crown prince killed either through assassination or through a coup." At another session a few months later, Gaddafi asked why he had not yet seen "heads flying" in the Saudi royal family, the Times and the source said.
Gaddafi and Abdullah feuded publicly at an Arab summit meeting in early 2003 -- shortly before the U.S. invasion of Iraq -- with Gaddafi telling the Saudi ruler at one point, "Your lies precede you, and your grave is in front of you."
Ismael was arrested in Egypt after a trip to Saudi Arabia during which, he said, he arranged for a group of Saudi men to look into attacking Abdullah, the Times and the source said. He confessed to the plot and was later transferred to Saudi Arabia, where he gave a full statement.
Last year Ismael and Alamoudi traveled to London and tried to recruit Saudi dissidents to join in the plot by distributing cash, the Times and the source said in summarizing the two men's statements.
Phone calls to attorneys for Alamoudi were not returned late last night. Alamoudi, founder of the American Muslim Council and other prominent Islamic groups, has denied the pending criminal charges.
NYT---June 10, 2004
Two Are Said to Tell of Libyan Plot to Kill Saudi Ruler
By PATRICK E. TYLER
ASHINGTON, June 9 — While the Libyan leader, Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, was renouncing terrorism and negotiating the lifting of sanctions last year, his intelligence chiefs ordered a covert operation to assassinate the ruler of Saudi Arabia and destabilize the oil-rich kingdom, according to statements by two participants in the conspiracy.
Those participants, Abdurahman Alamoudi, an American Muslim leader now in jail in Alexandria, Va., and Col. Mohamed Ismael, a Libyan intelligence officer in Saudi custody, have given separate statements to American and Saudi officials outlining the plot.
Mr. Alamoudi, has told Federal Bureau of Investigation officials and federal prosecutors that Colonel Qaddafi approved the assassination plan. Mr. Qaddafi's son, in an interview in London, called the accusation "nonsense."
American officials confirm that Mr. Alamoudi and Mr. Ismael have offered detailed accounts of a Libyan plot to assassinate Crown Prince Abdullah and that they appear to be credible enough to have launched an American investigation. But the officials said they are still examining the scope of the plot, how far it advanced and whether Colonel Qaddafi was involved. They said the accusations were one reason the United States had not removed Libya from the State Department's list of nations that support terrorism.
On Wednesday, a senior administration official said: "We are fully aware of Libya's significant past involvement with terrorism. Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi has pledged to end Libya's ties with terrorism and cooperate with the United States and our allies in the war on terrorism. We continue to monitor closely Libya's adherence to this pledge."
As a revolutionary who overthrew a monarchy, Colonel Qaddafi has long regarded the Saudi royal family with a degree of contempt. The feeling was often mutual as he charted an erratic course in the Middle East. In recent years, however, Saudi and British diplomats worked behind the scenes to help Libya negotiate an end to sanctions resulting from the Libyan terrorist operation that downed Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988.
Mr. Alamoudi's statements were offered in plea negotiations with federal prosecutors that are not complete. He was indicted last October in the United States District Court in Alexandria accused of violating United States sanctions by traveling to Libya and receiving money from Libyan officials.
Under federal guidelines, prosecutors could urge a judge to reduce his prison term in exchange for his statements, criminal lawyers said.
The statements of the two conspirators were described by three people with extensive official knowledge of the case who insisted that they not be identified because information about it remains classified in intelligence and law enforcement channels. Senior officials in the American, British and Saudi governments have been aware of the investigation of the assassination plot for several months.
Colonel Qaddafi and Crown Prince Abdullah clashed at the Arab summit meeting that immediately preceded the war in Iraq. The two leaders exchanged insults in open session, accusing each other of selling out to colonial powers. An indignant Prince Abdullah glared at Colonel Qaddafi and said, "Your lies precede you and your grave is in front of you."
A Libyan terrorist plot, if verified by American, British and Saudi governments who are working in close coordination to investigate it, would undermine Colonel Qaddafi's public pledges that his government has abandoned terrorism. It could also trigger a reinstatement of international sanctions on Libya that were lifted by the United Nations Security Council last September after Colonel Qaddafi's government renounced terrorism, admitted responsibility for the 1988 Pan Am 103 bombing and agreed to pay $10 million compensation to the families.
A senior Bush administration official said that the emergence of convincing evidence that Colonel Qaddafi ordered or condoned an assassination and terror campaign could cause a "180 degree" change of American policy toward Libya.
President Bush has conveyed to the Saudi royal family that he is going to find out what happened in the alleged conspiracy, according to a diplomat.
Mr. Alamoudi has told prosecutors that he twice met with Colonel Qaddafi, in June and August of 2003, to discuss details of the assassination plan, according to people with official access to his statements. In June, Mr. Alamoudi said, Colonel Qaddafi told him, "I want the Crown Prince killed either through assassination or through a coup." By August, according to Mr. Alamoudi's account, Colonel Qaddafi asked why he had not yet seen "heads flying" in the Saudi royal family.
Mr. Alamoudi's account is critical for federal prosecutors because it ties the terrorist plot that has been said to exist to a head of state. For that reason, Mr. Alamoudi has been questioned in great detail about his two meetings with Colonel Qaddafi, including descriptions of the Libyan leader's farm in Sidra, where they reportedly met in June, and of Colonel Qaddafi's office in Tripoli, where they reportedly met in August.
F.B.I. investigators from the Washington field office are trying to arrange meetings with two of Mr. Alamoudi's associates to whom he confided details of the plot as further corroboration.
The first person to provide Saudi, the British and American authorities with an account of a plot was Colonel Ismael, 36, who was captured by Egyptian police after he fled Saudi Arabia last November in an aborted "drop" of $1 million to a team of four Saudi militants who were prepared to attack Prince Abdullah's motorcade with shoulder-fired missiles or grenade launchers, according to his statements.
Colonel Ismael has said that his orders to be operational commander of the plot came from Libyan intelligence chiefs, Abdullah Senoussi and Musa Kussa, both of whom report directly to Colonel Qaddafi, according to the people who described the statements.
F.B.I. and Central Intelligence Agency officers have twice traveled to Saudi Arabia to interview Colonel Ismael. Investigators are said to believe that the account matches that of Mr. Alamoudi and that, taken together, the accounts could form the basis of a criminal indictment against Colonel Qaddafi on charges of leading a conspiracy that included an American citizen, Mr. Alamoudi.
Mr. Kussa played a leading role last fall with American and British intelligence teams to work out a surrender of Libya's illicit weapons programs.
F.B.I. officials have yet to interview the four Saudis who were to carry out the assassination attempt, but Saudi officials said that they would agree to make them available upon receiving a request.
