Letter left on Theo Van Gogh's body - A call to destroy America and all "unbelievers"

Militant Muslim Monitor.org ^ | November 6, 2004 | Beila Rabinowitz

[Gritty]

Translations of ' martyrdom letter ' carried by killer - Death threat letter to cabinet minister Geert Wilders
November 5, 2004

MIM: Below is the english translation of the letter which was stuck into the body of Theo Van Gogh with knife . Beneath that letter is the one which was found on the terrorist who killed him and hoped to be shot and martyred. Today the NRC Handelsblad published an 'open letter' which the killer had written to Geert Wilders a member of the Dutch cabinet. The original text and translation are also to be found below:

The letter can be seen as a "Jihad Manifesto" since the killer refers to himself as the "Emir van de Muhajideen"

These writings show conclusively that the Islamists are living in a parallel universe . This letter should be a wake up call for all of us to see that militant Islamist killers are dwelling among us. In the following days MIM will publish translations of articles which will explain the phenomenon of how such an Islamist who went to Dutch schools was able to fester and infect Dutch society with his deadly poison. After the killing 8 other Muslims living in Holland were arrested. A statistical study of percentage of potentially lethal Muslims in Holland shows that there are 50,000 militant Islamists presently at large.

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MIM: In an unprecedented move these letters were published by the NRC Handelsblad - the Dutch version of the Wall Street Journal.

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(snip)

Open letter to Hirshi Ali

In the name of Allah - the BeNeficent - the Merciful

Peace and Blessings from the head of the Holy Warriors - the laughing killer Mohammed Rasoeloe Allah -(Sala Allaho alahie wa Sallam) his family and his companions who will steadfastly accompany him till on the Day of Judgement .

There is no agression except for agression against agressors.

The following:

Peace and blessings on those who follow the Leader .

This is an open letter on a fundamentalist unbeliever,Ayaan Hirsi Ali. from the Thaghoet Party VVD.

Dear Mrs Hirshi Ali,

Since your appearence in the Dutch political arena you have been constantly busy criticising Muslims and terrorising Islam with your statements. You are hereby not the first and not the last and also won't be the last to have joined the crusade against Islam.

With your attacks you have not only turned your back on the Truth, but you are also marching along the ranks of the soldiers of evil. U are not putting your hostility towards Islam under chairs and benches and therefore your masters have rewarded you with a seat in parliament. They have found in you an ally who gives them all the "powder" so that they dont have to dirty their own hands. It appears that you are blinded by your burning unbelief and in your rage you are not able to see that your are just an instrument of the real enemies of Islam.

You are being used by all the enemies of Islam to siphon all kinds of hostilities towards the most noble person (Mohammed Rasoeloe Alla).

Mrs. Hirshi Ali, I don't blame you for all of this, as a soldier of evil you are just doing your work.

The fact that you so openly spill out your evil is not because of you yourself, but the Islamic Ummah. She has as her task to resist injustice and has let evil go on and has been blissfully asleep. All of your hostility towards Islam is therefore the fault of the Islamic Ummah.

This letter is Insha Allah (God willing) an attempt to stop your evil and silence you forever.These writings will Inshallah cause your mask to fall off.

I would first like to begin by your recently launched proposal to screen Muslims regarding their ideology on job applications.

Your proposal is very interesting, even more because the implementation of has brought out the rotten face of your political masters (when of course it was honestly tested on them and they openly make their ideology known).

It is a fact that Dutch politics is dominated by many Jews and is a product of the Talmudic Schools, as is also the case with your colleagues in your political party.

Seeing as that you always propagate "the hand on one's own chest" we would first like to test this proposal on you yourself. The same politics which through it's policies has joined in the terrorism against Islam and Muslims.

I would very much like to put to you the following question:

What do you think about the fact that van Aartsen and their ideological counterparts see non Jews as not being human?

