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Vets refuse to forgive Kerry for antiwar acts
Washington Times ^ | February 20, 2004 | By Charles Hurt

Posted on 09/07/2004 1:24:21 PM PDT by Calpernia


"If I got three Purple Hearts for three scratches, I'd be embarrassed," said Ted Sampley, who fought in Vietnam and publishes U.S. Veteran Dispatch. He remembers soldiers turning away awards for minor injuries.

Mr. Kerry has said none of his Purple Heart injuries, only one of which removed him from the field for two days, was critical.

After his third Purple Heart, Mr. Kerry requested and was granted permission to return to the United States to work behind a desk in New York. Even while still a Navy man, he began traveling to antiwar rallies with leading war protesters such as Adam Walinsky, a former speechwriter for Robert F. Kennedy.

Mr. Walinsky recalled that Mr. Kerry flew him around the state of New York for several Vietnam Moratorium protests in October 1969.

"He was a guy who had been in the war," he said. "We spent a lot of time talking about the campaign, the presidential campaign and the Vietnam War."

Mr. Kerry has said he did not take part in the protests, but was intrigued by Mr. Walinsky's views about the war. The two men stayed in contact and "became reasonably good friends," Mr. Walinsky said.

Others were shocked by the Naval officer's association with the antiwar movement.

"He gets this cushy job in his hometown, goes around protesting the war, then asks to get out six months early," Mr. Sampley said. "What regulations were busted when Kerry — as a Naval officer and still on the payroll — was flying around protesting the war? And who had to stand in and fight for John Kerry after he left six months early?"

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

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To: Calpernia

Testimony of Michael D. Benge

before the House International Relations Committee

Chaired by the Honorable Benjamin A. Gilman,

November 4, 1999.

My name is Michael D. Benge. While serving as a civilian Economic Development Officer in the Central Highlands of South Viet Nam, I was captured by the North Vietnamese during the Tet Offensive on January 28, 1968. I was held in numerous camps in South Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos and North Viet Nam. I was a POW for over five years, and spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a "black box," and one year in a cage in Cambodia. I served for almost 11 years in Viet Nam. I was released during Operation Homecoming in 1973. I am a Board Member of the National Alliance of Families for the Return of America's Missing Servicemen. And, I am a POW/MIA activist; that is, I am one who is actively seeking the truth regarding the fate of our Prisoners of War and Missing in Action.

I was not tortured by the Cubans, nor was I part of the "Cuban Program." There were 19 American POWs that I know of who were tortured by the Cubans in Hanoi during the Vietnam War. These brave men include Colonel Jack Bomar and Captain Ray Vohden, who will testify, and also Commander Al Carpenter, who is with us today. They named their torturers "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho." The torture took place in a POW camp called the Zoo, and the Vietnamese camp commander was a man they called the "Lump." He was called that because of the presence of a rather large fatty tumor in the middle of his forehead.

No, I was not tortured by Cubans in Vietnam, but I was interrogated by the "Lump," and a person who appeared to be a Latino and who spoke a few words of Spanish to the "Lump" during my interrogation in the early part of 1970. Upon my return to the U.S., I was shown a picture taken in Cuba of the "Lump," who was with an American anti-war group. Yes, it was the same person who had interrogated me in 1970. I was told by a Congressional Investigator that he was the man who was in charge of funneling Soviet KGB money to American anti-war groups and activists, such as Jane Fonda. After researching my paper, this made more sense, for who would be better suited to liaison with the Cubans. This was my first piece of the puzzle.

I decided to research the "Cuban Program" after repeated claims by the Administration, Senators John McCain and John Kerry, Ambassador Pete Peterson, and members of the Department of Defense (DOD) that the Vietnamese Government was "cooperating fully" in resolving the POW/MIA issue. This is far from the truth.

If the Vietnamese communists were fully cooperating as purported, they would have told us the true fate of the 173 U.S. servicemen who were last known to be alive and in the hands of the North Vietnamese communists. They would have helped us resolve the fate of over 600 American servicemen who were lost in Laos, of which over 80% were lost in areas under the total control of the North Vietnamese. If the Vietnamese were fully cooperating, we would not be here today, for they would have revealed the names of the Cubans "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho," who were responsible for the torture of 19 American POWs; beating one so severly that it resulted in his death.

Upon their return to the U.S., the POWs in the "Cuban Program" were told by our government not to tell of their torture by the Cubans, but they resisted, as they had in the "Cuban Program, and some broke the silence. Regardless, the "Cuban Program" was swept under the rug by the U.S. Government.

Thus, I chose to research the "Cuba Program"--one segment of the POW/MIA issue--to prove my point that the Vietnamese communists were not fully cooperating as purported. I first produced a draft paper in 1996 for presentation at the annual meeting of the National Alliance of Families.

Commander Chip Beck, who at that time was with the Department of Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office (DPMO), became interested in my research, and tried to find out what DPMO knew. He was basically told by DPMO to back off. Congressman Bob Dornan also became interested. He held hearings, and requested that DPMO provide them with their analysis of the Cuban Program. A compilation was presented, and Mr. Robert Destatte from DPMO testified as to his and DPMO's analysis. Commander Beck also testified; after which, he was told by DPMO that his services were no longer needed.

With the release of DPMO's compilation and analysis, and the declassification of additional documents related to Cuba's involvement in Vietnam, I reassessed this information. In the DPMO compilation, there were memoranda stating that the CIA had identified Cuban military attaches Eduardo Morjon Esteves and Luis Perez Jaen with backgrounds that seemed to correspond with information on "Fidel" and "Chico" provided by returned POWs. Reportedly, Esteves served under diplomatic cover as a brigadier general at the United Naions in New York during 1977-78. Documents indicate that the FBI and DIA were "tasked" to ID these people; however, neither the CIA, the DIA, nor the FBI could produce a decent picture for identification by the returned POWs. It makes one wonder as to their level of effort.

Nonetheless, just from my reading the documents in the DPMO compilation, I found the profile of a man that that seemed to match almost perfectly the POWs' description of the Cuban called "Chico." However, this profile also partially fit the POWs' characterization of "Fidel." The profile was that of Major Fernando Vecino Alegret.

On August 22, 1999, the Miami Herald published an article on the "Cuban Program" based partially on my report. However, the reporter got it wrong and said that I believed Raul Valdes Vivo, the DGI agent attached to COSVN (ref. my submitted report), might be "Fidel." Independent of my report, a Cuban exile in the Miami area identified Fernando Vecino Alegret as "Fidel," based on information emanating from contacts within the exile community and Cuba. He also produced a picture of Alegret that was subsequentially identified by Col. Hubbard, who said he was 99% sure he was "Fidel." Alegret is now Cuba's Minister of Education, and Fidel Castro has issued a denial that Alegret was ever in Vietnam. However, DIA documentation in DPMO's compilation proves otherwise.

In Mr. Destatte's testimony, he claims he "was never responsible for any investigations or analysis related to the "Cuban Program." "Responsible" is the key word here that Mr. Destatte parses.

The Administration and the Department of Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office (DPMO) has mastered the art of obfuscation. I grew up on a farm in the West, and I used to try to catch greased pigs at the county fair, and I can assure you that trying to pin down DPMO to truthful facts is sometims much more difficult than trying to catch a greased pig.

Mr. Chuck Towbridge of DPMO is also implicated as participating in the investigation and analysis; however, it has never been revealed who was in fact in charge. One would hope that someone at DPMO is in charge.

Mr. Destatte testified to DPMO's conclusions and that the "Cuban Program" was nothing more than a program "to provide instruction in basic English to PAVN [North Vietnamese Army] personnel working with American prisoners."

I have taught English to Vietnamese, and have been tortured by the Vietnamese, and I can tell the difference between the two. One might conclude from Mr. Destatte's testimony that neither he nor Mr. Towbridge know the difference. I can also read English and understand what I read. One might also conclude that they may have a problem here too. Perhaps they should have taken basic English instruction from the Cubans.

Mr. Destatte also had the audacity to testify that the Vietnamese high-command was unaware that the Cubans were torturing American POWs, and it was stopped once they found out. However, it is crystal clear from the POW debriefings, as well as the Air Force Intelligence Analysis, that the "Cuban Program" was sanctioned by the Vietnamese. This then leads one to ask, "How did Mr. Destatte reach his conclusion?"

Mr. Destatte reached his conclusion by asking North Vietnamese communist Colonel Pham Teo, who told Destatte he was in South Viet Nam in 1967-68 and knew nothing of the "Cuban Program." However, he had heard rumors that it was an English language instruction program that had "gone awry." Mr. Destatte testified that the Vietnamese explanation "is...fully consistent with what we know about the conduct of the Cubans in question."

Evidently, Destatte chose to believe a Vietnamese communist colonel over American POWs who had been brutally tortured in the "Cuban Program" and had clearly stated in their debriefings that the Vietnamese were well aware of and participated in their torture. Destatte choses to believe a member of a draconian regime, which had systematically murdered 70-80,000 political prisoners after they took over power in Vietnam in 1975, and who had broken every agreement ever made with the U.S. and South Vietnamese governments.

What bewilders me, as it should you, is that Destatte's superiors at DPMO had the audacity to let him testify before Congress to this foolishness. This exemplifies the quality of DPMO's investigation and analysis of the "Cuban Program."

I am neither a trained investigator nor an analyst, but I do know how to research. And I have concluded that at best, DPMO's investigation and analysis of the "Cuban Program" was not up to professional standards, and DPMO's conclusions are shameful! However, they did a great job of obfuscating the issue.

Since the "Cuban Program" was sanctioned by the Vietnamese, what then was the diving force behind it?" According to POW debriefings, supported by CIA and other reports, the "Cuba Program" was part of a Hanoi medical university's "psychological study." It was conducted to obtain full compliance from the American POWs, and to force them to make propaganda statements against the American government and the war in Vietnam. The real reason for the termination of the "Cuban Program" was so "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho" could return to Cuba as planned in time to prepare a presentation for the October 18-21, 1968, communist internationale Second Symposium Against Yankee Gonocide In Vietnam. This symposium in Cuba was a continuum of the Bertrand Russel War Crimes Tribunal kangaroo court and dog-and-pony show held in Denmark the previous year.

My paper is based partially on what DPMO gave to Congressman Dornan's Committee, as well as on documents obtained from the DIA and the CIA through the Freedom of Information Act, and it is throughly referenced. I would like to submit a copy of it and the referenced material to the Committee at this time for the record.

However, I have just scratched the surface, but I found enough documents to indicate that there should be a plethora of others related to the Cuban involvement in Vietnam if they are ever declassified as two U.S. Presidents have decreed. I also recommend that this matter be thoroughly investigated by professional investigators, not DPMO analysts.

Besides evidence contrary to DPMO's stated position on the "Cuban Program," the documents I examined reveal:

the possibility that a number of American POWs from the Vietnam War had been held in Los Maristas, a secret Cuban prison run by Castro's G-2 intelligence service. The Cuban who claims to have seen them later escaped and made it to the United States, and was reportedly debriefed by the FBI;

a Cuban Official had offered the State Department to ransom some American POWs from Vietnam, but there was no follow up;
that Cubans, along with Russians, guarded a number of American POWs in Laos;

the Cubans photographed a number of American POWs in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia;

that besides the "Cuban Program," the Cubans were very heavily involved in Vietnam. They had several thousand "engineers" in Vietnam constructing, repairing and guarding the Ho Chi Minh Trail where a large number of Americans disappeared; the possibility that American POWs were "treated" in Cuban hospitals in Hanoi;

the Cubans had a permenant DGI agent assigned to the COSVN headquarters in Cambodia, the North Vietnamese command center directing the war in South Vietnam. This is a fact not found in the history books on the Vietnam War. He was assigned there on the insistance of Rauol Castro, the head of Cuba's military and the brother of the real Fidel. This fact belies Mr. Destatte's testimony that "the Soviet and Cuban governments did not successfully dictate policies or actions to the North Vietnamese government;"

two unrelated documents telling of American POWs being taken from Vietnam to Cuba; the Cubans were also actively engaged in subversive activities, infiltrating a number of communist youth into the U.S., and were funneling KGB money through Vietnamese communist agents to antiwar groups and individuals in the U.S.; as recent as 1996, the Vietnamese trained Cuban Special Forces to undertake limited attacks in the USA

Instead of hiring analyists at DPMO, DOD should hire some good professional investigators, such as former FBI or police investigators, and some people who know how to do systematic research. However, everytime DPMO gets good ones, it seems to find a way to get rid of them.

My paper raises more questions than it answers, but only history will prove me right or wrong; however, I think I am on the right track. Only through full disclosure by the U.S. government agencies, which were gathering information on the depth of Cuban involvement in the Vietnam war and with American POWs, will we know the truth.

As you can see from my document, the Cubans were heavily involved in the Vietnam War. They were in charge of building and maintaining a good portion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Recently, I was invited as a representative of the National Alliance of Families to a briefing at DPMO by its head, Bob Jones. Among things he discussed was his proposal for DPMO to sponsor a meeting between the U.S., Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos to discuss American Servicemen lost along the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I suggested to Mr. Jones that he should also invite Cuba to the conference, for they were heavily involved. He told me that I was rediculous, for the Cubans weren't involved in Vietnam. I recommended to him that he read both the material presented to Congress on the Cuban Program and Raul Valdes Vivo's book.

I was brought up with old fashoned values. My mother taught me at a young age that no matter how hard you search for the truth, you won't find it unless you want to.

We are not seeking revenge. We will leave that issue to the courts. We are also not seeking to get someone fired, we leave that up to you to judge. We are only seeking an honest accounting for the POW/MIAs. We, like every American should, only seek honest answers from our government and its representatives, and competent investigations as to the fate of the POW/MIAs so that their families might find closure to their long suffering grief.

Ignorance? Arrogance? Disinterest? Lack of caring? Incompetence? Obfuscation? I rest my case.

Respectfully Submitted

Michael D. Benge
2300 Pimmit Dr., #604-W
Falls Church, VA 22043

Ph: (703) 875-4063 (W)
(703) 698-8256 (H)


For efforts in rescuing several Americans prior to capture, he received the State Department's highest award for heroism and a second one for valor. He also received three of South Viet Nam's highest medals for civilians.

201 posted on 09/08/2004 8:02:45 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | View Replies]

To: Calpernia

Cuban War Crimes Against American POWs

During the Vietnam War*


Cuban officials, under diplomatic cover in Hanoi during the Vietnam War, brutally tortured and killed American POWs whom they beat senseless in a research program "sanctioned by the North Vietnamese."(1) This was dubbed the "Cuba Program" by the Department of Defense (DOD) and the CIA, and it involved 19 American POWs (some reposts state 20). Recent declassified secret CIA and DOD intelligence documents, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal the extent of Cuba's involvement with American POWs captured in Vietnam. A Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report states that "The objective of the interrogators was to obtain the total submission of the prisoners..."(2)

According to former POW Air Force Colonel Donald "Digger" Odell, "two POWs left behind in the camp were 'broken' but alive when he and other prisoners were released [1973 Operation Homecoming]. ... They were too severely tortured by Cuban interrogators" to be released. The Vietnamese didn't want the world to see what they had done to them."(3)

POWs released during "Operation Homecoming" in 1973 "were told not to talk about third-country interrogations. .... This thing is very sensitive with all kinds of diplomatic ramifications."(4) Hence, the torture and murder of American POWs by the Cubans was swept under the rug by the U.S. Government.

The "Cuban Program"

The "Cuban Program" was initiated around August 1967 at the Cu Loc POW camp known as "The Zoo", a former French movie studio on the southwestern edge of Hanoi. The American POWs gave their Cuban torturers the

names "Fidel," "Chico," "Pancho" and "Garcia." The Vietnamese camp commander was given the name "The Lump" because of a fatty tumor growth in the middle of his forehead.

Intelligence and debriefing reports reveal that testing "torture methods were of primary interest" of the "Cuban Program." The Cuban leader of the "Cuban Program" ["Fidel"] was described in debriefing reports as "a professional interrogator," and a second team member was described as looking like a Czech ["Chico"]. "The Cubans has (sic) the authority to order NVNS [North Vietnamese] to torture American PWs [POWs]." The Vietnamese "catered" to the Cubans.(5)

According to a 20 January 1976 deposition, Marge Van Beck of DIA/DI, Resources and Installation Division, MIA/PW Branch, states that she was told by the "Air Force that the CIA had identified FIDEL."(6) Since the CIA and the FBI has not released all documentation relevant to the "Cuban Program", there were no copies of any photographs accompanying the Defense Department's September 11, 1996, report to Congress, Cuban Program Information.(5)

Several other documents corroborate that the CIA analysts identified two Cuban military attaches, Eduardo Morjon Esteves and Luis Perez Jaen, who had backgrounds that seemed to correspond with information on "Fidel" and "Chico" supplied by returning POWs.(7) Reportedly, in 1977-78, Esteves served under diplomatic cover as a brigadier general at the United Nations in New York and no attempt was made to either arrest or expel him.(8)

However, unless the Cubans were overconfident, it is highly unlikely that those who participated in the "Cuban Program" would have used their actual names when they went to Vietnam, since it is standard practice in undercover operations to use new identities. According to an expert on Cuba, "Fidel's" profile fits that of Cuban Dr. Miguel Angel Bustamente-O'Leary, President of the Cuban Medical Association. [DPMO's compilation lists a Professor Jose Bustamante, who was the president of the Pan-American Medical Confederation.] Dr. Miguel Bustamente is said to be an expert at extracting confessions through torture and he was compared to Nazi Dr. Joseph Mengale.(9)

"Chico's" profile fits that of Major Fernando VECINO Alegret, described in two intelligence reports as being "un-Cuban in appearance makes [sic] one wonder if he was a Cuban, or a block officer (possible Czech) in Cuban uniform." "He has studied in the USSR," and "...his Spanish...does not sound like Cuban Spanish." He was active in the Rebel Youth Association (AJR) and Union of Young Communists (UYC).(5b) His background would give him a natural tie-in to the international communist youth training center and the Vietnamese interrogation center in Cuba. It would also explain the observation of and participation in the "Cuban Program" by young Vietnamese officer trainees (see below).

According to POW debriefing reports, "The Lump" told a group of POWs that the 'Cuban Program'...was a Hanoi University Psychological Study."(5c) [Also see section on Vietnamese and Soviet Bloc Research on American POWs]

The torture and murder of American POWs in Vietnam by Cubans ets an unconscionable precedent and is in direct violation of the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War that the North Vietnamese communists signed.

The Beatings

"Fidel" called one of the American POWs the "Faker". However, he wasn't faking it. He was one of the three American POWs who had already been beaten senseless by "Fidel" and his cohorts.

The sight of the prisoner stunned Bomar, he stood transfixed, trying to make himself believe that human beings could so batter another human being. The man could barely walk; he shuffled slowly, painfully. His clothes were torn to shreds. He was bleeding everywhere, terribly swollen, and a dirty, yellowish black and purple from head to toe. The man's head was down; he made no attempt to look at anyone. He had been through much more than the day's beatings. His body was ripped and torn everywhere; "hell- cuffs" appeared almost to have severed the wrists, strap marks still wound around the arms all the way to the shoulders, slivers of bamboo were embedded in the bloodied shins and there were what appeared to be tread marks from the hose across the chest, back and legs. Fidel smashed a fist into the man's face, driving him against the wall. Then he was brought to the center of the room and made to get down onto his knees. Screaming in rage, Fidel took a length of rubber hose from a guard and lashed it as hard as he could into the man's face. The prisoner did not react; he did not cry out or even blink an eye. Again and again, a dozen times, smashed the man's face with the hose. He was never released.(10)

Air Force ace Major James Kasler was also tortured by "Fidel" for days on end during June 1968. "Fidel" beat Kasler across the buttocks with a large truck fan belt until "he tore my rear end to shreds." For one three-day period, Kasler was beaten with the fan belt every hour from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. and kept awake at night. "My mouth was so bruised that I could not open my teeth for five days." After one beating, Kasler's buttocks, lower back, and legs hung in shreds. The skin had been entirely whipped away and the area was a bluish, purplish, greenish mass of bloody raw meat.(11)

DPMO's Evaluation

The "Cuban Program" was evaluated by two of the Department of Defense POW/Missing Personnel Office's (DPMO) chief analysts Robert Destatte and Chuck Towbridge. In an email to Commander Chip Beck, an intelligence officer who at the time was working at DPMO, Destatte said he had concluded that the "Cuban Program" was nothing more than a program "to provide instruction in basic English to PAVN [North Vietnamese Army] personnel working with American prisoners."(12) According to Destatte, it was an English language program that had gone awry.

Destatte also has the audacity to claim that the Vietnamese were unaware of the "Cuban Program," and it was stopped once the Vietnamese found out that "Fidel" and the others were torturing the American POWs. However, the evidence that Destatte studied in compiling the report to Congress belies his assertion. It is very clear from the POWs' debriefing reports that the camp commander, "The Lump", guards and various other Vietnamese cadre were present during torture sessions.

Destatte also professes, "The Vietnamese explanation is plausible and fully consistent with what we know about the conduct of the Cubans in question..."(12) And how had Destatte reached his conclusion? Destatte asked the North Vietnamese communists, and this is what they told him! These are the very same people who broke every agreement they made with the United States, and who systematically murdered over 80,000 political prisoners after the communist takeover of South Viet Nam in 1975. A military historian once told Commander Beck not to underestimate "dumb," and Beck said Destatte would have to be brain-dead, however, to be that dumb.(13)

It is evident that DOD's analysis of the "Cuban Program" is incomplete for it did not examine the possible link to a Hanoi University research study, nor was there any investigation of Cuba's role in maintaining the Ho Chi Minh Trail where numerous American servicemen were captured. In early 1999, DPMO's chief, Bob Jones, told members of the organizations representing the families of POW/MIAs that he had proposed a meeting among Vietnam, Laos and Cambodian officials to discuss the fate of American POW/MIAs. The author, representing the National Alliance of Families, suggested that Cuba should also be invited to participate, since they were responsible for the "Cuban Program" as well as for maintaining a good share of the Ho Chi Minh Trail where many servicemen became MIA. Jones retorted that my suggestion was ridiculous for there was no evidence that the Cubans were ever involved. ["See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil," author.]

Other Cuban Involvement With POWs

Documents reveal that Cubans not only tortured and killed a number of American POWs in Vietnam, but may have also taken several POWs to Cuba in the mid-1960s. The POWs, mostly pilots, were reportedly imprisoned in Las Maristas, a secret Cuban prison run by Castro's G-2 intelligence service. The source of this information reportedly was debriefed by the FBI; however, this debriefing report was not in DPMO's report to Congress, and no evidence has surfaced that there was any other follow up.(14)

One intelligence source reportedly interviewed "Fidel", "Chico" and "Pancho" after they returned from Hanoi to Cuba and said they claimed that their real job was to act as gate-keepers to select American POWs who could aid international communism.(16)

According to a DIA "asset", Hanoi made "a political investment in all cases where prisoners [could] be ideologically turned around in order to someday serve its designs in behalf of international communism."(17) This is corroborated by several other intelligence reports. One, a CIA briefing memo, reveals that "As of September 1967 [redacted] a great deal of proselytizing of American pilots was being carried out in an effort to try to convince them to go to other communist countries as advisors. [redacted] This was disclosed during an official Party briefing [redacted]. The North Vietnamese claimed the communist countries needed the advice of American pilots to counter any attack which the U.S. might make against the communist countries."(18) This was the same time period that the "Cuban Program" was in full operation.

DPMO's analyst Bob Destatte wrongly concluded that the "Cuban Program" was terminated by the Vietnamese in August 1968 because of "Fidel's" excesses in torturing the American POWs. This is far from the truth, for the Vietnamese communists routinely continued to torture American POWs in other camps long after the "program" was terminated.

