PAJAMAHADEEN ALERT: Facts on Humvee Armor Big Media Ignores

[Doctor Raoul]

See the following articles:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_10.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/203200_armor10.html

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m998.htm

From those articles and webpages, here's some facts:

19,400 Humvees in Iraq
5,900 were shipped from factory with armor
9,000 upgraded with kits in theater

TODAY 77% of Humvees in Iraq are armored


Unarmored Humvees aren't supposeed to go off base.
Unarmored Humvees travel between bases on a flatbed truck.

Of 9,386 armor kits shipped to Iraq, 9,143 have been installed.
That's 97% installed, only 3% to go.

There are at least 16 varients of the Humvee:

M998 cargo/troop carrier without winch
M1038 cargo/troop carrier with winch
M966 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, without winch
M1036 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, with winch
M1045 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, without winch
M1046 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, with winch
M1025 armament carrier, basic armor, without winch
M1026 armament carrier, basic armor, with winch
M1043 armament carrier, supplemental armor, without winch
M1044 armament carrier, supplemental armor, with winch
M996 mini-ambulance, 2-litter, basic armor
M997 maxi-ambulance, 4-litter, basic armor
M1035 soft-top ambulance, 2-litter
M1037 S-250 shelter carrier, without winch
M1042 S-250 shelter carrier, with winch
M1069 tractor for M119 105-mm light gun

FROM THE SEATTLE TIMES ARTICLE:

The Humvees to be factory-armored by O'Gara-Hess have some different specifications than the models shipped without armor, Woodward said. So increasing production requires careful planning.

"It's not like making a Big Mac," he said. "There are so many configurations. ... You can't just whip them through like a big grill in a McDonald's."

Today on Rush's show, he had a caller that swears she knows people that are buying steel locally there in the Pacific Northwest and sending it by UPS to soldiers in Iraq.

I called UPS. They will ship to Iraq, but you have to pick up your shippment at their offices in Baghdad or Basra. They don't deliver to anyone's door.

Also, length, width and height can't total more than 165 inches.

The weight limit on packages to Iraq, 150 lbs.

Yeah, ship armor plate by UPS, that'll work.

Here's the phone number 1-800-782-7892 - Intl. Export / Import Services, press "0" to get a person.

A caller to Dom Giordano's show last night had three very good observations. The handwringing liberals posture this as "if you only cared enough, people wouldn't die" even in a war.

He also said it depended on believing that people in the Pentagon would put $$$ before a soldier's life.

Last, he noted that the HMMWV replced the jeep and that no one would expect even an armored jeep to do what we have armored HMMWVs doing.

Rock Island Arsenal has a piece of this according to the caller and LTC Scott Rutter USA(Ret) and that Durbin's backyard. Obviously those take more time to reach the soldiers than those modified in theater.

Is Durbin a hypocrite for saying anything while he protects the pork at home?

[Squantos]

Glad ya made it back safe ........Thanks for taking your turn in the barrel !

[FBD]

yeah, I got my facts mixed up, thanks for correcting me.
It is the add-on armor kits for older models that have the suspension problems, etc.

www.InsideDefense.com Vol. 16, No. 35 -- August 30, 2004:

"The additional armor has been problematic for many of the older vehicles, causing suspension and drivetrain wear.

“All humvees are not made to be armored,” said a spokesman for AM General.

To mitigate some of the strain, the Army is adding horsepower and beefing up the suspension of old Humvees through its recapitalization program, said Steve Roberts, assistant product manager for Humvee recapitalization within the programexecutive office for combat support combat service support."

"AM General also is beginning to make two new models that have stronger chassis designed to better withstand the impact of armor..."

[JasonC]

Direct hits are outnumbered by near misses by over 10 to 1. Sloppy thinking doesn't save anybody. If a FF hellfire missile hits an M-1 in the back of the turret, the armor "doesn't help" either. But overall casualties inside M-1s are miniscule.

[Gunrunner2]

The applause was more a result of a question that momentarily "stumped" a power-that-be, than an actual vindication of the question.

Soldier, young one's mostly, love to tweak the higher-ups and get away with it.

[BroJoeK]

ATTENTION!* All right listen up all you pajamahadeen! This is your "Secretary of Offense"** speaking. I'm so sick of hearing about up-armor and down-armor, I could just spit. And you better not get in my line of fire. Got that?

