Posted on 08/18/2004 12:55:19 PM PDT by Littlejon
O'Neill and his chorus of haters...
Kerry didn't Rambo his way through the war so much as he Spielberged his way through it.
It would be nice if Halfworth could explain what, exactly, was more horrible, more unwinnable, about Vietnam than any other war. Halfworth seems to be a lib by birth, and military by association-- he waves his military credentials proudly as a way to justify his seemingly contradicting positions. I would also like to know if he persoanlly committed (or even witnessed) atrocities in Vietnam-- supposedly, they were all the rage over there, right?
Sure, Bush dodged the draft, along with a reported 14 million other Americans with the savvy to work out that Vietnam was a no-win, sorry war. But although he had the luck and the connections to land a spot in the Air Guard, he did put his butt on the line flying a machine for which he was entitled to hazardous-duty pay - and that's because zooming around in a jet fighter was and still is highly dangerous.
I remember when FR had a whole contingent of Hackworth groupies and if you spoke out against him you were thoroughly attacked. I would post on every Hackworth thread that the guy was a phoney. In the last year they have disappeared and I certainly feel vindicated.
Funny how Kerry is wonderful for his service and HE DIDN"T VOLUNTEER. he was about to be drafted in the army and wanted to stay in France and study, but was going to be drafted and then he joined the Navy. I find it odd that Kerry is okay for his service, but the guys on the same boats and with loads of their own medals are muckrakers
He is just defending his leader in VVAW.
I am tired of these accusations that anyone who joined the National Guard in the 1960s was somehow a draft dodger.
Didn't the government have to fill the positions?? Were we just supposed to leave the Guard empty?
What about the Coast Guard. Were they draft dodgers also. A good friend of mine at the time had always wanted to join the Coast Guard, and that's what he did in 1968.
According to Kerry and Hackworth, my friend is a draft dodger.
I wish the National Guard veterans association, or whatever they are, would put out a statement telling Kerry to shut his piehole.
Just like Kerry who enlisted in the Navy hoping for a safe assignment on a ship.
righto. thank-you for your service. now shut up.
The media cannot even get close to keeping this story straight.
Hack is a deadhead who has switched his loyalty. He speeks loudly against the remarks he said when he once was a attributor on Fox.
Hack is 180 degrees off on this one. I am a Vietnam veteran (full 12 months in 1968-69) who supports O'Neill and his fellow Swifties (because the facts support them) and oppose Kerry (because of his blatant lies about his tour and his slander of all of us during his now-forgotten VVAW years).
Every Vietnam veteran I know is proud to have served there and does not think the war was wrong.
We think alike. Hack's muckraking sent Boorda to the grave, but he's willing to give a serial traitor a pass.
Hack jumped the shark long ago. He is in need of a credibility transfusion ...quick.
Can anybody explain to me why Hack hates Jane Fonda? It makes no sense for him to hate her and shill for Kerry?
Hack is a strange egg.
Hack is not revelant, and where was he during Waco? Down playing it in the SOF magazine. I am a military retiree, who served 5 years in the Army NG and the rest active duty. Hack can jump in the lake for all I care about him/his silly comments. Bush/Cheney2004
Bttt
HE NEEDS TO LEARN HIS OWN HISTORY, OR STOP SHOOTING OFF HIS MOUTH
It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In fact, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.
F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of air combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Amazingly, some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets.
These missions were also dangerous, given the risks inherent to low-level attacks against armed ground troops. A total of 14 or 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one is believed to have been lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong attacks, and the remainder succumbed to training accidents.
Such accidents were quite common even in peacetime conditions, which is not unusual for military aircraft whose pilots risk their lives on every flight. ANG sources indicate that only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.
Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a volunteer program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline duty. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not activating their squadrons.
Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.
After being accepted into the ANG, Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training even though his test scores were the lowest acceptable for that position. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant, which is required for pilot candidates. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.
Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970. The previously mentioned Maurice Udell was a flight instructor for Lt. Bush who was interviewed by the Associated Press in February 2004. MAJ Udell recalled that Bush was one of his best students saying that, "I'd rank him in the top five percent."
As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush and other pilots in his position were likely candidates to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia between December 1969 and mid-1971 (Sources conflict on the date of withdrawal. It may be that the final combat mission was flown in December 1969 but the plane remained in theater until 1971.) The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States, a duty largely delegated to the ANG by this time.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml
And Kerry dodged the draft, too. When his deferment was denied, he could have gone into the draft and served as assigned. Instead he enlisted for what he thought would be interdiction duty offshore. I am not criticizing him for this, my plan was to do the same thing (until my draft lottery number came out so high), I am just looking for the balance that requires noting that they both dodged the draft.
If hack supports this clown...bye bye
All I can say is, Hackworth may have been good at tactics, but he is a terrible judge of character. My take is that --if you were in, or for--the military of VietNam times, he is against YOU. It stems from his gradge and battle against the U.S. Army, FROM WHICH HE QUIT-DURING WARTIME.
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