Besides being part of a medical study linked to the University in Hanoi, Cuba was carrying out an aggressive propaganda campaign and other subversive activities against the U.S. According to the Cuban paper El Mundo, in August 1968, Professor Miguel A. D'Estafano, who headed the Cuban Solidarity with Vietnam Committee, "prolonged his stay in the DRV to complete a program with various organizations and institutions to collect extensive information that can serve as the basis for the second symposium against genocide in Vietnam..." According to POW debriefings, a Cuban (presumably D'Estafano) showed up at the Zoo during that time and "Fidel," "Chico" and "Pancho" left with him. Their return was timed so they could prepare a presentation for the communist internationale Second Symposium Against Yankee Genocide in Vietnam held in Cuba, October 18-21, 1968.(19) There, films and tapes were shown of the research on American POWs in the "Cuban Program" that served to boost the morale of the communists that the war in Vietnam was being won.(1) [Similar to the Bertrand Russell War Crimes Tribunal "kangaroo court" and "dog and pony show" held in Denmark in July 1967.(20)]

"Fidel", "Chico" and "Pancho" weren't the only Cubans who were involved with American POWs. As part of their propaganda program, Dr. Fernando Barral, a Spanish-born psychologist, interviewed Lt. Cmdr. John Sidney McCain Jr. (now a U.S. Senator) for an article published in Cuba's house-organ Granma on January 24, 1970.(21) Barral was a card-carrying communist internationale residing in Cuba and traveling on a Cuban passport.

Cuans on the Ho Chi Minh Trail

The Cubans were heavily involved in the Vietnam war. Cuba had a very large contingent of combat engineers, the Giron Brigade, that was responsible for maintaining a large section of the "Ho Chi Minh Trail;" the supply line running from North Vietnam through Laos and Cambodia to South Vietnam. The contingent was so large that Cuba had to establish a consulate in the jungle.(22)

A large number of American personnel serving in both Vietnam and Laos were either captured or killed along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and in all likelihood, many by the Cubans. One National Security Agency SigNet report states that 18 American POWs "are being detained at the Phom Thong Camp..." in Laos, and "...are being closely guarded by Soviet and Cuban personnel with Vietnamese soldiers outside the camp."(23)

Cubans and Other POWs

According to CIA documents Cuban communist party committee members, Cuban "journalists" Raul Valdes Vivo and Marta Rojas Rodriguez, "visited liberated areas of South Vietnam where they interviewed [interrogated] U.S. prisoners of war being held by the Viet Cong."(24) [Many of the American POWs held in the South Viet Nam, were in fact under the command-control of the North Vietnamese's Enemy Proselytizing Bureau, but temporarily farmed-out to Viet Cong.] Rojas told of her "interviewing" American POWS in South Viet Nam at the Bertram Russel mock war crimes tribunal in Denmark in 1967.(20) Photographs of some of the POWs, and related articles, appeared in Cuban and various other communist media. American POWs Charles Crafts, Smith, McClure, Schumann and Cook were among those interviewed and photographed by Rojas and Vivo. This leads one to ask, "Why hasn't DOD pursued questioning Cubans about the fate of American POWs?"

One POW camp holding a large number of Americans was located about 100 km from the Chinese border between Monkai and Laokai, (an area where Cuban engineers were constructing military installations after 1975). According to an intelligence source, "one day the camp just disappeared, guards and all".(25) [also see End Notes]

The disappearance of American POWs near the Cuban facilities at Monkai and Laokai wasn't an isolated incident. American POWs also disappeared in the vicinity of two other Cuban installations. One American POW camp, located at "Work Site 5" (Cong Truong 5) just north of the DMZ, was adjacent to a Cuban field hospital that Fidel Castro visited in 1972. None of the POWs held in that camp were ever released, including black American aviator Lt. Clemmie McKinney. McKinney was shot down in April 1972, approximately the same time as Castro's visit. McKinney's remains were returned on August 14, 1985. The Vietnamese claim that McKinney died in November 1972; however, "A CILHI (U.S. Army Central Identification Laboratory, Hawaii) forensic anthropologist states his opinion as to time of death as not earlier than 1975 and probably several years later."(26) Had McKinney been a guest of the real "Fidel" to be exploited by Castro's G-2 at Las Maristas and later returned to Vietnam?

Another Cuban installation was near Ba Vi, where numerous sightings of "white buffalos" [i.e., American POWs] were made by South Vietnamese undergoing "reeducation" in the North. According to one of the recently returned Vietnamese 34-A commandos, he saw 60 American POWs at the Thanh Tri Prison complex in 1969.(27) Also in the same prison complex were approximately 100 French and Moroccan POWs captured in the early 1950s. Later the French and Moroccans were transferred to the Ba Vi Prison complex near the Cuban facility. There were a small number of American POWs held for a while in a section of the Thanh Tri Prison complex, appropriately dubbed "Skidrow". However, they numbered about 20, not 60, and none had been held with French and/or Moroccan POWs.

The commando's report corroborates numerous other similar sightings; however, DPMO has made a conscious effort to discredit all of these reports--although from unrelated sources and too numerous to ignore.

202 posted on 09/08/2004 8:10:09 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Other Cuban Involvement

Several reports indicate that Cubans were piloting MIGs in aerial combat with American pilots over North Vietnam. One American advisor flying in an H-34 used a M-79 grenade launcher to shoot down a Cuban flying a biplane in Northern Laos.(28) This was the same kind of plane used in the attack against Lima Site 85--the top-secret base in Laos providing guidance for American planes in the bombing of North Vietnam.

The involvement with American POWs was just a part of Cuba's long history of commitment to assist the Vietnamese communists, and just another chapter in their role as "communist internationales" on behalf of the Soviet Union. The Cubans first showed up in Vietnam not too many years after they consolidated power on their own island in the early 1960s. Soon after, the Cubans soon began operating en masse alongside their Vietnamese brethren. They even accompanied the North Vietnamese through the gates of the South Vietnamese Presidential Palace in Saigon on April 29, 1975.(21) However, the Cuban's assistance to the North Vietnamese continued well beyond 1975.

Raul Valdes Vivo: The creditation of Raul Valdes Vivo as a journalist, however, was only a cover, for he was in fact a DGI (Cuban Intelligence) officer and a high-ranking Cuban communist party member. [Latinos often hyphenate their last name in recognization of the matrilineal side of the family. Therefore, the last name of Raul Valdes Vivo (Valdes-Vivo), may in fact be Valdes. However, he will be referred to as Vivo in this paper.] In his book, El Gran Secreto: Cubanos en el Camino Ho Chi Minh, Vivo wrote that he first met Marta Rojas in 1965 at a Cuban Communist party meeting. Vivo was the Cuban communist party representative to the IndoChinese communist party from 1965 thru 1974.(21)

Vivo claims to have established a Cuban embassy in the jungle in Vietnam in South Viet Nam in 1969. The truth is Vivo was attached to the Central Office for South Vietnam (COSVN), the central command for North Vietnam's operations in South Vietnam, which was located well inside Cambodia. Much to the chagrin of the Vietnamese, Vivo was assigned to COSVN upon the insistency of Raul Castro, Fidel's brother, who was head of the Cuban armed forces. The Vietnamese reluctantly acquiesced, since Cuba was supplying several thousand soldiers to build, maintain and guard a sizeable portion of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, and providing a large amount of other "technical" and material assistance. COSVN was in fact a front for a front. [For propaganda purposes, the North Vietnamese maintained that COSVN was the headquarters for the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam (NLF), a political arm of the Viet Cong. However, in fact, the NLF was a "front" for Hanoi, and COSVN was entirely controlled by the North Vietnamese. It was the North Vietnamese headquarters for staging and directing operations into South Vietnam.]

During a reception in Cuba for a high-ranking Vietnamese communist party official, in a loud voice, Castro chided Vivo for not inviting him to "his embassy." In fact, Castro wasn't at all chiding Vivo, for the barb was aimed at the North Vietnamese for not inviting Castro to COSVN headquarters in Cambodia. Vivo responded by telling Castro the difficulty in accessing "his embassy" after Cambodian General Lon Nol's coup d'etat 1970, indicating that Castro's safety in Cambodia could not be assured. Vivo was evidently in charge of Cuban intelligence in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos. Initially, the soviet-block subversion of Cambodia was coordinated by the Cubans out of the Cuban embassy in Phnom Penh. After General Lon Nol took over in 1970, the intelligence staff of the Cuban Embassy in Phnom Penh was moved into Hanoi along with a core of Vietnamese trained high-ranking Khmer Rouge officials to form a "Cambodian government in exile." In another section of his book, Vivo refers to himself as the Cuban Ambassador "in" Hanoi in 1971.

Later in his book, Vivo says that Cubans were with the North Vietnamese communists in 1975 when they took over Saigon, "although a modest presence." These statements are very important, for historians have yet to admit the extent of the involvement of Cuba and the other Soviet-Bloc in the directing the Vietnam War as part of the "communist internationale."

Vietnamese in Cuba

While a POW in Hanoi, I was interrogated by "The Lump" and another individual who had a Spanish accent. After learning about the "Cuban Program" upon release, I assumed the person with the Spanish accent might have been "Fidel." After my release in 1973, I identified "The Lump" in a photograph taken in Cuba shown to me by a member of a Congressional committee. In the picture, "The Lump" was with a U.S. anti-war contingent. I was told that he had been identified by intelligence agents as being responsible for funneling KGB money to the American anti-war groups, such as those that Jane Fonda led.(9)

The foreign affairs element of the Vietnamese National Liberation Front, code named "CP-72," was positioned only 90 miles off the coast of Florida during the war and their personnel worked closely with the Cuban Government in manipulating the anti-war movement in the United States. Many of the propaganda themes directed at influencing groups in the United States were developed from information gathered by "CP-72" and was fed to the Cuban interrogation experts who were involved in exploiting American POWS in Vietnam for propaganda.(29).

Also, CIA and DIA reports reveal the operation of an international communist youth training center southeast of Santiago de Cuba in the mid-and-late 1960s. The young people, many of whom were blacks and Vietnamese, were being trained for subversive operations against the United States. One intelligence source reported that many of these young people were children of French soldiers who had either defected to the Vietnamese communists during the French Indochina or were children of French forces who were POWs and still held by the Hanoi communists. Reportedly, they had been given Vietnamese wives, and the children were taken away from their parents at a very young age and sent to communist youth camps similar to those in the Soviet Union and "Hitler's Children" in Nazi Germany.(30)

According to a DIA source, their control officer was Jesus Jiminez Escobar. "The students (agents) were to be infiltrated into the United States through normal airlift channels and would be claimed by relatives on their arrival." "Their subversive activities against the United States would include sabotage in connection with race riots..."16 Another DIA source said that "the 5th contingent was infiltrated into the U.S. from Canada through Calais, Maine."17

The same source said that DIA also monitored a center in Cuba during the same period where Vietnamese were being trained by the Cubans in POW interrogation methods. "Fidel", "Chico", and the other Cubans associated with the "Cuban Program" in Hanoi in all likelihood may have been staff associated with this center. Maj. Fernando Vecino Alegret, "Chico", has an extensive background in youth movements. This presumption is strengthened by the debriefing reports of American POWs who were in the "Cuban Program." They reported that "a large number of VN officer trainees" came to the camp, and the Cubans "Conducted interrogation training, using [American] POWs."[DPMO] The trainees were estimated to be approximately 20 years of age. One would logically assume that this was in-service training of Vietnamese graduates from the training camp in Cuba.

Vietnamese and Soviet Bloc Research on American POWs

The Cubans used standard scientific methologies in selecting American POWs for the "Cuban Program;" i.e., random selection with a control group. Everett Alvarez was initially interviewed for the "Program" but was disqualified purportedly because he was of Spanish decent and presumed to speak Spanish.(5)

A 1975 secret CIA counterintelligence study states that the Medical Office of Hanoi's Ministry of Public Security (MPSMO) was responsible for "preparing studies and performing research on the most effective Soviet, French, communist Chinese and other...techniques..." of extracting information from POWs. The MPSMO "...supervised the use of torture and the use of drugs to induce [American] prisoners to cooperate." MPSMO's functions also "...included working with Soviet and Communist Chinese intelligence advisors who were qualified in the use of medical techniques for intelligence purposes. .... The Soviets and Chinese...were... interested in research studies on the reactions of American prisoners to various psychological and medical techniques..."(32)

The "Cuban Program" in Vietnam parallels that of a similar Soviet program in Korea according to congressional testimony on September 17, 1996 by General Jan Sejana, the highest ranking defector from the Soviet Block during the "Cold War."(33) After defecting, Sejana worked for years as a top-secret analyst for the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency. According to Gen. Sejana,"Americans were used to test physiological and psychological endurance and various mind control drugs. Moscow ordered Czechoslovakia to build a hospital in North Korea for the experiments [on American POWs] there." As in North Korean, Soviet, East German, Czechoslovakian and Cuban "medical specialists" were assigned to the top-secret "Hospital 198" in Hanoi where American POWs were believed to have been taken for "treatment".(34) This would have been the hospital where at least one of the American POWs in the "Cuban Program" was taken for shock treatment.[35]

In the 1950s and early 1960s, Gen. Sejana had been in charge of communist Czechoslovakia's Defense Council Secretariat, and from 1964 on, First Secretary at the Ministry of Defense. In his various official capacities, he was constantly meeting with Soviet officials, receiving instructions, and relaying those instructions to various Czech agencies and departments. "At the beginning of the Korean War, we received directions from Moscow to build a military hospital in North Korea. ..... The Top Secret purpose of the hospital was to experiment on American and South Korean POWs. .... It was very important to the Soviet plans because they believed it was essential to understand the manner in which different drugs...affected different races and people who had been brought up differently; for example on better diets. .... Because America was the main enemy, American POWs were the most highly valued experimental subjects. .... I want to point out that the same things happened in Vietnam and Laos during the Vietnam War. The only difference is the operation in Vietnam was better planned and more American POWs were used, both in Vietnam and Laos and in the Soviet Union."

Several sets of remains of American servicemen repatriated from Vietnam evidenced that they were of POWs who had suffered severe and depraved conditions long after the purported release of all POWs in 1973. The skull of one had been sawn open, evidence of an autopsy as part of an experiment common to Soviet-style research on the affect of certain drugs on the brain.(36)

203 posted on 09/08/2004 8:13:12 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Cuba's End Game in Vietnam

According to a DIA "asset", after the signing of the cease-fire on January 21, 1973, 4,000 Cuban army engineers arrived in Hanoi. They helped rebuild the Phuc Yen/Da Phuc Airfield North of Hanoi where, according to intelligence reports, American POWs were used as technicians after the war. Later, the Cubans disappeared into the mountains of the north and constructed and eqvuipped secret bases about 100 km from the Chinese border between Monkai and Laokai. Here, the Soviets equipped the bases with mobile launch ramps, medium-range strategic missiles, possibly with tactical nuclear warheads, capable of hitting population centers in the southern part of China.(17) This is the same area where the above mentioned POW camp containing American prisoners "disappeared, guards and all."(25)

Units of this same Cuban engineering contingent were building the airfield in Grenada when Americans overran the island. U.S. military intelligence captured reams of documents and photographs relating to this unit's operations in Vietnam. However, no evidence has surfaced that these documents were ever analyzed for information on POWs by DPMO or any intelligence agency.

In the spirit of communist solidarity, Hanoi reciprocated for Cuba's assistance during the Vietnam war by sending U.S. arms and ammunition, captured in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, to South America to fuel the "revolution" directed by the Cubans there. As agents of the Soviets, and continuing their belief in the communist internationale, the Cuban government expanded its role in the communist internationale.

The Cubans sent troops to Angola. In 1975, Vivo again surfaces in Angola posing as a journalist. Vivo "interviewed" western mercenaries who were put on trail in a "kangaroo court" in yet another slanted propaganda coup against the U.S. One of the mercenaries was an American who's body has yet to be recovered.(13)

Evidently, Cuba's partnership with Vietnam in subversive activities against the U.S. has continued. In 1996, Jane's Defense Weekly reported that "Vietnam has been training Cuban Special Forces troops to undertake limited attacks in the USA... .... Havana's strategy in pursuing such training is to attack the staging and supply areas for U.S. forces preparing to invade Cuba. .... The training program is focused on seaborne and underwater operations, roughly comparable to those assigned to U.S. Navy Seals. .... The political objective would be to bring the reality of warfare to the American public and so exert domestic pressure on Washington."(37)

Vietnam and Cuba are closely linked by their belief in exporting international communism. Hanoi praised Cuba for its shootdown of two American planes and denounced the Helms-Burton Bill as "Insolent!" Hanoi recently reaffirmed the unswerving solidarity of the communist party, the government and people of Vietnam with the Cuban revolution.(38)


The behavior of "Fidel", "Chico" and "Pancho" in the torture and murder of Americans is beyond the pale and is clearly in violation of the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of Prisoners of War, which North Vietnam signed. Allowing these Cubans to go unpunished sets an ugly precedent, and adds to America's growing "paper tiger" image. Although the Cubans' crimes are smaller in number, they are no less than some of the war criminals that are being tried in Bosnia.

If the communist regime in Hanoi was fully cooperating in resolving the POW/MIA issue as President Clinton, Senator John McCain, and Ambassador Pete Peterson profess, the Vietnamese communists would have turned over to the U.S. the names of the Cubans who tortured and killed American POWs in the "Cuban Program." Full cooperation by the communist government in Hanoi includes the full disclosure of the true identities and roles of these Cuban "diplomats", who were "advisors" to the Hanoi prison system, and were directly responsible for the murder, torture, and severe disablement of American POWs.

Although the "Cuban Program" was reviewed by the Department of Defense's Prisoner of War and Missing in Action Office (DPMO), its analysis was incomplete. DPMO's chief analyst Robert Destatte's claims that the "Vietnamese's story is plausible and fully consistent with what DPMO knows about the conduct of the Cubans in question" are ludicrous and grossly incompetent. DPMO's analysis of the "Cuban Program" is glaringly incomplete, indicating either incompetence, negligence, or an attempt at political correctness in keeping with our present policy toward Cuba.

DPMO did not thoroughly, nor competently, analyze the documentation they presented to Congress, and other related material including:

POW debriefing reports containing the statements by the camp commander that the 'Cuban Program' "was a Hanoi University Psychological Study."

POW debriefing reportings that clearly state that the Vietnamese camp commander ("The Lump"), cadre and guardswere well aware of, and often participated in, the torture.

the CIA report, North Viet-Nam: The Responsibilities of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam Intelligence and Security Services in the Exploitation of American Prisoners of War.

DIA reports on the training of Vietnamese prison interrogators by the Cubans.

no mention of the interviews and photographs made by Cuban journalists cited in documentation, and no there is no indication that it attempted to pursue the Cuban connection.

obtaining information from FBI files relating to the "Cuban Program," reports by Cuban refugees of American POWs from Vietnam being held in Cuba, or electronic and other surveillance of Eduardo Morjon Esteves during his "service" at the United Nations.

no attempt to obtain the intelligence information relating to their operations in Vietnam garnered from the seizure documents by Army intelligence from the Cuban engineers building the airfield in Granada during the U.S. incursion of that island.

End Note:

DPMO maintains, as did the defunct Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, that there is no conclusive evidence that American POWs were left behind in Vietnam after "Operation Homecoming" in March 1973. However, eyewitness reports, such as Col. Odell's, and numerous intelligence documents, belie these claims. Pentagon officials weren't the only ones who wanted to keep this secret, and it wasn't only because of third-country diplomatic ramifications. The Nixon Administration, and chief negotiator Henry Kissinger, in particular, wanted to hide the fact that POWs had been left behind in their haste to close the chapter on the Vietnam War.

There are numerous intelligence reports of a group of American POWs seen north of Hanoi, who were suffering from severe war wounds or mental disorders. They were still being held because the communists feared their release would have an unfavorable impact on public opinion. It is very likely that these POWs are the ones who simply disappeared at Monkai and Laokai, for conspicuously absent from the Operation Homecoming release in 1973 were POWs suffering from severe war wounds (amputees) and mental illnesses.

An abnormal, disproportionate number of Americans captured in Laos were never released. Although the CIA has acknowledged that approximately 600 men are missing in action in Laos, given the nature of the "Secret War," it is reasonable to presume that the number could be much higher. The fact that out of the 600 acknowledged missing in Laos, only 10 persons survived is unbelievable. Only 10 were released. When the North Vietnamese communists negotiated the treaty to end the IndoChina War with the French in 1954, they never acknowledged the capture of POWs in Laos. A 1969 RAND report warned that when the U.S. negotiated with the dogmatic Vietnamese communists, they would most likely again deny that they captured any American POWs in Laos. U.S. intelligence showed that over 82% of American losses in Laos were in areas under total control of the North Vietnamese.

American POWs captured in Laos were likely candidates for "transfer" to other Soviet Bloc countries, such as Cuba, since the Vietnamese considered them as "free commodities."

Much of DOD's analysis of POW camps and evaluations of live sighting reports are based on the time-frame that the camps were occupied by POWs who returned in 1973. Therefore, if a live sighting pertains to a period of time that does not correspond to the time it was occupied by returned POWs, it is most often disregarded or debunked. Also, the analysts often failed to take into consideration the fact that many of these camps were vast complexes with annexes often hundreds of kilometers apart that have the same name as the main camp. An excellent example is the Son Tay POW camps, one north of Hanoi and the other south of Hanoi. Thus, if a live sighting report correlates to the name of a camp but the coordinates are different from the main camp, the live sighting may be discounted. This is what happened in the case of most of the Thanh Tri complex and Ba Vi Prison live sighting reports.

DPMO analysts, and DOD's Joint Task Force-Full Accounting (which conducts on-the-ground investigation of live sighting reports in Vietnam), discredits most live sighting reports by providing the names of the sources to the Vietnamese communist secret services weeks before interviews--a violation of good intelligence procedures, who subsequently disappear or are coerced; or by simply discrediting the sources because they had been political prisoners. However, DPMO's Bob Destatte uses these same sources (political prisoners) to vilify "Bobby" Garwood, a detainee who was courtmartialed for collaboration with the Vietnamese communists and reported live sightings of Americans in Vietnam. If many of the reports are "triangulated," several live-sightings from unrelated sources are very similar--too much so to be mere coincidence (e.g., "white buffalos").

For some unfathomable reason, DOD sent pilots, who had worked in top-secret projects such as the atomic energy program, on tactical bombing missions over North Vietnam only to be shot down and captured. The loss of a great many planes over North Vietnam could have been easily avoided. According to National Security Council advisor William Stearman (1971-76 & 1981-93), "One of the untold scandals of the Vietnam War was the refusal of battleship foes [i.e., within the Pentagon] to follow an expert panel's advice and deploy them to Vietnam until it was too late. Of all the targets struck by air in North Vietnam, with a loss of 1,067 aircraft and air crews, 80 percent could have been taken out by a battleship's 16-inch guns without endangering American lives or aircraft."(39)

The loss of pilots was further exacerbated by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's Dr. Strangelove-like obsession of directing targets to be bombed at the same time every day. To some, it seemed as if DOD, led by McNamara, was intentionally aiding the communists by providing them with some of our best and brightest military minds [e.g., one F-111 pilot was shot down over North Vietnam shortly after leaving the Gemini space program.] Concurrently the Soviet equivalent to the Gemini program made quantum leaps over the next two years in the area of the F-111 pilot's specialty. An F-111 capsule was found in a Russian museum by U.S. investigators. There are several other similar examples of vast improvement in communist technologies after the capture of these pilots. According to DIA's "asset", the American POWs were "a gold mine of information to brief ... specialists in the technologies used by the enemy."

Michael D. Benge*
2300 Pimmit Drive, #604-W
Falls Church, VA 22043
Tel: (703) 698-8256 (H)
(202) 712-4043 (W)

October 4, 1999

*The author spent 11 years in Vietnam, over five years as a prisoner of war--1968-73, and is a diligent follower of the affairs of the region. While serving as a civilian Foreign Service Officer, he was captured in South Vietnam by the North Vietnamese, and held in numerous camps in South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and North Vietnam. He spent 27 months in solitary confinement and one year in a "black box." For efforts in rescuing several Americans before being captured, he received the Department of State's highest award for heroism and a second one for valor.

204 posted on 09/08/2004 8:16:59 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

The blood of tens of thousands is on John Kerry's hands...and yet he pretends our hatred of him is political.

205 posted on 09/08/2004 9:29:37 AM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: cake_crumb

The MacNeil/Lehrer Report -- January 21, 1977

Just a day after Jimmy Carter's inaguration, he followed through on a contentious campaign promise, granting a presidential pardon to those who had avoided the draft during the Vietnam war by either not registering or traveling abroad.

The pardon meant the government was giving up forever the right to prosecute what the administration said were hundreds of thousands of draft-dodgers.

Some in veterans' groups, like Tip Marlow of the Veterans of Foreign Wars organization, said Carter did too much by allowing those who evaded the draft to come home without fear of prosecution.

