Posted on 02/17/2005 1:53:34 AM PST by DoughtyOne
you wascally wacist you!!!!!!!!!!
What is most notable to me, is that only 8.3% of *freepers* approve of Bush's plan "as is or with minor changes."
I don't know if each and every one should have to be sent back. But I do know that as long as we don't stop most of the influx, or as long as we keep thinking we cannot send them back before they qualify or after they lose eligibility, this plan just misses the point.
So you've dropped the facade of only opposing "illegal" immigrants from whereever they might come.
What you have just said is that the problem is Mexicans, whether legal or not.
I can respect your position if you can rationally defend it, but please stop trying to hide behing "legal" and the Constitution and the other thinly veiled reasons for opposing Mexicans.
When the federal gov't comes up with negative numbers on ANYTHING... DOUBLE IT and pray that its only THAT bad.. because its probably worse still..
And what about the American citizens who work for those companies who would be out of jobs? What about the schools and hospitals and police departments that depend upon the taxes paid by those companies?
Instead of you lobbying to put other Americans out of work in order to reduce your exposure to Mexicans, why don't you take the personal responsibility to remove you own exposure by moving to someplace that doesn't have very many Mexicans. immigrants
First, illegal immigration happens for one reason only: money. But the problem is not Mexicans: it's a demand-side problem. The problem is that there are a lot of Americans who, for whatever reason, provide financial incentives to illegal immigrants. You can't blame a bunch of dirt-poor Mexicans for accepting money from Americans who are willing to give it to them.
In the first place, there are jobs here that are much higher paying than what's available in Mexico. And (here's what you're leaving out) it's a LOT cheaper for Americans to hire Mexicans than it is for them to hire Americans. I suppose we could call this "insourcing of labor." Now consider what happens if we somehow stop the flow of illegal immigrants for these jobs: what will happen to the Americans who hire them? The answer is: a lot of them will go out of business. One byproduct is that you will probably pay more for your food, and at the same time Americans will be importing a lot of things that used to be grown here.
The second "money" problem is that of government benefits. This is primarily a state problem. For example, California grants all sorts of benefits to illegals. Again, this is an American problem, not a Mexican one. Rather than yapping about border control, I would suggest that the solution is to be found within established political processes -- i.e., throw the bums out.
Next, your suggestions about the guest worker program are not well considered. The first thing a guest worker program does, is provide a means of tracing immigrants -- which is a huge step up from what we currently have. It also provides a means by which the American demand-side can be managed: it's lots easier to match up American employers to documented guest workers, than it is to attempt to track illegals.
Finally, your comments do not really offer a solution -- it's just a sort of extended complaint. What, precisely, do you suggest be done to a) find and deport the illegals who are already here; and b) stop additional illegals from crossing the border?
I think that, in either case, you're basically going to end up needing a very serious and extremely intrusive police and/or military response that affects not only the illegal immigrants, but also American citizens. Are you sure you're ready for that?
That's pure conjecture on your part based upon invalid assumptions and incorrect population statistics that no one else agrees with. Start with a source for your statement that there are 18 to 22 million illegal immigrants in the US today. Most people agree on 8 to 12 million.
I don't agree with DoughtyOne on this issue, as you know, but I read his initial message and don't see the personal attacks you're complaining about. Oh, they come soon enough in the replies, but his initial essay seems like a reasonable expression of an opinion that's sadly popular on FR.
What I've noticed is that Californians care about this issue, but Texans don't. This is because Texan welfare benefits are notably ungenerous, and so illegals tend to either work or return to Mexico. I believe California law should be changed so that illegals are dealt with the same way they are in Texas. That would solve the problem and enable this issue to basically vanish.
I think it's worth considering another issue. DoughtyOne says that we should set up businesses in Mexico, if we want to hire Mexican workers. Well, the reason we don't do this, is the same reason Mexicans come up here to work: The government down there is notoriously corrupt and incompetent. I've been to Mexico and seen more or less what it's like there. It's clearly not a good place outside of the tourist areas and the sections of the coast where the richest Mexicans hang out.
Heck, Mexico is better off geographically than we are, even in California, because of the more Carribean climate. Would I love to go to Mexico and enjoy that kind of climate instead of suffering through the awful rainy winter we did in LA? Of course. The only problem is that Mexico has a lousy government, and I'd own my ocean front home exactly as long as it would take for them to seize it. Namely, a few hours.
I don't think, unfortunately, that we are capable of fixing their government without a lot more pain and violence than we want. So in the end, people who want to be up here are coming here. These people wind up being customers of our stores and add vitality to our world. That's why I like them, and that's why I don't like all the "build a gigantic wall around the nation" proposals.
We're a nation of immigrants. To hate immigrants, as too many people here do, is to turn your back on history -- and our vitality as a nation is at stake.
D
Productive workers are not a "load", they are an asset. They have a multiplier effect that extends far beyond the taxes they and their employers pay.
Your particular state or city may have problems because of your local policies, but other parts of the country with large immigrant populations are thriving.
It could be because Bush hasn't presented a plan. When the time is appropriate in the next couple years he will present his legislative reform proposals and offer supporting reasons therefor at that time.
After you have seen his legislation then you can decide if you support it or not.
Bump for Truth
What's most notable to me is that you've put any weight on the FR poll numbers at all. If most people are like me (and I think they are), they probably avoid those polls with a vengeance.
Businesses were prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants. The cases were of the "open-and-shut" variety - as Poohbah has explained numerous times on some threads. There was just one little problem: No convictions.
The juries acquitted. In one case, the documents were forged on fax paper - but the jury acquitted in fifteen minutes. That was not a failure to prosecute.
The other thing I have a problem with - and maybe it was not clear early on - is the general tone. When he says, "Have that little discussion with yourself" and that we need to decide whether the "rock-botton conservative issues mean anything" to us, I got the notion that he's implying that those who disagree with him aren't really conservative. Therefore, I do need to stand by my post.
Well, if it were only one poll, or if it conflicted with what I observed elsewhere, including in these threads, I'd put less weight on it. But from what I've seen, it's right in line. Runs almost 10 to 1 at the very best.
And that's just here at FR.
I want to thank you for your very thoughtful post above, though. I just read it.
Proposal, plan, whatever. Semantics. Jim called it a plan. I doubt he was trying to give us a trick question.
Thanks for the ping HJ and I agree D1. I saved this thread to 3 1/2 floppy also. LOL!!
Well said.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.