The Saudis were arrested Nov. 27 as they prepared to receive $1 million in cash from Colonel Ismael and a team of Libyan intelligence officers at the Hilton Hotel in Mecca. The hotel overlooks the holiest shrine in Islam. Though two people with access to the statements of Mr. Alamoudi and Colonel Ismael said that the plan to attack Prince Abdullah was to strike his motorcade with armor-piercing missiles or rocket-propelled grenades, a third person said there was a suspicion that the four Saudis arrested in Mecca were going to fire their weapons at Prince Abdullah's apartment, also overlooking the shrine.
In the reported conspiracy, Mr. Alamoudi and Colonel Ismael traveled to London seeking to make contacts among Saudi dissidents through whom they could recruit militants in the kingdom willing to participate in the plot. They distributed more than $2 million in cash in this recruitment drive in London, according to the account of their statements.
Colonel Qaddafi's son, Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi, described the reported plot as "nonsense" in an interview in London, though he acknowledged that the Libyan intelligence officer, Colonel Ismael, was missing and presumed by Libya to be in Saudi custody.
"I don't know exactly what he is saying in custody, but I can guarantee that nobody asked him to create cells and assassinate people," the young Mr. Qaddafi said.
Mr. Qaddafi said he could not say whether Colonel Ismael was an intelligence officer. "I don't know in fact, but maybe yes and maybe no," he said.
Colonel Qaddafi also indicated that there may have been a "misunderstanding" over Libyan support for what he called "reform" in Saudi Arabia.
"If we support the people who want to reform Saudi Arabia, if doesn't mean we are working against the government," he said.
Mr. Alamoudi, an American citizen living in Falls Church, Va., has been a longtime spokesman for Muslim views in America as founder of the American Muslim Council.
The State Department paid him as a consultant to travel overseas and advocate tolerance and reconciliation among Jews, Christians and Muslims, but was thereafter accused of making statements in support of terrorism.
A person close to Mr. Alamoudi said he believed that Mr. Alamoudi entered into the reported conspiracy because he badly needed money and did not believe that Colonel Qaddafi would carry out the plan to kill Prince Abdullah.
The accusations present a difficult problem for Saudi Arabia, which has suffered a series of major terrorist attacks in the last year, the most recent of which left 22 people dead during a shooting spree by militants in Khobar on the Persian Gulf coast.
Crown Prince Abdullah is said by two officials to be convinced that Colonel Qaddafi was out to kill him and decapitate the Saudi government. But the Saudi leader is also concerned about playing into the hands of American hardliners who might use the case to call for leadership change in Libya, a step that Saudi Arabia would oppose, officials said.
"We are going to really jam Qaddafi over this, but there is no pretext for regime change," the Saudi official said. "What is in our interest is to keep the caged animal in his cage."
Within weeks of the confrontation between Mr. Qaddafi and Crown Prince Abdullah at the Arab summit meeting last March, Mr. Senoussi, one of the Libyan intelligence chiefs, convened the first meeting to plan a campaign against the Saudis, the two participants said.
Present at the meeting was Mr. Alamoudi, who had been summoned from the United States by Mr. Senoussi. Mr. Alamoudi was paired with Colonel Ismael to start making money "drops" in London as part of what was generally described as a "destabilization" campaign, according to persons with access to Mr. Alamoudi's statement.
Mr. Senoussi's instruction remained vague during the initial phase, but when Mr. Alamoudi arrived at Colonel Qaddafi's farm at Sidra in June, the dimensions of the plot escalated greatly, according the people familiar with the statements.
Colonel Qaddafi asked Mr. Senoussi and a Libyan ambassador to leave the room so he could talk privately with Mr. Alamoudi.
"Why do you cooperate with us against the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia?" Colonel Qaddafi said, according to persons with access to Mr. Alamoudi's statement.
"Because I disapprove of what the Crown Prince said to you," Mr. Alamoudi was reported to reply.
After a number of large cash transfers, Mr. Alamoudi traveled to Tripoli in August and stated that, while there, he met again with Colonel Qaddafi.
"How come I haven't seen anything? How come I have not seen heads flying?" Colonel Qaddafi reportedly demanded?
Mr. Alamoudi briefed him on how plans were progressing.
In early August, Mr. Alamoudi was arrested at Heathrow Airport carrying $340,000 in cash that he later said he had received from a Libyan intelligence officer. British officials confiscated the cash and interrogated Mr. Alamoudi, who said he had accepted the money from the World Islamic Call Society, a Libyan-backed charity.
Mr. Alamoudi boarded a flight from London to Washington Dulles airport in late September, he was arrested upon landing.
He was later indicted accused of violating United States sanctions by traveling to Libya and by receiving funds from Libyan officials.
Colonel Ismael has freely spoken about the plot, according to persons familiar with his statement. During one F.B.I. interrogation, he was asked whether he had been tortured or abused in detention. He replied that he had been treated well and that he wanted to apply for political asylum, because he assumed that if he returns to Libya, he will be killed, the people said.
Qadaffi is actually considered unbalanced and somewhat senile right now. Several world leaders have hinted at this. The press out of the middle east won't discuss it. He apparently runs the country...but his son and a small group of politicans make all the moves and they know their position. My guess is that he probably bankrolled the operation...while no one else in Libya knew what was going on. Most Libyans are sick and tired of the embargo, and won't Libya to become part of the money-making machine that they see in Egypt. Tourism and oil could easily put Libya back on the map. They were never much dedicated to Muslim values and its been a bumpy road over the past 20 years with Qadaffi.
Khaddafi is a lying, two-faced snake.
I said it before and say it again, at least some, or maybe ALL of the WMD he surrendered to the U.S. were probably from Iraq.
He's lying again as most of these people lie since their religion foes not require them to treat non-Muslims in the same civil fashion as they are expected to treat other Muslims.
Watch Khaddafi. Watch Libya, Egypt, Syria, and Iran. Theuy are a pack of circling wolves seeking an opening, a school of blood thirsty sharks wating to fall upon the bleeding west.
They should ALL be utterly destroyed.
Dear River Rat,
You write, "Can anyone explain the DOWNSIDE to Lybian success in killing the Prince?"
Yes. The Prince is cooperating with the US and is trying to make some reforms in the country that will bring more freedom and opportunity to the people. He is cracking down on the wahabbi preachers and killing the terrorists. He has helped us in the war.
Prince Abdullah is better than some of the alternatives.
No, he's not a good guy, but he's smart enough to know that if the terrorists are going to pick off Abdullah, it wouldn't be long before they came after him.
I think his cooperation with us was just a method of self defense.
Kind of like choosing between Polio and a Heart Attack, if you ask me...
How many Wahhabi clerics has he hung?
How many militants has he hung?
How much money still finds its way to the terrorists..
The price you pay at the pump today, is primarily due to the Saudi manipulation of the oil supply. How many of the Saudi funded Mosques around the world are still teaching death and destruction...
