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Democrats, Republicans, What Would Jesus Say About Same-Sex Marriage?
Nov. 15, 2004 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 11/15/2004 6:38:13 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

Democrats, after their embarrassing defeat at the hands of George W. Bush in the 2004 elections, apparently are trying to reframe what "moral values" are.

Voters, when given a choice of what was their primary reason for how they voted and whom they voted for picked moral values as the #1 reason. This can be found at http://www.pollingreport.com

The attempt by Democrats to reframe "moral values" is now being used to encompass such issues as poverty, while apparently excluding such issues as same-sex marriage.

Why would Christ be for same-sex marriage, when Christ was involved in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?.. but we'll get to that later.

While Christ, Himself, stated explicitely that we, as Christians, were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit the infirm (Matt. 25:31-46), the Bible also states that if one can work, and willingly chooses not to, that person should do without. (2 Thess. 3:11) "..if any would not work, neither should he eat."

This even includes mothers who wont work and yet want to live off of taxpayer-subsidized apartments, AFDC checks, and food-stamps.

Remember, Christ called Paul the Apostle; Paul even declared this. Christ appeared to Paul the Apostle on the road to Damascus. Paul stated that the things which he wrote in the New Testament were given to him by Christ. (Galatians chap. 3)

Those who are for hand-outs to those not willing or wanting to work, be they Democrats or Republicans, are going against scripture.

Now, suprisingly to some, Christ had alot to say concerning same-sex marriage. In Matthew 5:31, 19:4-6; Mk. 10:1; Luke 16:18) Christ stated such things as: " For this cause shall a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and the twain shall be one flesh." Never once did Christ state that a man was to leave his father and mother and cleave to another man, or a woman leave and cleave to another woman. As well, not one scripture from the beginning of the Bible, Genesis, to the end, Revelation, ever condones same-sex marriage yet alone same-sex relationships.

What does the Bible, though, say about same-sex relationships?

To answer this, one must first start back at the beginning of the Bible, the book of Genesis. In Genesis 13:13 it states that "the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly." The Bible even records that God appeared to Abraham to tell him that he intended to destroy Sodom (from whence the term Sodomy is derived) for its wickedness.

In Genesis chap 19:4-9 it states that the men of Sodom came outside of Lot's(Abraham's nephew) house and asked Lot if they could have sexual relations with the two male guests who appeared in the gates of Sodom at dusk and were lodging with Lot that night. The two guests were actually angels as the Bible declares. Lot emphatically declared to them no. Then, after being told no, they stated their intention to gang-rape Lot: Gen. 19:9. Lot offered his two virgin daughters to the sex-crazed sodomites, knowing that as homosexuals they wouldn't want them, anyway.

Just why did God destroy Sodom, though, as Genesis chapter 19 declares?

Some say it was for inhospitableness or attempting to gang-rape Lot or even desiring the angels. While these may be additional factors, the Bible says in Genesis 13:13, long before the two angels even set foot in Sodom, that "the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly." Even Ezekiel 16:46-50 states why God destroyed Sodom.

Ezekiel 16:46-50: "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strenghten the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed ABOMINATION before me. Therefore I took them away as I saw good."

What abomination could this be? Sodomy.

Leviticus 19:20 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination."

Now to the part about Jesus helping in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. 1.) Genesis 19:24: "Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. This was after Lot had made it safely to the caves, with his two daughters, as per the angel's instructions.

2.) Jesus said in John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

3.)Now, it was either the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ, or the Father and the Holy Ghost, or the Son and the Holy Ghost which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Even if the Father and Holy Ghost were the two who destroyed Sodom, Jesus was still involved since He and His Father are one, as He, Christ Jesus, in John 10:30 declared.

As well, numerous scriptures in the New Testamnet declare that homosexuality is an abomination in God's sight.

Romans 1:27 states that "men left the natural use of the woman and burned in their lust one with another, men working with men that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves the just recompense for their error.". The preceeding scriptures talk about women with women being a sin in God's sight, as well.

