Posted on 07/26/2004 4:51:56 PM PDT by Rakkasan1
Swathed in a white robe with a rope cinched about his waist, Jay Wiesner stood in silence Sunday afternoon as parishioners clustered around, laying their hands on his shoulders while scores more stretched out their hands in his direction.
(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...
Question: If the local bishop does not recognize this, then is he really ordained? I thought the bishop had to be involved in sanctioning an official "ordination"?
Just curious. There may be more to the story down the road....
For those who are interested in joining the fight go to: www.ELCF.net
Please add me to the Lutheran ping list.
My reply here concerns the LCMS,
I was a voting lay delegate at the St. Louis convention we had two weeks ago. My take is the LCMS has very few problems. I am as conservative as a man can be. There are times the GOP is to moderate for me. Also my theology and strong belief in the Holy Word and Lutheran confessions is strong. My take on the LCMS, and I was there all week at the convention. Is we are all conservative in our theological stances, a Church true to the Word of God and the Lutheran Confessions. Our take is that the holy word is literal true word of God, against Woman pastors, against abortion, against homosexuality, evolution, etc.
The issue is what do we focus on the most; Doctrine (confession) or Mission and growth. The ultra structural doctrine type want to focus almost totally on that, the reason is a fear we promote mission to much and forget doctrine we will become like the other lost Christian churches. The domino effect as I see it. As state in an earlier post, there is a fear that if a LCMS Church changes its worship service style to more contemporary then it will start a slippery slop that will lead us down a path false doctrine. Also if we talk and work with other Christian bodies that our unsound it will damage us and we fall prey also.
The other side is saying We most focus on our primary duty to be a tool the Holy Spirit uses it reaching the lost souls. That we should focus on missions and the great commission and growth the lord church, if that means changing our service some and changing our structure of worship and song for some churches and also focusing primarily on evangelism. This side says this is our first Duty, but to also keep true to the Holy Scripture and the Lutheran confessions. That is the question can we keep that. The answer I concluded was Yes. Everyone there was conservative and true to the scripture and confession. It is really a political power struggle between those who want to focus on growth the LCMS and keep true to our principles, but make the Churches more mission driven and growth the Church. Against the people who wish the LCMS to stay as we have been in our worship style and structure.
What must be remembered is the principles do not change, true to sacraments, confession and absolution, etc., what changes is the song, etc. Also is the practice of closed communion can be an issue. Must remember that as a Church Body the LCMS is still one of the most conservative and will remain that way as long as we stay true to the holy word of God. Once we change and start throwing our scripture saying it does not fit into todays society then we are in the same trouble as the ELCA of the world (i.e. Women pastors, abortion, homosexuality, all un biblical practices) Yet, certain parts of the worship service based on human authority, i.e. What creed, songs, are ushers male or female, can women read the Old Testament scripture etc. The question is a human structural question we face and we have always faced it, the worry that with a little change we will change our biblical and confessional principles. But this did not happen when we went from German services to English in the 40s, or woman did not have to sit on one side of church and men the other, or we allowed woman to vote in the 70s. These were human rules. From what I saw the LCMS is found on its Biblical principles and will not change that. We will never allow woman pastors, or homosexual members let alone pastors, or approve of abortion because it is unbiblical.
The reason is we have only two great seminaries that are very true to the word of God and the Confessions. The liberal seminaries are what as harmed the ELCA.
Please put me on the Lutheran ping list
Thank You!
Luther wasn't known for his ecumenical spirit.
He hated Anabaptists and Calvinists as much as Catholics. But in this case, I'd say his rage would certainly be justified.
Consider it done ping.
There is a small ECLA congragation in Key West that has an ordained gay pastor.
Thanks for your post,
I would have to disagree with you on a few points. For the last 5 months I have studied all the issues facing our church, LCMS. I most also note I am very conservative, go to a conservative church use pg. 5 & 15 of the red 1941 ed. Lutheran Hymnal. I was also a delegate. Will we lose some church? , Yes we always have. We lost over 150 Churches when we allowed woman to vote. There are 6000 LCMS Churches and 2.6 million members. Yet, I do believe we are still true to Scriptures and the Confessions. There are those who think if we allow some churches to have a contemporary Worship style this will make their service less. I disagree, for as long as they keep the basic structure; the absolution, confession, Holy Scripture and the word and sacrament, it should be ok. I may not be comfortable there, but it may reach out to a new generation that the Holy Spirit will use to come to Faith in Christ. There are those who think a pastor should only preach from the pulpit, but does it matter it he speaks from the pulpit or walks on the stage. These are the issues we face.
The other is how much contact do we have with other Christians. I think the CTRC position here stands strong, as long as it is not a worship service you can have relations. We must continue to reach out to our other Brother and sisters and influence to come back to the true scriptures. In my community there are only two churches the LCMS church mine about 1100 members and down the road the ELCA church 150-200 members. In a small town it is hard not to come in contact and do civic events together. Also that ELCA is very conservative. We cannot close our church up into a cocoon. We must be more outward. This is the LCMS weakest point, we have the theology right, but we keep it to our self instead of more evangelism. Also we can be so structured and ridged in our service that it turns people away. We can change things a little, become more mission minded and give some church the flexibility to change the service a little, without sacrificing our Lutheran Confessions, Biblical principles, IMO. People make President Kieschnick to be so liberal, I have met him recently and found him to be very conservative theologically, and he is just more flexible to our structure. He being an Texas Aggie grad comes across as more a good old boy type, than the old stanch German type, He is very mission focused, I think a strong Leader on fire for Christ, and wanting that for our Church.
Just my thoughts, I will always keep an open mind to change, and will do so if I ever see us move away from our confessions or Bible based beliefs, I will be in Houston in 2007, I am sure that will be as fun as it was in St. Louis this Summer.
In Chris,
Troy
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