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Agenda of Islam - A War Between Civilizations
tzemach ^ | Professor Moshe Sharon

Posted on 06/14/2004 4:16:29 AM PDT by dennisw

Agenda of Islam - A War Between Civilizations

Professor Moshe Sharon -- reprinted by permission     Comments


Home | articles | Agenda of Islam - A War Between Civilizations

There Is No Fundamental Islam

"Fundamentalism" is a word that came from the heart of the Christian religion. It means faith that goes by the word of the Bible. Fundamental Christianity, or going with the Bible, does not mean going around and killing people. There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam full stop. The question is how the Koran is interpreted.

All of a sudden we see that the greatest interpreters of Islam are politicians in the western world. They know better than all the speakers in the mosques, all those who deliver terrible sermons against anything that is either Christian or Jewish. These western politicians know that there is good Islam and bad Islam. They know even how to differentiate between the two, except that none of them know how to read a word of Arabic.

The Language of Islam

You see, so much is covered by politically correct language that, in fact, the truth has been lost. For example, when we speak about Islam in the West, we try to use our own language and terminology. We speak about Islam in terms of democracy and fundamentalism, in terms of parliamentarism and all kinds of terms, which we take from our own dictionary. One of my professors and one of the greatest orientalists in the world says that doing this is like a cricket reporter describing a cricket game in baseball terms. We cannot use for one culture or civilization the language of another. For Islam, you've got to use the language of Islam.

Driving Principles of Islam

Let me explain the principles that are driving the religion of Islam. Of course, every Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is only one God.

But it's not enough to say that there is only one God. A Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. These are the fundamentals of the religion that without them, one cannot be a Moslem.

But beyond that, Islam is a civilization. It is a religion that gave first and foremost a wide and unique legal system that engulfs the individual, society and nations with rules of behaviour. If you are Moslem, you have to behave according to the rules of Islam which are set down in the Koran and which are very different than the teachings of the Bible.

The Bible

Let me explain the difference.

The Bible is the creation of the spirit of a nation over a very, very long period, if we talk from the point of view of the scholar, and let me remain scholarly. But there is one thing that is important in the Bible. It leads to salvation. It leads to salvation in two ways.

In Judaism, it leads to national salvation — not just a nation that wants to have a state, but a nation that wants to serve God. That's the idea behind the Hebrew text of the Bible.

The New Testament that took the Hebrew Bible moves us toward personal salvation. So we have got these two kinds of salvation, which, from time to time, meet each other.

But the key word is salvation. Personal salvation means that each individual is looked after by God, Himself, who leads a person through His word to salvation. This is the idea in the Bible, whether we are talking about the Old or the New Testament. All of the laws in the Bible, even to the minutest ones, are, in fact directed toward this fact of salvation.

Secondly, there is another point in the Bible, which is highly important. This is the idea that man was created in the image of God. Therefore, you don't just walk around and obliterate the image of God. Many people, of course, used Biblical rules and turned them upside down. History has seen a lot of massacres in the name of God and in the name of Jesus. But as religions, both Judaism and Christianity in their fundamentals speak about honouring the image of God and the hope of salvation. These are the two basic fundamentals.

The Essence of Islam

Now let's move to the essence of Islam. Islam was born with the idea that it should rule the world.

Let's look, then, at the difference between these three religions. Judaism speaks about national salvation — namely that at the end of the story, when the world becomes a better place, Israel will be in its own land, ruled by its own king and serving God. Christianity speaks about the idea that every single person in the world can be saved from his sins, while Islam speaks about ruling the world. I can quote here in Arabic, but there is no point in quoting Arabic, so let me quote a verse in English. "Allah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it should rule over all the religions."

The idea, then, is not that the whole world would become a Moslem world at this time, but that the whole world would be subdued under the rule of Islam.

When the Islamic empire was established in 634 AD, within seven years — 640 AD — the core of the empire was created. The rules that were taken from the Koran and from the tradition that was ascribed to the prophet Mohammed, were translated into a real legal system. Jews and Christians could live under Islam provided they paid poll tax and accepted Islamic superiority. Of course, they had to be humiliated. And Jews and Christians living under Islam are humiliated to this very day.

