Posted on 11/29/2004 10:32:50 PM PST by kattracks
The death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat raises an interesting and significant question: Is it morally and theologically acceptable to hope anyone goes to hell?That was my first reaction to the death of the godfather of modern terrorism. But I recognize that many people, including many who share my moral assessment of Arafat, might reject such a reaction, let alone publicly express it. But there is a good case to be made for hoping that Yasser Arafat now finds himself in hell.
In order to do so, three issues need to be addressed:
First, is there a hell? Can rational people believe in such a thing?
Second, if there is a hell, does Arafat merit going there? And can any of us mortals judge a person worthy of hell?
Third, if there is a hell, is it acceptable to hope someone who we believe merits it goes there?
First, is there a hell?
Among those who pride themselves in being what is deemed sophisticated in our time, the notion of hell is either absurd, immoral or both. It is also identified with Christians, especially conservative Christians, and, therefore, the sophisticated feel particularly compelled to reject the concept.
Yet the belief that those who commit evil are punished after death is hardly restricted to Christianity. One of the Thirteen Principles of the Jewish Faith as laid down by the codifier of Jewish law, Maimonides (1135-1204), is that God rewards the good and punishes the bad.
One, therefore, need not be a conservative Christian to believe in some form of hell for the evil. All one need be is a rational believer in a just God. For if there is a just God, it is inconceivable that those who do evil and those who do good have identical fates. A just God must care about justice, and since there is little justice in this world, there has to be in the next. And belief in the next world is also not confined to Christianity. As the Encyclopedia Judaica, the greatest contemporary compilation of Jewish scholarship (edited largely by non-religious Jews) notes in the first sentence under the heading "Afterlife," "Judaism has always believed in an afterlife."
The second question is easily answered. Much of humanity has been adversely affected by modern-day terror. The lives of millions -- virtually all Palestinians and Israelis, for example -- have been terribly affected by Arafat. And there are hundreds of thousands of people whose lives have been destroyed or shattered by him. At the same time, other than a few sycophants enriched by some of the billions of dollars he embezzled from the Palestinians, no one has had a better life because Yasser Arafat lived.
Throughout modern history, even terrorists had moral boundaries. Terrorists historically attempted to avoid murdering innocent men, women and children. Arafat, however, made the murder and maiming of completely innocent men, women and children the very purpose of terror and one of his life's major legacies.
Yasser Arafat single-handedly made nihilistic acts of cruelty routine, even respectable. Many people were horrified at the Palestinian slaughter of the Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. But humanity gradually became inured to Arafat-style slaughter. Palestinian and Muslim disciples targeted schoolchildren for death in the Israeli city of Ma'alot and later in the Russian city of Beslan; tortured and murdered American diplomats in Sudan; and Arafat created a society whose only exports were new forms of religious hatred and new expressions of barbarity. Thanks to him, the Palestinian name is identified among people of goodwill with barbarity just as the German name came to be associated with barbarity as a result of Hitler.
If, then, there is a just God, and Arafat was the particularly venal human being described here, the answer to the third question is obvious.
Just as any decent human being would want good people to be rewarded in whatever existence there is after this life, they would want the cruelest of people to be punished.
So, of course, I hope Yasser Arafat is in hell. It means that a just God rules the universe. If you think that is hard-hearted, consider the alternative, that one of the most corrupt and cruel human beings of the past half-century is resting in peace. Whoever isn't bothered by that is the one with the hard heart.
Thanks, I didn't know that but I didn't figure it was original. I do think that it's hard for the human mind to understand how miserable that (living outside of God's love) would be so we envision physical pain. While it's hard to understand what it would really be like I have come to believe the lack of Grace would be worse.
I'm no theologian, either, but I have a few thoughts on the subject that might lend some value to the discussion. One of my deeply held beliefs seems applicable here, and since there are specific quotes on the subject, I won't have to paraphrase it. I'll leave the quotes for you to peruse.