Baba Mezie 114a -114b :Only Jews are people ("Only you are called (the) people") Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub heading ("Oil of annointing") and Berkath 56a in which Gentile (non Jews) are called women animals ( "female donkeys")

Ybamoth 92a : All Gentile children are animals

What do you think of the fact that the Mayor of Amsterdam is at the helm of and ideologie whereby Jews have to lie to non Jews? Baba Kamma 113a : Jews may use lies ("listen") to mislead gentiles .

What do you think of the fact that you are part of a government that supports a State which pleads for genocide ?

Sofarim 15, line 10 (Minor Tarcctates): This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tod shebe goyim herog) ("Even the best gentiles must be killed")

Seeing as that you are a champion of equal rights, you should, (after this knowledge has come to you) plead with your Jewish masters to reject the teachings of the Talmud. You will most likely make it a point to deliver the same plea to the Jewish community in the Netherlands.

Your appearances reveal your lack of courage now and then when you are asking for attention for your struggle. You even had the cowardice to ask Islamic children in school to choose between their creator and the constitution.

You immediately used the answer of these pure young souls to justify the arguments behind your crusade. With these hostilities you have unleashed a boomerang effect and you know that it is only a question of time until this boomerang will seal your fate.

You have the chances now, misses Hirshi Ali, once and for all to carve your own notch in the pages.

There is but one certainty in our entire existence, and that is that everything comes to an end.

A child who comes into this world and fills the universe with his first cries of life, will finally leave this world with a death rattle .

A blade of grass which can stick out of the dark earth and is touched by the sunlight and fed by falling rain , will finally rot into dust and disappear.

Death, Mrs. Hirshi Ali , is a shared theme of everything that exists. You, I and the rest of creation cannot get loose from this truth.

There will come a Day when one soul will not be able to help another soul. A Day of horrible tortures and painful tribulations which will go together with with the terrible cries being pressed out of the lungs of the unjust .Cries. Mrs. Hirshi Ali, which will cause chills to run up someones spine, and cause the hair on their head to stand straight up. People will appear to be drunk with (with fear) even though they arent drunk. On that Great Day the atmosphere will be filled with FEAR.

When the sun will be rolled up.

When the stars fall.

And when the mountains will be moved.

And when the beasts of burden will be left behind.

And when the sea will be brought to a boil.

And when all souls will be united.

And when the girl who was buried alive will be questioned.

About every sin for which she was killed.

When the pages will be flung open.

And the sky will be dripping .

And the heavens will be dripping.

An when the Djahim (Hell) will be set aflame.

And when Paradise will be brought closer by.

Then the soul will know what it has performed. (81:1-14)

On that day man will flee from his brother .

And the mother from the father.

And the woman from her children.

And everyone of them on that Day shall have an occupation which is enough for them.

Faces (of the unbelievers) will be covered with dust on that Day.

And they will be ringed in darkness.

These are the sinful unbelievers .(80:34-42)

Of course you as an unbelieving extremist dont believe in the scene which is described above. For you this is just a fictitious dramatic piece out of a Book like many. And yet, Mrs.Hirsi Ali, I would bet on my life that you will break into a SWEAT OF FEAR when you read this.

You, as unbelieving fundamentalist, of course dont believe in a Higher Power who runs the universe.

You dont believe in your heart, with with you repudiate the truth, that you must knock and ask this Higher Power for permission .

You dont believe that your tongue with with you reject this Higher Power is subservient to his laws.

U dont believe that this Higher Power grants life and Death.

If you really believed in all of this , then you would not find the following challenge a problem.

I challenge you with this letter to proof that you are right : You dont have to do much for that :

Mrs. Hirshi Ali :Wishes Death if you are really convinced that you are right.

If you accept this challenge, you will know that my Master, the Most high, has exposed you as a bearer of lies.

"If you wish death, then you are being truthful". But those who never wish to die, because of what their hands (and sins) have brought forth".

And Allah is the all knowing over the purveyors of lies .(2:94-95).

To prevent myself of having to the same wish coming to me as I wish for you, I shall wish this wish for you:

Mijn Rabb (master) give us death to give us happiness with martyrdom.Allahoemma Amien.