The Saudis have a modern military --- what have they done with it in the war against terrorism....
The ba$tards have been playing both sides to their benefit...and the chickens have finally come home to roost..
I hope the stink of chicken $hit, sickens them....to death.
Sorry pal...
I see very little to celebrate about ANY Saudi Prince or citizen....
They are no more our friend or ally that the feckless French...it's time to adjust to that fact..
Semper Fi
If this story is true..and thats a big if, I wonder who is next in line for the throne in Saudi?...Not that I really care if arabs offs another arab..just curious..pass the popcorn.
I am not saying I like this guy, but he has to move cautiously. I don't think your tone, (calling me pal), is very conducive to discussion.
They are changing laws that will give women the opportunity to work in many fields. They may start to let them drive. There is a plan to have municipal elections to include women. They have a new law that will purportedly take better control of their charities so money doesn't go to terrorists. We will see if this plan works. The idea is to create middle-class support for the government. The middle classes do want some changes. They are making a lot less money now than a few years ago. If women can drive and work it will help the family. None of these changes will sit well with Al Qaeda who is a lot less progressive than some elements of the monarchy.
When you say you don't mind if Abdulla is "offed", you are not being much different than Al Qaeda.
If AL Qaeda takes power, the US will have to occupy the oil fields and this will be a catastrophy since we already are very extended in Iraq and don't have a draft or strong popular sentiment behind the war effort. I would rather be buying my gas from the Princes than from Al Qaeda.
They have killed many Al Qaeda and are helping a lot with the war effort. These things are done in secret.
Then stop wasting my time....
Semper Fi
You say Semper Fi but my husband is the one bunkered down in Saudi Arabia so I guess I know a thing or two.
This link details what the Saudis have done to fight terrorism. It is the official Saudi view. I think American spokesmen also talk at this press conference.
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2004News/Statements/TransDetail.asp?cIndex=425
My husband is there. He is talking with important people so he has some insights. The Saudis are trying to deal with this challenge. We should all hope that they can democratize and contain the terrorists because failure will be terrible in our blood and treasure.
Senator Kerry's recent remarks that have been critical of Saudi Arabia on terrorism and the administration having not done enough on working with Saudi Arabia.
Is that your position, River Rat?
This is from an official fact sheet of the Saudi Embassy as of June 2004 about what they are doing to stop terrorism:
Actions to Counter Terrorism
• Questioned thousands of suspects
• Arrested more than 600 individuals
• Dismantled a number of Al-Qaeda cells
• Seized large quantities of arms caches
• Extradited suspects from other countries
• Established joint task forces with the United States
Specific Cases:
On May 30, 2004, the Interior Ministry reported that the terrorist attack in Al-Khobar the day before had resulted in the deaths of 22 people, including one American and three Saudis. During the operation to rescue 41 hostages, the leader of the terrorist group was wounded and apprehended. Security forces are searching for the three other terrorists, one of whom was also wounded.
On May 20, 2004, security forces killed four terrorist suspects and injured another in a gunfight in Qasim Province. The security forces came under heavy fire from machineguns after locating five terrorist suspects in a rest house in Khudairah, a village in the area of Buraidah. Two security officers were killed. Weapons and ammunition were confiscated
On May 3, 2004, the Ministry of Interior announced the names of the four terrorists who carried out an attack on May 1 in Yanbu that killed eight people and wounded 20 others. They belonged to one family: two brothers and their two uncles. They were Sameer Sulaiman Alansari, Sami Sulaiman Alansari and Ayman Abdulqader Alansari. All four terrorists were killed by security forces.
On April 23, 2004, the Ministry of Interior identified four of the five terror suspects killed on April 22 as Ahmad Abdulrahman Saqr Alfadhli, Khalid Mobarak Habeeb-Allah Alqurashi, Mostafa Ibrahim Mohammad Mobaraki, and Talal A'nbar Ahmad A'nbari, numbers 23, 11, 25, and 13 on the most wanted list published on December 6, 2003. They were killed following a shootout with security forces in the Al-Safa neighborhood in Jeddah.
On April 18, 2004, the Ministry of Interior issued a statement explaining the developments following the incidents on April 12 and 13, 2004; confirming that security forces had seized two trucks loaded with 4,118 kilograms of explosives ready for detonation, plus a car full of weapons; and adding that various other items and weapons had also been seized at different locations. Eight suspects have been arrested in connection with these events.
On March 15, 2004, security forces killed one of Saudi Arabia’s most wanted terror suspects: Khalid Ali Ali-Haj, who was on the December 6 list of wanted terrorist suspects. Ali-Haj was a Yemeni national who trained at Al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan where he worked closely with Osama bin Laden. Security forces searched his car and found six hand grenades, two Kalashnikov assault rifles, ten Kalashnikov ammunition magazines, three 9-mm pistols and the equivalent of about $137,000 in cash.
On February 22, 2004, the Ministry of Interior confirmed the death of A'amir Mohsin Moreef Al Zaidan Alshihri, who was on the December 6 list of wanted terrorist suspects. He died some time after being wounded during a clash with police in Riyadh on November 6, 2003. The body was recently recovered from where it was buried, just outside the city, and DNA tests proved that it was Alshihri.
On January 30, 2004, Saudi Arabia honored six security men and one civilian who were killed during a counter-terrorism operation. Since May of last year, 16 members of Saudi security forces have been killed and 31 injured in counter-terrorism operations.
On January 30, 2004, the Ministry of Interior announced that security forces had stormed a rest house in Al-Siliye district in the east of the city of Riyadh, arrested seven suspects and seized a number of items including a car rigged with explosives, five rocket-propelled grenade launchers, seven machine guns, 11 pistols, five hand grenades, 21 detonators, military uniforms, and ammunition.
On January 12, 2004, the Ministry of Interior announced that, over the past six months, large quantities of ammunition and weapons have been seized. The total weight of confiscated explosives is 23,893 kilograms. In addition, 301 rocket-propelled grenades together with launchers, 431 homemade grenades, 304 explosive belts (ready for use by suicide bombers), 674 detonators, 1,020 small arms and 352,398 rounds of ammunition were confiscated. The Ministry of Interior also called on everyone in Saudi Arabia to cooperate in fighting terrorism and extremism.
On December 30, 2003, Mansoor Mohammad Ahmad Faqeeh, whose name had been published in a December 6 list of 26 wanted terrorist suspects, surrendered to security authorities.
On December 8, 2003, the Ministry of Interior announced that Ibrahim Mohammad Abdullah Alrayis, whose name was on the December 6 list, had been killed by security forces. The Ministry statement praised citizens’ cooperation with the security forces, who are pursuing those wanted and those who are trying to undermine the country’s security and safety.
