Posted on 12/07/2004 7:28:32 PM PST by naturalman1975
IT was one of those extremely rare moments when I found myself agreeing with John Howard. Asked what he thought of Sydney Lord Mayor Clover Moore's reported plans to make Sydney's Christmas celebrations low-key and generic, the Prime Minister slammed them as "silly", "ridiculous" and "political correctness from central casting".
Out of sensitivity for a multicultural society, Moore was reported to have said she did not want the celebrations "to push any one religious belief".
In fact, Moore had said nothing of the sort. Quite the contrary: the council is increasing its Christmas celebration spending this year by 50per cent. The words were spoken by Jeff Fisher, chief executive of fast-food chain Oporto following news that the chain had banned a nativity display from its franchise in Hornsby in northern Sydney. Media had put the words in the wrong mouth, but Howard's assessment of them remained true.
Every Christmas it seems we go through this farce. Last year, Stonnington Council in Melbourne removed the word Christmas from its celebrations and prevented speakers at a carols night from quoting the Bible. Some kindergartens and daycare centres have stopped having Christmas parties, instead having end-of-year or fairy parties.
All this, it seems, is being done to include Australia's religious and cultural minorities. This is supposed to foster social harmony and tolerance.
But it doesn't. It does exactly the opposite. When Channel Seven's Sunrise recently ran an interactive segment on the issue, a common theme in the responses of viewers legitimately aggrieved by this emasculation of Christmas was anger towards minority groups -- especially Muslims -- who were cast as cultural warriors against the majority.
Muslims may not celebrate Christmas but it is ridiculous to suspect they are behind this absurd trend. Jesus is a revered, prophetic figure in Islam and, accordingly, we are the least likely to be offended by other religious groups celebrating his birth. An anti-Christmas campaign is more consistent with aggressive atheism than any Islamic imperative.
In fact, I know no member of any religious minority, Muslim or otherwise, who asked for or even wants this. In my experience, religious minorities are far more concerned that their right to religious expression is respected and protected. That, surely, is a right belonging no less to the majority than to minorities.
Driving Christmas underground only erodes this treasured Australian norm and that is far more troubling to me than any Christmas celebration. I find the idea of restraining religious expression substantially more offensive than I find any nativity display. The impoverishment of Christmas is done more on behalf of religious minorities than by them.
This is where political correctness loses the plot; what purports to inspire tolerance instead inspires hostility and intolerance. Diverse, vibrant and tolerant societies are created by allowing eclectic cultural and religious expressions, celebrations included, to flourish. You don't achieve that by surrendering a culture, replacing it with bland meaninglessness.
Denying the Christianity in Christmas or, worse, doing away with it altogether helps no one. This is not multiculturalism. It is anti-culturalism.
Waleed Aly, a Melbourne lawyer, is a member of the Islamic Council of Victoria executive.
That's a myth. Yes, I understand that it seems that we do - given the old USSR, etc., not to mention some "outspoken Atheists" like Madelyn Murray - but many atheists (at least on the internet forums) appear to be "libertarian" and, yes, even conservative sometimes.
The organizations, though, like American Atheists, are definitely socialist-leaning, but they have trouble getting atheists to join.
IMHO, your definitions are right on the mark.
Just to clarify, though, I do agree with capital-A Atheists on a few issues - like Separation of Church and State - but I would agree on that one even if I were still a practicing Catholic.
P.S. It would be nice if there were a ping list for us. Anyone want to start one? I'm not online often enough, or I'd start one myself.
"You have my argument, and your failure to refute it shows the foolishness of religious bigotry."
Well, I *have* refuted your argument, right down to the ground, and your failure to concede that shows the foolishness of God-hating bigotry.
"Explain your claim that Christian extremists are a threat to our society."
People who claim that generally mean that Christian extremists are a threat to vices they want to be free to indulge in without censure.
After all, not so very long ago it was hard to get a divorce, contraception was not readily available, and adultery and fornication were as illegal as homosexual sodomy.
By saying that people who believe these things are immoral are "extremists," a person who wishes to engage in these vices hopes to win a summary judgement and prevent discussion of the issues on the merits.
While it's unfortunate to see this on FR, it's a very common stratagem on the left: "There's nothing to talk about. My position is tolerant, yours is extreme. End of story."
As Thomas Sowell noted in a recent column, "It's amazing how many people think they can answer an argument by attributing bad motives to those who disagree with them. Using this kind of reasoning, you can believe or not believe anything about anything, without having to deal with facts or logic."
You can protest all you like, I never said anything about that. Tell your families that they are foolish and there is no God, protest their involvement all you want. And have the courage of your convictions, and the consequences.