Mrs.Hirshi Ali and the rest of you extremist unbelievers.Islam has withstood many enemies and persecutions throughout History. Whenever pressure was put on Islam is it only a fire which fans the flames of belief. Islam like an extinct plant,which has been formed into a diamond through years of high temperatures and pressure.An extinct plant which was formed over the trials of time into the strongest precious stone on earth. A hard stone upon which will defeat any attempts to break it to pieces.

AYAAN HIRSI ALI YOU WILL BREAK YOURSELF TO PIECES ON ISLAM!

You and your friend know full well that the present day Islamic youth are raw diamonds that need to be polished, so that they can diffuse the light of Truth. Your intellectual terrorism will not prevent this, on the contrary, it will hasten this.

Islam will be victorious through the blood of the martyrs .They will spread it's light in every dark corner of this earth and it will drive evil with the sword if necessary back into it's dark hole.

This struggle which has burst forth is different then those of the past. The unbeliving fundamentalist have started it and Inshallah the true believers will end it.

There will be no mercy shown to the purveyors of injustice, only the sword will be lifted against hem.No discussions, no demonstrations, no petitions: on DEATH will separate the Truth from the Lies.

Verse: Be warned that the death that you are trying to prevent will surely find you, afterwards you will be taken back to the All Knowing and He will tell you what you attempted to do". (62:8).

And as a great Prophet once said :

"And I surely know that you, O Pharoah, will be destoyed". (17:102).

So will we use the same names and send this out ahead of us, so that the heavens and the stars will receive this news and this will be spread as a tidal wave throughout all the corners of the universe.

"I surely know that you, O America, will be destroyed ".

"I surely know that you O Europe, will be destroyed"

"I surely know that you O Holland will be destroyed"

"I surely know that you, O Hirshi Ali will be destroyed"

"I surely know that you, O unbelieving fundamentalists, will be destroyed "

Hasboena Allah wa ni3ma alwakeel.

Ni3ma al alMawla wa Ni3ma anNaseer.

Saifu Deen alMuwahhied

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MIM translation :

"The suspects farewell letter : This is the actual letter that the killer who is suspected of the murder of Theo Van Gogh had with him ...

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Drenched in blood these are my final words...

Pierced by bullets...

As I had hoped...

I am leaving a message behind...

For you ...the fighter ....

The tree of Tawheed is waiting...

And longing for your blood....

Take up the challenge....

And Allah will help you overcome....

He gives you the garden...

In place of this earthly rubble....

To the enemy I also have something to say...

You will certainly try to resist ...

But even if you go on a Tour of the world...

Death is Lurking right behind you ...

The Horsemen of DEATH are at your heels...

And the streets will be covered red with Blood ...

To the hypocrites I say will end with this :

Wish for DEATH or else keep quiet ...and sit...

Dear brothers and sisters I am nearing the end...

But with this my story is not ended....

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(snip)

[GeekDejure]

Right, so you are saying we should kill all muslims. I guess we start by just nuking all the civilian populations in the Mideast? Follow that up with some concentration/conversion/death camps here at home? You are sick. I KNOW some muslims, and trust me, they are not all the weird psycho animals you make them out to be. Most of the muslims in this country live in the suburbs, drive their kids to soccer practice in SUVs, and would agree with most of us on most social issues (abortion, for example).

---

The Koran REQUIRES all Muzzle-ems to KILL all non-Muzzle-ems, and in fact, terrorists themselves say they are "acting on the basis of the holy scripture of Islam." Accused 9/11 ringleader Mohammed Atta had a Koran in the suitcase he had checked for his flight. His five-page document of advice for fellow hijackers instructed them to pray, ask Allah for guidance, and "continue to recite the Koran." Osama bin Laden often quotes the Koran to motivate and convince his Islamofascist followers !!!

Why has no lawyer argued before the Supreme Court that Islam is NOT a true "religion" in America that needs to be protected any more than the "religions" of David Koresh or Jim Jones? Koresh and Jones were running CULTS. Islam is nothing more than a DEATH CULT, but because it has lasted for 1400 years people give it an air of validity !!!

