Posted on 02/17/2005 1:53:34 AM PST by DoughtyOne
Excellent missive.
Another nice rant.
PresReagan backed the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. At the time, I was apprehensive about giving a blanket amnesty to illegals. But I stood with Reagan and those in Congress who promoted and finally secured passage of this legislation. The results turned out to be a nightmare and Reagan called it one of the worse decisions he made as POTUS.
The border patrol wasn't properly funded and the new requirements under law that would punish employers who hired illegals, weren't properly enforced.
Anyone who thinks it would be different under the most recent proposals set forward by PresBush, doesn't understand history and the horrible consequences of the IRCA of 1986.
Without a better effort at sealing the borders; without enforcing existing law that punishes employers who hire illegals; and without a halt to all welfare benefit payouts to illegals and their children... NO guest worker program will ever work. The problem of illegal immigration will only be perpetuated and exacterbated, year after year.
In short, make it less comfortable for them.
As it is, I'd be exceedingly grateful if Uncle Sam would merely stop making them feel so damn welcome - no home loans or in-state tuition etc.
BTTT
Bumping for later
If history repeats 1986, we have only ourselves to blame.
BTTT
Bump for later.
Thanks for the ping.
You state your case well, and with passion.
My personal bottom line is that illegal immigrants bother me most when they reach into my wallet. And they are ALLOWED to reach into my wallet because a couple of liberal activist scumbag courts SAY they are allowed to reach into my wallet.
The first order of business is to get rid of the liberal activist scumbag judges. THEN the problem of illegal immigration will begin to take care of itself. A more pro-active border patrol and regular mass deportations will take care of (much of) the rest of the problem.
But first, get the illegals OUT OF MY WALLET.
Regards,
LH
"Your previous thread Illegal Immigration Has Proven to Be a Divisive Issue for the Two of You was pulled within the last hour. Cultural Jihad succeeded - again - in fomenting a flame war and getting the thread pulled."
Seems nothing has changed while I've been away on a "time out". I can't understand why they would want me back, maybe running out of people to ban.
For the sake of posterity, Doughty's fine article:
It would be hard to believe, that there has ever been an issue that has conflicted more citizens of the Republic of the United States of America. Illegal immigration impacts every citizen. It’s an issue that impacts the well being of your home, your neighborhood, your city, the region you live in, your state and the your nation as a whole.
On the face of it, this is an issue that seems to be rather black and white to many people. As a matter of fact, it’s black and white to over 90% of the people on this forum. Laws specifically delineate what is allowable and what isn’t. There is a legal way to conduct this type of activity. There is also an illegal way. Over 90% of you know that. Over 90% of you agree with that.
In 2003, approximately seven hundred and fifty thousand people who had opted to get in line and go gone through the legal process to enter the United States, entered the nation by legal means. By contrast, in 2004, three million people decided to jump in front of those in line, and enter the United States by illegal means. These are the criminal aliens. Their chosen method of entry into the United States of American, and the impact on this nation, is what has prompted this commentary.
The title I chose for tonight’s thoughts on unlawful entry into the United States of America was designed to touch on an issue that too often fails to be addressed. That may be a surprise to some of you, because anyone who frequents this forum knows there has been heated division between segments of forum participants on this issue. What I intend to touch on is not exactly what it might seem on the surface, for I’m not talking about a heated discussion between two forum participants. What I am talking about is the dormant conflict that resides within individuals on this subject. Many of you needn’t approach advocates of getting illegal immigration under control to conduct a heated debate on this topic. What you really need to do is discuss this issue within yourself.
In a recent poll on this forum, over 90% of forum participants stated they were opposed to open borders. Why then is there such a massive amount of discourse on this topic? I would submit that the reason is very simple. Although most of our forum participants would readily acknowledge there are raging battles on this forum over this topic, they are often oblivious to the most raging conflict of all, the one within themselves. I’d like to see if I could explain what I see on this forum. Perhaps it will help. Perhaps it won’t.
I have been an advocate of getting our nation’s borders under control for approximately twenty years. During these twenty years I have seen about every argument that could be made against enforcing our immigration policies. I have also been told that I am a racist, a xenophobe, and a person who should be perfectly at home in Hitler’s inner circle. I’ve also been told that my comments are over the top or perhaps even misguide, myopic or shallow. Mind you, I haven’t been called these names or had these charges made to me by someone from Democrat Underground. It wasn’t the illegal immigrants themselves. No, I’ve had these things said to me by people right here on this forum, which profess to be conservatives.