All of this clearly shows that Christ Jesus is against same-sex relationships as well as same-sex marriage. They are an abomination in God's sight.

2 Peter 2: 7-11 declares why the Bible in Genesis 13:13 calls the men of Sodom "wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly. It states "and [the Lord] delivered just Lot vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked."

vexed. Gr. Kataponeomai. Translation: To wear down. filthy. Gr. Aselgeia. Translation: Lustfulness Conversation Gr. Anastrophe. Translation: Conduct

Translation of 2 Peter 1:27: God rescued just Lot, who was wore down from the lustful conduct of the wicked sodomites, who, according to Ezekiel 16:46-50 were destroyed for the abomination of Sodomy as Levitius chap. 19, Romans 1:27, and Ezekiel 16: 50 declare.

Christ says in John 14:15 that "if you love me you will keep my commandments."

Christ commanded that men only marry women, not men marrying men or women marrying women. If you are for same-sex marriage the you are against his commandments, and cannot possibly love Him. Christ, as well, destroyed the Sodomites for their wicked, lustful lifestyle, as John 10:30 and Genesis 19:24 show. Why would he then, again, condone a same-sex relationship yet alone a same-sex marriage?

If Christ Jesus doesn't condone homosexuality, as Genesis 19:24 declares, why should we?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: samesexmarriage
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1 posted on 11/15/2004 6:38:14 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: All; little jeremiah; ItsOurTimeNow; EdReform

I believe that you will find this thread "article", written by me, worth reading.

Thank-you to those who take the time to read it.


2 posted on 11/15/2004 6:41:43 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The only correct way to deal with what Jesus might have said about any issue is to find where he actually did say something.

Otherwise, Christians fall into the same trap as Moslems where the entirity of their law (sharia) is based on suppositions about what the Prophet and his Disciples might have said, might have done, or could have thought about something.

About 1000 AD they locked their law in place. It has been unchaged ever since. That's why the knock brickwalls over on convicted homosexuals and abuse their women.

It's best of Christians speak where the Bible speaks, and remain silent where the Bible is silent.

3 posted on 11/15/2004 6:44:06 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

bump


4 posted on 11/15/2004 6:44:24 PM PST by Popman (Democrat Party Political Values are Condescension, Hypocrisy, Bigotry)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Sin is sin. Whether it is sodomy, murder, stealing, or cheating on your taxes; sin separates us from God. The only sin God cannot forgive is the unrepentant sin. No sin is to be proud of, not even homosexuality.


5 posted on 11/15/2004 6:44:39 PM PST by RantEng
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To: muawiyah
Otherwise, Christians fall into the same trap as Moslem's where the entirety of their law (sharia) is based on suppositions about what the Prophet and his Disciples might have said, might have done, or could have thought about something.

Obviously, you don't understand the Bible or how it is applied in a believers life.

Not being critical, but based on what you posted, is completely wrong.

6 posted on 11/15/2004 6:49:15 PM PST by Popman (Democrat Party Political Values are Condescension, Hypocrisy, Bigotry)
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To: muawiyah
The intent of this thread article is to show that Christ is against homosexuality/same-sex relationships.

As well, the second intent was to show Christians that they are to line up their vote and whom they vote for with the Bible.

The Bible commands that Christian's to obey Christ and His commandments. We are to live our life as He would live it.
We are to believe as He does.
7 posted on 11/15/2004 6:49:57 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

DEM: Practice safe Sin
REP: Practice NO Sin!


8 posted on 11/15/2004 6:54:02 PM PST by DBeers
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To: Popman
Apparantly you don't understand a thing about how Sharia law was developed.

For the first 300 years Moslems devised the Sharia by asking "What would Mohammad do"?

9 posted on 11/15/2004 6:55:13 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
If Christ Jesus doesn't condone homosexuality, as Genesis 19:24 declares, why should we?

We would be denying Him and those who do not know what Jesus said about denying Him would surely be blessed if you could go dig it out and remember that what He said applies to all that he ever said and taught.

It's all there in His Word and if it isn't in His Word don't sweat it for there is nothing hidden pertaining to salvation.