Islam is NOT a religion defined the way all non-Muzzle-em humans living on this planet define religion... EXCEPT for followers of the DEATH CULT known as Islam !!!

NO other religious order on Earth REQUIRES its adherents to RAPE, TORTURE, MURDER and BEHEAD people that will not convert to it. NO other religious order on earth is killing non-members and ex-members. ONLY ISLAM !!!

The Muzzle-em GUIDE, the Koran, is antithesis to the U.S. Constitution, and therefore it should be argued before the Court that Islam can be and SHOULD be OUTLAWED in the United States. All of the things the United States holds dear that are guaranteed to its citizens through the Constitution would be TOTALLY ELIMINATED if Muzzle-ems manage to become the ruling party in the United States !!!

An organization that calls itself the largest Muzzle-em organization in America is called the Council on American Islamic Relations (or CAIR). This organization claims that it speaks for ALL Muzzle-ems living in America, and here is what the founders of CAIR have publicly stated:

"Islam is NOT in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become DOMINANT! The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the ONLY accepted religion on Earth." [CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad].

So, smcmike... how much more succinct could he have been? "... I'd like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future."[Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman]. Another of their spokesman, Ghazi Khankan, said at a rally held in Washington DC: "I bring to you salaams and greetings from the Mujahadeen at CAIR." !!!

At what point will the Supreme Court declare these people, these statements, and the book that Muzzle-em monsters behind these statements look upon as THEIR Constitution as seditious, anti-American and a THREAT to the United States???

It should not take a savvy attorney, arguing to the highest courts in America, very long to present the case that Islam should and MUST BE BANNED in America. There are very many verses in the Koran that REQUIRE followers of Islam to overthrow ALL governments that are not Islamic; it should only take ONE of these verses for the Supreme Court justices to make their decision, (not to mention the verses that REQUIRE Muzzle-ems to make WAR against ALL people until the entire Earth is Muzzle-em, and to KILL ALL who will NOT submit to the DEATH CULT known as Islam) !!!

Upon the enactment of the decree declaring that Islam is NOT a religion, followers of Islam could then be educated about the true aims of Islam (MOST Muzzle-ems are NOT aware of the ultimate goal of their cult), but given the opportunity to finally "see the light" they could quit the Islamic cult, or leave the country !!!

The cry "freedom of religion" would not stand in this case if the TRUTH were argued in the courts that Islam is NOT a religion. Once it is made public, passed into law and recognized that Islam is truly NOT a "religion" that should be afforded protection under American laws, it will be that much easier to protect Americans from the final goals of worldwide Jihad and Islamofascism !!!

At that time, organizations like CAIR would no longer exist (at least not legally) and the pressures that are placed on the media to whitewash the truth about Islam would disappear... (especially those who TODAY are afraid to print the TRUTH about Islam for fear of their lives. CNN and Reuters are on record recently claiming that they DO NOT tell the truth and HAVE NOT told the truth and WILL NOT tell the truth about Islam because they KNOW that they, and their reporters, would be MURDERED by the followers of the moon god death cult called Islam.) !!!

[smcmike]

You are a sick f*ck.

That succinct enough for you?

Go talk to some Muslims. Seriously. Just go do it. (but calm down first, maybe lay off the coffee?). They are not all evil. In fact, I think you know that: "MOST Muzzle-ems are NOT aware of the ultimate goal of their cult." Hmmm. Perhaps that is because "the ultimate goal of their cult" is only something that the extremists want? It seems to me your course of action is a self-fullfilling prophecy: If we ban Islam then yes, the majority of Muslims within the united states will become our enemies. That seems pretty similar to the idea that if we ban guns, only criminals will have them...

And before you go quoting the Qu'ran again, try reading the whole thing through, with a (relatively) open mind. Sure, it talks about violence... but so does the OT.

[GeekDejure]

Either you did not read these statements of the official Islamic spokesmen, or you, yourself, are actually a Muzzle-em. Nevertheless... I hereby repeat said statements to blow apart your ridiculous argument:

"Islam is NOT in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become DOMINANT! The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the ONLY accepted religion on Earth." [CAIR co-founder Omar Ahmad].