"We were very displeased with the pardon," Marlow said. "We feel that there is a better way for people who have broken laws to come back into the country, and that's though one of the pillars of the formation of our nation -- and that is our present system of justice."

Meanwhile, many in amnesty groups say that Carter's pardon did too little. They pointed out that the president did not include deserters -- those who served in the war and left before their tour was completed -- or soldiers who recieved a less-than-honorable discharge. Civilian protesters, selective service employees and those who initiated any act of violence also were not covered in the pardon.

Louise Ransom, affiliate director of Americans for Amnesty, said she believed the problems with the draft resulted from the way it was conducted.

"There seems to be a myth that because you once went into the army, there's some kind of esprit that you have accepted or believed in," Ransom said. "Well the truth of the matter is that so many of the draft-eligible young men legally avoided the draft that ... all the services took their people predominantly from poor and minority people in this country -- took them right out of high school before they had the opportunity to even examine whether they were conscientious objectors."

Though not all of the groups calling for amnesty received it, Rep. Elizabeth Holtzman (D-NY) said Carter's pardon was a good first step toward healing the war's wounds.

"I'm pleased that the pardon was issued, I'm pleased that it was done on the first day [of Carter's administration] and I'm pleased that President Carter kept a commitment that he made very clear to the American people," Holtzman said. "I would have liked to have seen it broader, I would like to have seen it extend to some of the people who are clearly not covered and whose families will continue to be separated from them ... but I don't think President Carter has closed the door on this category of people."

Military historian Robert Alotta linked the problems with the Vietnam-era draft with those the U.S. saw in its other armed conflicts.

"In the study of the wars the U.S. has been in," he said, "I cannot label one as a popular war -- one that had everyone's support."

Vietnam's gradual evolution, Alotta said, made it seem to some that "we were involved in a war that's not the United States' war."

206 posted on 09/08/2004 10:51:23 AM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: nopardons; Calpernia; All
Thank you, if you want the type of stuff that I seem to find, then check out Calpernia's thread on Terror files, we
have collected many things there.

I put several posts there last night, that were borderline for this thread.

#235 "who does Bill Clinton work for?" I found interesting.

some of the posts around that number, show that there were
problems with Russia and Chechnya when Bush took office in

Join us at the Terror files thread, it is a place to discuss
the real finds, that fit in between the other threads.

We have let it lapse a little, but have not and will not abandon the thread.
207 posted on 09/08/2004 11:05:59 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

Thank you VERY much...for this info and all of the hard work you are doing digging up this info.

208 posted on 09/08/2004 4:35:18 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons; Calpernia

The 2nd external link is interesting, I cannot check them all, as I have limited vision, so have to hit and run.

This came from a simple general search of google, about page 33.

Google for:

bill clinton 1969

I did find one hint that Bills free - secret trip for training was to Checslovokia (sp?) in 1968/69.

I have run across this website before, but don't have any idea as to who put it up.......

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Anthony Lake

Anthony Lake is esteemed to be a co-founder of both the Newmarket
Company LLC and Intellibridge, Newmarket's successor. He is
currently Principal at Intellibridge.[1]

Lake is a "Distinguished Professor in the Practice of Diplomacy at the
Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University.
He served during 1993-1997 as Assistant to the President for National
Security Affairs."[2]

"President William Jefferson Clinton said of Anthony Lake’s service as
National Security Advisor, 'In moments of crisis, in times of triumph,
he has always been at my side.' As the point man of America’s foreign
policy team, Dr. Lake strategized and implemented some of the most
pressing foreign policy issues our country has faced since the end of
the Cold War. Dr. Lake guided the United States through such
geopolitical hot spots as Bosnia, North Korea, Haiti, Iraq, Somalia and
China while extending the reach of democracy throughout the

Lake also served as a Senior Foreign Policy Advisor to the
Clinton/Gore campaign in 1991-1992. He was Five College Professor
of International Relations at Amherst and Mount Holyoke colleges

"After work with the Muskie Campaign, the Carnegie Endowment and
International Voluntary Services, Mr. Lake returned to the State
Department in 1977 to serve as Director of Policy Planning for
President Carter, a position he held until 1981."[4]

"Lake joined the State Department in 1962, where he served until
1970 as a Foreign Service Officer. His State Department career
included assignments as U.S. Vice Consul in Saigon (1963), U.S. Vice
Consul in Hue (1964-65) and Special Assistant to the Assistant to the
President for National Security Affairs (1969-1970)."[5]

In 1961, "Lake received an A.B. degree, magna cum laude from
Harvard College. He read international economics at Trinity College,
Cambridge and went on to receive his Ph.D. from the Woodrow Wilson
School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University in

Taken from Anthony Lake's biography with the Harry Walker

Profile of Anthony Lake By Paul Malamud, USIA Staff Writer

Washington -- President-elect William Jefferson Clinton's choice for
White House national security adviser -- one of the most important
foreign policy positions in the U.S. government -- brings considerable
experience to the job. Fifty-three-year old Anthony Lake first entered
the U.S. Foreign Service in 1962 and has been active in foreign policy
circles since then.

Like Clinton, Lake is part of the idealistic generation shaped by the
John Fitzgerald Kennedy presidency of the early 1960's, as well as by
the war in Vietnam. Lake's idealism came to the fore when he
resigned his job as an assistant to Henry Kissinger in 1970 in order to
protest the Richard M. Nixon administration's extension of Vietnam
war combat into Cambodia.

However, Lake's extensive State Department experience and his
considerable scholarly involvement in international affairs should also
help him bring a hard-nosed appreciation of the realities of power to
the job.

Born in 1939 in New York City, Lake received his bachelor's degree
from Harvard and studied economics at Cambridge University in
England for two years. He has received a doctoral degree from the
Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at

In 1962, Lake joined the Foreign Service, and was posted to Vietnam,
where he became a special assistant to then-ambassador Henry Cabot
Lodge. Singled out early for his talent, Lake rose quickly to become an
aide to Secretary of State Kissinger in 1969, accompanying the
secretary on his first secret meeting with North Vietnamese
negotiators in Paris. In 1970, he had a falling out with Kissinger over
the Nixon administration's extension of the war to Cambodia and later
wrote a book critical of Kissinger's approach to Africa.

In 1977, Lake became head of the State Department's policy planning
operation in the administration of Jimmy Carter. In that position, he
reported directly to Secretary of State Cyrus Vance and was witness to
the bureaucratic maneuvering that went on between Vance and
Carter's national security adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski.

In 1981, when Ronald Reagan became president, Lake withdrew into
academia, becoming a professor at Amherst College in Massachusetts.
In 1984, he moved to Mount Holyoke College, where he has taught
courses in the Vietnam War, Third World revolutions, and American
foreign policy. During the 1992 presidential campaign, he was one of
candidate Clinton's chief foreign policy advisers. (Clinton and Lake
had worked together in the 1972 presidential campaign of George
McGovern.) Lake is also an old friend of Warren Christopher,
Clinton's choice for secretary of state.

Lake's published works include "The 'Tar Baby' Option: American
Policy Toward Southern Rhodesia," (1976); "Third World Radical
Regimes: U.S. Policy Under Carter and Reagan," (1985); and
"Somoza Falling: A Case Study of Washington at Work," (1990). In
addition, he helped found the influential journal "Foreign Policy."

Lake has been referred to in the press as a "creative and imaginative
thinker." He is known as a skillful bureaucratic conciliator and is
thought to favor a strong United Nations as a multilateral vehicle for
solving international problems.


Board Member, U.S. Fund for UNICEF
Board Member, Marshall Legacy Institute
Board Member, International Committee of the Red Cross
Board Member, Carnegie Council on Ethics and International
Board Member, America Abroad
Board Member, Freedom House
Trustee, St. Mary’s College of Maryland

External Links

Walter Pincus and Thomas W. Lippman, Intelligence Agency
Should Like the Cut of Lake's Cloak, The Washington Post,
December 6, 1996.
F.R. Duplantier, Anthony Lake Is Wrong Man for Job. Knowing that
both the CIA and the FBI were infiltrated by Russian spies, why on
earth would President Bill Clinton name someone like Anthony
Lake to be the new director of Central Intelligence?, America's
Future, February 9, 1997.
CIA Director-Designate Lake Claims: "Russian Missiles No Longer
Target American Cities", American Foreign Policy Council,
Washington, D.C.: Foreign Policy Alert, No. 35, March 4, 1997.
Senate Testimony by CIA Director-Designate Lake. Testimony
before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, March 11,
Shields & Gigot on Lake, PBS Online NewsHour, March 18, 1997.
William Norman Grigg, The Ordeal of Anthony Lake. Clinton's CIA
nominee bowed out before his leftist past was exposed, The New
American, April 14, 1997.

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209 posted on 09/08/2004 6:14:21 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

You're a marvel! Thanks for all you do! I'm saving it all and my files runneth over. LOL

210 posted on 09/08/2004 6:34:22 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: nopardons; Calpernia

Here he is in /near Prague.

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The Clintons Terrorist Ties

In his FrontPage Magazine article Andrew Alexander’s Lies About the
Cold War, Jamie Glazov speaks of the Soviet regime’s aggressive and
expansionist designs against the West in the post-WWII period, and
how de-classified Soviet sources prove that they had extensively
infiltrated their agents into Western society.

"...the Venona transcripts are thousands of Soviet intelligence
messages that were intercepted and decoded over four decades by
the FBI and the NSA (National Security Agency). Released over the
past few years, these files prove that there was a large-scale
Communist penetration of the U.S. government, and that Communist
spies passed on valuable information to the KGB.

"The deciphered Venona cables confirm that the American Communist
Party successfully established secret caucuses in government agencies
throughout the 1930s and 1940s. The cables prove that 349 Americans
had covert ties to Soviet intelligence -– much as Joseph McCarthy had
charged. They also indicate that Alger Hiss, who was accused in 1949
of spying for the Soviets, did leak material – even though he denied
his guilt. On top of this, the number 349 is clearly a low estimate,
because out of 25,000 intercepted telegrams, only 2,900 were

"McCarthy, therefore, for all of his flaws, had every legitimate reason
to ask the famous question: 'Are you or have you ever been a member
of the Communist Party?' That’s because the American Communist
Party was doing severe damage to U.S. security interests, and it was
financed and run entirely by Moscow."

Why some of us fear Clinton?

"A visiting professor was the speaker. He gave a rousing talk on
overthrowing the 'dictatorship of the bourgeoisie' in America. How
would this be accomplished? By taking over the Democratic Party
through its left wing. The speaker said it was possible to elect a
stealth socialist president, who would effect a peaceful transition to

"We talked about Marxism and the idea of changing the system. Then,
suddenly, my professor said: 'We have such high hopes for this young
Arkansas governor, Bill Clinton.'"

" order to win Americans over to socialist ways of thinking, you
need to create a new, euphemistic language -- a kind of linguistic
deception. Shearer also talked about taking over the Democratic Party
through its left wing and electing a stealth socialist president."

"Marxist ideologues have killed over 100 million innocent people in the
twentieth century. The Nazis killed only a fraction of this."

"Why is it, then, that the Democratic Party is soft on Marxism? Why
does it tolerate so many fellow-travelers and disciples of the hard

"Seven months ago an intelligence professional, whose credentials are
impeccable, told me something quite alarming. He told of a taped
conversion between two Czech Communist officials. They were
discussing a young American college student -- Bill Clinton -- who
was then visiting Prague. They mentioned that he was expected to
attend a meeting at a certain place which was reserved for the
recruitment of Communist bloc agents."

Bill Clinton Picked To Be a Stealth Socialist President

"Bill Clinton was a leader and organizer of ant-Vietnam War rallies,
thus identifying himself as siding with the Viet Cong against America.
As we were told during the 1992 Presidential Campaign, Bill Clinton
spent three weeks in December, 1969, as a visitor to the Kremlin,
courtesy of the infamous and bloody KGB."

Former FBI agent Gary Aldrich, in his book "Unlimited Access"
"...recounted how very Marxist Hillary Rodham was during her college
days. She was known as Yale's foremost Communist while she was
studying law there."

"During the first Clinton Inauguration, Secret Service agents were
shocked to see that several members of the Clinton Transition Team
were sporting red Lenin lapel pins and were carrying copies of
Chairman Mao's Red Book!"

According to Aldrich, the Clintons orchestrated a wholesale breakdown
of America’s national security apparatus - not just the FBI but also the
CIA, National Security Council, Department of Justice, Customs and
every other federal law enforcement agency. The Clintons had sinister
motives, and Hillary was the mastermind of the slow train wreck over
eight years to purposefully weaken America’s national security. Their
blatant disregard of national security procedures, from gay sex in the
White House to acceptance of drug users, made the U. S. government
weak and vulnerable.

"Hillary and Bill, as well as Al Gore, were absolutely paranoid about
their political opponents, something Aldrich had never witnessed in
previous administrations, which were more worried about foreign

"Diversity policies and politically correct silliness became the main
objectives of the White House and FBI."

Emerson: Clintons Courted Pro-Terror Islamic Militants

"The fact is President Clinton and his wife openly welcomed and
embraced militant Islamic groups to the White House routinely for five

During the Clinton years, Arafat enjoyed unparalleled Oval Office
access, visiting the White House more often than any other foreign

Fund raisers kept secret from the press with groups known for their
pronounced pro-terrorist sympathies, including one $50,000 affair at
the Washington, D.C., home of Yasser Arafat crony Hani Masri.

A $1,000 donation from Abdurahman Alamoudi, an official with the
American Muslim Council, who was feted by the Clintons and later
boasted, "We are the ones who went to the White House and
defended what is called Hamas."

There was " particularly suspicious Washington, D.C., fundraiser
that Mrs. Clinton's 2000 Senate campaign had tried to conceal from
the press.

"The May 2000 event, held at the mansion of Yasser Arafat crony Hani
Masri, raised $50,000..."

Bin Laden-gate Witness Dares Dems: Depose Me on Clinton 9-11

According to Mansoor Ijaz, "The man who negotiated a deal for Osama
bin Laden's extradition to the United States six years ago..."

"The former Clinton negotiator described the missed opportunity to
get bin Laden and fingered former National Security Advisor Sandy
Berger and former Attorney General Janet Reno as having key roles in
the deadly foul-up.

Bin Laden-gate Accuser: Ex-Clinton Officials Trying to Silence Me

"...the Clinton administration turned down three separate offers to
extradite Osama bin Laden to the U.S. during the late 1990s."

"...Ijaz also charged that Clinton officials deliberately went out of
their way to stifle FBI anti-terrorism probes.

"The FBI, in 1996 and 1997, had their efforts to look at terrorism data
and deal with the bin Laden issue overruled every single time by the
State Department, by Susan Rice and her cronies, who were hell-bent
on destroying the Sudan..."

According to the New York Post's Deborah Orin, Clinton said terrorist
kingpin bin Laden and his murderous underlings "...are good, they are

In December 2001, federal agents seized the assets of The Holy Land
Foundation, which bills itself as the nation's largest Muslim charity,
after announcing it had been caught funneling funds to the notorious
Palestinaian terrorist group Hamas.

But, according to U.S. News & World Report's "Washington Whispers":

"FBI veterans tell our David E. Kaplan that they were ready to move
on the group back in 1997 but were stopped by top officials at Justice
and the Clinton White House."

Iran-Contra All Over Again

The Times of London published a March 24 story with the headline:
"Drug Money Linked to the Kosovo Rebels."

"The Kosovo Liberation Army, which has won the support of the West
for its guerrilla struggle against the heavy armor of the Serbs, is a
Marxist-led force funded by dubious sources, including drug money,"
The Times reported.

"Then there's a recent report in the John Birch Society's New
American magazine. Writer William Norman Grigg claims that the KLA
is closely allied with Osama bin Laden..."

Propaganda vs. News

"The Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), led by Maoists and supported by
Albanian heroin traffickers, had become a well-armed terrorist group
comparable to the Vietcong in South Vietnam."

Milosevic and the Impeachment of President Clinton, Part 2

"The KLA had been engaged in prototypical Islamic terrorism and
guerrilla war, aimed at the 'liberation' of Kosovo.

"In the 1980s, the Albanian Islamic-revolutionary militants had
already been looking forward to 'Greater Albania,' including 'western
Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo
and Albania itself.' (12) But in the 1990s, it was all a 'national
liberation movement' to the U.S. State Department.

"In 2001, the U.S. State Department even referred to the ubiquitous
diabolical bin Laden and al-Qaeda in the KLA as well. But before Sept.
11, 2001, the phrase 'Islamic terrorism' was virtually unknown in the
United States, and President Clinton's State Department perceived
Yugoslavia as an outdated colonial empire, the Serbs as the
Europeans, Christians and hence colonialists, and the Moslems as
oppressed victims of colonialism, fighting for their liberation - hence
the Kosovo Liberation Army.

"The KLA killed not only Serbs but also 'Albanian collaborators,'
including women and children.

"In August 1995, the Clinton administration supported the Croatian
army's expulsion of up to half a million Serbs from Krajina. Ethnic
cleansing? A crime against humanity?

"Oh, no! Quite the contrary! That was a heroic struggle of victims of
colonialism for their liberation from the colonialists."

And what is the historic significance of Kosovo to the Christians and
Muslims who live in the region? Who are the Serbs of Kosovo, and
their relationship to the Muslims? Are they really "colonialists" who
conquered and victimized the poor, downtrodden Muslims of the
region? The truth is something very different.


"The Turkish invasion of Europe seemed unstoppable as they swept
over everything in their path with fire and sword. Until they reached
the Kosovo Plain."

The Ethnic Cleansing Clinton Approved and Ted Turner: Buffoon or

"...Along with Senator Joseph Lieberman, who now supports the
arming of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), Dole [the then Senate
majority leader who became the Republican candidate for president a
year later] was a big supporter of breaking the United Nations arms
embargo of the former Yugoslavia by arming the Bosnian Muslims
against the Serbs. Although the Clinton administration claimed to be
opposed to this scheme, it was later proven and acknowledged that
the Clinton administration approved Iranian arms shipments through
Croatia to the Bosnian Muslims.

"Actually, NATO's aggression, provoked by the KLA, may yet lead to
an Islamic-fundamentalist Greater Albania, incorporating all territories
where Albanians live and pushing global Islamic terrorism into the
heart of Europe.

"On Sept. 11, 2001, Milosevic was kept in prison without bail as the
Hitler of today, guilty only of having tried to stamp out the KLA as part
of global Islamic terrorism. And here the United States was attacked
by Islamic terrorism for the struggle against which Milosevic had been
indicted as the Hitler of today, abducted for $1 billion, and kept in
prison without bail.

"But the good news? President Clinton got rid of the impeachment, all
the skeletons were put safely back into his closet, and it all seems to
have happened a century or a millennium ago."

Clinton's Balkan Refugee Secret

"What the Vice President and the reporters who covered his refugee
announcement failed to mention is this: the 20,000 Albanian Kosovars
would be just the latest Balkan influx to hit American shores since the
U.S. became embroiled in that European conflict. In fact, since the
mid-90's, America has resettled over 80,000 displaced persons from
the region, mainly Bosnian Muslims, primarily to the American

"Moreover, America's largest meat processing company, which just
happens to have a curious link to Clinton-friendly Tyson Foods, has
done very well by the deluge of hardworking Balkan refugees willing to
take their dangerous non-union jobs."

The Tale of an American Terrorist Network

"The Saudi relationship is so sensitive that, for more than a decade,
federal prosecutors and counter-terrorist agents have been ordered to
shut down their investigations for reasons of foreign policy."

"Federal agents in Tampa, who had known about the Saudi-Sami
Al-Arian connection since 1990, were ordered to drop the investigation
in 1995. The Saudi influence buying machine had effectively shut down
any threat of criminal prosecution."

"...the American public may finally begin to learn why the Saudi-Sami
Al-Arian terror networks went untouched for so long. It wasn’t an
intelligence failure, it was a foreign policy failure. The orders were not
to embarrass the Saudi government. Year after year, the cover-up
orders came from the State Department and the White House. The
CIA, the FBI and the Justice Department just did what they were told."

Turning the Tables on Oklahoma City

As the nation tried to figure out "whodunit," the political left already
had an answer, and no amount of facts would change it: "The killer
was 'the political right.' "

"...a few dozen hate-driven conservative talk radio show hosts who
inspired the crime."

Said President Clinton of these damnable talk radio hosts: "[They
are] purveyors of hate and division ... [they] leave the impression, by
their very words, that violence is acceptable."

Just as guilty, Clinton said, are those who, Lincoln-like, "believe the
greatest threat to freedom comes from" within, or who, Jefferson-like,
say "nuts" to trusting in men and deem it their patriotic duty to be
government watchdogs.

"How dare you call yourselves patriots!" President Clinton fumed at
Michigan State University.

Other co-conspirators whom the left indicted included anti-globalists,
homeschoolers, fundamentalist Christians, conspiracy theorists, gun
owners, income tax opponents, land rights activists, constitutionalists,
John Birchers - and the Republican Party, for tolerating all of the

President Clinton, fresh from his Josef Stalin victory party, invoked
Stalinist rhetoric in Montana. Real patriots don't allow citizens to
criticize the federal government, he suggested. "When you hear
someone doing it, you ought to stand up and double up your fist and
stick it in the sky and shout them down."

evidence mounts that Iraqi terrorists - not the political right - ordered
the hit on Oklahoma City, and that the Clinton administration likely
covered it up.

Additional evidence obtained under the Freedom of Information Act
reveals Interpol's efforts to apprehend two additional Oklahoma City
bombing suspects and information in the agency's files associating
Ramzi Youssef with the attack.

The written and verbal confession of Abdul Hakim Murad, obtained by
the FBI three months after the Murrah building bombing, that Ramzi
Youssef's "liberation army" was responsible for the bombing.

Pentagon assertions that McVeigh was an Iraqi agent and had
collected Iraqi telephone numbers prior to his arrest.

A March 1998 Timothy McVeigh-copyrighted "Essay on Hypocrisy,"
which defended Iraq's right to "stockpile chemical or biological
weapons" and returned again and again to the topic of Iraq.

Report: 9-11 Plotter Linked to OKC Bombing

"An al-Qaeda conspirator who was involved in a plot investigators now
say was an early blueprint for the 9-11 attacks had also claimed credit
for the Oklahoma City bombing seven years ago, according to an FBI
302 witness statement revealed by Insight Magazine on Monday."

Remember "John Doe #2"? Very quickly after it was speculated that
he was of Middle Eastern descent, the FBI and media lost interest in
him, and it all became the fault of "Right-Wingers" the Militias, Talk
Radio, and Christian Fundamentalists.

To the Clintons, conservatives were the enemy, not Islamic
fundamentalists, despite the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and
all the rest, because they have been "progressive" Leftists since their
college days. They have been working to overthrow our American form
of government, and very nearly succeeded, with the help of their
"Useful Idiots" in the media, academia, and the voting public.

United States Constitution

Article. III.

Section. 3.

Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in
levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving
them Aid and Comfort.

211 posted on 09/08/2004 6:39:23 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nopardons; Calpernia

This is the URL to save, it has several Presidents papers and the one where clinton said we will absorb the first strike was here last year, in Executive Orders for 1997 or 1998, I think in November........

I would think there will be much to read here, the Weekly Compilation in 1993, had Cuba.

Oh, well, at least you and Cal will have enough to play with
for tonight.......LOL - I see you both digging away......

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President of the United States

Frames Index | No-Frames Version

Biographies | Bush Cabinet | Citizen-Services | Continental Congress | Current
Speeches | Directives
Documents | E-Mail | Executive Orders | First Ladies | Historic Speeches
Impeachment | Libraries
Pardons | Politics | Presidential Medal of Freedom
Public Papers | Salary | Succession | Trivia | Vetoes | Weekly Compilation |
White House

Last updated on March 3, 2004

212 posted on 09/08/2004 7:11:15 PM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (On this day your Prayers are needed!!!!!!!)
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To: nw_arizona_granny

The Venona Cables


NSA Web site, "Introductory History of VENONA and Guide to the Translations,

NSA Web site, "Introduction to the VENONA Project,"

213 posted on 09/08/2004 7:25:36 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia; Eastbound; All

Still reading “Mutiny Does Not Happen Lightly".

So I have more to post. I feel like I'm just talking to myself here. Does anyone need this info?


Hey, if ya got 'em, post 'em - thanks. I haven't read it. Actually, I've never heard about it. Guess I should check it out, eh?

214 posted on 09/09/2004 6:21:30 PM PDT by JLO
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New Soldier (text only) can be downloaded here at Document Download: has the pictures and excerpts for review.