10 posted on 11/15/2004 6:58:34 PM PST by VOYAGER
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The article was quite interesting in that it was able to go to the Bible to find exactly what Jesus or the Disciples said about the issue.

On the other hand the title of the piece had that old "What would Jesus do" business in it.

Once you have Jesus in hand there's no reason to then imagine yourself in His place pondering the question.

11 posted on 11/15/2004 6:58:44 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

In addition to the quote above about man and woman becoming one flesh, Jesus 'spoke' volumes about his regard for marriage by performing his very first miracle at a wedding.


12 posted on 11/15/2004 6:58:50 PM PST by gogipper
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Jesus spoke about those things that people were confused about in scripture. The people in 1st century Jerusalem understood perfectly and agreed with the Biblical teaching on sexual immorality so he didn't HAVE to speak to them about it.


13 posted on 11/15/2004 6:59:26 PM PST by DManA
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To: RantEng

Leviticus 18:22 THOU SHALT NOT LIE WITH MANKIND AS WITH WOMANKIND: IT IS AN ABOMINATION


14 posted on 11/15/2004 6:59:38 PM PST by MaryJaneNC
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To: muawiyah

The last of Romans Chapter One is clear.


15 posted on 11/15/2004 7:03:21 PM PST by Kackikat
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To: muawiyah
For the first 300 years Moslems devised the Sharia by asking "What would Mohammad do"?

So you are implying that Christians would fall into the same trap, as in "WWJD" and fall into the same mindless totalitarian set of laws ?

If so, that is not even worthy of a response.

16 posted on 11/15/2004 7:03:22 PM PST by Popman (Democrat Party Political Values are Condescension, Hypocrisy, Bigotry)
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To: DManA

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men,leaving the natural use of woman, burned in their own lust one toward another, men with men working what is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.


17 posted on 11/15/2004 7:03:32 PM PST by MaryJaneNC
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To: muawiyah

Amen to your comments BUMP.

Let's just leave it at that.


18 posted on 11/15/2004 7:04:21 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: RantEng

HOMOSEXUALITY AND WITCHCRAFT are not little sins....
BOTH ARE ABOMINATIONS TO GOD


19 posted on 11/15/2004 7:04:24 PM PST by MaryJaneNC
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To: Popman
Sure it's worthy of a response. Repent.

When you ask WWJD you put yourself in place of God.

This is why you were given a scripture ~ to see what God Himself said about the matter. There's really no need to commit idolotry when all you have to do is read, or consult with someone who knows the scriptures.

20 posted on 11/15/2004 7:06:26 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Go and sin no more"


21 posted on 11/15/2004 7:06:40 PM PST by moonman
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To: muawiyah
The Bible, though, nowhere in the New Testament, declares that Christians are to execute homosexuals.

Muslem's way find such scriptures in the Koran as a basis to invoke Sharia on homosexuals, but Christians cannot find such things within the Bible.
Therefore A Christian asking "what would Jesus do?" is very much different than a Muslim asking "What would Mohammed do?"
The attempt to connect the Bible and the Koran in this way, is moot, and comparing apples to oranges.

A Christian voting based on Biblical principles is not going to fall into the "same trap" as Muslims have, as you say.

Whether or not you like it, a Christian should always vote in accordance with Biblical principles. How else could one love Christ, by keeping his commandments, if their vote(or voting for someone)was contrary to God's commandments about something(like homosexuality) as outlined clearly within the Bible?

It seems to me that you believe that Christians should not vote based on what the Bible says about certain things, like homosexuality. If so, you give bad advice to Christians that should not be heeded.
22 posted on 11/15/2004 7:09:01 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: RantEng

Homosexuality is a sin that leads one to have a reprobate mind...and God will give those OVER to a reprobate mind.
Not just any sin...
ROMANS 1


23 posted on 11/15/2004 7:10:34 PM PST by MaryJaneNC
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To: RantEng

I wonder, though. The Bible clearly states that homosexuals are one of the few sinners that are given over to a reprobate mind. It is an unusually wicked sin, worthy of an "urban renewal project": Sodom and Gomorrah.