So, smcmike... how much more succinct could he have been? "...I'd like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future." [Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman]. Another of their spokesman, Ghazi Khankan, said at a rally held in Washington DC: "I bring to you salaams and greetings from the Mujahadeen at CAIR." !!!

Now... get down on your hands and knees, grovel on your Muzzle-em prayer rug, and ask for forgiveness from me and your death cult moon god Allah, for calling me "a sick f*ck" !!!

[smcmike]

You are right, I should not have made it personal.

Your ideas are the ideas of a sick f*ck. Have you ever met a Muslim? Seriously.

[eleni121]

I talk to Muslim students almost every day. Not one ---not even one, do I trust. Part of their conditioning is tricking the "unbelievers" -Christians like myself - into thinking they are peaceful and straight. NO such thing...After years of being exposed to them, I have come to the realization that either conversion or death will solve the problem.

You seriously need to wake up.

[smcmike]

Sick sick sick!

SICK!!

If I spent much time talking to "christians" like you, I might come to the same conclusion (about you)!

Just think about what you are saying. Conversion or death! This whole argument seems strangely reminiscent of one that might have gone on in 1930s Germany, or perhaps 3rd century Rome.

[eleni121]

Before responding on this topic, you should get some experience with Muslims and you need to read up on your history..,your dates and facts are off by a mile.

And your strange little habit of personally attacking those who you disagree with smacks of naivete and churlish temper.

[smcmike]

I know a few Muslims, the ones I know are nice people. I'm not vouching for them all, but I am saying you can't condemn a third of the earth's population based on the acts of a few. You are right that I should probably not attack people personally, and I apologize... sort of. What you are proposing is still SICK SICK SICK!!!

And how are my facts or dates off? Explain, please!

[GeekDejure]

Your ideas are the ideas of a sick f*ck. Have you ever met a Muslim? Seriously.
======

Yes, indeed, I have met a Muzzle-em. Its screen name on FreeRepublic is smcmike !!!

And it continues to refuse to acknowledge the statements made by its death cult spokesmen, to wit:

"...I'd like the government of the United States to be Islamic sometime in the future." -- Ibrahim Hooper, CAIR spokesman

"I bring to you salaams and greetings from the Mujahadeen at CAIR." -- Ghazi Khankan, CAIR spokesman

"Islam is NOT in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become DOMINANT! The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the ONLY accepted religion on Earth." -- Omar Ahmed, CAIR co-founder

Islam, as it is taught in the Quran (Koran) and as it was lived by Muhammad, is reported in the Hadith (Biography and sayings of the so called Prophet) is a religion of intolerance, inequality, violence, discrimination, superstition, fanaticism, and blind, unquestioning faith.

Islam advocates murdering all non-Muslims and it abuses the basic human rights of women and minorities. Islam was expanded by Jihad (holy war) and forced its way by brutally murdering the non-believers and the Muslim dissidents.

And Apostasy in Islam is the biggest crime, punishable by death !!! Why ???

The so called prophet Muhammad was a fundamentalist himself, therefore fundamentalism cannot be separated from TRUE Islam. Islam, which means submission, demands that its followers submit their wills and thoughts to Muhammad and his moon god Allah, a created deity that despises reason, democracy, freedom of thought and freedom of expression.

The self proclaimed prophet Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship with Aisha (a 6-year-old child), his killing sprees, his massacre and genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans, his burning of the palm plantations, his destruction of water wells, his cursing and invoking evil upon his enemies, and his revenge upon his captured prisoners of war, totally and completely disqualify him as being a decent human being, let alone his claim that he is the messenger of God. Sheeesh... a "religion" comprised of lies and absurdities !!!

I thoroughly REJECT Islam, because of Muhammad’s complete lack of moral and ethical fortitude, the insistance of murdering all Cristians, Jews and other Infidels, and because of the total and complete absurdities that reside within the Quran !!!