215 posted on 09/09/2004 6:31:13 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Russian POW camps with information on who was where to date, posted here:

216 posted on 09/09/2004 6:33:19 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: stockpirate

What was the link to the FBI files you had on this story?


The Los Angeles Times recently reported that selected leaders of Kerry’s Vietnam Veterans Against the War met with representatives of Hanoi who told these leaders which senators they wanted assassinated, and that Kerry participated in a “closed-door discussion” on November of 1971 on whether to do this. Kerry denies this, saying he resigned the organization in July of 1971. But there is a problem. Reporter Thomas H. Lipscomb in an article in The New York Sun wrote:

“A Vietnam veteran who said he remembers John Kerry participating in a November 1971 Kansas City meeting at which an assassination plot was discussed says an official with the Kerry presidential campaign called him this month and pressured him to change his story. The veteran, John Musgrave, says he was called twice by the head of Veterans for Kerry, John Hurley, who told him,”Why don’t you refresh your memory and call that reporter back ?” Musgrave said, “I told Hurley it was my first meeting as an state officer of VVAW and I remember Kerry being there. I remember what I remember.”

By then, the recollections of six witnesses, along with minutes and FBI records, placed Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, but the story has since then been sanitized until it simply disappeared. However, John Musgrave is a friend of Mr. Magruder and lives in the same area in Kansas. He was one of 62 Vietnam vets Mr. Magruder interviewed in Houston for this film. He appears in a photo with Mr. Magruder and General William Westmoreland at the end of the film. At that time Musgrave was running for President of Vietnam Veterans of America. Said Mr. Magruder, “Musgrave once autographed a book of his for me, On Snipers, Laughter, and Death:Vietnam Poems, as follows: “To Len - a true friend of the Vietnam veteran and a friend of mine - your buddy- John.” Said Mr. Magruder, “I have great admiration for John Musgrave. He is a man of great integrity and courage. He was very badly wounded in Vietnam and earned three Purple Hearts. He is very highly regarded in this community . He got out of VVAW when he saw how it was being used by the Left. If he says Kerry was at that meeting in Kansas City, then Kerry was at that meeting, period. I think Kerry has a problem here that has been buried by a media that is campaigning for Kerry.”

217 posted on 09/09/2004 6:35:13 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia; nopardons

Hey, I agree. Maybe nopardons got a little confrontational, and then so did I. OK, maybe it was ME first, LOL. She actually gave a lot of insight into the Martha Stewart story that I found pretty interesting quite awhile ago, and I backed her up along time ago, not from personal knowledge, but from fact-finding. I'm talking years ago; we had a very brief exchange. She doesn't recall that, I guess. I do. No matter. Guess her and I don't relate. Doesn't bother me. And she apparently agrees.

No hard feelings on my end.

218 posted on 09/09/2004 6:38:18 PM PDT by JLO
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To: Calpernia

What part of the statement that you listed are you looking for FBI docs for?

What you wrote in the post where did you get the text from?

219 posted on 09/09/2004 6:40:48 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: stockpirate

Text is from here:

And if I remember correctly, you had a list of links to the FBI files from the Senator assassination discussion, right?

Or am I mixing up freepers and posts.

220 posted on 09/09/2004 6:43:47 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Kerry is a traitor ang may God help us if he's elected Commander in Chief.

221 posted on 09/09/2004 6:46:31 PM PDT by Ciexyz ("FR, best viewed with a budgie on hand")
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To: Calpernia

Yes I have the links for the assassination meetings and the FBI docs in general.

YOu want the link for the November 1971 meeting? That meeting shows that John Kerry was there and that the proposal was "NOT" voted down, but was tabled until the Feb. 1972 meeting, which was the VVAW's policy.

I have two links, one is an article that shows Kerry was still a National Leader in Feb of 1972 and the FBI link.

222 posted on 09/09/2004 6:47:13 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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Just drop it...Calpernia and I have. :-)

223 posted on 09/09/2004 6:51:17 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Ciexyz

224 posted on 09/09/2004 6:52:27 PM PDT by They'reGone2000 (And we hope they're not coming back!)
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To: nopardons; Calpernia; All

Guess you forgot about this post, you made, miss manners, eh? I wasn't in poor taste adding you -- you asked to be added, before you said it was rude of me to add you. You requested it. Here's proof. Now who is rude, eh? ---

Don't bother answering nopardons.
Well,then add me to your ping list...please. :-)

135 posted on 09/08/2004 12:27:45 AM CDT by nopardons
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225 posted on 09/09/2004 6:56:42 PM PDT by JLO
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To: stockpirate

Oh GREAT! Can you add your links here? I would appreciate it!


226 posted on 09/09/2004 6:58:24 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia
Here are all my links.

Several of my posting concerning John Kerry, VVAW and the FBI files.

Highlights of the FBI files and John Kerry, section 7 (October 1971)

Do the FBI Files concerning the VVAW (Kerry’s antiwar group) indicate a plot to assassinate Pres. Nixon?

Here is what I have found in the FBI files re: VVAW and John Kerry

John Kerry caused a fracture in VVAW for his own selfish goals (FBI Files reveal)

Kerry, Watergate: DNC Links Caused Break-in? (Kerry lied! Still with the VVAW after February 1972)

Lets watch the film of John Kerry and VVAW members throwing combat medals over the fence

Treat as Yellow – John Kerry’s VVAW coordinating with the North Vietnam Communist Government when US forces are under attack

VVAW leader meets with Communists to discuss tactics in the US antiwar movement. Kerry’s group!

Vietnam Veterans Against the War, John Kerry, FBI files Section 8 (Oct-Nov 1971)

This one is not my post:

New Video TV ad – Kerry’s VVAW Assassination Plot
227 posted on 09/09/2004 6:59:20 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: stockpirate



228 posted on 09/09/2004 7:00:44 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Here is the link for what you are looking for. The posting is not so good so you will have to copy the link fromthe list and paste it into your browser.

If you run across any information like what you posted, please send it to me.

229 posted on 09/09/2004 7:05:53 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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To: Fedora
you may want to read this. It appears about halfway down the page.

Kerry and the assassination plot
230 posted on 09/09/2004 7:13:55 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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Okay,I see that you ares still looking for attention... ANY KIND of attention,so here goes.

You smarmily claimed that people needed to know what YOU know,out of the blue,when I had replied to another poster,who is an old,dear friend of mine,and we were just hacking around.

I then posted to YOU,that you should add me to your ping list.That was it;I was being POLITE And NONCONFRONTATIONAL.

And then...POW you went after me,yelling/complaining that you had once,loooooooooooooong ago put me on your ping list,but that I had told you to take me off.(bait)And I concurred,explaining that you had done so WITHOUT my permission.Which IS very bad form on FR,to do.After which,you took off...BIG TIME...baiting and flaming and even posting an obscene post that had to be removed.

You're now attempting to once again high-jack this thread,flip flopping,telling lies,alternating being "nice" and nasty about me,in your posts.

Just stop this.Nobody cares and you're only making yourself look foolish/perverse.

231 posted on 09/09/2004 7:16:42 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: stockpirate

Great links;thanks for posting them !

232 posted on 09/09/2004 7:17:52 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: stockpirate

>>>If you run across any information like what you posted, please send it to me.

I know there are over 200 posts here; but you may want to go back to the beginning and read this thread. This is all Kerry research. I DO have more information posted here like the one I just pinged you with.

233 posted on 09/09/2004 7:21:55 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia


234 posted on 09/09/2004 7:29:10 PM PDT by stockpirate (Dick Morris; Before he spoke, supporting Bush was a duty one owed to the fallen. Now, it is an honor)
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Ping for future reference.

235 posted on 09/09/2004 7:31:04 PM PDT by Zman516 (No retreat, baby, no surrender.)
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To: ahayes
Still makes me angry, wild..... my son in law was wounded the first week he was in Vietnam. He stepped on a land mine and as a result spent 3 years in hospital, one in Vietnam, 2 in Japan and as an out patient in the USA. He has never mentioned if he received a medal or not. His life was ruined, his wife's life was ruined and their daughter's life has been negatively affected. When he did return to the US he was denigrated by the public and his peers. That made him feel guilty for being in Vietnam. While hospitalized he was turned into a morphine addict. He beat that, but what it all did to him mentally is a crying shame.

He was a nice Irish Boy from Boston who adored my daughter and she him. Screw John Kerry and his band aide scratches and rhetoric about atrocities.!
236 posted on 09/09/2004 7:44:05 PM PDT by wingnuts'nbolts (Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole.)
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To: nopardons

Just stop this.Nobody cares
So stop already, nopardons, why don't ya. You keep on and on, even after the fact; time to quit already. If you're one of those folks, who has to have the very last word...well then fine. You had the last word.


As you said...Just stop this.Nobody cares and you're only making yourself look foolish/perverse.

231 posted on 09/09/2004 9:16:42 PM CDT by nopardons


237 posted on 09/09/2004 8:25:04 PM PDT by JLO
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To: Calpernia

"I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine."

The friend he's alluding to would be David Mixner, one of five key leaders of the Moratorium, the other four being Jerome Grossman (founder), Sam Brown (primary organizer), David Hawk, and Marge Sklencar.

On a related note with respect to Kerry, in early 1970 while he was running for Congress Kerry became friends and political allies with Grossman and Brown; it was at Grossman's suggestion that Kerry agreed to drop out of the 1970 Congressional campaign and support Robert Drinan instead. My next article gets into some details of this. One thing I'll note here is that the leadership of the Moratorium was interlocked with the leadership of the New Mobe (New Mobilization Committee to End the War in Vietnam), which a 1970 Congressional report found to be under “communist domination”. Walinsky was the most prominent leader of the New York branch of the Moratorium. In other words, by flying Walinsky around, Kerry was supporting a Communist front group while still on active duty. This is evidently why Kerry's accounts emphasize that "Mr. Kerry has said he did not take part in the protests". I guess flying one of the key speakers around isn't taking part. . .evidently as Clinton would say, it depends on the meaning of "taking part". . .

238 posted on 09/09/2004 8:25:41 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: stockpirate

Thanks for the link on that!

239 posted on 09/09/2004 8:29:08 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora

>>>My next article gets into some details of this.

What article is this? Do you have a newsletter or something? Can I get on that distribution?

And thank you for adding that information!

240 posted on 09/09/2004 8:32:16 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

I'll be posting it here. I'll ping you when I do.

241 posted on 09/09/2004 8:40:59 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora

Thank you!

242 posted on 09/09/2004 8:43:54 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

You're most welcome :) Thanks for the thread!

243 posted on 09/09/2004 9:09:27 PM PDT by Fedora
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To: Fedora; Coleus

Undefined research to date. Adding to this thread, Fedora's find on David Mixner.

This is a research thread I started on Kerry. I know Mixner is involved further from reading the below interview. It fits into undefined areas to date.

None of which are definable for connecting as of yet.

RAW findings!

David Mixner
Politically Speaking
Interview by Randy Shulman
Photography by Todd Franson
Published on
"You want a soundbite?"

David Mixner grins.

"I'll give you a soundbite. I'm a man who's devoted forty years of his life -- sometimes at great validation and sometimes at great pain -- to the struggle for freedom and human rights.

Advertisement · Page Continued

"You know, when I was a child growing up," he continues, "we didn't have television, but we got Life magazine. And it opened the outside world to us. As a kid I said, 'I want to live the history of my times. I want to witness it.' And then I got to a second level where I said, 'God, if I could just meet and shake the hands of the people making the history of my times, I'd be happy.' And then I said to myself, 'If I could just be a tiny footnote in the history of my times.'

"So that's where I'm at now. A tiny, tiny footnote. But a magnificent life journey for myself."

Mixner is being modest. If anything, he's less a footnote than a frequent -- and some might say necessary -- headline. One of the great activists of our time -- both for gay rights and liberal-minded causes, such as nuclear disarmament and civil rights -- he has been a mover and shaker behind the scenes, a front man only when necessary. He has been arrested for civil disobedience well over a dozen times -- a fact of which he's extremely proud.

A big, garrulous man, with a robust laugh and a passion beyond measure, the author and political consultant, born in southern New Jersey on August 16, 1946, fell into the world of politics almost by accident. "I don't know why I got so much political success at such a young age," he says. He's never run for office ("Never will"), never accepted an political appointment, not even when his good friend Bill Clinton was living in the White House, and he has interests that reach far beyond the world of politics.

"I don't eat, breathe, sleep politics," he sighs. "I'm not a political junkie. I am a true disciple of Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Pope John XXIII decreed that we were put here on this planet to help others. And that's what drives me."

That may be, but Mixner constantly steers himself back into the world of political activism, including a recent fight to help defeat the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment in the Senate.

His personal politics were informed by his involvement in the civil rights movement and the anti-war demonstrations of the '60s and '70s. And though he didn't come out until the age of 30, he couldn't have timed it better -- just as the gay movement was beginning to take shape and define itself. At the prodding of his now-deceased partner, Peter Scott, Mixner took up the gay gauntlet.

For the past two years Mixner has called Washington his home, and he's been working on a new book entitled On the Edge, which offers his take on the current state of America. There's no publication date set as of yet, since the book has been on hold since January as Mixner fought tooth and nail to defeat the amendment. And now he's turned his attentions to John Kerry, to help put a new man in the White House and defeat what he calls "the most dangerous president" in our country's history.

METRO WEEKLY: I'd like to start with a bit of your own history, including your coming out.

DAVID MIXNER: I've been a political person for forty-four years -- started doing volunteer work for John F. Kennedy in 1960. My family were Irish-Catholic immigrants and it was an essential part of the Irish-Catholic experience to work for Kennedy if you were alive back then. I was heavily involved in the civil rights movement in the early 1960s. And I was head of the Vietnam Moratorium, which in the late sixties did all the big marches against the war in Vietnam. I got heavily involved in the campaigns of Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern and Robert Kennedy for president. I became very prominent politically and nationally as a young person -- of course that was the age of youth back then, "The Summer of Love." I'd been to jail a couple of times by then for civil rights -- all for the right things. I was in the closet until I was thirty.

When I was thirty years old, Anita Bryant, who had started her campaign to remove and repeal all the gay and lesbian rights ordinances [in several cities], came to California and got on the ballot an initiative that would make it illegal for homosexuals to be schoolteachers. If discovered, they'd be put on trial. When the first polls came out, it was leading 75 to 25 percent. Our own community was heavily divided over whether we should even fight it -- Bryant had won in four cities [prior to California], everyone considered it a forgone conclusion. No straight political consultant would touch it. I had a lot of political experience at that point. And they kept coming to me and asking me to run it. I was still in the closet, and I knew that if I ran it, I'd have to come out. But I also felt that if I didn't do it, I could never live with myself.

MW: What had kept you in for so long?

MIXNER: Fear. Stark, raving fear. I grew up in the fifties, where if you were discovered to be gay, lobotomies were still an accepted form of therapy. I knew people who had had lobotomies and were put in institutions by their families. That was legal.

When I was growing up, the one kid in town who was obviously gay committed suicide at sixteen. And I remember sitting around the dinner table with my family -- I was sixteen, too -- and my family saying, "That family's better off that he's dead." That's from my mother and father -- loving, good people.

There were no gay community service centers, there were no Time magazine stories, the New York Times even refused to print the word. There was no movie of the week. So the only thing I ever read was about people in my town who were arrested in the park, and their lives were destroyed.

So I had achieved significant political success at an early age, and I thought if I came out, I'd lose it all. And guess what? I would have. When I came out in 1977, liberal Democrats returned checks to me, saying they couldn't accept my money any longer. I'd stopped being invited to Democratic Party meetings -- and these are people I'd worked with for ten years, people I'd been to jail with.

MW: They were turning their backs on you.

MIXNER: I don't even know if they were aware of how brutal it was, what they were doing.

MW: How did the Anita Bryant thing end up?

MIXNER: We won. We ran the campaign. We carried every county in California, except one. We took 54 percent of the vote, we got Ronald Reagan to come out against it. I met with Reagan. A closeted gay Republican got us a meeting, at great risk to his own political self. It was a delightful meeting -- I was treated in that meeting with more respect than almost any other elected official I've ever met with.

MW: What are your thoughts on the passing of Reagan?

MIXNER: This is where I always get myself in trouble. I come from an Irish Catholic family and when your worst enemy dies, you never say anything bad about him for a month. But a month's over. So let me put it very clearly: there's no question in my mind -- none -- that if Ronald Reagan had acted on AIDS like [his administration] did on Toxic Shock Syndrome and Legionnaire's Disease, most of my friends would still be alive today. Now what can you say about a man like that? These days we have to value our words as much as much as our actions, so I don't use angry words. But I think that calmly speaks for itself.

MW: Back to your coming out, what did the act itself do for you?

MIXER: I know the most important act of my life was coming out, no question about it. It redefined my life. And it enabled me to operate as a free man. It enabled me to no longer live in shame and fear of judgment. It removed an enormous fear from my life of blackmail of destruction. It made me part of one of the most magnificent tribes I've ever known in my generation. Extraordinary people who took care of their sick and dying and still staffed the barricades, fighting for liberty. I've never seen anything like it in my life. I've been involved in every kind of movement you can imagine, and this is one of the most magnificent stories around. One of the most magnificent tribes. I've seen courage like I have never seen courage in my life.

Some people think I'm too public with what I do, but how can you be comfortable when the President of the United States goes before the congress and wants to put an apartheid amendment in the Constitution that applies to you. That never lets you be comfortable. You constantly have to come to terms with your own self-hatred.

So how comfortable can you be? We are still legitimate fodder for the political cannons. And so, unfortunately, we can't become too comfortable until we get out of that firing range.

But we've taken historic steps forward. This defeat on the constitutional amendment was critical to us. We showed that we were able to muster the power to stop it dead in the Senate. Now, I don't like a lot of things that were said in the debate on the Senate floor -- we can find things that were wrong -- but what was important is that we stop it. Because, trust me, if this had ever gotten out of the Congress, I don't think we could have stopped it in the states. This was a major victory for us. A turning point. Is it over? Oh, hell no. Just when you think it's safe to go in the water…

I mean, I wasn't planning to spend my year like this. I really wasn't. I have a book I'm writing. And everything was put on hold -- but that's as it should be in these times of crisis, when people of good conscience have to come to the fore. Silence is the greatest oppressor of all.

MW: In your line of activism, you have to roll with what comes up, don't you?

MIXNER: [Laughs.] Every time I think I have a certain path and everything planned out, a nice little calendar and a boyfriend picked out, some fucker comes along and starts demagoguing us. And my life's thrown into topsy-turvey. But a lot of people are all called upon. And a lot of people stepped to the front of this battle. There were a lot of disappointments. But the key thing is, we won. We won.

MW: In 1986, you conceived of the Great Peace March for Global Nuclear Disarmament, in which thousands marched across the country from Los Angeles to Washington, D.C. It was one of your biggest non-gay ventures.

MIXNER: Yeah. And the biggest political failure of my life. It was, in some ways, a success, but not because of me.

MW: Why?

MIXNER: Ego. Pure and simple. You start believing what people tell you at a young age. So instead of defining yourself and your own journey and the path that God has chosen for you, I started living the expectations of how people said they saw me. And my ego got out of control.

Fortunately, I directed my ego to a good cause -- nuclear disarmament. The concept of the March was good and the cause was good. But the decision-making apparatus within the organization was flawed because of my ego. And it failed in the way I had planned it. Now the wonderful, magnificent part about this story is that the marchers reorganized on their own and continued to walk across country, despite the burden I had placed on them.

It is without a doubt my biggest political failure and my biggest regret. Years later, I still get shaky every time I talk about it. But I have some pride in how I handled it. I didn't blame others. I didn't hold fundraisers afterwards to ask people to raise money -- I paid off four hundred and some thousand dollars worth of small debt on my own over the next five years. It got an enormous amount of attention at the time.

It could have succeeded if I hadn't wanted to be liked by everybody and had exerted strong leadership. And I realize now that all those people who were carrying me on their shoulders and calling me Moses, when the slightest hint of trouble arose, dropped me to the floor and called me Satan. It was a valuable lesson. Very humbling.

MW: In your estimation, where does gay political activism stand today?

MIXNER: Light years ahead of where we were. Let's just sort of walk through it. I was one of the founders of the first gay and lesbian political PACs in history. And that partially came out of the fact of me coming out and becoming a victim -- "God, they're returning my money and they're not letting me play anymore" and " I'm a has-been at 30." My partner, Peter Scott, said to me, "You can either be a victim or you can fight back. What's the thing they respect more than anything else?" And I said, "Money." And he said, "Well, let's just speak their language." So we formed the first gay and lesbian PAC in history, called MECLA -- the Municipal Elections Committee of Los Angeles. It was the organization that HRC modeled itself after. We had the first big political dinner in Los Angeles. I'll never forget -- it made $40,000, an all-time record. And we couldn't believe it. Now, the other night, I sat in an audience in New York, where the gay and lesbian community raised $1.8 million for John Kerry in one night. And five days beforehand, the gay and lesbian community in the back yard of Senator Edward Kennedy raised another $300,000 for the fight against the amendment. And HRC in the last six months has raised a million to fight the amendment. And the Log Cabin Republicans raised almost a million to fight the amendment. Start adding it up -- we've almost raised $25 million this year alone. And back then we were thrilled with forty-fucking-thousand dollars. So look at how far we've come, that's my point.

Through the Victory Fund and other organizations around the country, we now have hundreds of openly gay and lesbian elected officials, which I believe is the most important thing for us to focus on. Any place where we have someone on the floor like Barney Frank or Tammy Baldwin in Congress or Sheila Kuehl in the California legislature, peoples attitudes change on the floor. They find it hard to face them down. You can't hate someone you know.

MW: Kerry and Edwards have taken some heat for not showing up for the amendment vote.

MIXNER: Let me just be real honest: I was disappointed that John Kerry and John Edwards didn't show up and vote.

There's a certain point you reach a line and you say, "This is why I got in office, when I was an idealist and I believed that I could change the world. This is exactly the kind of moment that I saw other people not display courage when I was a young man and got in office to change." This was such a moment. This goes right up there with the Civil Rights Bill of '64 or the Voting Bill of '65. It was a historical moment for our community. Now, am I going to support George Bush? Hell, no. Am I going to shoot myself in the foot? Hell, no. I'm not that stupid. But I was disappointed. But we're going to be disappointed as long as we put our future in someone else's hands. I often say I spent the first twenty years of my political career waiting for the perfect candidate and the last twenty years understanding there won't be a perfect candidate.

I think we've matured as a community to the degree where we can understand that we will be disappointed or have differences with people in power. African-Americans learned this, the Jewish community learned this -- you can't place your freedom in other peoples' hands. You just can't. You can't abdicate your own responsibility, to cherish it, keep it and fight for it. Or you will inevitably be disappointed and angry. And so, until we truly get to that point, where we have control over our own tribe and our own destiny as a community, and are able to make our gifts to this society unchecked, without fear of retribution, we have to create our alliances. But we learn when there's differences, we don't have to destroy ourselves over them. We can just say, "Look, we were disappointed. You did the wrong thing." We should never be the ones to enable them to think they can duck and that's the right thing. We should never be the ones to give them permission to take a pass on our freedom. We've matured enough to know that we can say to them, "You were wrong, but we're going to work side by side because there's a greater evil at stake here."

Let me just say that I've been also very happy with a lot of things John Kerry's done on DOMA and on Don't Ask Don't Tell, where he was on our side when no one else was. On balance, I think he has a distinguished record. I have no problem supporting him. I will enthusiastically go to the polls and support him to get rid what I consider the most dangerous president in all my life.

MW: George W. Bush.

MIXNER: He's a dangerous, dangerous man. The most dangerous president I have ever seen in all my years. He makes Nixon look like a liberal. If someone said to me, what do you think is the most dangerous thing about George W. Bush, well, I mean, it's hard to pick. But I always come up with a few choice bits. The obvious one is the tribe that I'm part of and what he's doing to us. Our civil liberties are at stake, our separation of church and state is at stake, our Supreme Court is at stake. The ability of the president to go to war at choice is at stake. And pretty much the foreign policy of our country and disregard for the Geneva Accord is at stake. Our obligations to international treaties are at stake. I can't remember when all of this has been at stake in an election. Planned Parenthood. Family clinics in Africa who can't get money to distribute condoms for AIDS. It's genocidal. This man has no regard for centuries of knowledge and tradition and the journeys of people who have stood for human rights and dignity. He has just completely thrown all of that aside. He is one of the most rigid ideologues I've ever seen occupy the presidency.