So we are going to solve this little problem RIGHT NOW! EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, there will be zero Os strutting their stuff in class III Hummers until every one of their Es is properly equipped. Understand?

If I catch one of you Os hiding in a class III, when your troops are without, I will personally deliver three Purple Hearts to your head and shoulders and run you out of here faster than Lt Kerry left Vietnam. Got that?

OK, as you were. Now go out and kill some terrorists, so we can get the hell out here.

*"Attention" = put down your mouse and read what I'm going say.
** "Secretary of Offense" = just kidding, just another pajama guy.

[Gunrunner2]

Ever hear of "parody," "sarcasm," and "irony."

Main Entry: 1par·o·dy 1 : a literary or musical work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for COMIC EFFECT OR IN RIDICULE 2 : a feeble or ridiculous imitation

Main Entry: sar·casm 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain 2 a : a mode of SATIRICAL WIT DEPENDING FOR ITS EFFECT ON BITTER, CAUSTIC, AND OFTEN IRONIC LANGUAGE USUALLY DIRECTED AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL b : the use or language of sarcasm

Main Entry: iro·ny 1 : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning -- called also Socratic irony 2 a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : A USUALLY HUMOROUS OR SARDONIC LITERARY STYLE OR FORM CHARACTERIZED BY IRONY c : an ironic expression or utterance

[Dark Wing]

ping

[yoe]

There is said to be a shortage of the steel needed - China is the big buyer........

[Psycho_Bunny]

The context of parody and irony you're thinking of is one of derision:  like calling someone who posts an anti-Jew screed at DemocraticUnderground a member of the "DUhstapo".

Over the years I've had a few posts deleted by Admin Moderator but would I call him the "FReestapo"?  No.  Because I respect the mods and the posts were made in anger and should have been pulled.

"Pajamahadeen" isn't amusing because it's derisive of ourselves.  And the context in which it was created had absolutely nothing to do with the Middle East.  Had the word not come up in the CBS/Rather scandal.....had the situation in some way actually been about the Middle-East...the word might be slightly clever.

And to be perfectly honest, my earliest memory of world events was Islamic nut-jobs over-running our embassy in Iran.  By the time the World Trade Center came down I'd seen 20-odd years of muslims cutting off people's heads, blowing innocent people up and treating a quarter of the world's female population like sh!t.

I'm all out of the ability to find anything humorous enough about Arabs, or the psychosis they call a religion, to want to label myself with any of it.

 

[brushcop]

You are absolutely right. Those that haven't "been there, done that" have no concept of the chain of command, without which there would be a total collapse of morale AND discipline. Touchy-feely must go. And while we're at it, let's get rid of the stupid "An Army of One" motto, what happened to the idea of teamwork??

Looking at your handle makes me feel good. Our youngest son served five years in the 1st Cav (2/7), then 2ID now the 3ID which will deploying for Iraq in January. On Class As, they are allowed to wear the crest of their old unit that they feel is most significant (in addition to their present unit), he wears the Garry Owen crest.

The Nat. Guard whiner needs to get the facts and sign Art. 15 papers...

RB

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Doctor Raoul]

Does "Pajamahadeen" sound like a derivative word you want to label yourself with?

It was a member of the media that coined the phrase and I don't think it was all in jest, so like the liberal victim groups that adopt the slurs against them, I decided to use it.

Say it loud, say it proud, I'm a Pajamahadeen!!!

[R. Scott]

I can't wait for the scene, Dan getting into the CBS helicopter, suddenly turns around, raises both arms and makes the "V" signs with both hands...

Oh come on now – Nixon wasn’t that bad.
Actually, I thought he was a pretty good President. His only problem was getting caught being a politician. But you may be right – Rather will try some grandstand scene.

[griswold3]

From our perspective:
Just got a call 12/06/04 from a logistics company about moving some armoured equipment from Ohio to North Carolina. The rates were great! However, I had to turn the loads down because my insurance company would not cover the liability for the loads. (Something about a possible protester causing an accident, etc....)

[exhaustedmomma]

Bookmarked

TRUTH bump

[Doctor Raoul]

Some additional information. Part media bias identified, part my observations.

Another Freeper found the transcript of the Town Meeting. What is fascinating is that the SecDef managed to say 94 words before getting to "...the Army you have..." part.