So... Muzzle-em smcmike... how many Infidels have you decapitated today in your pursuit and defense of the religion of p-i-e-c-e-s ???

[smcmike]

Yeah, yeah.

Calling me a Muslim doesn't make me one. If you are interested, I disagree entirely with Muslim theology, and agree that it facilitates the oppression of women, and that it is sometimes use for much darker things. I also am not disputing what your CAIR spokesmen said. HOWEVER, I don't think your approach is very productive, and know that it is immoral. The proper approach to Islam, in my view, is to co-opt it, to bring it into the mainstream, and to eliminate fundementalism through all the nice benefits of modern life. Basically, I expect Islam to become "corrupted" through western capitalism and democracy.

And, for what it is worth, in the early conquests of Islam they didn't kill all unbelievers, they mostly just taxed them (particularly the people of the book). Which was considerably better than life as a heretic under many Xtian empires.

[GeekDejure]

You are now implying that you are NOT a Muzzle-em (Muslim). Therefore, according to the Koran, you are an "unbeliever" ("infidel"). Are you aware that the Koran STRICTLY FORBIDS believers from being FRIENDS with unbelievers??? (I'll cite Koran chapter and verse if you insist).

How then can claim to have Muzzle-em friends???

P.S. Are you paying them their Koran imposed tax???

[smcmike]

Have you read the Qu'ran all the way through, or do you rely upon some website to find these verses for you? I haven't read it, but I have been told by friends of mine (non-muslim friends) who have that the overall message is not all that violent, certainly no more so than the OT. I intend on reading it through at some point, but don't exactly have the time right now.

And I didn't so much imply that I am not a muslim as SAY that I am not a muslim. I'm not particularly religious at all, if you must know.

Are you aware that the OT strictly forbids Jews from eating shellfish? And yet I know several who enjoy oysters as much as I do!

[papertyger]

Just an academic question...if geek was essentially correct (though no doubt histrionic), how could he/she prove it to you?

[smcmike]

I just don't see that happening. You would have to prove to me that every single Muslim in the world is deserving of death if they refuse to give up their faith... Which, as far as I can tell, no one could convince me of. I don't think there is any belief system in the world that would fit into that category for me. I guess that's what comes from believing in the fundemental rights of man.

[papertyger]

So what you are in effect saying, minus your hyperbole, is even if geek were essentially correct...you wouldn't be able to recognize it as fact.

[smcmike]

No, that is not what I am saying at all. That is a horrendous leap of logic.

What exactly am I supposed to be accepting as fact again? That all Muslims are deserving of death? I think that's it. So let's look at this...

First off, I don't know that this is a provable statement. Whether someone "deserves" to die is not always subjective (I would argue that there are those who do deserve death by any decent standard), but it IS very tricky to combine logic and morality.

But, assuming that we can safely say that it is a fact someone deserves to die (and surely there are plenty of terrorists who deserve worse than that), what you are suggesting here is still beyond logic. If every Muslim I had ever met deserved death, it might be a safe assumption that the next one I met would as well, but it would not be a proven fact.

Finally, WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING IS F*CKING SICK!!!! Really, I don't see why anything you could say should be expected to change my mind. I can't think of anything you could say that would convince me the Holocaust was OK either.

[papertyger]

Despite your attempts to blur distinctions with hyperbole, the simple fact is you are refusing to entertain a distinct possibility. That is, that islam is inherently antagonistic (murderously so) to anything that is not islam.

As to my logic...your disapproval of it does not invalidate it. You have already answered the one question that catagorically proves you are incapable of taking an objective view. I learned long ago not to waste time arguing with people whose ideas and philosophies are so fuzzy and nebulous that they're unable to recognize if and when they are wrong.

That's not to say that you are wrong; just that you would be unable to recognize it if you were.

Your anecdotes about "good" moslems in no way invalidates the proposition that those "good" moslems are engaged in some very real cognitive dissonance where their religion is concerned. As one Rachel Lipkin recently said on arab television " There is no such thing as a good moslem. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they aren't good people; just that there is no such thing as a good moslem."