On December 6, 2003, the Ministry of Interior published the names and photos of 26 suspects wanted by security forces in connection with the terrorist incidents that have taken place in the Kingdom in the past few months, urging them to surrender to the authorities. The Ministry called on all citizens and residents to report information they may have about any of the wanted suspects. Immediate financial rewards of up to $1.9 million are being offered for information leading to the arrest of any wanted suspect, or any other terrorist elements and cells.
On November 26, 2003, a suspected terrorist was arrested. The suspect’s hiding place was linked to the terrorist cell involved in the November 9 car bombing at the Al-Muhaya residential complex in Riyadh. Search of the hiding place revealed large quantities of arms and documents. Items discovered by security forces include one SAM-7 surface-to-air missile, five rocket-propelled grenade launchers, 384 kilogram of the powerful explosive RDX, 89 detonators, 20 hand grenades, eight AK-47 assault rifles, 41 AK-47 magazines, and 16,800 rounds of ammunition. Also recovered were four wireless communication devices, three computers, computer disks and CDs, and SR 94,395 in cash, as well as numerous identity cards and leaflets calling for the perpetration of acts of terror.
On November 25, 2003, a car bomb plot was foiled in Riyadh. The encounter with security forces led to the deaths of two wanted terrorist suspects: Abdulmohsin Abdulaziz Alshabanat, who was killed in the exchange of fire, and Mosaed Mohammad Dheedan Alsobaiee, who committed suicide by detonating the hand grenade he was carrying. The vehicle that was seized was loaded with explosives and camouflaged as a military vehicle.
On November 20, 2003, Abdullah bin Atiyyah bin Hudeid Al-Salami surrendered to security authorities. He was wanted for suspected terrorist activities.
On November 6, 2003, security forces investigating a suspected terrorist cell in the Al-Suwaidi district of the city of Riyadh came under fire from the suspects, who attempted to flee while attacking security forces with machine guns and bombs. In the exchange of fire, one terrorist was killed and eight of the security officers suffered minor injuries. On the same day, in the Al-Shara'ei district of the city of Makkah, two terrorist suspects, who were surrounded by security forces, used home-made bombs to blow themselves up. Their suicide followed a firefight during which they refused to surrender when requested by the security officers.
On November 3, 2003, Saudi police arrested six suspected Al-Qaeda militants after a shootout in the holy city of Makkah. The raid on an apartment triggered a shootout that left two suspected terrorists dead, and one security officer wounded.
On October 20, 2003, security forces raided several terrorist cells in various parts of the country, including the city of Riyadh, the Al-Majma’a District in Riyadh Province, Makkah Province, the Jeddah District of Makkah Province, and Qasim Province. Security forces confiscated items including C4 plastic explosives, home-made bombs, gas masks, and large quantities of assault rifles and ammunition.
On October 8, 2003, security forces raided a farm in the northern Muleda area of Qasim Province and were able to arrest a suspect. Three other suspects fled the scene. Two security officers suffered injuries.
On October 5, 2003, security forces arrested three suspects during a raid in the desert to the east of Riyadh.
On September 23, 2003, security forces surrounded a group of suspected terrorists in an apartment in the city of Jizan. During a gun battle, one security officer was killed and four officers injured. Two suspects were arrested and one killed. The suspects were armed with machine guns and pistols and a large quantity of ammunition.
On July 28, 2003, security forces killed six terrorist suspects and injured one in a gunfight at a farm in Qasim Province, 220 miles north of the capital, Riyadh. Two security officers were killed and eight suffered minor injuries. Four people who harbored the suspects were arrested.
On July 25, 2003, three men were arrested at a checkpoint in Makkah for possessing printed material that included a “religious edict” in support of terrorist acts against Western targets.
On July 21, 2003, the Minister of Interior announced that Saudi authorities had defused terrorist operations which were about to be carried out against vital installations and arrested 16 members of a number of terrorist cells after searching their hideouts in farms and houses in Riyadh Province, Qasim Province and the Eastern Province. In addition, underground storage facilities were found at these farms and homes containing bags, weighing over 20 tons, filled with chemicals used in the making of explosives.
On July 3, 2003, Turki Nasser Mishaal Aldandany, a top Al-Qaeda operative and one of the masterminds of the May 12 bombings, was killed along with three other suspects in a gun battle with security forces that had them surrounded.
On June 26, 2003, Ali Abdulrahman Said Alfagsi Al-Ghamdi, a.k.a. Abu Bakr Al-Azdi, surrendered to Saudi authorities. Al-Ghamdi, considered one of the top Al-Qaeda operatives in Saudi Arabia, is suspected of being one of the masterminds of the May 12 bombings in Riyadh.
On June 14, 2003, security forces raided a terrorist cell in the Alattas building in the Khalidiya neighborhood of Makkah. Two Saudi police officers and five suspects were killed in a shootout. Twelve suspects were arrested, and a number of booby-trapped Qur’ans and 72 home-made bombs, in addition to weapons, ammunition, and masks were confiscated.
On May 31, 2003, Yousif Salih Fahad Al-Ayeeri, a.k.a. Swift Sword, a major Al-Qaeda operational planner and fundraiser, was killed while fleeing from a security patrol.
On May 27-28, 2003, eleven suspects were taken into custody in the city of Madinah. Weapons, false identity cards and bomb-making materials were confiscated. In addition, Saudi national Abdulmonim Ali Mahfouz Al-Ghamdi was arrested, following a car chase. Three non-Saudi women without identity cards, who were in the car he was driving, were detained.
In May 2003, three clerics, Ali Fahd Al-Khudair, Ahmed Hamoud Mufreh Al-Khaledi and Nasir Ahmed Al-Fuhaid, were arrested after calling for support of the terrorists who carried out the Riyadh attacks. In November 2003, Ali Fahd Al-Khudair recanted his religions opinions on Saudi TV. Shortly after, a second cleric, Nasir Ahmed Al-Fuhaid, recanted and withdrew his religious opinions describing them as a “grave mistake”. On December 16, 2003, Ahmed Hamoud Mufreh Al-Khaledi became the third cleric to recant on national television.
International Cooperation
On April 29, 2004, the Office of the Coordinator for Counter-terrorism of the U.S. Department of State released its 2003 ‘Patterns of Global Terrorism’ report. The report praises the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia for its “unprecedented” efforts to fight terrorism both inside its borders and abroad. J. Cofer Black, Coordinator for Counter-terrorism states in his introductory remarks: “I would cite Saudi Arabia as an excellent example of a nation increasingly focusing its political will to fight terrorism. Saudi Arabia has launched an aggressive, comprehensive, and unprecedented campaign to hunt down terrorists, uncover their plots, and cut off their sources of funding.”