Mohammed Held That All the Biblical Prophets Were Moslems

Mohammed did accept the existence of all the Biblical prophets before him. However, he also said that all these prophets were Moslems. Abraham was a Moslem. In fact, Adam himself was the first Moslem. Isaac and Jacob and David and Solomon and Moses and Jesus were all Moslems, and all of them had writings similar to the Koran. Therefore, world history is Islamic history because all the heroes of history were Moslems.

Furthermore, Moslems accept the fact that each of these prophets brought with him some kind of a revelation. Moses, brought the Taurat, which is the Torah, and Jesus brought the Ingeel, which is the Evangelion or Gospel — namely the New Testament.

The Bible vs. the Koran

Why then is the Bible not similar to the Koran?

Mohammed explains that the Jews and Christians forged their books. Had they not been changed and forged, they would have been identical to the Koran. But because Christians and Jews do have some truth, Islam concedes that they cannot be completely destroyed by war [for now].

Nevertheless, the laws are very clear — Jews and Christians have no rights whatsoever to independent existence. They can live under Islamic rule provided they keep to the rules that Islam promulgates for them.

Islamic Rule and Jihad

What happens if Jews and Christians don't want to live under the rules of Islam? Then Islam has to fight them and this fighting is called Jihad. Jihad means war against those people who don't want to accept the Islamic superior rule. That's jihad. They may be Jews; they may be Christians; they may be Polytheists. But since we don't have too many Polytheists left, at least not in the Middle East — their war is against the Jews and Christians.

A few days ago, I received a pamphlet that was distributed in the world by bin Laden. He calls for jihad against America as the leader of the Christian world, not because America is the supporter of Israel, but because Americans are desecrating Arabia with their filthy feet. There are Americans in Arabia were no Christians should be. In this pamphlet there is not a single word about Israel. Only that Americans are desecrating the home of the prophet.

Two Houses

The Koran sees the world as divided into two — one part which has come under Islamic rule and one part which is supposed to come under Islamic rule in the future. There is a division of the world which is very clear. Every single person who starts studying Islam knows it. The world is described as Dar al-Islam (the house of Islam) — that's the place where Islam rules — and the other part which is called Dar al-Harb — the house of war. Not the "house of non-Muslims," but the "house of war." It is this house of war which as to be, at the end of time, conquered. The world will continue to be in the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule.

This is the norm. Why? Because Allah says it's so in the Koran. God has sent Mohammed with the true religion in order that the truth will overcome all other religions.

Islamic Law

Within the Islamic vision of this world, there are rules that govern the lives of the Moslems themselves, and these rules are very strict. In fundamentals, there are no differences between schools of law.

However, there are four streams of factions within Islam with differences between them concerning the minutiae of the laws. All over the Islamic world, countries have favored one or another of these schools of laws.

The strictest school of law is called Hanbali, mainly coming out of Saudi Arabia. There are no games there, no playing around with the meanings of words. If the Koran speaks about war, then it's war.

There are various perspectives in Islam with different interpretations over the centuries. There were good people that were very enlightened in Islam that tried to understand things differently. They even brought traditions from the mouth of the prophet that women and children should not be killed in war. These more liberal streams do exist, but there is one thing that is very important for us to remember. The Hanbali school of law is extremely strict, and today this is the school that is behind most of the terrorist powers. Even if we talk about the existence of other schools of Islamic law, when we're talking about fighting against the Jews, or fighting against the Christian world led by America, it is the Hanbali school of law that is being followed.

Islam and Territory

This civilization created one very important, fundamental rule about territory. Any territory that comes under Islamic rule cannot be de-Islamized. Even if at one time or another, the [non-Moslem] enemy takes over the territory that was under Islamic rule, it is considered to be perpetually Islamic.

This is why whenever you hear about the Arab/Israeli conflict, you hear — territory, territory, territory. There are other aspects to the conflict, but territory is highly important.

The Christian civilization has not only been seen as a religious opponent, but as a dam stopping Islam from achieving its final goal for which it was created.