While the proposition of wiping out huge swaths of humanity is absurd, there is a distinct possibility that Ann Coulter's suggestion isn't.

[smcmike]

Ah, I see your argument now.

The fact that you accuse ME of hyperbole when I was arguing against a fellow who refered to Muslims as Muzzle-ems is a little bit ironic though.

And I agree completely that I am incapable of taking an objective view on this, that is kind of what my last post was all about. Of course, I also believe you are incapable of taking an objective view on it. We are only human. Subjective views are often valid however, so I won't hold that against you.

If the statement I am dealing with is "Islam is inherently antagonistic (muderously so) to anything that is not Islam," then you are right, I was engaged in a bit of hyperbole. That is certainly something that can be argued, though I still disagree with it (though not as violently).

The problem is that this argument still judges the vast majority of the religion by the acts of a few. Also, if the average Arab on the street has a problem with the US, that does not necessarily prove that Islam is to blame: they are mostly upset about Isreal (not that I am proposing we give in there), and now Iraq. The key, as I said before, is NOT to try and "convert" them away from Islam. It is to "corrupt" Islam with some nice western values, like democracy, human rights and capitalism.

[papertyger]

The problem is that this argument still judges the vast majority of the religion by the acts of a few.

If we are going to carry on a proper arguement, you are going to have to quit wasting my time with cliches included to mask the fact you have very little background in the subject matter. You are speaking from a point of reference that assumes western liberal concepts, and in case you hadn't noticed...unqualified western liberal concepts are exceedingly tricky to apply to eastern peoples. Failing any meeting of cultural touchstones one is left with only one medium for substantive communication, and that medium is logic.

Also, if the average Arab on the street has a problem with the US, that does not necessarily prove that Islam is to blame: they are mostly upset about Isreal (not that I am proposing we give in there), and now Iraq.

Please tell me the extent of your reading on this subject. From my research, you have the problem exactly backward. Israel is the "little satan" while we are the "great satan." Israel is a western democracy, the fact that it is primarly populated by jews is just icing on the cake.

The key, as I said before, is NOT to try and "convert" them away from Islam. It is to "corrupt" Islam with some nice western values, like democracy, human rights and capitalism.

It is precisely that "corruption" that they are fighting against, and have been for about three hundred years. Unfortunately, you are living off the bones of what "conversion" has wrought without ever knowing the whats and whys of the living entity. You enjoy the abundant fruit without real knowlege of what it took to grow that fruit. Where do you think workable democracy, human rights, and capitalism came from?

[smcmike]

Haha, OK, I will quit wasting your time with cliches, I want to carry on a proper "arguement." Yeah, that was a silly cheap shot, I know, but you are annoying me a little here.

Please tell me the extent of YOUR reading on the subject. I am coming to this problem from the standpoint of a moderately well informed citizen, I can't claim to be an expert on the subject at all. I don't think that I have the problem backwards, however. It seems to me that western imperialism in the region is the primary factor that has created the extreme antipathy towards us in the region, rather than our "freedoms" here in the US. Not saying that they like our system of government (though aparently many do, since they keep coming here!), but clearly it is western interference in the region that has brought us to the present day conflict. As far as US being the Great Satan, and Isreal being the Little Satan, I would be that is because the average Palestinian/Arab sees Isreal as a puppet state of the US. It still comes down to they hate us because we helped to create a Jewish homeland (and for the various other acts in the region, there are lots).

So where does that leave us? We can't stop supporting Isreal, obviously. What we need to fight the war on terror is to eliminate the extremists, but almost more importantly, to support the moderates. And yes, there are moderate Muslims. To do this, we do need to help establish a relatively sound peace in Palestine, one that moderate muslims can at least accept, if not agree with. We also need to continue to pursue Pres. Bush's path in Iraq, and hope and pray that through a lot of hard work we can build a stable islamic Democracy, which can show the way for the rest of the region.

And if I'm going to carry on a proper argument with you, it would be nice if you would present a position of your own, instead of just attacking mine.