As well, We see no alcoholics or adulterers ganging up and going on "adulterers pride" or "alcoholics pride" parades, glorying in their lifestyle choice, like we see with homosexuals and their "gay pride" parades.

For some reason homosexuals seem to want to thrust their lifestyle into the faces of others unlike any other group.


24 posted on 11/15/2004 7:16:35 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: muawiyah

Are you eliminating the Old Testament from the Bible, and St. Paul as well? You cannot select only certain parts of the Bible and expect to have any credibility. It's kind of like hustling stocks without revealing the full truth.


25 posted on 11/15/2004 7:17:35 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

BOOKMARKED
BTTT


26 posted on 11/15/2004 7:17:57 PM PST by ppaul
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To: muawiyah

After reading Biblical scriptures, and what Jesus said and did, there no doubt exactly how Christ Jesus feels about homosexual relationships.

Paul and Peter, as well, both line up with Jesus's viewpoint concerning homosexuality.


27 posted on 11/15/2004 7:22:13 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: DManA

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. (Jesus IS the Word)

ALL Scripture is Inspired / God Breathed. It is the Inspired Word of God. Jesus is God and all the Scripture, both new and old, are His Words and His commands.


28 posted on 11/15/2004 7:23:22 PM PST by Esther Ruth
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To: ppaul

I hope this thread is of use to you.


29 posted on 11/15/2004 7:23:24 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Your part of it is.


30 posted on 11/15/2004 7:26:53 PM PST by ppaul
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Beware of any man who would tell you how Jesus Christ would think.


31 posted on 11/15/2004 7:32:53 PM PST by IronJack (R)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

If David was quoting Jesus on the cross in Psalms 22, then Christ called the homosexual temple prostitutes surrounding him "dogs".

Not a happy situation when the Creator calls one a dog.


32 posted on 11/15/2004 7:41:13 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Might say something similar to what he said one other time: "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more."

Only problem is that homosexuals do not lump what they do with other sins collectively referred to in the New Testament as "sexual immorality". That is similar to Bill Clinton's claim that oral sex is not sex . . . uh . . . depending on what your definition of "is" is.

33 posted on 11/15/2004 7:46:29 PM PST by RatRipper
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To: muawiyah
The only correct way to deal with what Jesus might have said about any issue is to find where he actually did say something.

First, two things.

I disagree with your premise. The Bible states over 1,100 times that it is the Word of God - that is, God speaking to man. Combine this with the fact that Jesus is God along with John's gospel which states that Jesus was with God in the beginning. This means that anything God does or says in the Old Testament is also done and said by Jesus. Therefore, there is no supposition in attributing Old Testament or New Testament views on homosexuality to Jesus.

Further, the position that during his earthly ministry Jesus commented on every sin is erroneous and misses His main message and purpose. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not state the law. By fulfilling the law and then dying in our place, he has satisfied God's wrath for the sins of the redeemed. As a result, we are imputed with His righteousness and God's justice and mercy are both perfectly maintained.

Having said all that, contrary to what many claim, Jesus did have something to say about homosexuality during his earthly ministry.

In Matthew 11:23-24, Jesus is commenting on the unbelief in Capernaum. The context of these verses is Jesus comparing two cities: Capernaum and Sodom. He is communicating to Capernaum the utter wickedness of their unbelief and he does this by comparing them to an extreme example - Sodom.

When viewed in the proper context, it is clear in these passages that not only does Jesus not approve of the sins of Sodom (homosexuality), he sees them as sufficiently vile so as to be used for his purposes in condemning Capernaum.

Here are the versus.