On January 22, 2004, Crown Prince Abdullah’s Foreign Affairs Advisor Adel Al-Jubeir and Secretary of the Treasury John Snow held a joint press conference in Washington, DC to announce that Saudi Arabia and the United States had asked the UN Sanctions Committee to designate four branch offices of the Al-Haramain Foundation as financial supporters of terrorism. The branches are located in Kenya, Tanzania, Pakistan and Indonesia and subject to the laws and regulations of those countries.
Saudi Arabia and the United States established a second joint task force in August 2003, this one aimed at combating the financing of terror. The task force, which was initiated by Crown Prince Abdullah, is further indication of the Kingdom’s commitment to the war on terrorism and its close cooperation with the United States in eradicating terrorists and their supporters.
In May 2003, a Saudi-U.S. task force was organized from across law enforcement and intelligence agencies to work side by side to share “real time” intelligence and conduct joint operations in the fight against terrorism. The U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, Robert Jordan, described the cooperation of Saudi investigators with the U.S. law enforcement representatives as “superb”.
Saudi Arabia has provided extensive intelligence and military cooperation in the assault on Al-Qaeda. Public disclosures to date have revealed major Saudi contributions to the breakup of a number of Al-Qaeda cells, the arrests of key Al-Qaeda commanders, and the capture of numerous Al-Qaeda members.
Saudi Arabia is engaging other countries to locate and extradite Al-Qaeda operatives who may be hiding in those countries.
Actions Taken in the Financial Area
On February 27, 2004, the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd bin Abdulaziz issued a royal order approving the creation of the Saudi National Commission for Relief and Charity Work Abroad, which, in order to eliminate any misdeed that might undermine Saudi charitable operations, is charged exclusively with responsibility for all donations and contributions outside the Kingdom.
On January 29, 2004, one week after Saudi Arabia and the United States requested the designation of four branch offices of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, the United Nations Security Council announced that Al-Haramain’s offices in Indonesia, Pakistan, Kenya and Tanzania had been added to its consolidated list of terrorists tied to Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. Now that these offices are under UN sanctions, member states are obligated to take legal action against them.
On December 22, 2003, Saudi Arabia and the United States took steps to designate two organizations as financiers of terrorism under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1267 (1999). These organizations are the Bosnia-based Vazir and the Liechtenstein-based Hochburg AG. Mr. Safet Durguti, a representative of the Vazir organization, has also been designated under the relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions as a terrorist financier. This was the third joint action taken against terrorist financing by the United States Treasury Department and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
In August 2003, the Council of Ministers approved new laws that include harsh penalties for the crimes of money laundering and terror financing.
In May 2003, Saudi Arabia asked the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation and all Saudi charities to suspend activities outside Saudi Arabia until mechanisms are in place to adequately monitor and control funds so they cannot be misdirected for illegal purposes.
Also in May 2003, SAMA instructed all banks and financial institutions in the Kingdom to stop all financial transfers by Saudi charities to any accounts outside the Kingdom.
In February 2003, the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency (SAMA) began to implement a major technical program to train judges and investigators on legal matters involving terrorism financing and money-laundering methods, international requirements for financial secrecy, and methods followed by criminals to exchange information.
In March 2002, the U.S. Treasury Department and Saudi Arabia blocked the accounts of the Somalia and Bosnia branches of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation. While the Saudi headquarters for this private charity is dedicated to helping those in need, it was determined that the Somalia and Bosnia branches supported terrorist activities and terrorist organizations such as Al-Qaeda and AIAI (al-Itihaad al-Islamiya).
Saudi Arabia implemented the 40 Financial Action Task Force (FATF) recommendations on the prevention of money laundering and the eight special recommendations on terrorist financing.
Saudi Arabia has established a High Commission for oversight of all charities, contributions and donations.
A Financial Intelligence Unit was established to monitor financial transactions to ensure that funds do not reach evildoers.
The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the United States took steps to freeze the assets of a close bin Laden aide, Wa’el Hamza Julaidan.
Saudi Arabia has investigated numerous bank accounts suspected of having links to terrorism and has frozen more than 40 such accounts.
Seems to be trouble brewing in Lallahland! WOOOO HOOOO!
pepsiconice you are probably right. Qaddafi is likely suffering from bipolar (maniac-depressive) disorder and his son is running the day-to-day business. The Islamists have been a threat in Libya for many years (that is why he accepted the advice from his son to get rid of the WMD and get support from us to fight the islamists) Qaddafi have found proofs that the rulers of Saudi have been backing the wahhabi-fundamentalists. (no surprise here) As Abdullah and Qaddafi have traded insults for many years, Qaddafi decided that it now is time to get rid of the person that he regards as the big planner for the Wahhabis and is planning to kill him. Qaddafi is doing this on his own, his son is as surprised as any of us.
Now, the big question is if Qaddafi will share his intelligence on Saudi?
Okay, as a last resort, blame it on Bush.
This article was published at www.memri.org MEMRI publishes articles from the Arab media in English. This way, we can see them "talking trash" about us. Still, MEMRI also shows when the Arabs are willing to speak the truth totheir own people. Prince Bandar has done this, and I hope he will be safe. They were very brave words.He called Al Qaeda "deviants" and called for a total war on them. He said ther problem is not America or the Jews.
I was extremely impressed by the strong attack of Prince Bandar, the ambassador to the US from Saudi Arabia, against the terrorists. He published these words in a Saudi Government newspaper Al Watan, so it is the official line.
Saudi Ambassador to Washington: 'We Must, as a State and as a People, Recognize the Truth about These Criminals… We Must All Obey Allah's Directive and Kill Those Who Spread Corruption in the Land'
Following the recent terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia, culminating in the attacks on May 29, 2004, Saudi Ambassador to the U.S. Prince Bandar Abu Sultan bin Abd Al-'Aziz published an article titled "We Will Lose Our War Against Terror Unless…" in the Saudi government daily Al-Watan. The following are excerpts from his article: [1]
'I Believe that the [Saudi] State and Citizens Have Not Yet Reached the Stage of General Mobilization for War'
" His Excellency Crown Prince [Abdallah] has declared war on terror and on the terrorists, and he is right in doing so. Likewise, many righteous senior officials in his government have reiterated His Excellency the Crown Prince's declaration. With all due modesty, and out of my trepidation for my beloved land, I express my opinion on this sensitive subject from thousands of kilometers away, from America…
"For 17 years, I have had the honor of serving my religion, my homeland, and my king, in the brave Saudi armed forces. Although I left military service 20 years ago, my memory still serves me in [expressing] an opinion and in engaging in military analysis, keeping in mind that I have left behind my military expertise and daily dealings with warfare.
