Posted on 12/08/2004 7:11:44 AM PST by areafiftyone
CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait (AP) -- Disgrunted U.S. soldiers complained to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Wednesday about the lack of armor for their vehicles and long deployments, drawing a blunt retort from the Pentagon chief.
"You go to war with the Army you have," he said in a rare public airing of rank-and-file concerns among the troops.
In his prepared remarks earlier, Rumsfeld had urged the troops - mostly National Guard and Reserve soldiers - to discount critics of the war in Iraq and to help "win the test of wills" with the insurgents.
Some of soldiers, however, had criticisms of their own - not of the war itself but of how it is being fought.
Army Spc. Thomas Wilson, for example, of the 278th Regimental Combat Team that is comprised mainly of citizen soldiers of the Tennessee Army National Guard, asked Rumsfeld in a question-and-answer session why vehicle armor is still in short supply, nearly two years after the start of the war that ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
"Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?" Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense.
Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.
"We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson said after asking again.
Rumsfeld replied that troops should make the best of the conditions they face and said the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible.
And, the defense chief added, armor is not always a savior in the kind of combat U.S. troops face in Iraq, where the insurgents' weapon of choice is the roadside bomb, or improvised explosive device that has killed and maimed hundreds, if not thousands, of American troops since the summer of 2003.
"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and it can (still) be blown up," Rumsfeld said.
Asked later about Wilson's complaint, the deputy commanding general of U.S. forces in Kuwait, Maj. Gen. Gary Speer, said in an interview that as far as he knows, every vehicle that is deploying to Iraq from Camp Buehring in Kuwait has at least "Level 3" armor. That means it at least has locally fabricated armor for its side panels, but not necessarily bulletproof windows or protection against explosions that penetrate the floorboard.
Speer said he was not aware that soldiers were searching landfills for scrap metal and used bulletproof glass.
During the question-and-answer session, another soldier complained that active-duty Army units sometimes get priority over the National Guard and Reserve units for the best equipment in Iraq.
"There's no way I can prove it, but I am told the Army is breaking its neck to see that there is not" discrimination against the National Guard and Reserve in terms of providing equipment, Rumsfeld said.
Yet another soldier asked, without putting it to Rumsfeld as a direct criticism, how much longer the Army will continue using its "stop loss" power to prevent soldiers from leaving the service who are otherwise eligible to retire or quit.
Rumsfeld said that this condition was simply a fact of life for soldiers at time of war.
"It's basically a sound principle, it's nothing new, it's been well understood" by soldiers, he said. "My guess is it will continue to be used as little as possible, but that it will continue to be used."
In his opening remarks, Rumsfeld stressed that soldiers who are heading to Iraq should not believe those who say the insurgents cannot be defeated or who otherwise doubt the will of the military to win.
"They say we can't prevail. I see that violence and say we must win," Rumsfeld said.
When it comes to supporting our troops vs supporting the administration we see where true loyalities lay.
IMO, Rumsfeld is not holy and I get a kick out of SPC Wilson's feistiness.
I've been watching this deployment throughout and I have come to the conclusion that it is not winnable in the current PC environment. The military brass and the Administration are taking the PC route. They both have a serious disconnect with the boots on the ground. Even after Sites sold his video to the networks, the Marine brass defended their policy of embeds. The Admin waited way too long to go into Fallujah.
I'm sick and tired of Rumsfeld's crustiness and grouchiness, as a response to every valid concern raised. He was the one who denied the commanders the manpower they requested at the start of OIF. He lacks communication skills and teamwork ability, among other things.
The Administration PC policy of leaving us unsafe at home makes a foreign deployment for our U.S. soldiers a farce. This is my first time publicly saying, Bring the troops home and have them defend our borders.
OEF is justified by 9/11. Other than that, GWB pledged in his initial inauguration address that he would REDUCE our foreign entanglements/interventions.
Rumsfeld will be announcing his retirement within the coming month.
"Where I complain from is irrelevant, but it is part of my tax dollars paying the salaries of these men as well as their armaments. A United Sates Soldier should meet the highest of standards of deportment. Those who complain in the public forum put us all at risk by showing our enemies divisiveness and weakness."
Blame Rumsfeld and the Pentagon leadership for inviting tv cameras along. It is the leadership which is responsible for all these problems with embedded "journalists", and their portrayal of the effort.
It is not the fault of the troops. It's not their job when they are in Falluja to put on a show for the camera. And, this was probably their only chance to voice a concern to Rumsfeld.
It is HIS fault that he invited cameras along. HE should know better. 19yo kids in the military aren't responsible for saving the Pentagon leadership from its own mistakes.