Jesus spoke a lot about hell, in fact He spoke more about hell then He did heaven. For starters, Jesus paralleled the two in Matthew 10:28 Jesus says: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell." The Greek word "apollumi," which comes from the Greek word "apo" and "olethros" means, to "destroy fully, to perish or lose." Now when one reads that they automatically assume under their 21st century thinking that it means that the soul of the unsaved person ceases to exist. That is not the case however. Consider this analogy. A housewife in her duties for the day changes a light bulb and as she is changing it she drops it on the floor and it shatters. Now the bulb as been "destroyed" and its normal function has ceased, but it has not been "annihilated" by any means. The shards of glass and the filament are still there. The bulb has been destroyed but not annihilated. The next word in question is the Greek "geenna," translated "hell." "Gehenna" was a perpetually smoldering garbage dump outside of Jerusalem and the rabbis of that day threatened the unbelievers with Gehenna. Jesus however, stated that those who rejected God’s offer of salvation would participate in everlasting Gehenna. (Matthew 18:8, 25:41,46) These two fates are also linked together in John 3:36 where it is written: " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." In that text we clearly see that those who believe will attain everlasting life and those who believe not will receive the everlasting wrath of God. The same Greek word, "aionios" that we covered earlier, is used in 1 John 5:11, 13. It indicates something that is perpetual or never-ending. Jesus mentioned hell in many other passages such as: Matthew 5:22,29-30, 11:23,16:18,18:9,23:15,23:33, Mark 9:43,45,47, Luke 10:15,12:5,16:23, and Revelation 1:18. The point is really pretty clear as far as I am concerned.
In 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 it is readily displayed that those who "obey not the gospel" will be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again, the Greek "aionios" is used. "Olethros," translated "destruction" means "to ruin, a prolonged from, death and punishment." A soul that is annihilated, or does not exist cannot and could not be punished in any sense. The point is very clear that those who reject Christ will take part in this punishment. Don’t forget the light bulb analogy.
We can tie in John 3:36 and Revelation 20:10 right here. As was stated earlier, the former indicates eternal punishment for unbelievers. Revelation 20:10 states: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the ‘lake of fire and brimstone…" We can also tie in Revelation 14:10 and Romans 2:8-9 into this. "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone…But to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth…tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil…" It is apparent that those who deny the truth will be consigned to everlasting "gehenna" and be "tormented" day and night for eternity. The Greek "meno," translated "abide" means, "to stay (in a given place, state, relation, or expectancy.)" The Greek "basanizo," translated "tormented" means, "to torture, pain toil, torment, toss and/or vex." You cannot vex or torment something that ceases to exist. In John 3:16 Jesus says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life." The Greek word that is translated "perish" is "apollumi." We have already gone over what that word means. You cannot "perish" in heaven.
Lastly, the meaning is very clear when one digs into the Greek. In light of the fact that Jesus and other Scriptures in general, speak of everlasting life and contempt in the same breath. (1 John 2:22-23) It is utterly impossible to reject the doctrine of eternal banishment from God and still hold to the same doctrine of eternal life. You cannot have one without the other.
Yes, I believe it's wrong to wish hell on anyone,even AraRat, though I'm sure he will be there eternally.
"I simply cannot believe in Hell. Those who do believe in it, in a literal sense have clearly never put much thought into it."
I agree with you. I don't think Hell is a literal place like Dante invisioned (no flames please, just an opinion. Pun intended). Suffering my be inferno-like, but I simply believe you take the spirit that guided you in the physical world into the next one. If your a hateful/ate-up terrorist here, that's what your going to be there. And ultimately cut off from all that's good there. Call it what you like.
silly question:
hell was created by god, satan commands hell, satan punishes those sent to hell by god.
if that is the case and satan is doing gods bidding, how can satan be evil?
Only God decides who is damned. I through humble prayer just offer suggestions.