As to participating, go ahead and do the Santy Claus nonsense, I never said you shouldn't. But it isn't Christmas. And don't pretend that real believers and Christians should buy into the pagan nonsense and that you are part of the real Christmas. You aren't.
And to go to church where people are worshipping God, and calling it "fun", like it was a spectacle of some sort for you amusement, because it's fun, and you want your share of fun, is despicable. Those church pews could be seating real Christians, not pagans there for the show.
We're not going to banish ourselves from enjoying the fun,
Shame on you.
and our families don't want us to do that, either.
Your families probably have hope that you will see the light.
I suppose we should just banish ourselves from all the festivities while at the same time keeping our mouths shut...?
Bingo!
Why not just tell the truth? That you don't believe in God much less the Savior, and you concider the whole thing just a "fun" diversion from your hopeless life and stay home and eat the cookies and keep your hypocritical butt out of church where you are taking up the space that could be used for the purpose of worship.
That's the problem with so many of you people, you want it both ways.
You remind me of the goofy Unitarians. They want all the benefits of a church as long as they don't have to believe anything.
"I want Christmas, as long as there is no Christ".
You people have all your own holidays, enjoy them! Groundhog Day, Sweetest Day, Kwwanza, Labor Day, May Day and all the rest of your secular high holy days.
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That's a myth.
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I suggest you read up again on the writings of various Communists. Atheism is a foundational tenet of Communism. The phrase "Opiate of the masses" was not coined by a libertarian.
ping
You have some serious issues.
Part of the reason I do permit my children to participate in Christmas festivities (and, btw, don't worry, we haven't taken space in a pew yet - my first post was referring to "other" atheists who sit in church every Sunday because their families are sitting there too) is that I want them to learn to understand and respect, rather than fear, Christianity.
If you have a problem with that, then I pity you.
Please don't take my words out of context. When I said, "That's a myth," I was responding to the claim that atheists themselves adhere to "communism". I thought my post was very clear. But let me make it more clear: Communists may be atheists, but that doesn't mean that all, or even most, atheists are communists.
YOU said YOU go to mass as a tourist. Now you change the story and say it's about some other unnamed atheists.
You pity me? Save your pity for yourself.
You insult me, not pity me. You go to mass as a "tourist". You are sickening and insulting.
But hey, I'm glad we amuse you. Next time go to Disney World instead.
Protagoras,
I'm sorry if I insulted you. I guess I can see now how you interpreted my first post as meaning that "I" myself go to church every Sunday. I did use the word "we" at the beginning of the post, but I meant that in a general sense.
Here it is again: "Technically, I'm an atheist, and I know other atheists, too. We all celebrate Christmas complete with trees, lights, gifts, and so on, and maybe even mass (though we're there more as tourists than anything else). Many are married to believers and sit in church with their wives or husbands every Sunday (though they probably wish they didn't have to)."
I'm not one of those "many". I have intended to bring my children to church, but haven't gotten around to it, yet. That's why I said: Don't worry - we haven't used up your pew space yet. However, when I do get around to it, we'll be there as "tourists" just like you might go to a Synagogue as a "tourist". That is, you would be there respectfully (I'm assuming) appreciating the faith of other people. I'm not trying to insult you or anyone with that term "tourist".
And that's all I can say. If you still want to be offended, there's nothing more that I can add.
I would never go to any worship service as a tourist.
And you should never teach your children that Christmas is a secular holiday, because you would be lying to them. Of course, as an atheist, I guess that's not a problem.
Anyway, have fun on Santy Claus day, and remember, if you try to secularize Christmas and pretend it's something it is not, you are a hypocrite.
I don't have a problem with atheists, it's not their fault, but don't try to horn in on someone else's holiday because you think it's fun. You can have it both ways only if you are a hypocrite.
Christmas is not a secular holiday.
Oh, c'mon now, you DO have a problem with people who don't share your beliefs. I think that's pretty apparent. But, imho, it's a free country, or at least it should be, and you're entitled to the right of disliking people.
But if you think that Christmas should be observed as a federal holiday, that Christmas traditions should be celebrated in public schools and in taxpayer-funded displays, how can you turn around and say that the same people being forced to observe/celebrate it should not participate? Now THAT'S hypocritical.
Btw, if you don't want other people "horning in on" your holiday, then maybe you can start a movement to take Christmas off the federal holiday calendar. While it's there, it IS a holiday for all of us, Christians, Jews, and even atheists.