For whatever reason, entry into this nation by means that are illegal is not a problem for some people. It’s not their issue. I suppose I could understand that if it weren’t for some fairly glaring conflicts. First among those conflicts is the myriad of negative impacts non-lawful entry into this nation imposes across a spectrum of issues; these very people profess to care a great deal about. Let’s talk about some of them.
Most of the people on this forum are stridently pro law. We do not advocate breaking the laws of our nation. We support the police, the FBI and other law enforcement bodies as long as they conduct themselves within their legal mandate. However, when it comes to illegal immigration, it’s as if you could hear the sound of a needle flying off a record. Increasing the border patrol or placing troops on the border to enforce our laws is too much to ask. If illegal immigrants come into contact with law enforcement, it’s considered almost a war crime for the officers to turn the illegal over to INS for deportation. If our law enforcement officers see a group of men that appear to be foreign nationals in a area known to be frequented by illegal aliens seeking to obtain work in the underground economy, these same people find that inappropriate. If INS agents respond to reports of illegal aliens breaking still more laws of our nation by working in businesses that are forbidden to hire them, that is also deemed problematic.
The conflict here is this. Are you a person who supports the laws of our nation? Are you a person who approves of the laws of our nation being enforced? If you’re not, that is something you need to be aware of. Have a little discussion with yourself. Are you a law and order person or not?
Most of the people on this forum are certain that government has gotten too big. It is readily apparent to them, that the citizens of this nation are overtaxed. There are efforts on this forum to start a national sales tax, to eliminate the federal income tax withholding from paychecks. Is over taxation an issue for you? If it is then you must be against the tens of billions of dollars the U.S. taxpayer is requited to pay out in elevated taxes, just to pay the costs of education, healthcare, aid to families with dependent children, food stamps, housing subsidies, reduced public transportation transport fees, cash stipends and other services for illegal aliens and their children.
The conflict is this. If you are against high taxes, then you most certainly must be against illegal aliens remaining inside our nation. Are you? If you’re not, then over-taxation isn’t a problem for you. This is something you should be aware of. Have a little discussion with yourself. Are you against the high rate of taxation or not?
Many people here are quite upset that our public education system is not providing an adequate education to the children of this nation. I’ll bet you are among them. You want our kids to do better on Math, English, the Sciences, well just across the board. Does that sound like you? If so, then it must concern you that the children of U.S. citizens must sit in their classes and read while the children of illegal aliens are immersed in accelerated English programs. I don’t know if you see the commercials we have in California, but out here they hawk pre-school day-care for all children as early as possible. The list of things these kids are supposed to avoid by attending is very long. Still, sitting idly while the children of foreign nationals during the first, second or third grade doesn’t seem to be a problem for the leftists at all. How about you? Is improving education important to you? If so then you’re probably not going to be happy to know that the second largest construction project in the United States, is a construction project in Los Angeles, California. That construction project is designed to put 45 new schools into play by the end of 2005. Note, I’m not talking about 45 new classrooms. I’m talking about 45 new schools. Sound like a lot of schools huh? I’m sure you’ll be thrilled to know that won’t be enough. Los Angeles is spending billions on new schools because they can’t build them fast enough to house all the children of illegal immigrants.
The conflict is this. If you are for our U.S. children getting a better education, you simply cannot think that spending billions to accommodate the children of illegal immigrants is a wise allocation of resources. Like any rational person, you’ll want U.S. funds spent on educating the children of U.S. citizens. Do you actually care about the education of U.S. citizen’s children? If you do then you should see that educating the children of foreign nationals is sapping the tax base out from under them. If you don’t have a problem with this, then you should be aware of it. Have a little discussion with yourself. Are you against spending funds on the children of foreign nationals, while our children’s test scores remain unacceptable? Do you want our children’s education improved or not?
Earlier I touched on an issue of crime. Now I’m going to touch on another. As I stated earlier, our forum participants are generally strong in their support for law and order. Are you? California population is estimated to be between 7 and 15% illegal immigrants. It’s nearly impossible to know what the true percent is. But we do know what our jail and prison populations are made up of. 15 to 30% illegal immigrants populate California’s jails and prisons. Of the first 6000 people arrested during the 1992 riots in Los Angeles, 2000 were illegal immigrants. These numbers indicate that illegal immigrants are over-represented in the commissions of crime.