Actually he may have asked to see a Christian at the end and ask to hear the Gospel. According to a source he did even though his people tried hard from keeping him from doing so. Whether or not he recieved Christ I do not know.
Jack took a long look at his speedometer before slowing down: 73 in a 55
zone. Fourth time in as many months. How could a guy get caught so often?
When his car had slowed to 10 miles an hour, Jack pulled over, but only
partially. Let the cop worry about the potential traffic hazard. Maybe some
other car will tweak his backside with a mirror.
The cop was stepping out of his car, the big pad in hand. Bob? Bob from Church?
Jack sunk farther into his trench coat. This was worse than the coming ticket.
A Christian cop catching a guy from his own church. A guy who happened to
be a little eager to get home after a long day at the office. A guy he was about
to play golf with tomorrow.
Jumping out of the car, he approached a man he saw every Sunday, a man
he'd never seen in uniform. "Hi, Bob. Fancy meeting you like this."
"Hello, Jack." No smile.
"Guess you caught me red-handed in a rush to see my wife and kids."
"Yeah, I guess."
Bob seemed uncertain. Good. "I've seen some long days at the office
lately. I'm afraid I bent the rules a bit-just this once." Jack toed at
a pebble on the pavement.
"Diane said something about roast beef and potatoes tonight. Know what I mean?"
"I know what you mean. I also know that you have a reputation in our precinct."
Ouch. This was not going in the right direction. Time to change tactics.
"What'd you clock me at?"
"Seventy. Would you sit back in your car please?"
"Now wait a minute here, Bob. I checked as soon as I saw you. I was
barely nudging 65." The lie seemed to come easier with every ticket.
"Please, Jack, in the car."
Flustered, Jack hunched himself through the still-open door. Slamming it
shut, he stared at the dash board. He was in no rush to open the window.
The minutes ticked by. Bob scribbled away on the pad. Why hadn't
he asked for a driver's license? Whatever the reason, it would be a month
of Sundays before Jack ever sat near this cop again.
A tap on the door jerked his head to the left. There was Bob, a folded
paper in hand. Jack rolled down the window a mere two inches, just
enough room for Bob to pass him the slip.
"Thanks." Jack could not quite keep the sneer out of his voice.
Bob returned to his police car without a word. Jack watched his retreat
in the mirror. Jack unfolded the sheet of paper. How much was
this one going to cost? Wait a minute. What was this? Some kind of joke?
Certainly not a ticket. Jack began to read:
"Dear Jack, Once upon a time I had a daughter. She was six when killed
by a car. You guessed it - a speeding driver. A fine and three months in jail, and
the man was free. Free to hug his daughters. All three of them.
I only had one, and I'm going to have to wait until Heaven before I can
ever hug her again. A thousand times I've tried to forgive that man.
A thousand times I thought I had. Maybe I did, but I need to do it again.
Even now. Pray for me. And be careful, Jack, my son is all I have
left.
-Bob"
Jack turned around in time to see
Bob's car pull away and head down the road.
Jack watched until it disappeared. A full 15 minutes later, he too, pulled
away and drove slowly home, praying for forgiveness and hugging a
surprised wife and kids when he arrived.
Life is precious. Handle with care.
This is an important message, please pass it along to your friends.
Drive safely and carefully. Remember, cars are not the only thing
recalled by their maker.
Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread
like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord,
and the sanctity of life, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how when you go to forward this message, you will not send it to
many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe,
or what they will think of you for sending it to them.
Funny how you can be more worried about what other people think of you
than what God thinks of you.
It was this guy...http://www.leadingtheway.org/
During our time here we met with Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (view photo), and the heads of the Orthodox churches (Syrian, Greek, and Coptic). We also enjoyed visits with Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger of Israel (view photo) and Gadi Golan, Israel 's Minister of Foreign Affairs (view photo).
As we prepared for our meeting with President Arafat, we prayed together and read from Matthew 10:19-20, "... Do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you."