If it hadn't been named as a federal holiday, you might've kept it as sacred as you'd have liked, only celebrated by "true Christians." By making it a federal holiday, observed by all Americans, all the secularism was invited into it.
No I don't. Only with those who pretend they do. The ones who spit on it any chance they get, then pretend they embrace it when it suits them, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS, condescend. You have the problem my friend, not I.
But, imho, it's a free country, or at least it should be, and you're entitled to the right of disliking people.
I do have that right, but I don't exercise it much. Certainly not in the way that you are trying to mislead people into thinking. But hey, like I said, lying is no problem for you folks, I mean, what would the consequences be?
But if you think that Christmas should be observed as a federal holiday,
I don't. You made that up.
that Christmas traditions should be celebrated in public schools
I don't think there should even be GOVERNMENT schools (most schools are public) much less that some atheist government employee should be involved in my children's' celebration of salvation. You made that up too.
and in taxpayer-funded displays,
My, you have a vivid imagination, you make up all kinds of fantasies.
how can you turn around and say that the same people being forced to observe/celebrate it should not participate?
Forced? You are delusional. I urge you to pull your children out. Just like I urge Christians to pull their kids out of "winter celebrations", and government schools.
BTW, if you don't want other people "horning in on" your holiday,
"Horning in"? I invite anyone to join in if they are open to the meaning and actually joining in as potential believers, but I detest people who demand in, and then want to change it to their bizarre belief system. They want to secularize it. What they should do is just ignore it. BUT,,,they are hypocrites.
While it's there, it IS a holiday for all of us, Christians, Jews, and even atheists.
No it isn't, it's a day off work. The holiday is not there to favor Christians, it's there to acknowledge that Christians aren't working that day, and all the rest of you can't possibly keep things running. Not to mention that you don't want to work, you want to slide in and take advantage of the situation. So you can pretend you are Christians for the fun day and ignore the real meaning.
By making it a federal holiday, observed by all Americans, all the secularism was invited into it.
No, all the secular people were invited to chill out while we celebrated. Not join in and make sickening condescending remarks while attending Christmas Mass like it was going to the movie or something, an amusement.
You people have all your own holidays, Labor Day and the like, celebrate them, have a ball. But have enough integrity to say, "I don't believe in any of this "Jesus stuff", I'm going to go along as always, it's just another day for me". But that won't happen, because you are a hypocrite.
Actually, Protagoras, it turns out that we agree on more things than I supposed. No, I didn't "make up stuff", as you put it, but obviously I did make assumptions about you based on your other posts. I assumed that you were one of those typical "conservatives" in the tradition of Sean Hannity et al.
But, as per your last post, you (1) don't think Christmas should be a federal holiday, (2) don't think there should be government schools, (3) don't think there should be taxpayer-funded religious displays (though your position on that one wasn't very clear), and finally (4) urge people to pull their children out of public schools.
And, guess what? I agree with you on every single one of those four points. I already homeschool my children, so I don't have to take them out of school, by the way.
I DO NOT make "condescending remarks while attending Christmas mass," as you accused. You also assumed that I don't want to work on Christmas. Quite the contrary, I worked almost every Christmas for about 5 years straight with no complaint. However, I don't think private employers, some of whom aren't even Christian, should be forced by state law to release their employees from work for that day or to pay them extra; the decision to pay their employees extra or give them that day off should be left to the employers themselves.
As for your lamenting on the secularism of the Christmas holiday, I won't comment further. You're free to feel the way you do about it. And I'm free to celebrate the day my way, with gift-giving and family.
So, with that, I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas, Protagoras! Whether you want to hear that from me or not.
I don't care if they give their employees the day off. And they do not force anyone else to declare it a holiday. So, you are incorrect on that nonsense.
(3) don't think there should be taxpayer-funded religious displays
No tax money should be spent, but people should not be prohibited from having their displays on government property, on their holidays. I just fail to see the value or urgency of such displays.
I DO NOT make "condescending remarks while attending Christmas mass," as you accused.
Please reference the post where I said that precise thing.
You also assumed that I don't want to work on Christmas.
No I didn't. I made a general reference.
However, I don't think private employers, some of whom aren't even Christian, should be forced by state law to release their employees from work for that day
Please provide proof for this, I have never seen such laws. IF they exist, they are wrong.
So, with that, I wish you and your family a very merry Christmas, Protagoras! Whether you want to hear that from me or not.
I don't mind hearing that, in fact, I thank you for your wishes if they are heartfelt. I am a Christian and it is a Christian holiday, not a secular one, so it's appropriate for you to say that to me.
Have a nice Dec. 25th. and 26th and 27th,and.........
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