Posted on 06/23/2004 10:42:14 AM PDT by churchillbuff
The ones that really annoy me are the folks who set up booths on the street and accost every stranger who passes by... to be fair, I am equally annoyed by the Hare Krishnas when they do the same thing, and the loudspeaker trucks that every little sect on the planet seems to enjoy driving down Broadway.
I hear much worse is happening through loudspeakers in a small town in Michigan--thanks to open borders.
Yeah me too. Islam, unlike any of the other religions mentioned on this thread, is a BIG F-ing problem. Unlike Christianity and Judaism, or even Bhuddism or any of the other benign religions, Islam destroys the humanity of its adherents, making them into murderers or supporters thereof.
The reason why I describe myself as philo-Christian is that I recognize that, while I do not adhere to Christian doctrine, those that do tend to be better people, and specifically, more respectful of human life and liberty, than those that do not follow a religion, or those that follow a religion with no such virtues. I don't have to believe in Jesus to recognize that Christiantity creates good people.
Islam, on the other hand, seems designed to create serviles for whoever can amass the most power, regardless of virtue.
This is a common misconception among Jews.
It is true that Judaism is not missionary in the sense of requiring non-Jews to become Jews (since the Jews are a small nation with a special national covenant with G-d). However, Jews are charged with converting all non-Jews to the Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah, and these commandments forbid not only murder, theft, and sexual misconduct, but idolatry as well. Now I realize that there is a lot of Halakhic discussion as to whether or not sincere chr*stians are idolators, but idolatry or not, chr*stianity is simply false, and one is always better off by knowing the truth.
Moreover, the non-Jew is obligated not only to accept the Seven Noachide Laws but to do so specifically on the authority of the Torah which G-d gave to Moses and Israel on Mt. Sinai, and not for the rationality of the laws themselves.
RaMBa"M in the Mishneh Torah actually says that Moses was charged with confronting every single non-Jew with the choice of conversion to the Noachide laws or death--a task that I suspect will actually be fulfilled during Milchemet Gog uMagog.
This isn't exactly what most Jews think their attitude towards the non-Jewish world is supposed to be, but, as I understand it, this is the true Torah position. What many Jews fail to understand is that the attitude that "hey, it doesn't matter which G-d/"gxd" you believe in so long as you're a good person" is absolutely incomprehensible to their Evangelical "opponents."
I'm simply restricting myself to what is within my rights as a human being. It is God's prerogative to punish idolaters, not man's. He never assigned that role to us with regards to non-Jews, to the best of my knowledge. So if He wishes to punish them, He will, in His own way and time.
I'd like to see the scriptural reference on which the claim that Moses was charged with converting non-Jews. I'll admit I've never heard of such a thing, and would be most interested to examine the evidence.
1) Non-Jews, no matter how sincerely friendly, will not save Israel. HaShem will save Israel. It is true that the sooner the Jews themselves return to the fullness of Torah and do their jobs the better it will be for everyone, but even in the worst case scenario, if this never happens, Mashiach will still come and Israel (and the world) rescued, though the delay will cause much suffering. I also call to your attention that since the Exodus the Jews have had to contend with the `Eirev Rav (the great mixed multitude) which went up with them and instituted most of the disobedience and resulting tragedies that occurred during the wanderings in the wilderness. Apparently Israel's final battle will not be with the accursed nation of `Amaleq but with this `Eirev Rav which still exists and which which strives to pull Benei Yisra'el away from their Heavenly Father.
2) With regard to the Passion flap, please understand that the reason so many Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestant chr*stians were in love with that picture was that they thought it portrayed the "vicarious damnation" of their savior which relieved them of all law, ceremony, and even participation in their own salvation (after all, if J*sus has assumed one's position in Hell, where else is there to go but Heaven?). At the time of the controversy I urged Mr. Gibson's Fundamentalist fans to ask him why, if he understood the sufferings of Chr*st so well, he (as a Catholic) still felt the need to spend a lifetime of praying, confessions, doing good deeds, avoiding sins, and participation in the Church's ceremonial, after which he may still be damned (the traditional Catholic doctrine is not only that one is never "eternally saved" in this life but that one never knows absolutely whether or not one is in the "state of grace"). While I criticized the hypocritical Jewish attacks on the film, I still wonder if it was not made in part to pull Fundamentalists away from the Jews and draw them towards the Catholic Church.