MW: How do you feel about outing as a political tactic?

MIXNER: Let me just say, having worked in a number of state legislatures and campaigns, there's nothing more infuriating than coming up to a closeted person who's working against you. When you're working eighteen hours a day, seven days a week and suddenly you find out that the guy who's sending out the negative press release is a member of your tribe. It's like blacks for George Wallace -- I'm like "Huh?"

Now, having said that, and understanding how infuriating it has been in my life to come across those people, it's so very important that, given our journey -- especially with AIDS -- that we don't become them. If our ideas rest and fall on extortion and blackmail, then what are our ideas worth? I hope we would create an attractiveness that would be irresistible to any closeted gay person, that they'd want to join us eventually. I'm terrified that I'm gonna wake up some morning and some kid on the Hill is going to have killed himself. And then how are we going to feel about outing? We're playing with people's lives. We're making their decisions for their life journeys. It's not a small deal. I almost killed myself when I was blackmailed. I know the terror I felt, I know the fear. I really hope that in this time where we have great ideas of human rights and liberty and justice and equality to take to the American people, and also to maybe redefine for them what love is, that our ideas and our chances on victory do not rest on such anger.

The world is filled with hypocrites. That is just a fact of life. Now the question is, do we give them a forum? Is that our battle? To out people? Or is our battle equality, justice and liberty? Where do we put our energy? Do we jerk off and feel good that got rid of our anger by outing these people? Or do we focus on the battle?

MW: There's been a significant growth among the gay community of Republicans. What's your feeling about their value to our movement?

MIXNER: Let me just disclose here, I'm a militant Democrat, so this is not an unbiased opinion. I don't understand gay Republicans. But I do understand courage. And sometimes courage is nothing more than a lack of options. And I do understand that what Patrick Guerriero and the Log Cabin Republican Club did in taking on the whole Republican party -- not only nationally, but state by state where they were being kicked out left and right -- was an act of courage. And they did more for fighting this amendment than ninety percent of the people who badmouth them for being gay Republicans. They went out, they raised money, they ran ads, they delivered votes. They worked hard, they took heat, they were blasted, they were dragged through the gutter, they were banned from conventions, they were denied delegate seats. And they kept fighting against this amendment. They didn't blink. God bless 'em.

MW: You've known Bill Clinton for thirty-five years. What are your thoughts about his presidency and the gay community?

MIXNER: Bill Clinton will go down in history as one of the greatest presidents for this community, ever. Ever, ever, ever, ever. For the scope and the breadth of the changes he made in the agencies and the State Department. It was against the law for us to openly serve in the State department before he came in. People seem to forget that. Against the law. We could not work in the State Department. He made historical changes across the board. But he was far from perfect -- DOMA, Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

MW: Have you read the book?

MIXNER: No. Nine hundred pages of his life, are you kidding? I don't think so. I won't read nine-hundred pages of my life.

MW: DOMA is not addressed in it.

MIXNER: If I was him, I wouldn't want to mention it either.

MW: Shouldn't it be?

MIXNER: Oh, there we go about what should be in the world again. Shouldn't there be peace? Look, look, let's just be real honest about this. I think Bill Clinton is one of the greatest presidents in our history. You know, my mama and father had pictures of Franklin Roosevelt in our living room. And I predict that young gay people down the road will have pictures of Bill Clinton in their living rooms or on their desks. And it will be one of the great sources of pride, those pictures.

MW: So you feel that his overall legacy to this community is...

MIXNER: Is extraordinary. The executive order banning discrimination against our community in every agency except the military but including the civilian defense department. Allowing us to serve in the Peace Corps. Allowing us to serve in the Job Corps. Opening up appointments -- I think there were something like a hundred appointments [serving in his administration]. I mean, come on. In 1988, the [Democratic] Caucus wouldn't even accept our money. That's a sea change where I come from. Perfect? No. I can go through his record and find things left and right that I wish he had done differently. But you know what? People can go through my life and find things left and right that should have been done differently, including myself. So I'm not going to pretend I'm sitting here as some sort of all-knowing, all-wise thing who would have just done everything right. I look back at some of the decisions I should have made in my own life and go, "Holy crap, please don't let anyone notice them."

MW: You're not mentioned in the book. What are your feelings on that?

MIXNER: It doesn't bother me in the least. That's the case where your ego gets in your way again. And I got burned so bad through my ego [with the Peace March], I'm very careful about that stuff. I know what my friendship is with the president. I know our journey. He knows our journey. We're good friends. It's been a splendid journey. We don't need a book to validate it. It's not up for a vote whether it was real or not.

MW: Do you think Kerry could equal Clinton's legacy towards gays?

MIXNER: I don't want him to. I don't want him to even look back at that record. We're a whole different community than we were in the 1990s. I want him to have a whole different image of us. And I want us to force him to look at us differently. He's going to be tempted to look at what he knows. And what he knows is the community of the 1990s. But we're a whole different tribe now. And we cannot be the ones to push the Clinton analogy out there. We've got to say, "Oh, no, no, no, that was a decade ago, honey. Listen, Mary, it's a whole new world." It's not enough to be appointed deputy deputy deputy deputy. We want cabinet. We want money from the DNC for our Senate candidates.

Electing your own in the political process is still the most important thing. I've often said I didn't spend these last twenty some years fighting for someone to be the head of the gay and lesbian student alliance. I've been fighting for twenty years so they can be president. Of the United States. And I mean it. I don't know if I'll live to see it, but then I actually didn't think I'd live long enough to see a lot of the stuff I've seen. I've been caught by surprise by how much progress we've made. So who knows?

MW: With sodomy overturned and marriage working its way into the culture, what as you see it are the political tasks left undone for our community?

MIXNER: I'm going to recreate your question. I'm not going to make it just political tasks. I think the greatest challenge after coming out is repairing our damaged self-esteem and our self-hatred. Even now, after being out all these years, I sometimes find myself surprised at my own homophobia or that moment where I say, "Well, do I bring this up?" We're the one group, in a nation that says it values honesty more than anything else, that was encouraged to lie -- we were so bad, so evil, so dark that this society which values honesty more than anything else said, "Please, lie." And they're still saying it. George Bush is still saying it. I read a phrase today and I just started laughing -- he said, "I don't mind what they do, as long as they keep to themselves."

Our churches tell us to lie, our families tell us to lie. Every institution this society values has reinforced how bad we are. That has manifested itself in alcoholism or drugs or any number of other problems, but also in holding back our gifts and talent. Not going for the excellence all time. And so I think repairing that self-esteem and removing that self-hatred is our greatest task. And the way we do that is with role models. There are so many fields and so many professions that we don't have anyone out in.

I would imagine that there's a kid on a little league team now who knows he's gay, and there is not one male gay pro baseball player -- except those who have gotten out, like Billy Bean -- who's out and playing ball. Now, I can tell you what that kid believes. That if he wants to play baseball, he can't be out. I promise you that's what he believes. And he's going to grow up that way.

We've got an enormous amount of work ahead to create a safe world for us all where we can flourish as open, talented and gifted people. But we've lost a generation of mentors and role models to AIDS. We've skipped a whole generation. So we have to deal with that. And we've hardly even articulated that, let alone dealt with it. And I'm guilty of that -- I don't like to talk about it. But it is a fact that I have come to realize lately. During this constitutional amendment battle, I couldn't understand why some of these young people weren't fighting harder or were more scared. And then I realized -- they've never been in battle, or known anyone who had been in battle. Because [so many] had died in battle. So they haven't had anyone to teach them how to fight.

One of the great historical traditions since the Greeks and the Romans is the passing down of knowledge. And once I realized that, I realized this is something we have to come to terms with in the community. That we have to educate our young about our history, how to fight, how to be noble in battle, and how to never, ever give someone permission to use your freedom as a political football.

244 posted on 09/09/2004 10:37:55 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

Posting this just because it was PULLED from the website and only available through cache.

HRC’s Controversial Pennsylvania Endorsement
By Bob Roehr

The Human Rights Campaign quietly endorsed Democratic Rep. Joe Hoeffel for the U.S. Senate race in Pennsylvania on August 3. In making the endorsement it snubbed one of its strongest Republican supporters, Sen. Arlen Specter.

Partisan and nonpartisan observers alike were surprised by the action and questioned its wisdom.

Mike Mings said, “It boils down to the Federal Marriage Amendment (FMA).” He manages HRC’s political action committee (PAC). Last October the PAC board “approved a litmus test on endorsements” based on the FMA. “We felt that someone can’t put us as second class citizens in the Constitution and expect that we would be helpful.”

HRC told senators that they considered the July procedural vote on cloture on the FMA to be a vote on the substance of the amendment. Specter has said that he opposes the substance of the FMA and would vote against the amendment itself, but he supported the Republican leadership on the procedural vote.

Hoeffel is a three-term congressman from the Philadelphia suburbs who has a 100% rating with HRC, but because of his limited seniority and the committees on which he serves, he has not played a leadership role on gay or AIDS issues. “We have a great friend in Joe Hoeffel and we are happy to be supporting him,” Mings said.

When asked if the same thing could be said of Specter, Mings replied, “Yes.”

The polls have shown Specter with support from a bare majority of the voters in a two-man race with Hoeffel; but the challenger is about 15 points behind, with the balance undecided. That hasn’t changed in months. Furthermore, Specter has a more than 2 to 1 advantage in cash on hand in his campaign war chest.

Terje Anderson, executive director of the National Association of People With AIDS (NAPWA), said Specter “has always been very much a friend of the AIDS community. In his role on the Appropriations Committee, he doesn’t always take our number and advocate for them, but he has played a key role in many of the funding increases, particularly at NIH.” NAPWA does not make endorsements in political races.

David Greer called HRC’s endorsement “an incredible slap in the face to Specter and to the process.” He is a past president of Log Cabin Republicans of Pennsylvania and has served on a HRC advisory committee. “You can’t deny that Specter has been a good friend of the community.”

“This seems to fly in the face of HRC’s past criteria that they will endorse incumbents who have a good record, over challengers. Another part of their endorsement criteria is viability. All of the polls that I’ve seen show Hoeffel trailing by as much as 20 points,” Greer added.

Mings believes that Hoeffel is a viable candidate. He noted that the race is “a top priority for the Democratic Senatorial Committee...The race is certainly going to tighten up.”

Carl Schmidt is a Republican lobbyist on gay and AIDS issues who has worked closely with HRC. He called the decision “a major disappointment. Why would you abandon your lead sponsor for ENDA, and the chair of appropriations for AIDS funding?...And he’s the incumbent. HRC has a policy” of supporting the incumbent.

Log Cabin Republicans political director Christopher Barron echoed those concerns. He recited the list of Specter’s efforts on community issues and said, “For us there was really no question. It was a slam-dunk to endorse Sen. Specter” for reelection, which they did in early July.

“Spector almost lost his Senate seat [in the primary in April] in part because of his support for gay and lesbian issues. I believe that this community owes it Sen. Specter to stand up and support him for all of the years of standing up and supporting us.”

“HRC has said that they are a bipartisan organization but if they can’t endorse Sen. Specter, it’s difficult to find what Republican senators they could endorse,” Barron said.

When asked if the litmus test means that only the six Republican senators who voted against cloture would be considered for HRC’s endorsement, Mings replied, “A couple of those people wouldn’t qualify for other reasons.”

Schmidt acknowledged some validity to HRC making the FMA procedural vote a litmus test. “Well, then, Kerry and Edwards should have been there. Like David Mixner said, he was very disappointed they weren’t there, because this was not just a procedural vote. Well, you can’t have it both ways. Either it was a procedural vote or it wasn’t. You can’t give a bye to Edwards and Kerry.”

Mings’ explanation is, “We have never marked people down for an absence.”

Greer calls that “legislative gymnastics by HRC to support this ticket,” and punish Specter. He believes the community’s goals are better advanced “when we don’t base endorsements on one vote when there is an entire portfolio of issues that this community is affected by.”

Mark Segal is publisher of the Philadelphia Gay News and has been active in Democratic politics in Pennsylvania for decades. He calls Specter “a fly by night friend” who “we can only occasionally count on.”

Nonetheless, he endorsed Specter in his tough primary fight this year against “an ultra-right wing Republican,” though he will be voting for Hoeffel in November.

Segal panned Specter’s procedural vote on the FMA and supports HRC’s decision to use this as a litmus test issue. “You have to take a stand somewhere. It’s about time gay and lesbian people have pride enough to vote for their rights.”

But at the same time, he acknowledged that Specter “is going to win” and HRC would have been “smart” to either not endorse in the race or to have issued a dual endorsement.

Segal explained, “I’m here in town and I have to do one thing, they have to do something else. I would not be offended if they did the opposite thing that I am doing, because I know that is what they are supposed to do.”

“I’m tired of playing with amateurs,” he said in criticizing HRC, “We don’t have time for our main, supposedly political, leaders to have on the job training, we need professionals.”

“I don’t think they had any choice,” said Ken Sherrill, a professor of political science at Hunter College in New York City. “I honestly think that HRC had a constituency problem, as a consequence of the D’Amato situation.” Their endorsement of the incumbent Republican Senator from New York in 1998 drew a howl of protest from some within the community.

“The Republican Party does not have much currency within the lgbt community right now. I think the standard-that Republicans are being held to, rightly or wrongly, is are you with us or are you against us? Other Republicans voted the other way, he had options and he made a decision.”

245 posted on 09/09/2004 10:42:36 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: prairiebreeze

It would be interesting to hear what Jan Sejna's thoughts are as well. He also happens to have testified definititively regarding unaccounted POWs.

246 posted on 09/10/2004 11:50:13 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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To: Calpernia

Nikolai Getman was in a Gulag near Magadan during the late 1940s and early 1950s. His paintings include Japanese POWs who were imprisoned from 45 until 48. Some were eventually released and returned to Japan. It is completely plausible, given this MO, that the USSR did the same with US servicemen but given the implications, none would have ever been returned to us.

247 posted on 09/10/2004 11:57:48 AM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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Vietnam Vets in Camp INTA

More than 1,000 American enlisted personnel and officers.
Where they were imprisoned and killed, and their records burned in the boiler room in the eastern suburb on Shakhtnaya Street.

But MORE are STILL being seen from witnesses. RUSSIAN witnesses.

Camps in the Area of Moscow

In 1947, while in pre-trial confinement in Potsdam, a Polish witness shared a cell with a U.S. Army sergeant, reportedly a gunner. The witness believed that the sergeant had unintentionally entered the Soviet Zone in Berlin by car and had been immediately arrested. The source described the American as a sturdy fellow, whose father was a farmer. The American gave the source an overcoat. They spoke German, although both spoke it very poorly. They met again at the Lubyanka Prison in Moscow at the turn of 1948. 1

A follow-up interview with the source revealed that in the winter of 1948-1949, he saw the same American in the Transit Prison at Sverdlovsk-Na-Urale. He waved at the American from afar and never saw the American again. Some time after this encounter, source heard from a French officer that the American was shot and killed while attempting to escape. 2

Monino Air Force Academy
During a series of interviews in 1996, a Soviet veteran who lived in Minsk claimed to have seen a U.S. POW in May or June 1953. The POW reportedly was a Korean War F-86D pilot whose plane had been forced to land. The pilot landed his plane undamaged, was captured, and his aircraft taken to Moscow. The incident occurred in the late spring of 1953. According to the witness--who served in An Dun, China, from December 1952 through February 1954--the pilot was sent to Moscow the day after his forced landing, "because Stalin wanted to speak with him." The witness said that his commander, Colonel Ivan Nikolayevich Kozhedub, interrogated the pilot. He believed the U.S. POW was not injured. The witness stated that the late General Vasiliy Kuzmich Sidorenkov had a picture of the American POW, which Sidorenkov showed to him years ago, declaring, "that's our American." He stated that the U.S. POW depicted in the photo was white, with light brown hair and blue or light brown eyes, was about five feet seven inches tall, and had a two and half inch scar above the right eye. The witness revealed that this pilot later became an instructor and taught at the Monino Air Force Academy in Moscow from 1953-58. The U.S. POW did not speak Russian and served at Monino under an assumed Russian name. He did not know the name and could not recall any other details about the U.S. POW, who reportedly taught air battle techniques and tactics and assisted the Soviets in figuring out a U.S. radar sight (radio-lokatsionniy pritsel). 3

Krasnaya Presnya Prison
In a letter to President Nixon, repatriated American John Noble reported that, inscribed in the wall of Krasnaya Presnya Prison in Moscow, he saw the name of a Major Roberts or Robbins, with his American address and the inscription, "I am sick and don't expect to live through this....". 4 In 1958 Mr. Noble reported this incident had occurred in Orsha Transit Prison. Inscribed on a cell wall in the transit prison in Orsha, Byelorussia, (where he was imprisoned prior to his confinement at Krasnaya Presnya) was the name Roberts, Robertson, or Robins followed by a date in mid-August 1950 and "Maj., U.S.A.". 5 [Major Frank A. Roberts, and Captains Robert Roberts and Edward Robbins, are among the 125 service members missing from WWII with the last name of Roberts or Robbins.]

Moscow Transit Prison
In 1954, a German returnee reported meeting an American Army or Air Force captain while detained in the Moscow Transit Prison in 1949. Source was imprisoned in one cell with 19 other German officers from February to April 1949. For three to five days in March another prisoner was placed in source's cell. This prisoner spoke broken German with an American accent and also spoke fluent Russian. He claimed to be a captain in the U.S. Army or Air Force. The Soviet Internal Security Forces reportedly arrested him in the USSR while operating as an agent. Source described him as 30-35 years old, five feet eleven inches tall, slim, athletic build, black hair, slender face with a straight nose and medium-sized ears. He was reticent, but energetic. He gave the impression of being well educated. Source had no further information about the man. 6

Camps in the Area of Vladimirskaya

Vladimir Prison
A United Press release, dated 1 September 1955, reported that nine Austrians and one Italian were released from a Russian prison camp. The returnees reported that U.S. servicemen Wilfred Cumish [returned], Sidney Sparks [returned], Frederick Hopkins [returned], and Grisham [not returned] were in the same camp. 7 [Captain David Howard Grisham, USAF, went missing from the Korean War on 3 September 1950].

Camps in the Area of Mordovska

Several repatriated Iranian witnesses claimed that, at this location in 1953, they knew of an American, a Colonel Jackson, who had been reportedly kidnapped by the Soviets in Berlin. 8

In March 1955 a repatriated German POW informed U.S. Air Force debriefers that in June 1954, while interned in a prisoner of war camp awaiting repatriation to Germany, he met three alleged Americans who had arrived in the camp from Sverdlovsk (Yekaterinburg). One was approximately 43 years old, five feet nine inches tall, stout build, blond hair with gray streaks combed back, brownish-gray eyes, and a full face. Although born in Russia, his parents immigrated with him to the United States where they later became U.S. citizens. He claimed to be former a Military Policeman who accidentally crossed into the Soviet Sector of Berlin shortly after World War II. The second was described as approximately 30 years old, five feet one inch tall, with a stout build, blond curly hair, and gray eyes. He was called "Jolly", spoke German and worked at the camp dispensary. The third was described as a black man, 30 years old, five feet ten inches, and had a slim build. He did not speak German or Russian. The alleged Americans never received any packages from the Red Cross or any mail. On 27 December 1954, they told the German good-bye, stating that the Russian authorities had informed them they would be repatriated. The source had no further information about where the Russians transported the alleged Americans. 9

Potma Camp No. 18
An Estonian witness alleged that he met a U.S. POW from Korea in 1952. The POW's first name was Gary or Harry. The POW was still at the camp when the witness left in the autumn of 1953. 10

Potma Camp No. 19
A Polish witness was the chief of a work brigade in Camp No. 19 in Potma, working primarily in the forest. He claimed there were a few Americans among the 17 nationalities in his brigade. 11

Potma Camp No. 385
In 1960, a German source reported that while interned in the Soviet Union he met two American military personnel. Source met the first American in the autumn of 1957 at Potma Camp No. 385, Sub-camp No. 11 and last saw him in the autumn of 1959 in Sub-camp No. 7. The American was named Jack. He was a light-skinned African-American, 28-30 years old, six feet five or six feet six inches tall, and slender. Jack's mother was part Native American. He had lived in Saint Louis, Missouri. Jack had originally served with the U.S. Constabulary in Bad Hershfeld, Germany as a "First Sergeant." Jack showed source a photo of himself wearing a uniform with a 7th Army patch and Constabulary insignia. Source could not remember any rank insignia. After serving in Bad Hershfeld, Jack returned to the United States. At an unknown date Jack returned to Europe as a member of the United States Air Forces in Europe (USAFE). He was stationed at Celle Airfield during the Berlin airlift, and later with the Military Police in Berlin as a "Sergeant Major." Jack showed the source a second photograph of himself in an "Ike" jacket with Air Force staff sergeant stripes and airborne (parachute) insignia above the jacket pocket. The third photograph was of Jack in a military police uniform with a white garrison cap with visor, leggings, Sam Brown belt, and a .45 holster. In this picture, Jack was standing in front of a military police jeep with the Memorial Church in Berlin in the background. The United States Army Europe and USAFE emblem with "Highway Patrol" in the center appeared just below the windshield of the jeep. Reportedly, Jack went out one evening in Berlin and awoke the next morning in the custody of Soviet authorities in the town of Karlshorst. He was not allowed to write friends or relatives. 12

Source met the second alleged American in Sub-camp No. 11-1 in 1958. This individual claimed to have been a Marine who fought the Japanese in the Philippines during World War II. He was arrested in Manchuria around 1944 supposedly because he was of Russian heritage. He was between 36 and 38 years old. This individual was permitted to write and receive mail from New Jersey via an unknown location in Sweden.

A former German POW met an American prisoner, John Hansen, in August 1955, after having previously heard about him from another prisoner as early as 1953. John Hansen spoke both German and Russian and was described as five feet six inches tall, medium build with brown hair and gray eyes. 13 [SGT John Hansen, GM2C John Hansen, and 1LT John Hanson are missing from WWII. These three are among the 88 service members with the last name of Hansen or Hanson missing from WWII.]