Matthew 11
23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

34 posted on 11/15/2004 7:50:08 PM PST by Pete
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To: DBeers

I wouldn't go that far. We are all sinners, most of us ask forgiveness of those sins and do not repeat them, and there in lies the difference


35 posted on 11/15/2004 7:56:37 PM PST by gidget7 (God Bless America, and our President George W. Bush)
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To: muawiyah

True. Also the article left our the passage where the Bible stated "man shall not lay with man, nor woman with women......etc


36 posted on 11/15/2004 7:58:36 PM PST by gidget7 (God Bless America, and our President George W. Bush)
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To: IronJack

I think the writer isn't trying to tell us how Jesus thinks. He is using scripture which tells us exactly what Jesus thinks.


37 posted on 11/15/2004 8:14:24 PM PST by beckysueb (We sent the Liberal back to Massachusetts!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Genesis 13:13
  Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.
 

Genesis 18:20-21
 20.  Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
 21.  that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
 4.  Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. 
 5.  They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
 6.  Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
 7.  and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

Isaiah 3:9
 9.  The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

 More?

Ezekiel 16:49-50
 49.  "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
 50.  They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

 



But there IS hope!!!


 
 
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
 9.  Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
 10.  nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 11.  And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
 

If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape.....

 

38 posted on 11/15/2004 8:19:35 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Good doctrine; good Biblical reasoning.

Thank you!


39 posted on 11/15/2004 8:30:29 PM PST by TFMcGuire (Either you are an American or you are a Liberal.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

ENOUGH WITH "GAY" ISSUES...AMERICANS ARE SICK OF IT!

40 posted on 11/15/2004 8:30:53 PM PST by montag813
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To: muawiyah

Christ spoke and we have the Scriptures.

If one will not have Him as Savior, he will have Him as Judge.

"Whosoever shall fall upon that rock shall be broken but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." (Lk. 20:18).

Don't take Christ's longsuffering for weakness. and don't think He chuckles at sodomy or any other sin.


41 posted on 11/15/2004 8:39:12 PM PST by TFMcGuire (Either you are an American or you are a Liberal.)
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To: montag813

God cares.


42 posted on 11/15/2004 8:47:56 PM PST by TFMcGuire (Either you are an American or you are a Liberal.)
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To: muawiyah
For the first 300 years Moslems devised the Sharia by asking "What would Mohammad do"?

FACT: Mohammad is a false prophet and allah is a false god.

PROOF: The wordwide hate and destruction at the direction of "allah". This is nothing but an idol worshipping cult whose sole aim is the death of anyone who does not convert and worldwide domination.

It can not be compared even rhetorically to Christianity.

43 posted on 11/15/2004 9:51:55 PM PST by Indie (Ignorance of the truth is no excuse for stupidity.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Here's one more from Jude:

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.

44 posted on 11/15/2004 10:01:06 PM PST by Waryone
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I think Jesus would say something like this:

Mt 19:4
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

But of course the fact that He said it won't make people believe it.


45 posted on 11/15/2004 10:11:02 PM PST by samiam5
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To: muawiyah
The only correct way to deal with what Jesus might have said about any issue is to find where he actually did say something.

There is no "might have said" where Jesus is concerned. If you read the entire Bible, you will see that Jesus was present in the Old Testament and those words were His. Yes, His words that are highlighted in red are all about love, but so were His words from the beginning. It's all about the love for God.

God doesn't need us...we need Him.

46 posted on 11/15/2004 11:00:06 PM PST by Krodg
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
I have no idea how you arrived at the idea that I believe Christians should ignore what the Bible says.

In fact, I explicitly said that Christians are better off speaking where the Bible speaks and remaining silent where the Bible is silent.

47 posted on 11/16/2004 3:59:32 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: AmericanVictory

Speaking where the Bible speaks certainly includes St. Paul. Why would I exclude him?


48 posted on 11/16/2004 4:00:49 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Elsie

2 Corinthians 5:17-20

17. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19. that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.

We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God


49 posted on 11/16/2004 4:00:52 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Pete
And so?!

You've gone to the scriptures and discovered Jesus had already said something on the subject, albeit inferrentially, but clearly targeted.

That is not the same as sitting down and saying to yourself "Now, let me pretend to be Jesus (God) and come up with something Jesus might say or do concerning the issue."

50 posted on 11/16/2004 4:04:24 AM PST by muawiyah
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