Islam was created to be the army of God, the army of Allah. Every single Moslem is a soldier in this army. Every single Moslem that dies in fighting for the spread of Islam is a shaheed (martyr) no matter how he dies, because — and this is very important — this is an eternal war between the two civilizations. It's not a war that stops. This war is there because it was created by Allah. Islam must be the ruler. This is a war that will not end.

Islam and Peace

Peace in Islam can exist only within the Islamic world; peace can only be between Moslem and Moslem.

With the non-Moslem world or non-Moslem opponents, there can be only one solution — a cease-fire until Moslems can gain more power. It is an eternal war until the end of days. Peace can only come if the Islamic side wins. The two civilizations can only have periods of cease-fires. And this idea of cease-fire is based on a very important historical precedent, which, incidentally, Yasser Arafat referred to when he spoke in Johannesburg after he signed the Oslo agreement with Israel.

Let me remind you that the document speaks of peace — you wouldn't believe what you are reading! You would think that you were reading some science fiction piece. I mean when you read it, you can't believe that this was signed by Israelis who are actually acquainted with Islamic policies and civilization.

A few weeks after the Oslo agreement was signed, Arafat went to Johannesburg, and in a mosque there he made a speech in which he apologized, saying, "Do you think I signed something with the Jews which is contrary to the rules of Islam?" (I have obtained a copy of Arafat's recorded speech so I heard it from his own mouth.) Arafat continued, "That's not so. I'm doing exactly what the prophet Mohammed did."

Whatever the prophet is supposed have done becomes a precedent. What Arafat was saying was, "Remember the story of Hudaybiya." The prophet had made an agreement there with the tribe of Kuraish for 10 years. But then he trained 10,000 soldiers and within two years marched on their city of Mecca. He, of course, found some kind of pretext.

Thus, in Islamic jurisdiction, it became a legal precedent which states that you are only allowed to make peace for a maximum of 10 years. Secondly, at the first instance that you are able, you must renew the jihad [thus breaking the "peace" agreement].

In Israel, it has taken over 50 years in this country for our people to understand that they cannot speak about [permanent] peace with Moslems. It will take another 50 years for the western world to understand that they have got a state of war with the Islamic civilization that is virile and strong. This should be understood: When we talk about war and peace, we are not talking in Belgium, French, English, or German terms. We are talking about war and peace in Islamic terms.

Cease-fire as a Tactical Choice

What makes Islam accept cease-fire? Only one thing — when the enemy is too strong. It is a tactical choice.

Sometimes, he may have to agree to a cease-fire in the most humiliating conditions. It's allowed because Mohammed accepted a cease-fire under humiliating conditions. That's what Arafat said to them in Johannesburg.

When western policy makers hear these things, they answer, "What are you talking about? You are in the Middle Ages. You don't understand the mechanisms of politics."

Which mechanisms of politics? There are no mechanisms of politics where power is. And I want to tell you one thing — we haven't seen the end of it, because the minute a radical Moslem power has atomic, chemical, or biological weapons, they will use it. I have no doubt about that.

Now, since we face war and we know that we cannot get more than an impermanent cease-fire, one has to ask himself what is the major component of an Israeli/Arab cease-fire. It is that the Islamic side is weak and your side is strong. The relations between Israel and the Arab world in the last 50 years since the establishment of our State has been based only on this idea, the deterrent power.

Wherever You Have Islam, You Will Have War

The reason that we have what we have in Yugoslavia and other places is because Islam succeeded in entering these countries. Wherever you have Islam, you will have war. It grows out of the attitude of Islamic civilization.

What are the poor people in the Philippines being killed for? What's happening between Pakistan and India?

Islamic Infiltration

Furthermore, there is another fact that must be remembered. The Islamic world has not only the attitude of open war, but there's also war by infiltration.

One of the things which the western world is not paying enough attention to is the tremendous growth of Islamic power in the western world. What happened in America and the Twin Towers is not something that came from the outside. And if America doesn't wake up, one day the Americans will find themselves in a chemical war and most likely in an atomic war — inside the U.S.