Saransk Camp No. 8
In 1955, a CIA source reported meeting an American from Philadelphia who was a pilot during World War II. He was fairly tall, very strong, and approximately 30 years old with light brown hair and gray eyes. 14

Camps in the Area of Rostov

Novocherkassk Camp No. 1/421
During a 1947 interview, a former German POW reported that he met two American soldiers in POW Hospital 5351 located at Novocherkassk in September 1945. The Americans stayed at the hospital until February 1946, when they were transferred to an engine factory in the same town. The witness provided the names of five other sources that he claimed would be able to verify this information. The one source contacted did in fact verify the account as provided by the witness. 15

Camps in the Area of Kirov

Repatriated American William Marchuk received information from a German POW who was imprisoned in the Kirov camp. The German stated that he was in the camp together with nine American POWs, all captains and majors, who were Korean War aviators.< 16

Camps in the Area of Komi

A German source who was interned in a prisoner of war camp in Inta from January 1949 to September 1950 reported seeing an American pilot while on detached duty in a prisoner of war camp in Abez from May to November 1949. Among the prisoners was an American who was said to be a pilot shot down in World War II. The alleged American was still in Abez when the source left in November 1949. 17

Inta Camp No. 6
A Ukrainian witness in Topol-3 near Dnepropetrovsk stated that he was interned in Inta Camp No. 6 from 1949 through 1955. During that time, the camp held many foreigners of various nationalities. In 1952, a man who claimed to be an American, referred to as Leonid Teryashchenko (a pseudonym), was transferred to Inta. Teryashchenko's real name was never disclosed. His prisoner number had an additional slash and digit following the usual letter and three-digit sequence of the other prisoners. The witness frequently talked to Teryashchenko, who told the witness that he was imprisoned for political reasons. The witness described Teryashchenko as an athletic man with a large frame, a former boxer, approximately 30-33 years old. In late 1953 or early 1954 Teryashchenko committed suicide to avoid further torture. Teryashchenko overpowered one of the guards, took his weapon, and shot himself in the mouth. He was buried in a common grave in the camp (exact location unknown). 18

Inta Camp No. 3
A Polish witness recalled meeting two Americans in Camp No. 3 in Inta in 1954. They worked in his brigade, which was led by Wladyslaw Szyszko. He related that while they were building a bridge one of the Americans jumped into the Kosju River and drowned. 19

A Russian witness claimed that, from 1956 until 1975, the KGB maintained a facility on the shore of the river Inta. In 1965, people were brought to Inta from Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam, where they were imprisoned and killed, and their records burned in the boiler room in the eastern suburb on Shakhtnaya Street. More than 1,000 people ended up in the Inta prison, both American enlisted personnel and officers. The witness claimed that this information could be confirmed by Petr Ivanovich Kuznetsov, who reportedly worked as a driver for the MVD (Ministry of Internal Affairs) for twenty years. He now lives on Mir Street in Inta. Efforts to contact Mr. Kuznetsov during a visit to Inta in October 2000 proved unsuccessful as Mr. Kuznetsov claimed that he was too ill to meet with USRJC representatives who traveled to Inta to speak with him. 20

A Polish witness reported two Americans in a camp in 1949-1950. 21

A CIA source reported in that in 1948 that he met an alleged American citizen who had Polish documents in the name of Fawitsky or Faveleki. The American refused to reveal his true name. He spoke German, Russian, French, and English fluently. Source stated Soviets had a photograph of the reported American in an U.S. enlisted man's uniform. Source last saw this man in Lubyanka Prison in 1951. 22

Inta Minlag
A Russian witness indicated that she had spent four years in the Inta "Minlag" camp complex (1952-1956). During that time, she heard reports of two American flyers in the Inta camp complex in the early 1950s, although she did not see them herself. Some of the women who worked in the central hospital said there were many foreigners in the camp, including two American pilots. According to these reports, the two men were shot down or forced down over Germany after having strayed over Soviet-occupied territory. One of the two was white, while the other had black skin (chernokozhiy). The witness said that these women told her the reputed Americans had been imprisoned since 1946. 23

Inta Mining Camp, Section No. 5
A CIA source reported in 1957 that while interned he became acquainted with an American citizen. This individual was named Jan (John) with a double family name - the first American, the second Polish. He was born in the United States of Polish and French extraction. Jan was a U.S. Army captain stationed in Berlin from 1946 to 1947. The Soviets arrested him in the Soviet Zone while he was visiting his girlfriend. Source last saw Jan in September 1953 at the eye, ear, and nose clinic of the Section No. 5, Barracks 27 hospital. 24

Inta Mining Camp No. 15
A Russian stated that he knew of two Americans in the Inta Gulag system who were detained at Mining Camp Number 15 (circa 1950). The two men were U.S. service members and went by the names of John and Michael. 25

A Lithuanian witness claimed to have met an American Major or Colonel on 15 or 16 February 1950. The American reportedly was captured in the Ukraine during WWII. The witness saw him on two occasions before being sent into exile. 26

Pechora Kozhva (Koschwa)
A German POW reportedly had direct contact with a U.S. Air Force Captain described as being five feet eleven inches tall, 28-33 years old, with reddish hair. The witness last saw him on 5 January 1950. The American claimed that at the end of WWII he was arrested for participating in an altercation at a Moscow restaurant. He was sentenced to ten years in prison. The American spoke broken German. 27

A German interned in Ukhta from 1947 to February 1950 reported meeting and developing a friendship based on an escape plot with an American citizen named James Stafford, who reportedly arrived in Ukhta in 1948. Stafford was born between 1910 and 1914 in Breslau, Germany, where his father worked for the city police. His father immigrated to the U.S. via Czechoslovakia in 1919. Stafford followed with his mother and sister in 1920. Stafford's mother was from Chemnitz, Germany. The family changed their surname from Lenz to Stafford and settled in San Francisco. Stafford attended school in San Francisco and married a South American woman who bore him a son. Stafford claimed to be an American intelligence operative. After six months training, in 1939 he was posted to his first assignment as a radio technician in Spain. During World War II he carried out various missions in Germany until German Counter Intelligence finally captured him in Helsinki. The Germans transported him to Tallinn for execution. When the Russians captured Tallinn, they freed him. The Russians arrested him in 1945 while he was attempting to escape to Finland with a group of Estonian civilians. He was first sent to a camp in Kirov, where he escaped and was recaptured before eventually being sent to Ukhta. Stafford was better known in the camp by his World War II cover name Kurt Nisslone or Nissloni. The Russians knew his American identity but had sentenced him under the name Nissloni Stafford. James Stafford was husky, five foot seven inches tall, 165 pounds, dark hair, gray-blue eyes, prominent cheekbones, short chin, and high forehead. He spoke fluent American English, German with a Silesian dialect, and Russian. Stafford was still in Ukhta when source was transported from camp in February 1950. The day before source departed Stafford requested if source ever returned to West Germany that he contact the nearest American intelligence office and report he had met Stafford in a Russian penal camp. Stafford told him "All you have to do is mention to them that you met K-226 Helsinki and they will know who I am". 28

An earlier report, most likely from the same source, reported almost the exact same information about James Stafford with the additional information that Stafford had worked in Helsinki as an American newspaper journalist and his journalist ID card No. was K-226. 29

Ukhta Camp No. 226/4
A German source interned in a Russian labor camp from January 1949 to December 1953 became acquainted with two alleged members of the U.S. Army who were transferred from the Soviet Prison in Hohenschoenhausen, East Germany to Ukhta Camp No. 226/4 in July 1948. Source had occasional conversations with these individuals between 16 January and 19 July 1949. Source reported meeting a U.S. Army major named Bob. He formerly resided in New York. Stationed in Berlin, the Soviets lured Bob into the Soviet Sector where he was arrested for espionage. Bob was approximately 28 years old, five feet eleven inches, squarely built with dark hair and bright eyes. The second American was an Army sergeant named Jack, approximately 22 years old, five feet three inches, slender, with thin fair hair, a "boxer's" nose, and sunken eyes. Source heard from other convicts that Bob and Jack were transferred to Siberia in autumn 1949. Source stated that a special camp for foreign convicts (Americans, English, French etc.) was located in Siberia. 30

Ust-Ukhta Camp No. 2, No. 3, and No. 14
A German source interned from December 1949 to June 1953 reported meeting two members of the U.S. Air Force. In December of 1949, while confined in Camp No. 3 source heard two individuals speaking English and asked them who they were. They responded that they were Americans who made a forced landing in Kharkov in 1949 when their four-engine bomber lost both right engines. One man was named Harry Rosenberg. Rosenberg showed the source a U.S. Air Force cap which he had in his pocket. It was a gray-blue overseas cap with an airman's U.S. insignia with a silver airman's wing insignia, and one silver horizontal bar. Harry was 26 years old, five feet seven inches, slim with black hair. He had a scar on his upper right arm and spoke some German. In camp he wore a bright blue airman's shirt without pockets. Sometimes he wore a brown-green shirt with two pockets closed with buttons. He wore Russian work clothes in the winter. Source did not recall the second man’s name. He was five feet nine inches, blond, slim, broad-shouldered, and lame in the right leg. He wore similar clothes to Harry Rosenberg's but also had a plain beige tie. Both men were reportedly from New York State. In January 1950 source and the two airmen were transferred to Camp No. 14. In March or April 1950 Harry Rosenberg escaped, making it as far as Kotlas before being caught and returned to Camp No. 14. He was placed in a special prison as punishment. Source was placed in the same prison with Rosenberg a few days later. Ten days later source was released from the special prison back into Camp No. 14. Harry Rosenberg was transferred to the disciplinary barracks in Camp No. 2. In the summer of 1950 a prison gang murdered the second American while robbing him. Source along with three Russian prisoners buried the American in a cemetery containing five thousand graves located 1.24 miles from Camp No. 14. They placed a wooden cross with the letters U.S. made of copper on the grave. Soon after this incident source was transferred to Camp No. 2 where he once again spoke with Harry Rosenberg. In autumn 1951 source saw Harry Rosenberg being escorted through the camp gate by two soldiers. They exchanged a few words. Rosenberg stated he was going to Moscow. This was the last time source saw or heard of Harry Rosenberg. 31

A witness met and spoke with a group of eleven American prisoners in December 1946, at Vorkuta. All were flyers, one was black, and they included both officers and enlisted men. They were kept in a small barracks separated from the rest of the camp and surrounded by barbed wire. The witness claimed these might have been part of a group of American pilots coerced into staying in the Soviet Union after WWII. These pilots claimed to have flown missions against Nazi targets using airfields in the Soviet Union. 32

A German witness reported meeting U.S. Air Force member Bob (last name unknown), in July 1951. Bob had been stationed in Berlin as a U.S. Air Force bombardier. While visiting his girlfriend in the Soviet Sector in 1948 or 1949, he was arrested and sent to Vorkuta. He previously lived in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and spoke only English. Bob was 30-35 years old, five feet eight inches tall, and had dark hair. 33

A source that had been imprisoned in Vorkuta reported meeting an American with the last name "Cox," whose physical description matched that of a West Point cadet named Richard Alvin Cox, who mysteriously disappeared from the U.S. Military Academy on 14 January 1950. 34

However, further investigation and analysis of the primary source document (NBG Team, 7051st Air INTSERON, 7050th Air INTSERGU Air Intelligence Information Report IR-255-56 dated 18 December 1956) 35 indicated the individual named "Cox" encountered by the source was probably Private Homer H. Cox, a U.S. military policeman who was detained by Soviet authorities in East Germany in September 1949. Private Cox was detained in Vorkuta and released on 29 December 1953. 36 He returned to his home state of Oklahoma, and died of pneumonia in 1954. 37

The primary source document stated: COX, first name unknown, from CHICHASHA (3501N/9755E) OKLAHOMA, 30-35 years old, blond, five feet eight inches tall. Source heard from fellow prisoners that this man deserted his military unit in West Germany.

A Lithuanian witness in Vilnius stated that while a prisoner in a camp in Vorkuta he met a prisoner who claimed to be a U.S. WWII pilot named John. 38

A woman from Kiev reported that during interviews with former prisoners in the Vorkuta and Berlag camps, several claimed to have seen American pilots. The pilots were shot down during the Korean War. 39

The son of a Soviet engineer stationed at Vorkuta stated that of the several thousand persons in that camp complex, there were two black American soldiers, an American major, and several British citizens, as well as "other Europeans." 40

In 1962, while living in Vorkuta, a Russian journalist stated that he conducted an expose on the KGB, presumably to highlight its good work at protecting the borders of the Soviet Union. To present his findings, the reporter held a press conference with several KGB officers in attendance. The journalist asked the officers whether there were any U.S. servicemen in Vorkuta. He reported that one KGB officer commented, "Of course we have American prisoners from the Korean War here in Vorkuta." When asked to expound on this, the officer demurred, indicating that he did not want to discuss the issue any further. 41

A female source, who was imprisoned in Vorkuta and Ukhta from December 1947 until December 1953, reported the presence of American or British, and French male prisoners in Vorkuta. Other female prisoners, who spoke French and English, told this to source in March 1953 while working at an excavation site in Vorkuta. The English-speaking male prisoners were supposedly airmen who had been arrested after bailing out of their aircraft. 42

A CIA source reported in 1955 that among the prisoners in Vorkuta was an American citizen named Walter Kovalik. Kovalik was born in 1921. He was missing his right arm. Kovalik was arrested in Mongolia on an unknown date. He gave his address as 4406 South Hermitage Avenue, Chicago, Illinois. His sister Mrs. Frank (Katherina) Sarna lived at the same address. 43

A female Austrian returnee interned from 1946 to 1955 reported meeting an American colonel in Vorkuta. In 1946, source met the alleged American, Colonel Davison, in the Soviet prison located in the basement of a building at Tolbuchkinstrasse 48, Vienna in 1946. The Prison Commander was Lt. Colonel Dobrovolsky. Source's interrogator was named Ivan Ivanovich Petrov. Colonel Davison's case was handled by Colonel Ponomorev, a member of the Soviet element of the Vienna Inter-Allied Command. Colonel Davison was interrogated by a Major Orlov. Davison was approximately 48 years old, and came from Ohio. He was arrested in February 1946 at the Hotel Erzherzog Rainer in IV (Soviet) Bezirk of Vienna after being set-up by an Estonian dancer and Soviet agent named Helena Leit. Source later met Davison in Vorkuta in 1947. When source left Vorkuta in 1950, Davison was ill in the camp hospital. In 1953 in Verkhne-Uralsk source learned from two other American prisoners (see p. 28) that Davison was out of the hospital and still in Vorkuta. 44

Vorkuta Camp No. 1
A CIA source stated in 1954 that a person who claimed to be an American flyer had been in Vorkuta since 1948. 45

Vorkuta Camp No. 1, 9/10, and 11
A German source was interned in Vorkuta from July 1950 to June 1953. On numerous occasions he spoke with a fellow prisoner who claimed to be an American. The prisoner claimed to be a U.S. Army corporal named Bill Matthiuk, a member of the U.S. Occupation Forces in Berlin. He was arrested in Potsdam in 1948 after falling asleep on a train. At the time, he was twenty-five or 26 years old, stout, dark blond with bushy eyebrows. Source last saw him in December 1952. 46 [This is possibly Private William T. Marchuk, U.S. Army. Private Marchuk was reported absent without leave 1 February 1949 in Berlin. He was imprisoned in Vorkuta and other camps in the Soviet Union until his release to U.S. authorities on 8 January 1955.]

Vorkuta Camp No. 3
Repatriated American John Noble reported that shortly after his arrival at Camp No. 3, he had spoken with a Yugoslavian national. The Yugoslav told him that several months before, an American Navy reconnaissance plane had been downed by the Soviets over the Baltic Sea and that eight of the ten crewmembers had survived. The survivors were being held in the Vorkuta area. However, they were told that the United States Government had accepted the official Soviet statement declaring them dead. This effectively doomed their chances of ever returning to America. Noble was never able to identify the survivors by name. However, he heard repeatedly from other inmates who were transferred from one camp to another that Americans were held in the same camps from which the transferees had come. 47

Vorkuta Camp No. 6
A German witness reported that he knew a U.S. Major Schwartz from 1951 until 1952. Schwartz had been stationed in Frankfurt, Germany, when Soviet security police in Kassel, West Germany, kidnapped him in 1949. The American, last seen by the witness in 1952, spoke Russian and English. He was described as being 51 to 56 years old, five feet ten inches to six feet tall, 165 to 175 pounds, dark hair, dark complexion with protruding teeth and a missing upper front tooth.48

Vorkuta Camp No. 6
A returned German reported that, while interned from March 1950 to January 1954 he occasionally conversed with prisoners who claimed to be U.S. citizens. In early 1953 source met a colonel in the U.S. Army, approximately 50 years old, five feet eleven inches, slender with gray hair. He claimed the Russians kidnapped him in the Russian Sector of Vienna in 1948, while he was making a trip by car with his girlfriend. Source stated this prisoner was still in Camp No.6 when he left Vorkuta in January 1954. Once in January of 1954 at the tailor's shop, source met an alleged U.S. Army soldier named Joe, approximately 40 years old, five feet seven inches, slender, with dark blonde hair. Joe had a scar over his right eye and limped on his right leg. He was sentenced to five years hard labor in 1945 and had been "free" since 1950. He lived in exile in the Vorkuta area with a Russian woman. Joe worked as the head of the bath-house for Coal Mine No. 29. 49

Vorkuta Camp No. 9
An Austrian journalist imprisoned in various camps from 1948 until 1954, claimed to have known a naturalized American, Colonel Brandenfels, in Vorkuta in 1951. (Brandenfels was reportedly the name he used before becoming an American citizen.) The American had been stationed in Berlin after WWII and was picked up in a bar in the Soviet Zone. 50

Vorkuta Camp No. 9
While detained in labor camp Number 9 in 1952, a former German POW heard from camp guards and officers rumors of Americans detained in Vorkuta. In early 1952, the camp's security officer, Fedor Nikolayevich Kolesnikov, told the source he had seen the American officers. The source also spoke with the Chief of State Security for Vorkuta, Mishanov, who acknowledged Kolesnikov's statement. The source reported that seven American military prisoners were reportedly detained in the Vorkut Mekhanicheskiy Zavod (The Vorkuta Mechanical Factory) Camp Complex, camp number 23 or 25 - one lieutenant colonel, two majors, two captains, and two civilian engineers. Another American prisoner was detained in Camp No. 9 and worked in Coal Mine No. 8. Source remembers the latter American's name as Johnny Thomson or Johnny Chemson. This American prisoner told the source that he had been the first engineer of an American vessel anchored at Port Author, USSR (no timeframe reported). The engineer went on a short errand ashore, was arrested for illegally entering the harbor area, and sentenced to six to seven years in the Vorkuta Gulag. Source doubted whether the Soviet authorities would release him after he completed his sentence. He believed that the engineer would have been forcibly settled somewhere in the Urals. Source also noted that the Soviet authorities seemed proud of having American officers in custody. 51

Vorkuta Camp No. 13
A German interned from November 1950 to June 1953 reported meeting an American soldier while working in Coal Mine No. 13. In November of 1950 source became acquainted with a man named Frank who claimed to have been an army sergeant in the Berlin motor pool. In early 1949 Frank had been at a restaurant in Berlin-Neukoelln near the border of the U.S.-Soviet sectors. He decided to return home via a short cut through the Soviet Sector. Russian soldiers arrested him while still in the U.S. zone. He was sent to Vorkuta in October 1950 and was transferred to an unknown labor camp in November 1951. Frank was 27 to 30, six feet tall, dark hair, olive skin, broad-shouldered with athletic build. He spoke German with an American accent and Russian. His parents were allegedly Russian. 52

Vorkuta Camp No. 223/III
A German Returnee who was interned from June 1950 to December 1953 reported meeting a man who claimed to be an officer in the U.S. Army. From 1951 to the summer of 1952 the source occasionally spoke with a prisoner who worked as the camp bookkeeper. He spoke fluent English as well as German, French, and Russian. He claimed to be a U.S. Army colonel who at one time was the military attaché in Leningrad. Source described him as approximately 35 years old, five feet eleven inches, slender, with blonde hair and blue eyes. He had a twisted mouth. He left Vorkuta in the summer of 1952. 53

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 1
A Polish witness arrived at Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 1 in 1950. Other prisoners showed him an American Colonel. He appeared about 60 years old, was quite tall, broad-shouldered, and pale. He wore a quilted jacket and did not converse with other prisoners. After some time the camp administration summoned the Colonel, returned his gold ring and watch, and released him from Vorkuta. 54

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 1
A Polish witness claimed to have met an American pilot in the summer of 1946. They could not understand each other, but the witness was able to understand that the pilot "fell down" from a plane. He was tall (six feet), fine-figured, dark-skinned, with an oval face. He looked robust. The witness saw him in the camp for a few days, and did not know what became of the American. 55

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 1
A Polish source who was at this camp in 1954 heard that an American colonel downed over East Germany (near Berlin) was among a group of prisoners who arrived that year. 56

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 6
A Polish witness recalled that an American arrived at the camp around June of 1953. Other prisoners told the witness that the American was a pilot from a spy plane downed by the Soviets. The American was approximately 40 years old, over six feet tall with an oval face and a shaved head, wearing a quilted jacket (like everybody else). His Russian was very poor. The witness saw him while the Polish prisoners were being prepared for release. 57

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 6
In 1954 this Polish witness came into contact with an American and had a short conversation with him (The source's English was poor and the American could not speak Russian). The American stated that he was a colonel in the U.S. Army, captured in Vienna by Soviet agents. He looked about 40 years old, of medium height, thickset, with dark or auburn hair. The witness left the camp in 1953 [sic] and did not know what happened to the American. 58

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 7
A Polish witness reported that he met an American colonel, kidnapped in Berlin. The American recounted that at first he had been sent to Moscow (Lubyanka Prison). He was originally sentenced to death, but the sentence was somehow commuted to 25 years' imprisonment. He was sent to Vorkuta and worked in Coal Mine No. 7, where the source first met him. The witness met him a second time between May and June 1954 in prison in Tayshet, while being moved from Tayshet to Krasnoyarsk. The American told the witness that, after the uprising in Coal Mine No. 7 in Vorkuta in 1953, he had been sentenced to death because of his participation in the uprising. However his sentence was commuted to 10 years in a camp somewhere in the Irkutsk District. The American was of average height with blond hair and was about 45 years old. 59

Vorkuta Mine No. 9
A German witness met a U.S. Navy Ensign named Sobeloff [Sobelev], reportedly captured in China in 1948, when Communist forces took control of the country. Sobeloff claimed to have been the Captain of a U.S. vessel at the time of his capture. He was Russian by birth, but a U.S. citizen. He was last seen at Vorkuta Mine No. 9 in November 1955. 60

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 11
A Polish witness was moved from Coal Mine No. 9/10 to Coal Mine No. 11 in Vorkuta. While at Coal Mine No. 11, he came into close contact with an American officer named Langier, who had been captured by the Soviets somewhere in Eastern Asia and sentenced for espionage. Langier worked at the baths. He spoke some Polish and claimed he had some Polish friends in the USA. The source believed Langier was from Alabama. He was tall, fair-haired and very friendly. Langier sometimes shared food with the source. He also helped him transfer back to Coal Mine No. 9/10 (Langier had a good relationship with the camp doctor). When the witness was released in 1954, the camp at Coal Mine No. 11 no longer existed. The witness assumed that Langier had been moved somewhere else earlier. 61 [There are at least 39 service members missing from WWII with the last name of Lang, Lange, or Langer.