3) With regard to "the h word" (by which I assume you mean the one I used above), please be aware that a local Fundamentalist university once invited devout Catholic Tommy Lasorda to speak at a sports banquet and his language (though tame by the standards of today's mainstream culture) was considered by them to be extremely coarse and inappropriate.
Just some thoughts!
This is something that I just don't get (and I'm Jewish!). It's typical of liberal thought, though. They simply don't allow the facts to get in the way of their beliefs. For instance, if they want to see an example of exactly what they're looking for, a "racially diversified, de-Christianized country," all they need to do is look towards France.
Mark
Charlotte the Shiksa says--"Well, now I can't talk about it because you said 'Holocaust'"--too many times the Shoah is used as a rhetorical trump card in discussion. Charlotte eventually converted--he dumped her, but she was not a "fair weather Jew" and continued her observance, only to find herself constantly fixed up with the sons of the nice ladies at her synagogue. Cute story line.
That's what I meant by the "H" word.
"I only wish it were sarcasm. But I have no innocent explanation to give to other Jews as to why, for example, the Southern Baptists specifically target Jews for conversion. What sort of reaction would you have if another religion targeted you for conversion?"
You have got to be kidding. You say you are a Christian and you're saying the other Christians trying convert Jews is a problem?
That's an unfair characterization... Judaism is NOT "for Jews only." The reluctance to convert comes from centuries of forced conversion by others against the Jews, as well as the belief that if one wants to become Jewish, they will be welcomed, but the initiation needs to come from those who wish to convert.
There's a saying though, that not everyone was born to be a Jew, meaning that if you're going to be an observant, religious Jew, there are many obligations, and many people are simply not willing or able to perform those obligations. Including the vast majority of Jews.
Mark
"There's a saying though, that not everyone was born to be a Jew, meaning that if you're going to be an observant, religious Jew, there are many obligations, and many people are simply not willing or able to perform those obligations. Including the vast majority of Jews."
Actually, no human can fulfill those obligations...Hence that whole Messiah thing ;-)
However,now none of these 4 countries are 'Christian',and i'm not sure the 'diversity' lobbyists expected the change in demographics to occur so fast.The same groups they were lobbying to enter the host countries,may be the same ones who end up persecuting them worse than any 'white' Christians.
Anyone with half a brain knows the diversity dogma has done little besides turn western nations into torn ethnic ghettos,but hindsight is 20/20 and i'm sure that the Jewish intention wasnt to turn western nations into wastelands(as certain founding fathers and pioneers said when they tried to not allow Jews into 'frontier' America for fear of Jews doing to America what they had supposedly to Europe,and as Hitler said over 100 years later).
The best thing Christians,Jews and others who enjoy the values of western culture is to take a realistic look at the situation and work out sane immigration policies that work for everyone who loves freedom and our collective way of life.
Because you didn't editorialize the title. If you'd offered a conclusion in the title, something like (because Jews Hate Christians) the thread would have gotten more attention.
Hold on a second. Liberal Jewish organizations (sorry, but most Jewish orgs are liberal) support immigration. They do so not only because they are liberal, but also because of a particular Jewish history...While most immigrants are Christians, a significant number are Muslim. Any significant Muslim immigration posses a threat to Jews. (Go read Stephen Steinlight's article.)...At any rate, the net result is that most Jewish orgs support Muslim immigration to the US irrespective of the threat this causes to America, and American Jews in particular.
I agree with you. Liberals, including liberal Jews, support immigration for a number of reasons, but I don't think you can make that case that increasing the Muslim population is one of them, any more than hating Christians (the bulk of the immigrants) is. Clearly a larger Muslim population is one of the results, and one that should be addressed. The misdirection is probably more one of the thread than the article.
I'm not a Christian, and never claimed to be. I like Christianity though, as I find it in general cultivates virtue.
By the way, as one rabbi has pointed out, since "holocaust" is the Septuagint Greek transliteration of the Torah's word `olah ("whole burnt offering") it is actually a singularly inappropriate word for what the Natzim (mach shemam) did. He also pointed out that the constant anti-Semitic attacks disputing the number of Jews who died in that tragedy may be Divine punishment for counting Jews--something forbidden by the Torah since every Jew is the equivalent of an entire world.
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