End of Days

It is highly important to understand how a civilization sees the end of days. In Christianity and in Judaism, we know exactly what is the vision of the end of days.

In Judaism, it is going to be as in Isaiah — peace between nations, not just one nation, but between all nations. People will not have any more need for weapons and nature will be changed — a beautiful end of days and the kingdom of God on earth.

Christianity goes as far as Revelation to see a day that Satan himself is obliterated. There are no more powers of evil. That's the vision.

I'm speaking now as a historian. I try to understand how Islam sees the end of days. In the end of days, Islam sees a world that is totally Moslem, completely Moslem under the rule of Islam. Complete and final victory.

Christians will not exist, because according to many Islamic traditions, the Moslems who are in hell will have to be replaced by somebody and they'll be replaced by the Christians.

The Jews will no longer exist, because before the coming of the end of days, there is going to be a war against the Jews where all Jews should be killed. I'm quoting now from the heart of Islamic tradition, from the books that are read by every child in school. They Jews will all be killed. They'll be running away and they'll be hiding behind trees and rocks, and on that day Allah will give mouths to the rocks and trees and they will say, "Oh Moslem come here, there is a Jew behind me, kill him." Without this, the end of days cannot come. This is a fundamental of Islam.

Is There a Possibility to End This Dance of War?

The question which we in Israel are asking ourselves is what will happen to our country? Is there a possibility to end this dance of war?

The answer is, "No. Not in the foreseeable future." What we can do is reach a situation where for a few years we may have relative quiet.

But for Islam, the establishment of the State of Israel was a reverse of Islamic history. First, Islamic territory was taken away from Islam by Jews. You know by now that this can never be accepted, not even one meter. So everyone who thinks Tel Aviv is safe is making a grave mistake. Territory, which at one time was dominated by Islamic rule, now has become non-Moslem. Non-Moslems are independent of Islamic rule; Jews have created their own independent state. It is anathema.

And (this is the worse) Israel, a non-Moslem state, is ruling over Moslems. It is unthinkable that non-Moslems should rule over Moslems.

I believe that Western civilization should hold together and support each other. Whether this will happen or not, I don't know. Israel finds itself on the front lines of this war. It needs the help of its sister civilization. It needs the help of America and Europe. It needs the help of the Christian world. One thing I am sure about, this help can be given by individual Christians who see this as the road to salvation.

  [Prof. Moshe Sharon teaches Islamic History at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem.]



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: agendaofislam; christianity; clashofcivilizatio; clashofcivilizations; fundamentalism; islam; islamicterrorism; islamofacism; jihad; koran; muslims; religionofpeace; sharia; terrorism
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To: Snerfling
"I believe that if Islam didn't exist, they would have to invent something of a similar nature to justify their mysogynistic/dysfunctional societies."

Maybe you're right. One thing for sure, these Islamic dictators use the religion to foment hatred towards the west, Israel, etc.

"Let's put it this way: over the next 100 or so years, what's the likelihood of a nuclear bomb NOT being set off by Islamics? I'd say 0. "

You're giving me the willies, my FRiend!
I hope and pray you are wrong...but in my heart..(sigh)

Thanks for the replies.
High regards-
FBD

101 posted on 06/17/2004 10:59:53 AM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: Cultural Jihad
"Unsubscribe. Thank you."

You got it.

Keep your eyes wide-shut, my multi-cult-ural FRiend!

;^D

Regards,
FBD

102 posted on 06/17/2004 11:03:49 AM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: FBD; nuconvert
Hey Nu, a couple more pearls of peace and freedom from your quide to holier living.

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say Allah is Christ the Son of Mary." - Sura (chapter) 5:17 of the Koran "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for their is no god except One Allah." Sura 5:73(Sura means chapter) Which would explain why the "Prophet" said: "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends." - [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

Care to spin?

103 posted on 06/17/2004 11:06:55 AM PDT by wtc911 (moderate islam is the swamp where evil festers)
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To: E Rocc; Cultural Jihad; Mudboy Slim; petercooper; dennisw; SJackson; Salem; B4Ranch; MeekOneGOP; ...
". . the single greatest killer of Americans is moral-liberalism."