In those 94 words, he speaks of how much HAS already been done. Hearing those 94 words, people would understand that MOST Humvees in theater are armored. But the media skipped the fact for what they put out there as a snide reply to the soldier.

In addition, the public gets the mistaken impression from liberal media bias, that the soldiers are in the same situation they were in when this whole issue surfaced.

In addition, SecDef put the issue before the Generals present and had them reply too. Hardly the "Shut up and sit down" the liberal media presented as fact.

Here's a point about the media, VERY FEW know "Jack Sh*t" about the military. For about 10, maybe 15 years, as we downsized from 18-20 divisions, cut ships and fighter wings, the question of how many wars could we fight was vigorously discussed. The term was "MRC", Major Regional Conflicts. At the same time, it was pointed out that in modern times, wars rarely are anticipated. The phrase used time and time again was "the next war will be come as you are". Sound familar, sound anything like "You don't always go to war with the Army you like, you go with the Army you have"?

This war, in large part is being fought "as is" because nobody foresaw the need. From the time it became known that additional armor was needed to now, we've armored 77% of the HMMWVs. Check the math, it's not the horror show the liberal media and the grave robbing Democrats like to portray.

Had anyone proposed a few years ago that we armor as many HMMWVs as we need now, the liberals and Democrats would be wetting the bed about "pork" for the military's friends in industry. They wouold be pointing out that there's no scenario where everyone need body armor or armored vehicles.

There's a couple of articles out there where Slate.com talks about a backlog in HMMWV armoring, well check out the chart hard, because they're misquoting the total for ALL tactical vehicles. Hey SLATE, if nice to have leaked documents, but let's try and read them next time.

And to point out how liberals and Democrats just don't get it, there's a very good remark made earlier on this thread, "Imagine an armored gasoline tanker". The moronic left would try to do just that and see it as THE answwer.

One thing we haven't seen the media ask in the aftermath. No one has asked that soldier, or any that applauded whether they personally had pulled stuff from a junk pile.

And as much as I thing the Philadelhia Inquirer is a left wing rag, they did have TWO veruy good, balanced articles on this story and the armor issue.

The stories pointed out a lot of things. Yeah, some units don't have armor, but they'll be trading with a unit that does. It put a lot of perspective that isn't in the WAPO, NYT, CBS and CNN hysteria. It's a problem, but not a BIG problem and it's not a problem that is being ignored.

[exDemMom]

This touchy, feely, crap started back during the Clinton years when senior command was supposed to get in touch with the troop's real feelings.

Which reminds me of an officer's meeting recently. An officer was wondering, if we aren't supposed to fraternize with the enlisted troops, but we are supposed to be friendly and show that we care, where do we draw the line? How long before caring becomes fraternization?

[H.Akston]

Rummy's comment that even an armored vehicle can still be blown up - so don't worry about it - was totally senseless.

Doesn't Rummy believe that the "war on terror" itself is armor for the US?

Even a country that has a "war on terror" can still be blown up, so why not lets just forget the whole thing.

If the US Executive feels like we need protection from WMDs, the troops are quite justified in their concerns about weapons that are a clearer and more present danger.

[x1stcav]

Maam,

I honestly do not know how an NCO or CO deals with the troops today. I came out of Infantry OCS in the late 60's. The lines were clearly delineated and pretty strict. We cared about basic wellfare of the troops, but 'their wellfare' was their ability to accomplish the mission. Beyond that? It was a personal problem best taken up with the Chaplain.

I know things have changed and believe me, I would dearly love to be part of the current military. My hat is off to you currently serving who have to deal with all of the PC.

Still, yours is a much more formidable and effective fighting machine than we ever dreamed of being. And we weren't too damned bad, either.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

Excellent work. And, we can still make lemonade out of these lemons. If the rat/media continues to call for more armor, then we call to cut domestic spending to get the armor. Just as important, we also get more air transports to haul the armor. Then, we let them know they'd been had. [Rumsfeld can later brag about all this, and thank the DNC for its newfound enthusiasm to go against Kerry's anti-armor attitude. "As you now seem to realise, we can never do enough to keep our soldiers safe."] This way, we get newer and better armored personnel carriers. More importantly, we become more mobile with newer and better air transport. And, we cut domestic spending, perhaps a mere cut in domestic increases.