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 16
In 1951 or 1952 a Polish witness remembered meeting a young American 20-25 years old, thin, medium-sized, who spoke Russian and worked at the baths. The witness believed he had been captured in Germany. The witness also heard rumors about an American plane downed over Latvia near the town of Limbava and that the crew was imprisoned in one of the camps. 62

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 29
In 1955, a German source imprisoned in Vorkuta from September 1950 to June 1953 reported meeting an American citizen named Harry. Harry's last name sounded like "Waterwolf", but he was always addressed or referred to as "Ami". Harry spoke almost fluent Russian and some German. The source spoke some English allowing the two to communicate. Harry claimed to be a member of a control board which examined an air crash between an American and a Soviet aircraft in the Soviet Zone of Germany near Berlin. Source could not recall the circumstances of Harry's arrest. He was transported from Berlin to Moscow where he was placed on a transport to Vorkuta with the source. In July 1951, Harry transferred to the camp that served Coal Mines No. 12, 14, and 16. In 1953 while in Moscow, source heard from a fellow prisoner that Harry was still in Vorkuta. Harry's parents were Americans living in Japan when he was born. He was described as 28 years old, six feet one inch tall, dark blue eyes, thin blond hair, very slender with tattooed arms and chest. The left side of his face appeared paralyzed with the skin hanging loose. The red of his left eye was visible. He stated this was the result of an air crash. 63

Vorkuta Coal Mine No. 40
A Polish witness recalled that in early September of 1951 or 1952--after some kind of Russian-American incident in Berlin--a large number of Germans were brought to Vorkuta. They came mostly from Berlin (both East and West) and around 20 ended up in Coal Mine No. 40. One German from this group was about 45 years old, a doctor and disabled soldier who had a platinum plate in his skull. He related that during a rail trip to Vorkuta he had met in the carriage an American major who had been captured on the street in Berlin near the East-West border. He believed there were a total of three Americans in this convoy, and that, at a transfer point, they were directed to other coal mines in Vorkuta. 64

Vorkuta Pit No. 40
Austrian witnesses reportedly met an American who immigrated to the U.S. as a child. His adopted name was Bizet. The Soviets referred to him by his birth name, Wasiljevski. He was supposedly taken prisoner by the Soviets in 1945 in Korea where he was serving with the U.S. Navy. The Soviets reportedly did not recognize him as a U.S. citizen. 65

Vorkuta Transit Camp
A German source reported that in August 1949 he met an individual who claimed to be a U.S. Army colonel. This individual claimed to have been on a secret mission in the Soviet Zone of Germany when arrested. He was described as between 44-45 years old, five feet seven to five feet nine inches tall with dark hair and a slender build. He claimed to have been a spy in Germany during World War II. He spoke fluent German with no accent and was never heard to speak English. 66

Vorkuta Transit Camp
A German source reported that between 4 and 18 October 1949, he saw an alleged U.S. Army colonel. He was in U.S. uniform without insignia, stout, five feet nine inches, 40-45 years old with dark blond hair. Source did not speak with the alleged American; however, German Lt. General Schartz spoke with him in English. General Schartz later told source that the man had claimed to be a U.S. colonel arrested in the Soviet Zone of Vienna. General Schartz did not believe the man was really an American but was an informer posing as one. 67

Vorkuta Transit Camp No. 58
A former German POW claimed to have had direct contact with an Army or Air Force colonel (five feet eleven inches tall with dark blond hair) during the week of August 21-25, 1949. The U.S. colonel spoke perfect German. He claimed to have been dropped behind German lines during WWII to conduct espionage and was captured in East Germany. 68

Vorkuta Distribution Camp No. 61
A former German POW reported direct contact with a U.S. major (five feet nine inches tall with blue-gray eyes, moustache, and slim build) who claimed to have been kidnapped in 1945 while the Americans were still at the Elbe River. The Soviets sentenced him to 25 years for espionage. He wore an American uniform. 69

Vorkuta OLP 8
While in the hospital of separate labor camp sub-sector "OLP 8" from September 1949 to March 1950, a German source was in the same ward as an American citizen. The American's last name ended in "ich". He was 58-60 years old, slender with black hair, between five feet nine and five feet eleven inches tall. The alleged American was born in San Francisco of Yugoslavian decent. He was employed on an American vessel as chief engineer. In 1946, while on a trip from Port Duna, Soviet authorities arrested him in Vladivostok. When source was released from the hospital the American had recovered considerably and was expecting to be repatriated. 70

Vorkuta OLP 9
While detained in separate labor camp sub-sector "OLP 9" in 1953, a former German POW heard from a driver that approximately 19 miles north of Vorkuta was a Camp of Silence (the inmates of the camp did not have to work, and were not eligible for mail privileges). According to the driver, who was an ex-prisoner engaged in hauling supplies to various camps, this Camp of Silence held Americans and British captured in Korea. 71

Camps in the Area of Molotov (Perm)

Molotov (Perm)
A CIA report dated 2 September 1952 cites the location of Soviet transit camps for Prisoners of War from Korea. Following are excerpts from the 1952 report: 72

Since July 1951, according to new information, several transports of Korean POWs passed through the ports of Bukhta (near Vladivostok), Okhotsk and Magadan. Each ship contained 1,000 or more prisoners. Between the end of November 1951 and April 1952, transports of POWs were sent by rail from the Poset railway junction on the Chinese-Soviet frontier. Some were directed to Chita in Eastern Siberia and some to Molotov, European Soviet Russia, west of the Ural Mountains.
Information about non-Asiatic POWs was received on April 30, 1952 from the Gubakha railway station in the Komi-Permyak National District, in Northwestern Siberia. According to this information, about 300 POWs were transported by rail from Chita to Molotov in February 1952. The prisoners were clothed in Soviet-type cotton padded tunics with no distinctive marks. They were first transported from the railway station to the MVD prison and then sent by rail, in a train consisting of 9 wagons, to Molotov on or about April 5, 1952. The train was heavily guarded by railway guards of the MVD.
In March this year transports of POWs passed through from Khabarovsk to Chita and from Chita to Molotov roughly every fortnight. They were in small groups of up to 50 persons. According to latest information, dated 30 June 1952, the prisoners, after arriving in Chita, were first sent to the local MVD prisons, and then, after a sufficient number of them had been assembled, were sent further to Molotov. It is most probable that POWs are undergoing some sort of investigation and selection process while in the MVD prison in Chita. Some of them are retained in prison in Chita for a long time, while others are sent directly by rail to Molotov and other industrial regions in the Ural Mountains.
From December 1951 up to the end of April 1952, several railway transports of American and European (probably British) POWs were seen passing at intervals of 10 to 20 days through the Komi-Permyak National District in Northwestern Siberia. These transports were directed to Molotov, Gubakha (Northeast of Molotov), Kudymkar (Northwest of Molotov), and Chermos on the Kama River North of Molotov. The prisoners were clad in cotton-padded gray tunics and pants and wore civilian caps, so-called "Sibirki". They had no military insignia. They spoke among themselves in English, and they knew no other languages, except a few words of Russian. During the journey they remained locked in heavily guarded wagons and were not allowed to leave them. They received their meals from MVD guards. Each wagon had small windows on two levels. Each window was barred and covered by opaque glass.
According to information gathered between April 1 and 20, a certain number of American POW officers, among whom was a group referred to as the "American General Staff", were kept at that time in the Command of the Military District of Molotov. Some of the POWs were accommodated in the building of the MVD in Molotov, having been subjected most probably to interrogations. They had been completely isolated from the outside world.
In the town of Gubakha and in the industrial regions of Kudymkar and Chermos there were three isolated camps and one interrogation prison for American POWs from Korea, according to information dated February and April 1952. Prisoners kept in the three labor camps were employed on the construction of a new railway line. In one of these camps, called GAYSK about 200 Americans were kept. They were employed in workshops assembling rails and doing various technical jobs. These camps were completely isolated from any civilian camps located in neighborhood. Political control was carried out by the local Party organization, headed by (first name unknown (fnu)) Edovin, a delegate from the Obkom of the Komi-Permyak National District. All these camps were under the charge of (first name unknown) Kalypin, a Soviet officer of unknown rank who was sent from Molotov in February 1952.
In some camps situated near the Gubakha railway, which are called "Zapretchdelanki", [Russian term difficult to translate - means "isolated plots"] about 150 Americans were kept, probably soldiers and NCOs. An interesting thing was that from these camps one to three POWs were taken every few days by officers of the MVD for transportation to Gubakha or Molotov. They never returned to their camps and their fate remained unknown. According to the supposition of persons acquainted with MVD methods, these POWs had been observed in the camps by specially assigned agents of the MVD, who knew the English language and thus were able to identify those individuals who were very hostile to the Communist regime and ideology and those who could be considered sympathetic. Those belonging to the first group were most probably sent either to prison or to especially hard labor camps for extermination; the others were probably sent to special political courses in Molotov.
A stateless refugee who was detained by the Soviets from 14 February 1950 until 18 May 1955 reported meeting five American servicemen. In June of 1954 Source was in a camp near Kirov when a fellow inmate informed him that five Americans were being held in a cell near by. A few days late, source was transferred by train to the Central Dispensary at Solikamsk. The train arrived in Solikamsk at 4:30 pm on 19 June 1954. The prisoners were ordered to disembark and line up by nationality. Source noticed five men to his right and began speaking to the closest in German. The man told source his name was Room or Rum and that he and the other four men were Americans. He was wearing an American or British army uniform without insignia or devices. He was 28 to 33 years old, approximately six feet two inches tall, dark eyes, and brown hair. He had a bad case of eczema on his head. He spoke excellent German. The other four had common faces, wore prisoner clothes, and spoke poor German. Source stated they used German words peculiar to Berlin. Source had the impression Room was the leader of the group. Source spoke with Room for approximately five minutes before the Guard told them to be quiet and marched the five Americans away separately from the group. Room told source that they were being taken to camp in the Molotov area, Gardinsky region, postal district Bondiuk, post office box AM 244 9/2. He requested source notify American authorities if he was ever released. 73 (Note: AM 244 was the postal code for Usol'skii Corrective Labor Camp "Usol'lag" in Solikamsk.) 74

Camps in the Area of Chelyabinsk

An Italian returnee reported meeting an American Army major in a camp in Verkhne-Uralsk in 1953. The American's parents were Hungarian; he was born in the United States. At the end of World War II the major was in Hungary and later was present at the Nurenberg trials. He returned to Hungary as a civilian and was arrested by the Soviet Secret Police. He was sent to prison in Baden, Soviet Zone of Austria, where he spent three years. He was transferred to Verkhne-Uralsk in 1951, remaining there, in poor health, until May 1953, when he was transferred to Moscow. 75

An Austrian woman detained in the Soviet Union from 1946 until 1956 reported meeting two American officers in Verkhne-Uralsk. One gave his name as Captain Peterson who was approximately 30 years old, and claimed he had been kidnapped in Vienna while working at General Mark Clark's headquarters in 1946. Source first met Captain Peterson in 1953 and last saw him in 1955 at Vladimir Prison. The second individual she alleged to have met was Captain Sing Oisman, who was approximately 30 years old at the time and had supposedly been kidnapped in Vienna in 1949. Source last saw Captain Oisman in September 1953 at Verkhne-Uralsk. Both Peterson and Oisman allegedly told source that 27 Americans were being held in the Krasnoyarsk region. 76

Camps in the Area of Novosibirsk

Novosibirsk Transit Prison
During an interview in 1993, a witness in Lithuania described an encounter with Americans at the Novosibirsk Transit Prison around June 1952. The witness stated there were two American pilots in the group of prisoners brought into his small room. The other prisoners (two or three others) were German. The Americans reportedly told him that they had been shot down in Korea. They were dressed in khaki shirts and trousers with no belts. The first American told the source that he was a Captain in the U.S. Air Force. The source could only remember that the Captain was tall and had a red beard. He could not recall any details about the second individual. 77

Camps in the Area of Krasnoyarsk

In his memoirs (provided to the Russian Side in November 1999), a former Soviet citizen quoted seven people who claim to have seen Americans in Kirovskiy. Excerpts from his memoirs: 78

[In the] fall, 1951, a group of American POWs from Korea arrived in a camp by the town Kirovsk, in the Krasnoyarsk area. However, in the beginning of 1952, they disappeared. In any case, during the liquidation of the prison camp during the winter of 1951 and into 1952, they were not part of the prisoners who were transferred to Motygino (to the south)....
A worker from Kirovskiy witnessed how, late at night, during Russian Christmas, a group of 20, maybe slightly more, were led from the camp along the Veniaminovky Road.
Another witness and her friend claimed that during the last days of December 1951, more than 20 prisoners, wearing bare threads and half frozen, were moved along the road to Veniaminovsky.
A witness in Veniaminovky, stated that on Christmas "we had a present which the NKVD delivered to the town (half frozen prisoners). They did not speak Russian. They only said 'American, American,' and 'eat, eat.' ... Then in the morning, around 6 am, they were taken and marched further."
A hunter and driver, from the town of Chinuel, saw from his car, a number of prisoners who did not speak Russian, being marched along the road...this was early in the morning, around Christmas...The next day, around 7 am, he was going back to Kirovsk and saw the prisoner column moving toward the town of Kamenka (and the lake).
One more witness worked in the town of Kirovsk. In February 1952, while hunting, in the area where the Kamenka and Porenda rivers meet, he came across an area where he suspected people were buried. The ground was overturned and his dogs were picking up strange scents.
A list of 22 names of citizens of the USA who were in the camp by Kirovsk during the winter of 1951 to 1952 was put together by a cleaning lady in the camp. She was able to take a pencil to the Americans and have them record their names and addresses on pieces of newspaper. She smuggled these pieces out of the camp, put them in a can and buried them. Many names on the list match those of missing service members from the Korean War. These include:
Foster 1LT Robert Foster, SGT Elmer Foster, and PFC Robert Foster are missing
Hatch SFC Robert Hatch is missing
Leon PFC Chan Jay Park Kim assumed the name "George Leon" upon his capture in order to disguise his Korean heritage... Reported to have died in a POW camp in Korea.
Miller There are 42 missing Millers
Davis There are 39 missing Davis
Johnson, Hubert CPL Herbert Johnson is missing
Morin CAPT Arthur Morin and CPL Fernand Morin is missing
Larson PFC Gerald Larson is missing
Boyar Cpl Andrew Boyer and CPL William Boyer are missing
Fisher There are 8 missing Fishers
Helfand PFC Osvaldo Galvan is missing
Kaiser MSGT George Kyzer is missing

A Polish witness heard from fellow prisoners that two Americans, probably pilots, were in the camp. They were described as being around 30-35 years old. 79

Norilsk Camp No. 4
A Polish witness claimed to have worked with 36-38 American POWs from the Korean War (pilots shot down near Vladivostok) in the early 50s. He recalled the name of one of the prisoners, Scott, but was unsure if this was the first or last name. 80 > [There are 21 service members missing from the Korean War and 96 service members missing from WWII with the last name Scott. Many others have a first name Scott.]

Norilsk Camp No. 4 or No. 5
A Polish witness claimed to have been in the camp with an American for about one year. The American was pudgy and fair-haired, and did not speak Russian. 81

Norilsk Camp No. 5
A Polish witness met an American or English pilot, probably a Captain, in Norilsk in the first half of 1953. This pilot carried out reconnaissance flights during the Korean War, and due to bad weather and instrument failure, landed at Dalny, USSR. He was arrested and sentenced on espionage charges. According to the witness, the pilot was approximately 30 years old, tall, dark- haired, and looked healthy. Under his prison clothes he wore an "English" military blouse. The source did not know the pilot's eventual fate. In May-June 1953 the camp inmates staged an uprising, and in July, the witness, one of the revolt's leaders, was transported to Kolyma, where he stayed until 1956. 82

Norilsk Camp No. 9, Cement Plant No. 5
A witness in Lithuania said that he was working with the third camp division near Cement Plant No. 5 at Norilsk Camp No. 9 in 1953. Camp gossip alleged that a heavily guarded corner facility in the camp was for American POWs from Korea. The witness observed these prisoners from a distance of about 110 yards. They were young white males dressed in prison garb. He felt it was significant that during the prison uprisings in May-June 1954 these special prisoners were quickly removed. He had no idea what happened to them. 83

Norilsk Camp No. 11
A French doctor who was incarcerated in various camps in the Soviet Union from June 1941 until February 1957 reported hearing about an American Air Force officer imprisoned in Camp No. 11 of the Norilsk camp complex near Dudinka. The alleged American officer was attached to the United States Military Aid Group training Turkish pilots in Turkey. In 1951, he made a forced landing inside the Soviet Union near Erevan. The American was still in Norilsk as of September 1953. Source never personally saw this individual. 84

Norilsk Dudinka Transit Camp
A Lithuanian witness reported seeing American WWII officers at the Norilsk Dudinka transit camp in August of 1946. 85

In his memoirs (provided to the Russian Side in November 1999), a source wrote that in the very beginning of 1953, he was sent to handle an emergency situation at the northern mining enterprise called Rybak. One of the technical experts he worked with was a demolition-qualified inmate: tall, exhausted by hunger and the Arctic, with a very characteristic, slightly elongated artistic face. His unnaturally protruding gray eyes in sockets sunken from emaciation revealed someone ill with exophthalmic goiter. In an accent clearly that of an English speaker, he identified himself as a citizen of the United States of America, Allied Officer Dale.

In Norilsk, many years later, a geologist, who had worked with the witness in Udereya at the time in question, related that many of the Americans "who had fallen into our hands in 1945 from the liberated Fascist camps were held in Rybak and probably perished there...." 86 [LT Harvey Dale and LT William Dale are both missing from WWII.]

During a visit to Krasnoyarsk in September 2001, the Director of the human-rights organization "Memorial" confirmed the existence of Rybak. He commented that Rybak was a top-secret uranium mine located on the Leningradskaya River. Unlike the majority of Gulag camps, Rybak was not subordinate to the MVD. It is not known what entity controlled Rybak, but it is known that several Soviet geologists worked at the camp. The camp was centered on a mining shaft, and the uranium ore was placed into river ships for transport. Because the camp produced very little uranium it was eventually destroyed and traces of the camp removed. No known archival records or memoirs of the camp exist. The Memorial director knew of the camp only through acquaintances that served as geologists for the Soviet Union. 87

Unknown Location
While serving his sentence in the Krasnoyarsk Kray in 1949-1950, a Russian witness met with Japanese and Korean prisoners of war and conversed with them. They told him that, along with them, several Americans arrived at the labor camp sub-sector (Lagpunkt) who had been prisoners of war of either the Japanese or the Koreans; later they (Americans, Japanese, Koreans) all became prisoners of the Russians. 88

Camps in the Area of Irkutsk

Camp No. 19
A Ukrainian witness was sent to the Irkutsk Oblast in 1959. During a brief stay in Camp No. 4, he heard rumors that Americans were being held in Camp No. 19, about five miles away. He said he heard the part of Camp No. 19 which housed the Americans was a particularly high-security zone, surrounded by an eight-yard fence, with several feet of barbed wire.

After having been caught stealing bread, he was sent to Camp No. 19 in March 1959, and was immediately thrown into the "BUR" (Barak Usilennogo Rezhima - Disciplinary Barracks), located near the bathhouse and guard tower. Inside he was thrown on top of the badly bloodied bodies of two men lying on a makeshift table. He said that lying next to the bodies were seven gold teeth and part of an artificial jaw. It was obvious that the men had been beaten and had their teeth knocked out. He said that he could not recall whether the teeth were completely covered with gold, or just the crowns. The guards told him that the bodies were those of American officers and that the same would happen to him if he did not obey the rules. The witness said that it was impossible to discern the color of their skin or even guess at their age, due to the ferocity of the beatings. He said that he was sent off to wash up and that when he returned, the bodies were no longer there. He later heard that the bodies were buried by the fourth guard tower, and the prisoners' clothes were doused with gasoline and burned. The witness added that he had heard rumors that there were another 18 Americans housed in the camp, aside from these two. He said these prisoners were gradually killed off between May and July 1959. He claimed approximately once a week, one of these prisoners was taken out, forced to dig his own grave, stripped, and then shot. The camp guards told him these victims were U.S. aircrews that had been taken prisoner in Korea. They were buried outside the camp, near the guard tower, separately from the other prisoners. He added this was not in the local cemetery, which was also located just outside the camp.

The witness could not recall the camp commandant's name. He recalled the surnames of two camp guards, Popov and Ivanov, but could not remember their first names or patronymics. 89

A former German POW reported direct contact with U.S. Army Captain Johnny Anderson from 1951-1953. Captain Anderson was reportedly stationed in Berlin in 1946, and was arrested while drunk in the Soviet sector. The source believed he might have been in the Air Corps. 90 [Captains John R. Anderson and John A. Anderson are missing from WWII. There are an additional four Captains missing with the last name of Anderson.]

A female German prisoner detained in Irkutsk Prison Camp No. 9 from September 1949 to May 1953 reported that a female Lithuanian prisoner told her about a prison camp in Tayshet that contained approximately seven hundred male American, British, and French prisoners. These prisoners did not work. The female Lithuanian prisoner had spent time in Tayshet, but did not know where or how these men were taken prisoner. 91

Taishet Camp No. 20, Farm No. 25
A Japanese returnee reported that in the period of 1949-1950 he had direct contact with an American flyer, about 40 years old, tall, with a ruddy complexion. The flyer was shot down over the Baltic States while on an aerial reconnaissance mission and sentenced to 20 years. He was burned in the crash, leaving scars on his right cheek and left leg, necessitating the use of a cane. He spoke some Russian. 92

Taishet Special Camp No. 6
A Latvian witness reported he had knowledge of three U.S. POWs in Tayshet camps from the period 1949-1951.

He met the first American in 1950, in Tayshet Special Camp No. 6, where he worked as a barber. This camp held primarily French, Indians, and people from the Baltic States. The American was a U.S. military officer taken in 1949 from Austria. During his capture, he had been hit on the head, resulting in a skull fracture. He was Caucasian, about five foot nine inches tall, had light brown hair, blue eyes, was 30 years old and from New Jersey. He was at the camp until 1951, when he was released to exile in Krasnoyarskiy Kray.

The witness saw a second Caucasian American in Special Camp No. 6 during the summer of 1951, but does not know if he was civilian or military. This individual was either brought in blind, or simulated blindness, and was approximately 30 years old. The American escaped, and his fate is unknown.

The witness saw a third American in Special Camp No. 6, who was Caucasian, and around 40 years old. The American was transferred to another camp. The new camp and the fate of the American are unknown.

The witness also cited rumors at the time of his captivity that at least some of the crew from the U.S. aircraft shot down on 8 April 1950, were taken alive and sent to camps. 93

Taishet-Bratsk Chuna Camp No. 19
A Polish witness claimed that at the end of the summer of 1951 or 1952, an American escaped from Camp No. 19 at Chuna, on the Tayshet - Bratsk railway, 90 miles from Tayshet. 94

Unknown Location
A resident of Irkutsk claimed his mother had seen an American prisoner in March 1946, while working as a porter on a train carrying NKVD prisoners from the Far East. The porters were ordered to bury eight of the prisoners who were believed dead, but one of the eight was still breathing so she took him in. He died a week later, but before he died he indicated he was an American. The source believed his name was something like, "Fred Kolin or Kollinz." The American drew a picture indicating an aircraft being shot down and three people possibly bailing out of the aircraft. 95 [There are three Fred Collins missing from WWII. There are an additional 89 service members with the last name of Collins.]

Taishet Labor Camp No. 4
In February 1954 a repatriated German commented during a U.S. Air Force debriefing that he met four U.S. servicemen in the summer of 1947 at a sub-camp of Tayshet Labor Camp No. 4. 96

For two days in July 1947, the source was billeted in a sub-camp of Tayshet Labor Camp No. 4. The camp was located in the forest 34 miles east of Tayshet, and consisted of two 2.5 by 1.5 mile compounds which housed thousands of penal laborers of various nationalities. While there the source met four Americans between the ages of 28 and 36. He described them as over five feet nine inches tall and broad-shouldered with close-cropped hair. They wore khaki denims with a pocket on the trouser. The Americans, the source and some Latvian prisoners were all able to communicate with one another through their broken German. The Americans told the source that they were members of the American Air Force who had been stationed in Vienna. In 1946 Soviet soldiers arrested them at the Vienna Prater Park. They were transported to Moscow and tried for espionage. While in Moscow they where kept in underground cells, repeatedly beaten, and interrogated. The Soviets sentenced them to 25 years in a labor camp. At the end of 1946 they were transferred to Tayshet Labor Camp No. 4. The source was unable to give any names but made it a point to keep track of the Americans through fellow prisoners who worked on the Tayshet-Bratsk railroad line. He was certain that the Americans were still working on the railroad line when he left Tayshet in February 1950.

Taishet Camp No. 26
A German civilian returnee reported meeting U.S. Air Force Major William Thompson. According to the source, Major Thompson made a forced landing, and was arrested by the Russians, who sentenced him to twenty five years for espionage. He spent the years 1944 to 1948 in Budenskaya Prison in Moscow. He was transferred to Tayshet Camp No. 26. Major Thompson was approximately 38 years old, six feet one inch tall, slim, fair hair, and had blue eyes. His home was in San Antonio, Texas. 97 [Major Wirt Elizabeth Thompson, U.S. Air Force, departed Myitkyina, Burma 4 December 1944 on a mission to Kunming, China. He was reported shot down and is listed as missing in action. Major Thompson, also known as Worth and William, was born in Italy, Texas and attended high school in San Antonio.]

Vikhorevka (southwest of the city of Bratsk)
A former Gulag prisoner and ethnic Estonian source reported that while detained in the village of Vikhorevka in the zone reserved for foreigners, he met an American serviceman named Thomas (last name unknown). Thomas said that he was a U.S. pilot from the Korean War. The source reported that Thomas was 35 years old when he met him in 1953. Thomas was five feet five inches to five feet seven inches tall and walked with a limp. Thomas was assigned to work on the camp water tower. 98

Camps in the Area of Yakutsk

On 15 October 1957, a Polish witness visited the American Consulate in Strasbourg, France. He stated he was held in a prison camp in Bulun until July 1957 and reported seeing the following Americans:

Watson, an American professor of physics captured in Vienna,
Dick Rozbicki, an American soldier captured during the Korean War,
Stanley Warner, an American soldier captured during the Korean War, and
Jan Sorrow, an American soldier captured during the Korean War. 99

Bulun Camp No. 217
On 20 September 1957, two Polish witnesses visited the American Consulate in Genoa, Italy. Both men claimed to have been WWII POWs held captive in Bulun Camp No. 217. They had escaped on 6 May 1957. They claimed to have made their way across the USSR, Rumania, and Yugoslavia, entering Italy on 18 September 1957. They reported that two men who claimed to be American army officers captured during the Korean War had been transferred to Bulun Camp No. 217 from another camp on 24 July 1955.