"War, ultimately, means tragedy, pain, and sacrifice. The harder, faster, more determinedly, and more aggressively a war is fought, the fewer the casualties. But basically this depends, except for the fact that success is in the hands of Allah, on whether there is general mobilization for war. I personally think that both the [Saudi] state and citizens have not yet reached that important, basic, and necessary stage for [them to be able] to win the war. This means general mobilization for war in thought and in deed, as individuals and as a whole, in the media and in the culture – a mobilization of all state institutions and the private sector towards this goal, and viewing everything in life based [on the premise that] we are at war…"
'War Means War, Not Boy Scout Camp'
"Victory in this war will come first and ultimately through trust in Allah. After that, it will be a result of conducting this war against those who are deviating [from the religion] – the khawarij and the traitors to their faith, their families, and their land – [the conducting] of a war in the full sense of the word. [2]
"War means war. It does not mean Boy Scout camp. It is a war that does not mean delicacy, but brutality. This is war that cannot be conducted based on calling those who deviate [from the religion] good people who were careless, but based on [calling them] terrorists and aggressors with whom there can be no compromise.
"Either we, as a state and as a people, are believers, and we are right – and therefore fighting and killing the [terrorists] is a commandment aimed at defending our monotheistic religion and our dear people – or they, Heaven forfend, are the believers, and we, as a state and as a people, are the mistaken ones, and they have the right to kill us – women, children, elderly, and our guests.
"If we [decide upon one] of the options, the picture will become clearer, and we will be divided into two parts: The first [part includes those] who are with us, as a Muslim state ruling according to the law of Allah, and as a people believing in the law of Allah and in the way [Sunnah] of His Prophet. The second [part includes] those who deviate from the religion."
'The Clerics Must Call for the Ruler to Declare Jihad Against the Deviants'
"We, as a state and as a people, must insist that all choose between the truth, in which we believe, and the lie, which we think that those who deviate [from the religion] are advocating. In my opinion, with all due modesty and respect, our honorable clerics must call for the ruler to declare Jihad against these deviants, and give him [i.e. the ruler] complete support in this matter, and be determined about it, since whoever keeps silent [and refrains from speaking about] the truth is a mute Satan.
"Personally, I think this crisis can be [either] easy or difficult. If we deal with the crisis like the founding and believing king Abd Al-'Aziz did at the Battle of Al-Sabla, against those who advocated the same ideology as these deviants, and, with Allah's help, we vanquish them, [then the crisis will be] easy. [3] [But] if we deal [with the crisis] hesitantly, in hope that [the terrorists] are Muslim youths who have been misled, and that the solution [to the crisis] is that we call upon them to follow the path of righteousness, in hope that they will come to their senses – then we will lose this war, and this means that we will lose everything that this state and this people have accomplished over the past 600 years, and that we will enter a dark world whose end only Allah knows."
'The Problem is the Deviants' Victory Over Us [Today], as a State and as a People, Through Excess, Extremism, and Killing'
"I personally do not think that these deviants are any stronger than [the deviants] who fought against the [Saudi] state at the Battle of Al-Sabla. Likewise, I am certain that the state today, Allah be praised, is much stronger than the state was in the period of the founding believing king, the late Abd Al'Aziz. Therefore, the outcome of this conflict [between the state and the terrorists] relies on the following question: Do we, as a state and as a people, think that our war is just, or not?
"If the answer is yes, then we, as a state and as a people, will triumph, with Allah's help – provided we declare a general mobilization in order to stand up to this war, because the problem is the deviants' victory over us [today], as a state and as a people, through excess, extremism, killing, factionalism between the [Islamic] schools of thought, declaring people to be apostate [takfir] and aggression against what Allah has sanctified: the soul, honor, and property."
'Enough Blaming Others When the Reason Lies Within Our Own Ranks'
"We have a religious and national obligation not to be tempted into following those who have misled us, [trying] to persuade us that the flaw lies with us, as a state and as a people, and that this terrorist phenomenon is the result of the cultural situation in which we are living, with its advantages and disadvantages. This is a word of truth that aims at lying.
"[Today's] deviants did not appear for the first time in our era. They appeared already during the era of the [four] Righteous Caliphs. The deviants did not appear because [our] nation has connections with America or with Christians and Jews, or because of Israel's aggression against the Palestinian brethren, or because of events in Fallujah or Chechnya. They appeared for the first time during the era of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah.
"Similarly, [those who were] behind the Fitna [civil war following] the murder [of the Third Caliph] 'Uthman ibn 'Affan were neither Christians nor Jews. They were the sons of the Companions of the Prophet. [4]
"Enough blaming others when the reason lies within our own ranks! Enough demagoguery at this critical stage in our history! We must all, as a state and as a people, recognize the truth about these criminals. These criminals have disseminated corruption in the land, and it is incumbent upon us – the rulers, the clerics, and the citizens – to keep the word of Allah: 'The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land is only this, that they should be murdered,' etc. [Koran 5:33]. Period!"
'We Must All Obey the Honored Directive of Allah, and Kill Those Who Spread Corruption in the Land'
"We must not discuss or hesitate in this matter. We must all obey the honored directive of Allah, and kill those who spread corruption in the land. And in my opinion, anything else is against the word of the Lord of the Worlds.
"May Allah protect our religion, our country, and our king. If we do not carry out this directive of our Lord, and if we do not declare a general mobilization – we will lose this war on terrorism."
[1] Al-Watan (Saudi Arabia), June 1, 2004.
[2] The Khawarij were a group that left the camp of the Fourth Caliph Ali Ibn Abi Taleib to create the first religious opposition group in Islam.
[3] At the Battle of Al-Sabla, March 29, 1929, King Abd Al-Aziz fought the military arm of the Wahhabis, led by Sultan ibn Bajad, which opposed the agreement that the Saudi state had signed with a U.S. company because it objected to bringing foreigners into Saudi Arabia. See http://www.aljazeera.net/in-depth/shia_saudia/2003/5/5-31-7.htm.
[4] For more about the comparison of today's Islamists with the murderers of Caliph Uthman ibn 'Affan, see the opinion expressed by Sudanese author and literary scholar Al-Tayyib Salih, MEMRI Special Dispatch No. 704, April 30, 2004, 'Ever Since the Murder of 'Uthman [The Third Caliph]' - Arab Literary Scholar on the Evil Spirit of Murder and Violence in Early Islam Re-Appearing Today.'
This is the link to the Saudi Embassy
http://www.saudiembassy.net/Index.asp
They post a lot of information there, from the official Saudi perspective, about terrorism and anticipated social changes in their country.
Of course, what people say and what they do is not always the same. Still, the official pronouncements are very strong. There are links at the top and a little lower, so don't miss anything your are interested in.
Dear McGavin999,
You write in response to my remarks about Prince Abdullah, "Yeah, he is such a good guy. He is our friend now and we can trust him. /Sarcasm
No, he's not a good guy, but he's smart enough to know that if the terrorists are going to pick off Abdullah, it wouldn't be long before they came after him.
I think his cooperation with us was just a method of self defense."