The conflict is this. If you were for law and order, it would stand to reason that you would like to see the laws of our nation enforced, so that crime could drop by 15 to 30%. Do you support the enforcement of our laws? If not, then this is something you should be aware of. Have a conversation with yourself. Once again, are you a law and order person or not?
Elections are a pretty sacred thing to conservatives. We want them run in legal, honest, above board ways. We want our election laws adhered to. Foreign nationals are not supposed to be able to vote. Congressman Bob Dornan ran for re-election in the mid 1990s against Laura Sanchez. In that election, Dornan was defeated by approximately 720 votes. At that time an organization that had been fronting for illegal immigrants rights in prior years, had been hired by the U.S. government to provide pre-citizenship instruction to immigrants. During this election, it came to light that Hermandad Nacional had registered some of its foreign nationals to vote. H.N. had a number of locations across the Southland of California. In Bob Dornan’s district, it was revealed that a significant number of illegal immigrants had voted, against Dornan. I don’t believe that number was proven to be in adequate numbers to have ousted Dornan, but he laws concerning tampered elections are such, that the House of Representatives could have called a special election, to remedy the situation. The Republican House refused to do so.
The conflict is this. Do you care about how elections are run in this nation? If you do, then you should have grave reservations about illegal immigrants being present in numbers significant enough to cause interference with our internal election process. Have a conversation with yourself. Do you care about our election process, or don’t you?
I think our founding documents are the best that any nation has devised. I respect our founding fathers. I am so proud of them for sacrificing their lives, fortunes, families, friends and futures, so that we might have all of these with the knowledge that our rights and sovereignty is secured by those founding documents they provided. How about you? Do you share my conviction on this point? Most conservatives would jump for the opportunity to respond in the affirmative. In our U.S. Constitution, Article IV, Section Four states that our federal government will protect the states against invasion.
Here’s the conflict. Three million illegal immigrants will cross our frontier with Mexico this year. In the next ten years the total will exceed that amount. Somewhere between 30 and 40 million illegal immigrants will occupy portions of our nation in the next ten years. These illegal immigrants will bear offspring in numbers that will come in between five and ten million, perhaps even more. Do you appreciate the men who risked all to give us our founding documents? Do you value those documents? Have a conversation with yourself. Do you still care about our U.S. Constitution and the men that had the foresight to give it to us?
In the interest of time, I’m going to touch on a number of other issues quickly. Are you against terrorism? Are you a firm believer in the phrase, “From Many, One” on our currency? Do you feel that we are one, when large segments of our populace can’t speak or write English? Do you value our healthcare system? Do you think it should remain viable for U.S. Citizens? Do you think Social Security is an important enough program, that the federal government should stop providing it to foreign nationals that haven’t worked a single day in our nation? Do you think people on the border with Mexico should have to place bars on their windows and doors, and be incarcerated as if in a prison due to hundreds of foreign nationals crossing their property day and night? Should we have criminals ferrying across unknowns into our nation in numbers so vast and uncontrollable that we cannot possibly protect ourselves from them?
These are meaty issues. They touch on the very core of what conservatives believe. Are you a law and order person, or do you support carve-outs for your pet issues? Do you value our founding documents, or is that likewise the consistency of Swiss cheese to you? Do you care about our election processes, wanting to keep them safe, or is that also an area where you support carve-outs?
I argue these points almost daily on this forum. It’s amazing to me the number of “conservatives” that are willing to completely ignore what they profess to believe, in order to sign off on some of the things they do these days. They fight me tooth and nail so that our border laws are not enforced, and so that we can change our laws so criminality will gain a holiday.
Two last points and I’ll wrap this up. Folks, those of you who state that you want illegals to return to Mexico to get their new work permits, could you please clarify a couple of points. We now have a massive number of illegal immigrants in this nation. The have families from Maine to California. It is not inconceivable that there are between five and eight million children in U.S. schools as I type this. Do you plan on these complete families returning to Mexico in respect for our laws, just to obtain a work permit? I didn’t think so.
As I said wrote a few moments ago, I spend a lot of time on this issue. I am challenged constantly. After spending hours with people disagreeing about every single idea that could stop the flow of illegal immigrants into our nation, they wind up angry as can be, if anyone dare call them open borders advocates. Let’s put this in terms they can understand.
If I say one thing that conflicts with the policies of our President, I am considered to be a Bush bashing hater of an extraordinary vile nature. As I said, this for one disagreement. Some of these very same people disagree with ten or twenty suggestions on a thread supporting our nation to get our borders under control. Still they claim to be against open borders, and become very insulted if it is stated that it appears otherwise.