President Arafat's compound in Ramallah (in the West Bank ) is a myriad of rubble, twisted metal, and destroyed vehicles. It was a poignant reminder of the violence in that region. Inside the compound, we found Arafat sitting behind a simple chair and desk. He jumped up to greet us with handshakes and the traditional Arab kiss.
Read Luke 16: 20-25 and Rev 20.
It's real, and there is only one way to avoid it.
According to scripture the lost will join "the rich man" from Luke 16 in hell at death
until the final judgment when all the lost will join Satan and the fallen angels in the lake of fire.
"Know therefore that God exacteth less from thee than thine iniquities deserveth."
God is just, is righteous in all His dealings with creation and rewards men appropriately.
Any other involvement is none of our business...
Concerning your response to post #26, please see #43. Based on the content of that post, I believe post #26 (in reply to #12) - what you replied to - was incomplete (and appeared to be establishing the quotes which #43 was intended to address). Ooops.
I have no issues whatsoever respecting #43.
You express an all too common reasoning, however, "logical" thinking has absolutely nothing to do with it.
God's ways are not our ways. He doesn't think like we think. Look at it from His perspective. He made the universe and all that's in it. He made us. One could say we owe Him just for that alone. Without him, we don't exist. He is Lord.
Add to that, He sends His Son to make a way for us to return to the God of our creation. The retaliation of the world being so great that only a pure sacrifice will bridge this gulf.
His sacrifice is unfathonable and Jesus' obeys.
From God's perspective now, what else can He do and what response is just for the rejection of His Son?
He is an emotional and passionate God full of unending burning love for us, but the point often missed is that He is also Holy, and will not allow unrighteousness into His presence.
http://www.preparetoleave.com/home.html
Maybe not, but it's alright to say "I hope he gets everything he deserves."
Good answer. I'll remember that next time.
Yes.
God condemned some the "sons of Judah" because amongst other things they sunk so low as to burn their children alive. It was something detestable to him, so detestable he killed them according to Jeremiah 7:30-34.
But people believe God himself would do this to people? Burn them as they're conscious, FOREVER? He didn't even punish the evil people who burned their children this way. He said they'd be destroyed off the face of the earth. And the dead bodies of this people must become food for the flying creatures of the heavens and for the beasts of the earth, with nobody to make [them] tremble. These were people that did something the Bible says God didn't even imagine, burning their children alive. But he punished them with destruction. If He wouldn't do it to them, why would he do it to the sinners who walk the earth today?
To those who say "we can't know God's ways", we CAN know the kind of person God is. He wants us to know the kind of father He is. He's NOT this kind of father. God is love.
And I wonder about people. If they truly believed that their neighbors and fellow human beings had this fate in store, wouldn't you think they'd be more proactive about spreading the good news of salvation? They wouldn't go about their lives, going to church once a week and maybe, at best, "living by example". Not if they truly love their neighbors.
Besides, fire doesn't work that way. Fire destroys. It doesn't keep anything alive under any circumstance. Fire has always been a symbol of destruction. The Gehenna that is interpreted to represent "hell" was a place the Jews went to destroy their refuse. DESTROY.
You said:
give them oblivion. Erase them from our collective memories and from the history of the world.
I believe humans were intended to live forever, and because of sin, they die (and are not conscious, Jesus compared it to sleep), but there is still the hope that they can live again, God can bring them back and give them life. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death (not eternal life but with burning). There have been some wicked people, truly deserving of punishment. But I don't believe that punishment is to be burned alive for all eternity!
"The Lord keepeth all them that love him: but all the wicked he will DESTROY." Psalm 144:20
It's not just the wicked who will be destroyed though.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:14
Death itself (which Paul calls the last enemy) will one day be destroyed in the lake of fire (again, it destroys).
I understand your concerns but I hope you can reconsider God and His Word the Bible OOP.
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