The Rise of Moral Relativism will the death knell for America - courteousy of The Democratic Socialist Party of America . .

* * * * * *

America's New Relativism


This is Nancy Pearcey in the Public Square

How did September 11 change America?  Our hopes went up when polls showed a spike in church attendance, but that has fallen off.  The lasting change may be bleaker, says pollster George Barna. 

The number of Americans who say they believe in unchanging, absolute moral truths dropped from 38 percent before the attacks to only 22 percent after.

We’ve heard the slogan, time and again, that the enemy is not Islam, it’s intolerance.  And Americans seem to be taking that to heart—defining tolerance as fuzzy relativism.

Barna’s research also shows that some 64 percent of Americans agree with the statement, “It does not matter what religious faith you follow”—and that “Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and all others pray to the same God.”This growing relativism may be the greatest challenge facing Christians in America after 9/11.  The very idea of truth has been put on trial. I’m Nancy Pearcey.

From The Access Research Network, Nancy Pearcey

* * * * * *

Relativism, Religion, and the First Amendment

Relativism, Religion, and the First Amendment
By Jan Ireland

To launch the greatest experiment in freedom the world has ever known, America’s Founding Fathers must have possessed freedom in their very DNA. But nature apparently passes along those freedom genes sparingly, since nothing like America has occurred before or since. It is not unexpected that freedom-hating forces, so rampant in the world, would do their best to chip away at America. Relativism, the idea that individuals decide according to their own personal judgments what is good or bad, is one of the greatest aggressors. A return to the public presence of religion, under the auspices of the First Amendment, may be needed to combat Relativism’s erosive societal effects.


Relativism is perhaps the prettiest of all freedom-haters. It’s a slow, insidious takeover. Its sinuous insertion into society can occupy decades. When rebuffed, it simply keeps trying, until for society t’s easier not to fight.

Relativism plays to America’s fairness. It purports to give equal weight to all systems of thought, all systems of belief. And it claims to empower the individual, by urging self-reliance. Who could argue with such a surface? Isn’t that the reason America was founded, after all? Isn’t that what the phrase in the Declaration of Independence says?

Actually, no. And here is where Relativism pulls its greatest bait and switch.

America was not founded to makes all things equal. America was founded to give freedom to all. The phrase in the Declaration that ‘all men are created equal’ means just that. It does not say that they will then be equal in all ways at all times, throughout their lives, and in all their endeavors. That this idea virtually pervades American society today shows that semi-sages have misquoted and mangled our historical heritage for decades.

The surface arguments of Relativism pose another very real danger. Giving equal weight to all systems o belief or thinking, causes legitimate right thinking to be shunted aside. It’s the ‘one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter’ argument. That all societies, or even all within a society, don’t agree on definitions does not mean the values themselves don’t exist. And it is possible to determine which side in a fight is the terrorist, and which is the freedom fighter.

Relativism’s favorite target is of course religion, since religion is its antithesis. Liberals whipping up a furor to expunge any vestige of God from the public square now are operating from the extreme of Relativism. The seemingly benign tenets of Relativism are actually an attempt to foist the liberals’ beliefs, in effect their own ‘religion’, onto society. This is why liberals constantly assert that there is a ‘separation of church and state’ in the constitution, though the phrase does not appear there. It comes from a phrase in a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote, a full decade after the Bill of Rights were ratified. The reater trap for America, also, is that Relativism is so handily aided by political correctness.

Relativism often hides behind the ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ argument, and that argument has some validity. But the revolving door of offend/forgive/reoffend, a ‘get out of trouble free’ card for everyone from pop singers to ex-presidents, has shown this argument’s unsuitability to moral standard.

It is incongruous that we daily exhort society to heed medical advice, yet invite screaming banshees if we dare suggest that society seek spiritual advice. Just as advocating what works medically makes our society healthier, advocating what works spiritually could make our society happier. Some seem not to want integrity and ethical behavior to return to America.