I want to point out that the Prince is Abdullah. Prince Abdullah is the ruler. The King is sick so this brother Prince Abdullah is ruling.
In order to counter Wahabbi interpretation of the Koran and to foster greater understanding of Islam, the Saudis have posted a translation of the Koran and interpretation of what it means.
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2004News/News/IslDetail.asp?cIndex=3614
Here is a big change coming in Saudi Arabia: women are going to get to vote. Hopefully this will really happen.
I think that this will dampen the terrorists.
Saudi women get the vote
Brian Whitaker
Wednesday March 10, 2004
The Guardian
Saudi Arabia, one of the world's most male-dominated countries, is preparing to break with tradition and risk the wrath of religious conservatives by allowing women to take part in its first elections.
Plans for municipal elections, a key step towards modernisation and democracy, were announced in October, but the government gave no public indication of whether women would be included as voters or as candidates.
Saudi officials said privately at the time that they wanted to introduce women's suffrage but hoped to slip it through quietly at a later date to avoid a conservative backlash.
Public confirmation came yesterday, in a press release from the Saudi embassy in London. A paragraph describing the election plans said: "It is believed both men and women will be given the opportunity to vote."
Saleh al-Malik, a member of the Shura Council, the kingdom's non-elected parliament, confirmed that women would be allowed to take part, though the government is taking a cautious approach.
He said anyone aged over 21 would be entitled to vote.
Although the law will not state explicitly that women can vote, "there will be no clause saying that women are not eligible to vote or be elected", he said.
The elections are expected to be held in late October.
Voters in 180 municipalities will be asked to choose between four and 16 councillors, depending on population size.
The electoral law is not expected to be approved until August, giving opponents little time to organise a rearguard action.
Women in Saudi Arabia must follow a strict dress code. They are not allowed to drive and need permission from a male relative to travel.
Pressure for change has built up as increasing numbers of Saudi women take up employment. About 10% of private businesses are now believed to be run by women - a situation that would have been unimaginable a generation ago.
A group of female Saudi journalists who visited Britain recently described how they were segregated from their male colleagues in their newspaper offices. Some had felt obliged to write articles under an assumed - male - name.
Women in the country have also experienced problems with the emergency services. Some have died because relatives prevented them being taken to hospital by a male ambulance crew.
In an unprecedented move last year, 300 Saudi women signed a petition calling on the country's de facto ruler, Crown Prince Abdullah, to recognise their legal and civil rights.
Rejecting women's suffrage would leave Saudi Arabia exposed to international criticism. Elsewhere in the Arab world, women vote in almost all the countries that hold elections.
Women do not vote in Kuwait. Although the emir wanted them to vote and stand as candidates, conservative elements in parliament blocked the move. Among the arguments used against women's participation is that menstruation could cloud their political judgment.
How ignorant, regressive, and chauvinist can you get? Everyone knows menstruation has nothing to do with clouding women's political judgment...it's fashion magazines and gyno-television that does it!
I remember that argument being made about a woman president when I was a teenager.
Here is a good article from today's Washington Post that I think presents a very balanced view.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35988-2004Jun11.html
The author makes many of the points that Prince Bandar, the Saudi ambassador to the US makes. The terrorists need to be ruthlessly hunted down and not treated as wayward kids. In the past, the regime has totally crushed radical religious movements. This article examines many of the anti-terrorist actions of the government and the reforms that they hope will get the support of the middle class without enraging the radicals. It is a real razor's edge.
A lot is being staked on the role of women to stabilize the society.
Many terrorists have been dressed as women i.e. totally covered by the chador style abaya. I think that such clothing will be banned soon, when do you think that will happen?
When will we see equality in Saudi, with women representatives like these 32:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=46787&d=14&m=6&y=2004
Madinah Forum on Women Calls for Respecting Tradition
Abdul Wahab Bashir, Arab News
JEDDAH, 14 June 2004 ? The third National Dialogue Forum, which focuses on women?s issues, opened on Saturday with a call to respect the equality between the sexes granted by Islam.
Opening the forum in Madinah, Chairman of the Two Holy Mosques Affairs Saleh Al-Hosayn said civic debate must be based on Islamic teachings and embrace plurality.
?Islam guarantees equality and does not differentiate between people based on race, sex or color,? he said. ?It is a natural state that is achieved through ensuring people enjoy the same legal rights, dignity and obligations,? said the sheikh, who chairs the King Abdul Aziz Center for National Dialogue which sponsors the conference.
But he warned women working outside the home would not find enough time to raise their children and demanded a balance between women?s rights and their obligations.
The forum is the third of its kind since the center was established in August 2003 at the initiative of Crown Prince Abdullah. The center means to offer a platform for dialogue between all sides of the spectrum of opinion.
The second forum in January this year debated issues ranging from extremism, nepotism and violence to politics and economics.
The Madinah forum was widely expected to take up hot issues such as segregation and women driving.
A group of 32 prominent women from Madinah listed seven points they said the conference must tackle. They include protecting religious teachings guaranteeing segregation of the sexes, upholding the ban on women driving, ensuring proper implementation of religious rules on women?s rights and obligations, upholding the system of fatwa (religious edicts) currently being applied in the country and giving priority to issues relating to the family and marriage over other issues ?that do not constitute a priority.?
Yet on the first day, one male participant challenged the segregation of the forum, where separate rooms for men and women are linked by closed-circuit TV.
Abdullah Al-Sadran, who works for Coca-Cola, said he saw no justification for separating men and women at a public national forum and asked if the ?cultured elite? of society could really be incapable of respecting the boundaries in a mixed gathering.
A senior member of the Council of Ulema, Abdullah Al-Mutlaq, demanded to know whether Al-Sadran had asked the women at the gathering, who Al-Mutlaq believed would be more comfortable in a room of their own.
When the women?s turn came, Dr. Saliha Al-Hulais, of Umm Al-Qura University, promptly dismissed calls for equality between men and women.
Justice did not necessarily mean full equality, she argued.
However, other women participants said women faced genuine problems and these should be addressed. ?How come we see all these injustices being committed against women if women are facing no real problems?? asked Dr. Hanan Al-Ahmadi, from the Institute of Public Administration in Riyadh.
In an attempt to counter the emphasis some participants placed on conspiracy theories, Dr. Marqouk Bin Tunbak, a professor of literature at King Saudi University, said people should focus on the real problems facing society instead of putting the blame on others.
Both male and female participants called for a review of the taboo shrouding local customs governing women?s lives. However, defenders said it was such customs that provided a sense of identity to people in the Kingdom.
Calls to end the need for a mahram or male guardian in almost every aspect of women?s lives and allow women to drive elicited particularly lively debate.
?If men find it impossible to reach their destination without a car, the situation facing women is even more difficult,? said Sheikh Mosa Bukhamsain, an Islamic scholar.