My husband, a Naval Reserve officer, spent TWO STRAIGHT YEARS in the Middle East, having been recalled to active duty on 11/1/01. Our children were three and five at the time and lost the care and companionship of their father for nearly 1/2 their lives to that point! My husband joined the Reserve after active duty because he wanted to continue to serve. He got NOTHING for doing that other than the opportunity to step up to the plate when he was needed. No one who knows either of us would EVER state that we were nothing but honored and proud to serve in this way and certainly did not lament our separation.
I take great offense to your generalizing. Frankly, you could say that plenty of active duty just joined for a free education as well.
That said, I don't abide whiners, military or not. However, there is no reason that legitimate safety issues can't be raised. I think this article, like so many, was written with a point of view in mind. The truth may be quite far from the story.
You are so right!
This is a testimony to our country, our freedoms and our great military! Let's see the French military be allowed, encouraged to ask these type of questions.
Uh, I forgot, the French don't have a military that actually goes to war. I could see them now..." Messieur Secretary, We do not have the croissants warm in the morning, why is that? "
Many NG members are former active duty Army/Air Force/Navy/Marines who decided to join the guard to get a little extra money for now and a decent pension when they hit 60. They didn't like the terms of full time active duty, but due to the force restructure under Klintoon, the NG has turned into just another regular component. They were too far time invested to walk away and now they don't like the situation.
I think there are many good NG troops serving today, but the reality is there are those who have no qualms with asking embarassing questions to get their political jabs in.
*shrug* Soldiers have griped since the beginning of soldiering.
"D@mn it, why does the centurion make us put up these ****ing pallisades EVERY time we stop?"
Plus, you KNOW anything positive that was done will be completely ignored by the press.
Troops always complain...
And we go to every war not quite as prepared as we would like...
and once we get there we have to make changes...
but in the Marine Corps we learn to
Improvise, adapt and overcome!
You are exactly right. If Rumsfield was serious about his "tough question" dialogue, I don't believe they should have allowed any cameras or civilians in the meeting.
Instead, it looks like a creepy PR move gone bad.
A happy Marine is a bitchin' Marine!
Ya know as miserable as conditions were in 'Nam from the blistering heat of the summers to the cold and constant wetness of the monsoons, trying to sleep in water at night in the mountains with your teeth chattering away, going without food and water and/or ammo or supplies because there were no choppers flying in the monsoons all the while killing and being killed or mutilated; I don't recall anyone ever complaining...we just knew we had a job to do and we tried to make the best of the situation and adapt, improvise and overcome the enemy.
It was just understood that only pussies would complain!
And there weren't any pussies in our company!
Semper Fi,
Kelly
I don't think it was an idiotic statement at all....simply the truth.
When military action is required you cant wait until everything is just the way you want it, you have to go with what you've got, which is exactly what we did.
The low casualty rate we have incurred is a testament to our troops having the best training and equipment in the world. Could there be better armor on the vehicles and more kevlar for for the troops? Of course, and we are in the process of providing this equipment. It would be great if we could just clap our hands and all this stuff would magically appear but it doesn't work that way.
The questions that were put to Rummy by the soldier's were legitimate and I think he answered them honestly.
I have no doubt we will do everything in our power to supply our troops with whatever they need to succeed and I have no doubt the men and women serving know that.
Did I break a commandment by questioning the wisdom of your hero GWB<<<
I feel like I'm in DU! Being a smart-mouth because my personal opinion does not match yours is pretty immature. I prefer adult conversation.
He got NOTHING for doing that other than the opportunity to step up to the plate when he was needed<<<<
Sounds like a good man and a true Soldier.
Read the rest of my posts after the first one, you may see that I was not talking about all Soldiers. Some serve our Country, others expect the Country to serve them. Your husband and your family sacrificed for the the Country, I say Thanks and Well Done.
BS. Don't ask a Spec 4 his opinion if you don't want it.
Integrity for that young SPC means asking the question. Integrity for Rumsfeld means answering it.
No, he's being as frank with them as they were with him. I'm sure he expected that since he set up the format. His answer is correct, we go into any war with the assets available for deployment at the time. Yes, it does take time to fully gear up for providing all of the upgrades needed for equipment and yes, some units are not going to see the improvements right away. It's a fact of life in the military and if he had BS'd them with a bunch of promises that things would be fixed the next day or week then I really would be disappointed. On D-day a lot of the equipment was lost, leaving the troops who made it ashore minimally supplied. They were resupplied pretty quickly, but that is because all of the equipment had been stockpiled for 2 years prior. Not the case here and with the off-shoring of most of our heavy industrial capacity over the last 30 years we don't have the advantage of turning out a million tons of armor, or anything else per day anymore.
"Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?" Wilson asked.
Bunch of whiners! What ever happened to sucking it up and moving on????
Integrity for Rumsfeld means answering it.<<
And he did. Just because a few dont like the answer. . .
Bunch of whiners! What ever happened to sucking it up and moving on????<<<<
Right.
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