The First Amendment says about religion, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” The murky minds of liberals and atheists have played the child’s game of Twistr with those words, so that they have become an unrecognizable screed. They construe them as a phony mandate to systematically remove every smidgen of the evidence of the Christian God.

Relativism is allowing them to do it.

The best defense is America’s return to the public expression of religion. It is not prohibited by the Constitution. It does not exclude anyone. And a careful reading of our history shows that it is what the Founding Fathers had in mind.
Relativism, Religion, and the First Amendment

104 posted on 06/17/2004 11:57:50 AM PDT by Happy2BMe (Ronald Reagan to Islamic Terrorism: YOU CAN RUN - BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
"...the single greatest killer of Americans is moral-liberalism."

No argument here...MUD

105 posted on 06/17/2004 12:00:12 PM PDT by Mudboy Slim ("DemonRATS" Is Their Name...Socialism Is Their Aim!!)
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To: Cultural Jihad; FBD
"Unsubscribe. Thank you."

LOL...does that translate to "Don't ping me no mo'!!"

FReegards...MUD

106 posted on 06/17/2004 12:02:27 PM PDT by Mudboy Slim ("DemonRATS" Is Their Name...Socialism Is Their Aim!!)
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To: FBD; Smartass; dennisw; SJackson; MeekOneGOP; devolve; Salem; JohnHuang2; B4Ranch; Geist Krieger; ..
-Warraq and Spencer have studied this bigoted religious cult for decades, and they say: If you think Communism was evil, then you ain't seen nothing yet, when it comes to what Islam is capable of.
Just like Communism, It IS A SOCIO-POLITICAL MOVEMENT. (It) Only it hides under a veil of religion."

____________________________________

You ain't seen nuthin' yet is right.

Have you ever heard of a man named "Thomas McInerney?"

Find his book, ENDGAME and read it, you won't believe what is getting ready to hit the fan.

HINT: Thomas McInerney is a retired 3-Star USAF Lt. General and was the guy who holding the "Russian Bear" at bay from the North American Continent when Gorbachev followed Ronald Reagan's cue and TORE DOWN THAT WALL.

ENDGAME

From two retired generals and strategists: a blueprint for winning the war on terror

"It would be folly for the United States and its allies to wait for the results of the 2004 presidential and congressional elections before they lay out a comprehensive strategy against the Web of Terror. The terrorists will not wait until January 20, 2005, and neither should we."

107 posted on 06/17/2004 12:29:35 PM PDT by Happy2BMe (Ronald Reagan to Islamic Terrorism: YOU CAN RUN - BUT YOU CAN'T HIDE!)
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To: FBD

You must not be familiar with my posts..........

CAIR is the enemy. They are NOT mainstream.

Amir Taheri, I have no argument with. I admire his work.


108 posted on 06/17/2004 12:40:54 PM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( Azadi baraye Iran)
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To: Mudboy Slim


I thinks so...sniff, sniff...

;^D


109 posted on 06/17/2004 12:41:25 PM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: wtc911

Spin? Seems pretty straightforward.
It's their religion. They're free to believe as they like.
You have any Jewish friends who think God is Christ the Son of Mary?


110 posted on 06/17/2004 12:46:27 PM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( Azadi baraye Iran)
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To: wtc911

There's no point in what you're doing.

Here's what Daniel Pipes said about the Koran :

"That's because the Koran is:

Profound. One cannot pick it up and understand its meaning when nearly every sentence is the subject of annotations, commentaries, glosses, and superglosses. Such a document requires intensive study of its context, development, and rival interpretations."

"Static: An unchanging holy scripture cannot account for change over time. If the Koran causes terrorism, then how does one explain the 1960s, when militant Islamic violence barely existed? The Koran was the same text then as now. More broadly, over a period of 14 centuries, Muslims have been inspired by the Koran to act in ways aggressive and passive, pious and not, tolerant and not. Logic demands that one look elsewhere than an immutable text to account for such shifts."

"Complex and contradictory. Contradictions in the text have been studied and reconciled over the centuries through extensive scholarly study. Some verses have been abrogated and replaced by others with contrary meanings."