Have that little discussion with yourself. Do the rock bottom conservative issues mean anything to you? If so, I am glad.
I cannot say 100% for sure what is in your hearts. All I can say for sure, is that at times it appears "Illegal Immigration Has Proven to Be a Divisive Issue for the Two of You."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1344254/posts
If we truly think business fosters business, the capitalist system works to float all boats, then why don’t our businesses open new franchises south of the border, instead of displacing American citizens north of it?
Both your articles are great. Too bad the first one was pulled before I had a chance to reply.
This idea of bringing the jobs to Mexico, instead of bringing up "guest workers" has merit. A couple of problems with this. One, is that the Mexican government(and other governments in South and Central America) is rotten and corrupt from the neck down. I'm sure there have been plenty of businesses who have envisioned expansion into Mexico (and points south), only to find that it would be next to impossible. Second, many illegals are from countries in South America. Mexico seems to guard her southern border quite well, and there is a lot of prejudice against those people. New industry and opportunities in Mexico, wouldn't help those folks get ahead in life.
"Mexico" doesn't want our help. The Mexicans who matter sit on the nations wealth, split between a handful of the ruling families. They want the peasants out of their country. This goes on in other countries, as well. The last thing they want is to empower the peasants with good jobs, and a future in their home country.
Don't get me wrong, personally I think it would be a wonderful idea to help our neighbors empower themselves in their own countries. As long as there is a wink and a nod toward illegals in the US, no one south of our borders has to change a thing. These amnesty and guest worker programs are not going to do what they say they will.
Thanks for the ping, HiJinx.
Aired 2/16/05
DOBBS: There are at least 100,000 illegal aliens in the United States who have been convicted of committing crimes in this country. There are immigration enforcement teams dedicated to finding them and deporting them.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An airport in Massachusetts, the last stop on American soil for 50 convicted immigrants from the Dominican Republic. Shackled, searched and surrounded by heavily armed law-enforcement officers, deportation is just minutes away.
JIM BROWN, U.S. IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Part of the national security mission is to remove any folks that don't belong in the United States out of the United States.
LOTHIAN: In a pre-flight brief...
BROWN: We're deal with some folks that are definitely high risk.
LOTHIAN: ... Chief Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jim Brown reads the rap sheet.
BROWN: Assaults with dangerous weapons. Assault and battery on a child under 14.
LOTHIAN: Some were fugitives, like 32-year-old Rafael Santana (ph), arrested in an early morning raid south of Boston last month. Authorities say the Dominican native was convicted on, among other things, assault and battery charges. He served time, but was dodging deportation orders.
Wearing the same yellow athletic suit, Santana (ph) shuffled on to the one-way flight to the Dominican Republic.
(on camera): More than 38,000 convicted immigrants were loaded on to government airplanes and deported last year, sent to not only the Dominican Republic, but Haiti, Jamaica and other destinations in South and Central America.
(voice-over): They are released on to the streets almost immediately with few exceptions.
MARC RAIMONDI, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: If there are warrants, if some of the people on this aircraft are wanted on Dominican charges, they may be taken into custody.
LOTHIAN: But even officials acknowledge some will attempt or succeed at reentering the U.S. illegally, despite the threat of tougher penalties.
BRUCE CHADBOURNE-FIELD, U.S. IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Any criminal that reenters after deportation most likely will be prosecuted federally.
LOTHIAN: Officials admit no system is perfect, but say this effort is critical in protecting America's streets and borders.
Dan Lothian, CNN, Santo Domingo.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: It's critical, but it's not enough. Much more needs to be done in order to protect our streets and our borders. The one flight that we just saw carried 50 convicted felons in this country illegally out of the country.
But there are an estimated 100,000 convicted illegal aliens here. Some put the number as high as 400,000. Just 18 teams of agents across the country are hunting those fugitives down.
And, by all accounts, many of the illegal aliens who are caught and deported come right back again across our porous "Broken Borders."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0502/16/ldt.01.html
Mexican unions cause alot of expense and problems, also.
NEIN! Vee must not haf zay reasoned discourse. Zat ist nut vat diss site ist for!
I'm sorry to see intentional mischief succeeded in having your previous thread pulled.
Thanks for posting it again for however long it lasts this time.
BTTT..........
Good Post......especially the *last* one......;o)
BTT!
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