King Abdul Aziz Center Vice Chairman Dr. Rashid Al-Rajeh said the forum had no magic wand to solve every problem facing the country and urged a gradual approach to addressing these issues.
Too damn bad the plot didn't succeed.
"In order to counter Wahabbi interpretation of the Koran...""the Saudis have posted a translation of the Koran"
I don't understand......the Saudis are wahhabi. Why would they want to "counter interpretation"?
Dear Nuconvert,
By way of answering, let me post an article from the official media about a series of public debates that are occuring in Saudi Arabia. This is organized by the government and reported in the official media. My impression is that the government sees that this ideology is dangerous to the regime and to the economy. Periodically in their history, the princes do go after the radical religious types when they threaten to destabilize the government.
The Saudis are having these national debates to get people to differentiate between Isam and wht they are calling "traditions and customs." The government wants to modernize the interpretation of Islam so it can modernize society. This is really interesting. They are citing scripture to show that women should have more rights. The is pressure to give women legal personhood.
Dialogue Forum Ends Amid Heated Debate
Maha Akeel, Arab News
JEDDAH, 15 June 2004 — The Third National Dialogue Forum wrapped up three days of session yesterday in Madinah amid heated arguments about previously taboo topics.
Some 70 participants, including 35 women, from all parts of the Kingdom took part in the discussion on women’s issues.
While the forum concluded, according to the Saudi Press Agency, with participants stressing “the importance of granting women their rights guaranteed by Islam,” and recognizing “the ability of women to participate, beside men, in the building of society and in safeguarding the family unit,” some of the forum’s sessions were tumultuous.
On Sunday participants also called for more subjects for women to study. One delegate, writer Yahya Al-Amir, brandished a copy of a textbook on Islamic culture for second-year secondary school students saying the text spoke of women as weak creatures who need a guardian to lead them to the right path, because if allowed to act without guidance they may end up being corrupted and corrupting others. He asked [how?] the curriculum could allow children to view women as a potential source for corruption.
In yesterday’s session on women and employment, Dr. Muhammad Al-Arifi, who earlier nearly brought about the collapse of the forum, again fell foul of another participant, this time Dr. Walid Fitaihi.
Fitaihi, a physician and writer, presented a paper titled “Women Are the Partners of Men” — a saying by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) — which was met with applause from the women.
Al-Arifi objected to Fitaihi’s suggestions that women should be allowed to work as nurses, air hostesses and in other jobs and said Fitaihi was basing his arguments on the opinions of scholars from “outside the region.”
Fitaihi replied many prominent and respected Muslim scholars throughout the centuries had come from outside this region, and all of them based their opinions on the Qur’an and Sunnah.
The discussions were lively as issues such as opening more college departments for women and broadening women’s participation in the work force were raised.
Delegates were concerned with improving the quality and standard of women’s education and for women to hold higher administrative positions and participate in the decision-making process.
In the sessions on women’s employment, delegates addressed some of the obstacles facing women in entering the work force and establishing a business such as the need for a male guardian or agent.
Nadia Al-Hazaa, an engineer at Saudi Aramco, said it was a denial of women’s full rights to offer them an identity card but require the signature of a man for the application and limit its use.
Reactions to the forum have been mixed. Many felt that it was a small step in the right direction but recommendations must be followed by concrete action.
Others were disheartened by some comments and the tone of the discussions. “I was discouraged that some were trying to lobby for restricting women,” said Dr. Amira Kashgary, a university professor.
She said traditions and customs have become more important than religion. “We should get rid of this idea that women are to be banned from participating in society. Women are energetic, capable and qualified,” she asserted.
Dr. Suhaila Hammad, a member of the National Human Rights Association, criticized the lack of balance in the representation as the participants seemed to have been selected with a slant toward the conservative, even though she believes moderates are in the majority in the Kingdom at large.
“The most important thing is to correct the misconceptions about women’s rights in Islam, which are confused with traditions and customs,” she said.
The degrading opinion of women, the misinterpretation of Qur’an verses and Hadiths and the domination of tradition is what is preventing women from the rights Islam gave her. She finds that the most important changes should be in the curriculum, the judicial system and in the labor laws.
She also felt a number of practical issues should have been given greater prominence. “We should abolish this legal guardian thing in legal matters and give women their independence whether in pursuing their rights or in being punished for breaking the law,” she said.
Many presentations at the forum were good, she said, but some were vague and impractical. For example, to insist on preventing women from driving and at the same time warn them not to ride with strangers, as one presenter did, was to leave women with no options, especially when there is no dependable public transport.
But Hammad also criticized Fawziah Abu Khalid’s paper on the interaction between customs and traditions in forming awareness. “She did not clarify what those traditions and customs that are contradictory to Islam are,” she said. “We should be more transparent and bolder in presenting our issues.”
You wrote, "Many terrorists have been dressed as women i.e. totally covered by the chador style abaya. I think that such clothing will be banned soon, when do you think that will happen?"
I don't think clothes will change first. You are right about the terrorists dressing as women. Terrorists dressed as women helped the terrorist captured during the Yanbu massacre escape from a military hospital. That was pretty stupid to allow anyone near him. I think that Al Qaeda sometimes pays the security to look the other way.
The murderers of the foreigners are usually getting away.
Dear Adam Smith,
You wrote, "When will we see equality in Saudi, with women representatives like these 32:"
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=46787&d=14&m=6&y=2004
This is the same article I previously posted. Read between the lines a bit. My take on this is that the regime wants women to be able to drive and have greater opportunities to work. The fact that this is being said is really a good sign. Forget for a minute that women have limited work opportunities. Young men have limited opportunities because they don't have the work ethic and are busy taking care of wife and children. They need to get these young men into the workforce. If women can drive it will free up the men to work more. Now, the foreign workers have a lot of the good jobs. This creates dissatisfaction; a breeding ground for Al Qaeda. The idea that women with children can work if they can still take care of the kids is somewhat acknowledged. Arab girls are pretty educated. They have nothing to do but their homework. I see the Arab girls at the local college. They are all studying together and learning chemistry and math.
It's the boys who are the losers and who join Al Qaeda. Forget the girls working for a minute. The boys don't work in Saudi Arabia. Not too much, anyway.
AQ seems to have people in all of the middle eastern intelligence networks.
Thank you.
While I believe that some of the family would like to modernize and moderate their religion, (or at least the part seen by the outside world), I feel pretty sure there are many who aren't ready for that. I believe that's a factor in why they're having so much trouble controlling their current terrorist problems. (some of the family hasn't accepted reality yet) Any moves toward a more "western' Saudi in this current atmosphere, such as giving women more rights and freedom, will increase the attacks against them. They don't seem prepared to handle that yet. They need to be moving quickly, but they're moving at the typical slow, Mideast pace.
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