The men were: Stanley Rosbicki, approximately 24 years old, of Buffalo, New York and Jack Watson, 38 or 39, of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Both were infantry Lieutenants. 100

Bulun Camp No. 307
On 5 September 1960, a Polish witness visited the American Embassy, Brussels, Belgium. He stated he had been imprisoned in Bulun Camp No. 307 for seven and a half years and was released on 1 May 1960. He reported seeing two U.S. Army personnel captured in Korea: Ted Watson, an infantry lieutenant, and Fred Rosbiki, a commando or paratroop sergeant. 101

Bulun Camp No. 315
A Catholic priest visited the U.S. Embassy in Paris on 11 July 1958 to report an interview he had recently conducted with a former Polish Gulag prisoner. The prisoner told the priest that he had recently escaped from North Siberia where he had been held in Bulun Camp No. 315. He claimed to have been acquainted with two Americans in the same camp: a chaplain, John Westley, captured in Korea in 1952, and a lieutenant, Stanley Rosbicki, from New York. The witness further advised the priest that the two Americans, who appeared to be in good health, had requested that he convey this information to the American authorities for transmittal to their families. 102

A CIA report dated 2 September 1952 cites the location of Soviet transit camps for Prisoners of War from Korea. Excerpts from the 1952 report: 103

Those POWs who arrived by ship in the ports of Bukhta, Okhotsk and Magadan were then transported by train, or by trucks or by motor-driven barges, to Vaikaren on the Chukotsk Sea, to Ust Maisk on the river Aldan and to Yakutsk on the river Lena.
POW camps of Koreans in the Yakutsk A.S.S.R. are situated between Ust Maisk and Yakutsk. Prisoners there are employed in building new shafts for coal mines, earthworks and dams. The camps are situated 30 to 125 miles from one another and contain 500 to 1,000 prisoners each. Soldiers of the MVD guard them. The camps and inmates are under the supervision of the Ministry of Coal Production or the Ministry of Forests. The chief over all camps in this region was, in April 1952, a civilian functionary (fnu) Andreev. The commandant of the MVD units assigned to guard the camps was Col. (fnu) Vassilevsky. The prisoners are doing very heavy physical work and are living under primitive conditions. In one of the camps in this region, called AMGA, about 300 POWs died in February and April 1952 as a result of serious illnesses and overwork. Over 400 of them were placed in very crude barracks for the sick.
A Sakha-Yakutian government representative reported that her grandmother lived in Bulun at the end of World War II and worked as a seamstress in the Bulun Gulag. In the late 1940's, her grandmother routinely met American, Lithuanian, Estonian, Polish, and Finnish prisoners of war. The source reported that her grandmother kept a diary, which documented her time in the Gulag and her acquaintance with Americans. The Bulun Gulag, located at the mouth of the Lena River (N 70° 44.280' E 127° 21.281') was a fishing camp - male prisoners worked in the fishing industry and female prisoners sewed clothes and prison uniforms. Today nothing is left of the camp except for an underground fish storage cell. The source's grandmother died in 1996. 104

On 13-14 November 1997 a JCSD team traveled to Taganrog to conduct an interview with a source who claimed to have personal knowledge of a U.S. Korean War POW living in Yakutiya (now officially called The Sakha Republic) as late as 1983. Source had contacted the U.S.-Russia Joint Commission through a journalist, who in November of 1997 wrote an article in the Russian newspaper Sovershenno Sekretno based on the source's story. 105

Source told the team that in 1975 he traveled to Yakutiya, in Northeast Siberia, as part of a scientific expedition. He and some other comrades returned the next year to the village of Topolinyy to earn some extra money as seasonal laborers, building a boarding school for local children. There he met an individual known only as "Kolya", also nicknamed "Kon'" ("The Horse"). Local rumor had it that Kolya was a former prisoner who had been sent to Yakutiya, after being convicted as an American spy. At the time, Kolya was around 50 years old and in excellent physical condition, although he was unsociable and drank heavily.

Some foreign-language students from Yakutsk State University came to the area that summer and would sometimes practice English among themselves. One time Kolya, having drunk heavily, began to use a number of what the source described as English words. (Note: source admitted that he does not know English himself, other than the phrase, "the best," which Kolya taught him. Kolya himself spoke excellent Russian, but with a slight accent.) One of the Yakut students learned from Kolya that his real name was "Oscar".

Kolya gradually opened up to the source and, during the course of several talks, stated that he was born in a midwestern state in the USA. The source could not remember which one in particular but recalled that it was neither a northern nor a southern state and definitely not Texas. His father was a prosperous farmer, who had a wife and three children: Kolya, and two older sisters. Kolya was the first in his family to choose a military career, having completed a military high school. He entered the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, then transferred to the Naval Academy at Annapolis. After graduating, Kolya attended courses at Quantico, Virginia, and was commissioned a 2d Lieutenant in the U.S. Marine Corps in 1949.

Kolya told the source that he had served in the Korean War in the 3d Company, 2d Battalion, 1st Marine Division, assigned to the U.S. Army X Corps. The source was unable to remember the designation for Kolya's regiment. Kolya said that he took part in the Inchon landing on 15 September 1950. (Note: the 1st Marine Division was assigned to the U.S. Army's X Corps during the Inchon landing on 15 September 1950. Marine companies are alphabetically designated, not numerically. The three Marine infantry regiments assigned to the 1st Marine Division were the 1st, 5th, and 7th Marines, and the division artillery regiment carried the designation of the 11th Marines). Kolya stated that he was supposed to have been decorated and promoted prior to his capture in November 1950. Kolya blamed General Ridgeway for his capture. (Note: Ridgeway assumed command of the 8th Army on 26 December 1950).

Kolya stated that on the night he was captured, his company was located next to the 1st British Battalion. Two other Americans were captured along with him, one of whom was black. They were taken to Mukden, China. He never saw the other two again. In Mukden he was kept in solitary confinement and tortured for 20 months by his Chinese captors. The source later said that he saw numerous scars on Kolya's legs.

Kolya was then transferred to Khabarovsk, USSR, where his captors again kept him in solitary confinement and unsuccessfully tried to recruit him as a spy. After seven months he was transferred to Yakutiya and forced to sign a statement promising not to reveal any details of his captivity, upon pain of death. He was amnestied in 1956, but forced to remain in the area in permanent exile. Afterwards, Kolya made his living working odd jobs. He even "married" twice to two local women - one who drowned in the Tompo River, and a second, who bore him a daughter.

The source said that Kolya became especially attached to him when he found out that the source's father had served in Washington, D.C. As the source was preparing to return to Kiev, Kolya asked him to pass a letter on to the U.S. Embassy, since he knew that the source would be returning through Moscow. It was at this point Kolya admitted that he was an American citizen.

However, instead of handing over the letter at the American Embassy, the source showed the letter to his father, who became quite angry. The source's father had a lifelong hatred of Americans and pointed out the danger in which the source was putting his family. The source said that his father tore the letter up and told him not to get involved in such matters anymore. He added that his father could read English but refused to tell the source Kolya's real name from the letter.

The source saw Kolya several more times over the years during subsequent trips to Yakutia. The last time was in 1983, in the village of Teplyy Klyuch. When source traveled to Teplyy Klyuch in 1986, he was told that Kolya had returned to Topolinyy.

Kolya reportedly left a glass jar with several letters in English, explaining who he was. The source admitted to the team that he had not seen Kolya write nor bury these letters. He explained they had agreed beforehand that Kolya would leave behind some sort of evidence in a mutually agreed upon place in the event that anything should happen to him.

Source had planned to return to Yakutiya on 25 November 1997 to attempt to determine Kolya's fate. 106

From 14-22 August 1998 a JCSD investigator, accompanied by the source, traveled to Sakha-Yakutiya in Northeast Siberia, to investigate the reports of the U.S. Korean War POW. The team was unsuccessful in developing significant information on the case of the individual known as "Kolya the Horse".

On 19 August the team finally reached the confluence of the Tompo and Deline Rivers. This was the spot, according to the source, where Kolya buried a jar, allegedly containing a written description of his identity. The source immediately spotted a wooden shack situated on the far bank and announced that this was the spot. However, he quickly determined that the hiding spot no longer existed because the bank had obviously suffered considerable erosion during the spring thaw. He rechecked his bearing several times, but always with the same conclusion. At this point there was nothing left to do, and the team returned to Teplyy Klyuch.

One rumor had placed Kolya in the Ust-Nera area as of 1983, from where he had supposedly gone to work in the mines at Sarylakh. This was well to the northeast of the team's present location and even further into the Taiga. A later rumor placed an apparently intoxicated Kolya loitering at the Yakutsk airport in 1985.

Another rumor placed Kolya in Yakutsk two years after the reported Ust-Nera sighting. The team decided the best course of action was to return to the city of Yakutsk, which they did. They talked to several people in the area but could find no further information about Kolya. 107

In March of 2002, the JCSD Gulag Research Team traveled to Yakutsk, Tiksi, and Bykovskiy in the Republic of Sakha-Yakutia. They interviewed numerous villagers, long-term residents, government officials, human rights workers, and members of the media. During a meeting with high-level members of the government, media, and several representatives of the human rights organization Memorial in Yakutsk, the story of Kolya was broached by a senior member of the government who had come to the meeting with a copy of the Sovershenno Sekretno article. The Russian Memorial Society representatives present noted that Kolya had a daughter. They were familiar with the area where Kolya had lived and volunteered to attempt to find Kolya's daughter. This effort is continuing.

While conducting interviews in Tiksi, a local native and long-time resident of Kyusyur (a town located across the Lena River from the remains of Bulun) provided a map and detailed information of a system of secret camps that existed along the left (west) bank of the Lena in the 1950s. These camps were said to have held Caucasian prisoners, were off limits to the local indigenous tribal people and had fences. The camps on the right bank of the Lena were Special Resettlement Camps and did not have fences. The most secret of the left-bank camps was nicknamed "Kazarma" ["Barrack" in Russian] and designated No. 315. It was located a few miles south of Bulun. A local anthropologist independently confirmed that a secret camp known as "Kazarma" had previously existed south of Bulun.

Camps in the Area of Chita

A CIA report dated 2 September 1952 cites the location of Soviet transit camps for Prisoners of War from Korea. Following are excerpts from the 1952 report: 108

There were previous transport of POWs from Chita between August and November 1951. These were directed to Kotlas on the Northern Dvina and to Lalsk, southeast of Kotlas, both in the Archangelsk Oblast. The total number of POWs transported in this direction amounted to about 6,000 at the end of 1951. Their fate is not known.
In March of 1951, transports of POWs passed through from Khabarovsk to Chita and from Chita to Molotov roughly every fortnight. They were in small groups of up to 50 persons. According to latest information, dated 30 June 1952, the prisoners, after arriving in Chita, were first sent to the local MVD prisons, and then, after a sufficient number of them had been assembled, were sent further, to Molotov. It is most probable that the POWs were undergoing some sort of investigation and selection process while in the MVD prison in Chita. Some of them are retained in prison in Chita for a long time, while others are sent directly by rail to Molotov and other industrial regions in the Ural Mountains.

Camps in the Area of Magadan

Magadan Berlag
A Ukrainian witness from Gribenko was transferred from Vanino Bay to Magadan Berlag in 1950, where he remained until his release in 1960. The witness stated that in the summer of 1954 a large group of foreign prisoners, perhaps as many as 2000, were brought to Magadan Prison. This group included three Americans. When asked how he knew they were Americans, he replied that it was common knowledge, and everyone knew it. The Americans were in regular prison garb, but upon arrival at the Berlag were ordered to remove their prison numbers from their shirts and hats. While working as a medic in the camp, he was asked to examine one of the Americans for tropical skin ulcers. Due to the color of the man's skin and the thickness of his lips, the witness thinks this American was a Mulatto. When asked if he had talked with the individual, the witness stated that he had not because it was strictly forbidden. He went on to say that the three prisoners were young, all had brown hair, and all appeared to be in good health. 109

Mokhoplit village
On 29 March 1996, an interview was conducted with a Russian living in Yekaterinburg, who spent from 1952-1970 in various Gulags, to include Kolomna, Indigirka, and Chukhotka. He claimed to have seen an American citizen in 1956/57 in the Magadan Oblast, at Mokhoplit Village, in the Tentiskiy gold mining region. This U.S. citizen, Azat Tigranovich Petrosian, was born in Armenia in the 1920s, and somehow wound up in a Nazi POW camp that was liberated by the Soviets. The Soviets refused to repatriate him and sent him to the Gulag. The source did not know Petrosian's eventual fate. 110

Myaundzha (near Susuman)
On 12 August 1996, a witness living in Moscow delivered a written response to the Radio Liberty program, "Americans in the Gulag," being played on Radio Liberty/Voice of America. She had worked at the Directorate of the PTU (Professional Technical Academy) Energostroy for the electrical power station in Myaundzha, Magadan Oblast, from 1955-63, then in Magadan until 1965, when she moved to Moscow. In the letter, the witness told of a Rudolf Martinovich Benush (1917-1995), who allegedly served as a U.S. Army Captain during the Nuremberg Trials. The witness worked with Benush, who was referred to as the American spy, "either in derision, or in reference to the article under which he was convicted" (Article 58), when he was a "trustee" prisoner in the Myaundzha camp in Magadan Oblast near Susuman in 1955, until his release in 1956. The camp had 3,000 prisoners, mostly Baltic and Ukrainian nationalists. Benush spent the majority of his remaining years in Magadan. 111

Chukotskaya Kult'haza
A returned German POW stated that when he arrived at a forced labor camp near Chukotskaya Kult'haza in April 1948, he met a man who claimed to be a U.S. national. The source said the man spoke German with an accent and was fluent in Russian. He claimed to have been born in the United States, and was a pilot sentenced to 20 years' hard labor for espionage. The alleged American was 30 years old, approximately five feet nine inches tall, broad-shouldered, oval-faced, with brown hair. The man wore prison clothes with a brown uniform jacket. He often spoke of escaping to Alaska across the Bering Straits. The source lost track of the man when the source was transferred in May 1949. In February 1950, he heard fellow prisoners that the alleged American was working in a tungsten mine near Chukotskaya Kult'haza. 112

Unidentified Hospital
A Japanese witness saw and spoke for about 20 minutes with an American in room No. 2, first medical section, at a hospital in Magadan. A hospital attendant named Nikolai told him the American was a captain who had crashed in the vicinity of Kamchatka. During the conversation, the American stated, "I cannot accept the sentence of being a spy. The sentence of 15 years based on Item 6 of Article 58 is unjust." He appeared to be about 28 years old, with blond hair and blue eyes. 113

A CIA report dated 2 September 1952 cites the location of Soviet Transit Camps for Prisoners of War from Korea. Following are excerpts from the 1952 report: 114

In December it was known that transit camps for prisoners of war captured by the Communists in Korea had been established in Komsomolsk on the Amur, Magadan on Bogaeva Bay in the Sea of Okhotsk, Chita and Irkutsk. Through those transit camps were passing not only Korean POWs but also American POWs.
Since July 1951, according to new information, several transports of Korean POWs have passed through the ports of Bukhta (near Vladivostok), Okhotsk and Magadan. Each ship has contained 1,000 or more prisoners. Between the end of November 1951 and April 1952, transports of POWs were sent by rail from the Poset railway junction on the Chinese-Soviet frontier. Some were directed to Chita in Eastern Siberia and some to Molotov, European Soviet Russia, west of Ural Mountains.
Those POWs who arrived by ship in the ports of Bukhta, Okhotsk and Magadan were then transported by train, or by trucks or by motor driven barges, to Vaikaren on the Chukotsk Sea, to Ust Maisk on the river Aldan and to Yakutsk on the river Lena.
POWs shipped to Vaikaren were sent to a network of camps in the Nizhni Kolymsk region on the East Siberian Sea, to be employed building roads, electric power plants and airfields. Their number varies considerably due to high mortality and to transfer to other camps on the Chukotski Peninsula. All these camps are under supervision of MVD and are entirely isolated. There were about 12,000 Korean POWs in April 1952 in the Nizhno Kolymsk camp network. The camps were under the charge of (fnu) Sorotchuk, a Major of MVD and (fnu) Chimbo, a civilian Party functionary, probably an employee of MGB. Chimbo was in charge of education and political indoctrination.
A Polish source stated that in 1955 he saw an alleged Ukrainian-American soldier who was allegedly captured in North Korea and transferred to the Soviet Union by the Intelligence Services. The man wore civilian clothes and was the only American in the camp. The source was released in 1956. 115

Camps in the Area of Khabarovsk

A Russian living in Semipalatinsk, Kazakhstan, reported that in November 1952, he saw three American prisoners at the "5M Lagpunkt" detention facility in Khabarovsk, Russia, where he was incarcerated. He went on a woodcutting detail with one of them. In December 1952 the Americans were transferred out of the camp for an unknown destination. A Russian female prisoner serving a sentence for "Betraying the Motherland" accompanied the Americans. The camp commander was Lieutenant Kuzenkov. 116

Khabarovsk Prison
A Japanese repatriate who was in Khabarovsk Camp No. 21 from 1950-1953, heard from Soviet guards, prisoners, and laborers in April or May of 1953, that 12-13 Americans from a military plane shot down by the Soviets were in Khabarovsk Prison. Source heard from a Soviet guard in October 1952 that two Americans had been brought to Khabarovsk Prison and were being investigated as spies. In June 1952, source heard from prison train guard at Khabarovsk Station Number 2 that there was a prison camp in the USSR solely for American prisoners. 117

A CIA report dated 2 September 1952 cites the location of Soviet Transit Camps for Prisoners of War from Korea. Following are excerpts from the 1952 report: 118

In March this year transports of POWs passed through from Khabarovsk to Chita and from Chita to Molotov roughly every fortnight. They were in small groups of up to 50 persons. According to latest information, dated June 30, 1952, the prisoners, after arriving in Chita, were first sent to the local MVD prisons, and then, after a sufficient number of them had been assembled, were sent further, to Molotov. It is most probable that POWs are undergoing some sort of investigation and selection process while in the MVD prison in Chita. Some of them are retained in prison in Chita for a long time, while others are sent directly by rail to Molotov and other industrial regions in the Ural Mountains.

In his memoirs (made available to the Russian Side in November 1999) a source quotes four people who claim to have knowledge of the June 1952 RB-29 crew and their incarceration in Svobodny. Excerpts from his memoirs: 119

A former fishing vessel radio operator related that the Captain of his fishing vessel told him that "not all the crew members of the American [aircraft] had, in fact, died back then (in June) and that ten of those people were now in pre-trial solitary confinement in a prison in the city of Svobodny, near Blagoveshchensk."

A former Dalstroy official "was not in the least surprised by [his] question. He replied at once: 'Yes, at first ten people were alive. Yes, first they were brought to Khabarovsk. But, then, of course, they were sent off to Svobodny ... They were supposed to have been met by people from the Ministry of Defense ... They were not met, though. You see, there was some screw-up in Moscow. Well, I can tell you that they were not met. What happened to them after that, I do not know. And I would advise you not to know as well ... Let the leadership worry itself about it ..."

A second former Dalstroi official repeated almost word-for-word the testimony of [the first Dalstroi official] but went on to clarify: "The guys from within 'worked over' the Americans so badly that only eight were taken to Svobodny."

A construction official who worked extensively in the Far East and was also an advisor to a minister stated that "he did learn the names of two crewmembers of that aircraft, Bush and Moore, who will forever remain in the soil of the Khabarovsk Region." [Along with 10 other crewmembers, Major Samuel Busch and Master Sergeant David Moore were shot down by Soviet fighters on 13 June 1952. The entire crew remains missing.]

According to a Ukrainian citizen who lives in Kiev, seven American servicemen - three of them pilots whose plane had strayed into Soviet territory because of mechanical difficulties - were incarcerated in 1952, in a prison camp called "Verkhniy" in the town of Lultin in Khabarovsky Kray. The prisoners' primary contact was with a Japanese doctor named Matsuoko. During their detention, three of them were killed in a mining accident, and the four others were transferred to another camp. 120

Camps in the Area of Primorskiy Krai

Air Force Hospital 404
While training for parachute duties in 1951, a witness broke his leg and was sent to an Air Force hospital, number 404, in the small town of Staraya Sysoyovka, Primorskiy Krai, between Arsenyev and Novosysoyevka. Due to lack of space, he was given a bed on the second floor in the corridor next to a room with three American patients. One was able to walk, the second was in traction and the third was burned. He clearly remembered the face of one of the Americans. He was blond, no younger than 25 years of age. He thought the blond person was the pilot. The witness was able to talk to and see the patients, as well as listen to their dialogue during questioning. He stated that the first patient was between 22 and 27 years of age, had light colored hair, was thin, had blue eyes, and bent over with a visible limp. His height was about six feet tall. Patient one said he was from Cleveland and had two children. The witness said the second and third patients appeared older. He had no other description, other than to say that they were from San Francisco, Chicago, and Los Angeles. He could not say which patient was from which city. 121

Vanino Bay
In 1947, a Ukrainian witness from Gribenko was moved from Lvov to the Vanino Bay Transit Prison in the Soviet Far East where he remained for about two years, 1948-49. He claimed there were numerous American prisoners awaiting movement to other prisons. He believed the Americans were from WWII. The witness described the layout of the Vanino Bay Transit Prison as consisting of 15 separate zones, each holding 5,000-7,000 prisoners, and that the Americans were housed in zone No. 2. All prisoners were moved to Kolyma by the ships: "Felix Dzerzhinski," "Nagin," "Dyurma," and "Dalstroi." Whenever these ships passed by Hokkaido, the crew put on civilian attire so the Japanese would not know they were prison ships. 122

A Russian stated that an acquaintance of his who lived in Artem, a northern suburb of Vladivostok, said that as a little boy in the early 1950's, he saw a column of about 100 American POWs marching near the town. When asked how he knew they were Americans, he stated that it was "well-known" (in the village.) 123

A CIA report dated 2 September 1952 cites the location of Soviet transit camps for Prisoners of War from Korea. Following are excerpts from the 1952 report: 124

Since July 1951, according to new information, several transports of Korean POWs have passed through the ports of Bukhta (near Vladivostok), Okhotsk and Magadan. Each ship has contained 1,000 or more prisoners. Between the end of November 1951 and April 1952, transports of POWs were sent by rail from the Poset railway junction on the Chinese-Soviet frontier. Some were directed to Chita in Eastern Siberia and some to Molotov, European Soviet Russia, west of Ural Mountains.
Those POWs who arrived by ship in the ports of Bukhta, Okhotsk and Magadan were then transported by train, or by trucks or by motor driven barges, to Vaikaren on the Chukotsk Sea, to Ust Maisk on the river Aldan and to Yakutsk on the river Lena.

Camps in the Area of Kazakhstan

Karaganda Camp No. 4718/19
A German returnee who was interned in a prisoner of war camp from February 1947 to May 1950 reported meeting two U.S. citizens. Both Americans were reportedly members of the occupation forces, spoke German fluently with accents and claimed their parents were born in Germany. In late 1945, they crossed into the Eastern Zone of Germany to visit relatives, were arrested, and transported to the Buchenwald camp. Following a conviction for espionage they were transferred to Karaganda, USSR. The source described them as follows:

One American had the first name "Pit". He was born in the United States; parents from Schleswig-Holstein, Germany. He wore a U.S. Army khaki uniform without insignia. He was approximately 18-20 years old. He was five feet seven inches tall, brunette hair, sharp pale slim face, and had a strong slender build.

The next American had the first name "Tom". He was born in United States; parents from Rhine region of Germany. He wore a U.S. Army khaki uniform without insignia. He was five feet three inches tall, fair hair, blue eyes, round pale face, and had a strong build. Tom worked in the camp hospital and was known as a good surgeon.

Pit escaped in the winter of 1947. He was captured and returned to camp two days later, badly beaten. Both men were continuously interrogated. In the winter of 1948 (probably February) they were transferred to an unknown location. The source later heard they were taken to a forced labor camp in Siberia. 125

Churba Nura
A CIA source reported in 1956 the presence of two American citizens in the "Camp of the Sands" (Note: this is Peshchanlag, one of the Special Camp Systems) between November 1954 and September 1955. One of the Americans, who was reportedly named Derry, was sent to Hungary. 126

248 posted on 09/10/2004 1:01:05 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: GOP_1900AD

I saw your ping from the other thread asking about the memo:

Since then, I see you found this thread.

When I started this thread, I started getting links and docs emailed and freepmailed. The more I read, the more I searched and the more I've found. I've sourced everything the best I could.

So I'm not all that helpful with context of events. I'm learning most of this as I go. :( Sorry.

249 posted on 09/10/2004 1:29:27 PM PDT by Calpernia ("People never like what they don't understand")
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To: Calpernia

No apologies needed! You have assembled an *amazing* collection of facts here! I have pinged a few folks via email with the link. Bravo! Thanks!

250 posted on 09/10/2004 4:37:46 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Stomping on "PC," destroying the Left, and smoking out faux "conservatives" - Right makes right!)
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