"Partial: Holy books have vast importance but do not create the immediate context of action. Reading the Bible in isolation gives limited insight into the range of Jewish and Christian experiences over the millennia; likewise, Muslims have read the Koran differently over time."


111 posted on 06/17/2004 1:02:29 PM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( Azadi baraye Iran)
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To: nuconvert; Mudboy Slim; wtc911; Happy2BMe
"You must not be familiar with my posts.........."

- No, FRiend, I'm not. I do appreciate your reply.

"CAIR is the enemy. They are NOT mainstream."

Ok. Fair enough. Someone should call the networks and let them know this, because I see Ibram Hooper -(sic?) from CAIR on TV, all the time, speaking on behalf of Muslims.

"Amir Taheri, I have no argument with. I admire his work."

- OK. How about Ibn Warraq, who wrote "Why I am not a Muslim", and Robert Spencer, who wrote Onward Muslim Soldiers, etc?

What is your opinion of them?


And I do have one more very serious question for you FRiend, and I'm not trying to bait you:
Which of the two men (below) do you think portrayed the better example of a Godly life, in actions, words and deeds:

Jesus, who said:
" Love your enemies", and healed hundreds with the touch of His hand, and never harmed a hair on anyone's head, or:
The "Prophet", (peace be uopn him) who used his sword to be-head his enemies?

It's a very serious question, and it deserves a serious answer.
Jesus once said of false prophets:
"You will know them by their fruits."(their deeds)

Jesus demonstrated His good works, in loving kindness towards all, including His enemies.
Now...What did The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) demonstrate by beheading his enemies?

Regards.

112 posted on 06/17/2004 1:09:31 PM PDT by FBD (...Please press 2 for English...for Espanol, please stay on the line...)
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To: nuconvert
"Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29)." -

Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123). -

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5) -

So says the koran. You want us to believe that this cult classic is too deep to be understood at face value. I call that apologist spin. The instructions are simple, direct, clear. You are serving the interest of those who follow this formula for killing.

113 posted on 06/17/2004 2:28:27 PM PDT by wtc911 (moderate islam is the swamp where evil festers)
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To: wtc911

Daniel Pipes is an apologist, now?

You've got a serious problem.


114 posted on 06/17/2004 2:32:41 PM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( Azadi baraye Iran)
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To: nuconvert
"Daniel Pipes is an apologist, now?"

No, I believe you are an apologist for islam.

You spend significant energy trying to convince us that islam is compatible with liberty and freedom. Nowhere on this planet is that proven so. The contrary is the reality.

I do not trust your motives. If you can point me to a web site where you spend an equal amount of energy trying to convince muslims that they need to stand up against what your brothers are doing then I might rethink my opinion. I do not though think that you can.

115 posted on 06/17/2004 2:54:28 PM PDT by wtc911 (moderate islam is the swamp where evil festers)
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To: carton253
Thanks for the correction. The Kaba has the rock in the box, right? What rock is the dome of the rock associated with?

And don't say Rock the Casbah.

116 posted on 06/17/2004 3:04:17 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (Stop the war. ********** NUKE EM NOW !)
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To: nuconvert
You have any Jewish friends who think God is Christ the Son of Mary?

I do, actually. In fact, there's a Messianic synagogue right down the street.

117 posted on 06/17/2004 3:09:17 PM PDT by ovrtaxt (Stop the war. ********** NUKE EM NOW !)
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To: wtc911

"I do not trust your motives"

I don't care whether you do or not.

End of conversation.


118 posted on 06/17/2004 3:10:20 PM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( Azadi baraye Iran)
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To: ovrtaxt

LoL. Good one.


119 posted on 06/17/2004 3:11:02 PM PDT by nuconvert ("America will never be intimidated by thugs and assassins." ( Azadi baraye Iran)
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To: nuconvert
"I do not trust your motives" I don't care whether you do or not......

Of course you don't, why would you. I just want others here to get an idea of what role you're playing.

120 posted on 06/17/2004 3:26:27 PM PDT by wtc911 (moderate islam is the swamp where evil festers)
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